Opinions on spiritual gifts

[trinityisunity]

I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.

I would appreciate other peoples' opinion on what they believe regarding the Spiritual Gifts. I do not want a debate on this just express your thoughts.Thanks.:help:

[Joykins]

My personal opinion is that it is foolish to try to place limits on what the Holy Spirit can do. Although perhaps which gifts the Holy Spirit will bestow can be guided by our openness to them...

[mythrainbow]

God gives us the same gifts He gave back then, He doesn't change and doesn't play favorites among those He loves.

God gives us the gifts we have because He knows us best. I once thought I could chose my gifts, or that there was "special" gift for me that I had to discover. But God soon showed me that I shouldn't be worrying about find my gift, because He can change His mind about which ones we have.

For me God had to bring me away from my search for spiritual gifts, because I was treating them almost as wages earned instead of a gift.

I also believe that Healing, prophecy, and those type of gifts are still very much alive, I think more in people who do not identify their gifts that way.

OK so it's obvious that I have a lot of opinoins....either that or just too much free time :)

[SwampFox86]

Gifts are still around.

I have a feeling this will take a turn towards Tongues at some point, so I'll go ahead and voice my opinion.

Most churches today have false tongues. They take scripture out of context and make it say what they want, and its based on feelings, not faith or doctrine.

[JPPT1974]

God gives us gifts to use and to not abuse
Sadly though you are very right
As those gifts are being abused for all
The wrong reasons and against God's good will for us!

[MbiaJc]

[quote=trinityisunity] I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.


Here is the spiritual body of Christ

THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST

MEMBER: Of the body of Christ, the first three are given by Christ Himself and all
are set in the church by GOD, each person has one or more.
Compare 1Corinthians 12:28 & Ephesians 4:11 which member of the body are you?
Apostles
Prophets
Teachers (evangelist, pastor and teacher) Compare 1Cor. 12:28 with Eph. 4:11
Miracles
Healings (medical remedies)
Helps
Governments (of Latin origin, to steer) (figuratively) directorship (in the church)
Diversities of tongues
OFFICE: The ability, the way the Spirit works through us (The work to be done). Each member can hold one, or more or all offices, but not likely.
Romans 12
Prophecy
Ministry
Teaching
Exhorting
Giving
Ruling
Mercy
MANIFESTATION: The way the Spirit works in us. The Spirit works in each member in one or more of these ways.
1Corinthians. 12:1-10
Wisdom
Knowledge
Faith (given by GOD)
Healing (medical remedies)
Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues

Eph. 4:11
There is only 3 member gifts here, Compare this with 1Cor. 12:28
Also there are only 4 ministries Gifts not 5

Members Gifts
Apostles
Prophets
Teacher which includes Evangelist, Sheppard and Teacher

Ministries
Shepherd and Teacher
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelist

The only 2 not mentioned here are Deacon and Elder\Bishop. The reason they are not mentioned here is they are given by the Church

Deacons: Are to be chosen paying close attention to biblical qualifications.

Elder\Bishop: Elder is the man Bishop is the office. These also should be appointed, paying close attention to biblical qualifications. The Elders are to be appointed to the office of Bishop and these would be the pastors. Each having equal authority, they would be the Under Sheppard’s of the church.
The only 2 not mentioned here are Deacon and Elder\Bishop. The reason they are not mentioned here is they are given by the Church Deacons: Are to be chosen paying close attention to biblical qualifications. Elder\Bishop: Elder is the man Bishop is the office. These also should be appointed, paying close attention to biblical qualifications. The Elders are to be appointed to the office of Bishop and these would be the pastors. Each having equal authority, they would be the Under Sheppard’s of the church. The Elders are the Elderly men in the Church not some young Preacher.

Exodus 17:8-16 is a picture of the body of Christ (the Church) in action.

Most Christians these days ignore these verses:
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
Have we reached these points yet? If not, Jesus is still giving them today.

[SwampFox86]

[quote] The Elders are the Elderly men in the Church not some young Preacher.

Again, 1 Timothy 4:12.

The Bible does not say you must be a certain age to be an elder/presbyter in a church.

A deacon and and Elder are not the same thing at all.

A deacon is a servant and were set up in the NT to feed the Widows and Orphans, so in Modern Churches the closest thing to a deacon would be the Kitchen staff.

An elder however are to be the ones who do the ministry of outreach and keeping families accountable. No age limit is set in the Bible on who can and cant be an elder. It is someone who is amture in the faith, not based on age. The Greek word traces closer to Presbyter, which is simply a spiritual leader in the church.

A "young Preacher" most definatly can be an Elder, if they couldnt we need to throw out Titus and the Books of Timothy from the Bible. We also dont need to read the Book of John or Revelation, as he would have been nearing old age in the 60's and 70's AD. He was a "young Preacher" in the beginning of the church.

[trinityisunity]

In our humble little country church, the elders are responsible for the spiritual side of the church and the deacons are responsible for the physical running of the church eg. maintainence, baptismal pool, rubbish , clean ups, etc. We have deaconesses who also help in the running of the church eg.kitchen, church cleaning, etc. We have elders ranging in age from low 40's to late 70's.


Getting back to the original post. Thankyou for your opinions and I hope there are more to come. I do not know how we got onto elders and deacons etc, (refer to OP.)

[arunma]

I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.

I would appreciate other peoples' opinion on what they believe regarding the Spiritual Gifts. I do not want a debate on this just express your thoughts.Thanks.:help:

I don't mean to trample on anyone else's beliefs. But personally, I find no Biblical evidence that the spiritual gifts ever passed away. It seems to me that even today, people can still prophesy and speak in tongues by the Holy Spirit, if he allows it. But let us also remember that things like love, charity, and exhorting are also spiritual gifts. We shouldn't see these gifts as less important than prophecy and tongues.

[JPPT1974]

In our humble little country church, the elders are responsible for the spiritual side of the church and the deacons are responsible for the physical running of the church eg. maintainence, baptismal pool, rubbish , clean ups, etc. We have deaconesses who also help in the running of the church eg.kitchen, church cleaning, etc. We have elders ranging in age from low 40's to late 70's.


Getting back to the original post. Thankyou for your opinions and I hope there are more to come. I do not know how we got onto elders and deacons etc, (refer to OP.)

I know what you mean as we are called to be
Servants of the Lord no matter how much or
Little even that the Lord wants us to do!

[DeaconDean]

If you look, in churches today, we still call Sunday school teachers don't we? Aren't teachers given a gift from the Holy Spirit? Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in use today. The Holy Spirit still gives these gifts. And as a matter of fact, only one gift that I know of has been cut off, and that is the gift of apostles. No one today has seen the crucifixion and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is a requirment of an apostle.

That's my two cents worth.

[PrincetonGuy]

The Bible is silent on the issue of the continuance of the spiritual gifts. As for the gift on tongues, we find mention of the operation of this gift as being a present reality in Christian literature throughout the history of the church. Counterfeit currencies exist along side of genuine currencies; I believe the same is true regarding spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues.

Irenaeus wrote c. 175-185 CE,
“In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms ‘spiritual,’ they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.” (Against Heresies 5:6:1)

Tertullian wrote c. 208 CE,
“But that we may now leave the subject of spiritual gifts, facts themselves will be enough to prove which of us acts rashly in claiming them for his God, and whether it is possible that they are opposed to our side, even if the Creator promised them for His Christ who is not yet revealed, as being destined only for the Jews, to have their operations in His time, in His Christ, and among His people. Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer -only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from amongst those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God.” (Against Marcion, Chapter VIII)

Eusebius (260-339) wrote,
“We hear many of the brethren in the church who have prophetic gifts, and who speak in all tongues through the Spirit, and who also bring to light the secret things of men for their benefit, and who expound the mysteries of God.” (The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius, Book V, chap. 7, p. 175)

Saint Augustine (354-430) wrote:
“We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them by the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

[PrincetonGuy]

Later in church history we find this phenomenon reported among the following:


Saint Hildengard in the twelfth century

The mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, the most notable of which was Saint Vincent Ferrer
In the first half of the sixteenth century we find it reported about the two Catholic saints, Saint Francis Xavier and Saint Louis Bertrand. In the bull by which Bertrand was canonized for his success in missionary work we read, “to facilitate the work of converting the natives, the apostle was miraculously endowed with the gift of tongues.”

In Sourer’s History of the Christian Church we read, “It is stated that, Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.”

The Jansenists in the early 1700’s

The Cevennes of the same period

In the Encyclopedia Britannica we read of tongues “among the converts of Wesley and Whitefield,” and that John Wesley wrote a protest against a Dr. Middleton who wrote “after the Apostolic time, there is not, in all history, one instance...of any person who had even exercised that gift (tongues).” Wesley replied, “Sir, your memory fails you again, it has been heard more than once no further off than the valleys of Dauphiny.”

The Society of Friends or Quakers in the seventeenth century,


“While waiting upon the Lord in silence, as often we did for many hours together, we received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were glad and our tongues loosed and our mouth opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave us utterance, and as His Spirit led us, which was poured down upon us, on sons and daughters, and the glory of the Father was revealed. And then began we to sing praise to the Lord God Almighty and to the Lamb forever.”
The Shakers in the eighteenth century,


“Some who attended confessed their sins aloud, crying for mercy; some went into a trance-like state in which they saw visions and received prophecies of Christ's imminent second coming. Others shouted and danced for joy because they believed that the day was at hand for wars to cease and God's kingdom on earth to begin.”

[PrincetonGuy]

The Irvingites in the early nineteenth century among whom speaking in tongues during church services was the norm.

In 1830 Mary Campbell was reported to have spoken in tongues and prophesized.

Among those to whom Dwight L. Moody ministered,


Dr. R. Boyd wrote in 1873, “When I got to the rooms of the Young Men's Christian Association in Victoria Hall, London, I found the meeting on fire: The young men were speaking in tongues, prophesying. What on earth did it mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon.”In 1875 R.B. Swan wrote that he and others spoke in tongues.

In 1879 we read of W.J. Walthall receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

In 1880 in Kara Kara, Armenia, a Pentecostal movement broke out with speaking in tongues.

Also in 1880 speaking in tongues was reported in Switzerland.

The following very ancient writings may be of interest to you:

The Shepherd of Hermas wrote, “Try the man who has the Divine Spirit by his life. First, he who has the Divine Spirit proceeding from above is meek, and peaceable, and humble, and refrains from, all iniquity and the vain desire of this world, and contents himself with fewer wants than those of other men, and when asked he makes no reply; nor does he speak privately, nor when man wishes the spirit to speak does the Holy Spirit speak, but it speaks only when God wishes it to speak. When, then, a man having the Divine Spirit comes into an assembly of righteous men who have faith in the Divine Spirit, and this assembly of men offers up prayer to God, then the angel of the prophetic Spirit, who is destined for him, fills the man; and the man being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaks to the multitude as the Lord wishes. Thus, then, will the Spirit of Divinity become manifest. Whatever power therefore comes from the Spirit of Divinity belongs to the Lord.” (Commandment 11)

Irenaeus wrote, “Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them on account of such miraculous interpositions. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others].” (Against Heresies 2:32:4)

[RajunCajun86]

I don't mean to trample on anyone else's beliefs. But personally, I find no Biblical evidence that the spiritual gifts ever passed away. It seems to me that even today, people can still prophesy and speak in tongues by the Holy Spirit, if he allows it. But let us also remember that things like love, charity, and exhorting are also spiritual gifts. We shouldn't see these gifts as less important than prophecy and tongues.well said, i must agree while some may claim that the Bible is silent on gifts silence does not mean "gone" there was silence from Malachi to Matthew but God was still at work, we are seeing these gifts manifested all around the world in countries where people are ripe for harvest we are seeing the Father speak to them and showing them signs and wonders that we (westerners) would not believe, God is still at work His ways never grow old and His methods never ineffective, He is the same as He was in the garden why would He not give gifts to those who will use them appropriately, He will only use these gifts when they are productive for the Kingdom...

P.S.
the gift of tongues MUST only be used if they are interpreted (1 Corinthians 14)

[MbiaJc]

[quote=MbiaJc]

Again, 1 Timothy 4:12.

The Bible does not say you must be a certain age to be an elder/presbyter in a church.

A deacon and and Elder are not the same thing at all.

A deacon is a servant and were set up in the NT to feed the Widows and Orphans, so in Modern Churches the closest thing to a deacon would be the Kitchen staff.

An elder however are to be the ones who do the ministry of outreach and keeping families accountable. No age limit is set in the Bible on who can and cant be an elder. It is someone who is amture in the faith, not based on age. The Greek word traces closer to Presbyter, which is simply a spiritual leader in the church.

A "young Preacher" most definatly can be an Elder, if they couldnt we need to throw out Titus and the Books of Timothy from the Bible. We also dont need to read the Book of John or Revelation, as he would have been nearing old age in the 60's and 70's AD. He was a "young Preacher" in the beginning of the church.

What do you think the word Elder means?
Not a novice, what does that mean?
In the Leviticus priesthood, of which the administration of the Church is patterned after, the levies started their priesthood at age 30, they served till age 50, and then they were considered an elder and could be appointed to the Sanhedrin.
No way can a young man be an Elder that is a no brainier. No where in Timothy or Titus does it say a young man is an Elder, on the contraire wise they say a pastor should be an Elder.

There is no where in the whole, not even a hint, of a one man pastoral authority or a young man holding the office of Bishop, no where.

You should study the bible for yourself and stay out of the commentaries.

Go to your Webster dictionary and look up the word Elder, it also means the same thing in Greek.

[MbiaJc]

Again, 1 Timothy 4:12.

Timothy was an apostle, not a pastor. Study the bible for yourself and stay out of the commentaries, and the Holy Spirit will teach you in all things.

[arunma]

No one today has seen the crucifixion and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is a requirment of an apostle.

It is? As far as I can tell from the Bible, not all of the Apostles were necessarily present. And while Paul was probably present, it doesn't seem that Barnabas was (he is also called an Apostle).

Not that I'm trying to say you're wrong, it's just that I've never heard the requirements of an Apostle stated this way. I've always assumed that an Apostle must only be personally commissioned by Christ. But I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning.

[dentonz]

If you look, in churches today, we still call Sunday school teachers don't we? Aren't teachers given a gift from the Holy Spirit? Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in use today. The Holy Spirit still gives these gifts. And as a matter of fact, only one gift that I know of has been cut off, and that is the gift of apostles. No one today has seen the crucifixion and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is a requirment of an apostle.

That's my two cents worth.

I don't want to turn this into something it's not, but was Paul an apostle? He said he was in the scriptures. He did not see the crucifixion or resurrection.

[arunma]

I don't want to turn this into something it's not, but was Paul an apostle? He said he was in the scriptures. He did not see the crucifixion or resurrection.

I'm fairly certain that he did. Based on the conversation that the two disciples had with Jesus on the road to Emmaus (when they still thought he was a stranger, they were surprised that he didn't know about the crucifixion), it seems that the crucifixion was a very well-known event. Paul seems to have been a lower echelon person the Temple at the time, since he held the priests' garments while they stoned Stephen. Since he was in Jerusalem, he would have most likely seen the crucifixion. Of course, what I think is infinitely more important, here, is that Paul saw the resurrected Christ.

The case that concerns me much more is that of Barnabas, who is also an Apostle. I'm not so sure that he was even from Jerusalem, but I could be wrong.

[SwampFox86]

Timothy was an apostle, not a pastor. Study the bible for yourself and stay out of the commentaries, and the Holy Spirit will teach you in all things.

Do not question whether or not I read the Bible. Timothy was a Pastor. He was the Pastor at the church at Ephesus.

Stay out of Commentaries? Maybe you should expand your thought process and stay out of the KJV.

On the Elders, it means not a Novice. SO being young automatically means you cant know about Theology. You have proved being old doesnt mean you know theology. So why does being young automatically mean you cant know theology?

The Levitcal Priesthood is not the example for church leadership, so dont refer to them anymore for Church leadership.

Again, just for the record, the term Novice has nothing to do with age.

[arunma]

Stay out of Commentaries? Maybe you should expand your thought process and stay out of the KJV.

Well, KJV isn't a bad translation by any means. I certainly don't think that it is the best translation, since it was written before the advent of textual criticism. That said, it is remarkably consistent with modern translations, and often gives us a different perspective on translation from the Hebrew and Greek.

For example, Ephesians 5:7 in the ESV suggests that we should not ever be friends with unbelievers. The KJV, however, suggests that we should not commit sins alongside unbelievers. I suppose this just goes to show that all human translators make errors. Translators were fallible in 1611, and they still are today.

But, one could always learn Greek and Hebrew.

[SwampFox86]

Well, KJV isn't a bad translation by any means. I certainly don't think that it is the best translation, since it was written before the advent of textual criticism. That said, it is remarkably consistent with modern translations, and often gives us a different perspective on translation from the Hebrew and Greek.

For example, Ephesians 5:7 in the ESV suggests that we should not ever be friends with unbelievers. The KJV, however, suggests that we should not commit sins alongside unbelievers. I suppose this just goes to show that all human translators make errors. Translators were fallible in 1611, and they still are today.

But, one could always learn Greek and Hebrew.

I'm in total agreement, I just get sick of people telling me I'm wrong becuase it doesnt fit with the KJV Only mindset.

[dentonz]

I'm fairly certain that he did. Based on the conversation that the two disciples had with Jesus on the road to Emmaus (when they still thought he was a stranger, they were surprised that he didn't know about the crucifixion), it seems that the crucifixion was a very well-known event. Paul seems to have been a lower echelon person the Temple at the time, since he held the priests' garments while they stoned Stephen. Since he was in Jerusalem, he would have most likely seen the crucifixion. Of course, what I think is infinitely more important, here, is that Paul saw the resurrected Christ.

The case that concerns me much more is that of Barnabas, who is also an Apostle. I'm not so sure that he was even from Jerusalem, but I could be wrong.

Okay we agree, Paul and Barnabus were Apostles.
Where does the Bible say that a requirement to be an Apostle was to see the death and resurrection of our Lord?

[mlqurgw]

MbiaJc, I have read your posts in several threads and you seem to want to ride a hobbyhorse against pastors and elders. I have come to believe you have been hurt by a pastor at some point in your life and you now must be against them. Please refrain from bringing your onesided view in every thread you post in.

[PrincetonGuy]

Well, KJV isn't a bad translation by any means. I certainly don't think that it is the best translation, since it was written before the advent of textual criticism. That said, it is remarkably consistent with modern translations, and often gives us a different perspective on translation from the Hebrew and Greek.

For example, Ephesians 5:7 in the ESV suggests that we should not ever be friends with unbelievers. The KJV, however, suggests that we should not commit sins alongside unbelievers. I suppose this just goes to show that all human translators make errors. Translators were fallible in 1611, and they still are today.

But, one could always learn Greek and Hebrew.

Eph. 5:5. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7. Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8. for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9. (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10. trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
12. for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. (NASB, 1995)

The Greek word συμμέτοχος translated in the KJV as “partakers” and in the ESV as “associate” is not found anywhere in ancient secular Greek literature and in the N.T. only here in Eph. 5:7 and in Eph. 3:6. Συμμέτοχος is the cognate adjective of the Greek verb συμμέτοχειν meaning “to share with.” The antecedent of “them” appears to me to be “sons of disobedience.” Verse 11, however, seems to stress that we are not to be partakers of the unfruitful deeds practiced by these people, but a very strong case could be made for having no association with them at all. The greater context of this passage suggests to some scholars that the focus here is on wayward “Christians” in the community.

Compare:

2 Cor. 6:14. Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15. Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16. Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17. "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18. "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
2 Cor. 7:1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (NASB, 1995)

[RajunCajun86]

MbiaJc, I have read your posts in several threads and you seem to want to ride a hobbyhorse against pastors and elders. I have come to believe you have been hurt by a pastor at some point in your life and you now must be against them. Please refrain from bringing your onesided view in every thread you post in.amen

[A Brother In Christ]

I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.

I would appreciate other peoples' opinion on what they believe regarding the Spiritual Gifts. I do not want a debate on this just express your thoughts.Thanks.:help:

a special spiritual Gift is given to every believer...1 peter 4:10

believer can still operated in a non gifted area

there is speaking gifts and service gifts 1 peter 4:11

some gift have been done away with 1 cor 13:8 prophecies, tongues, knowledge these are spiritual gifts for teach NT truths before the Bible was finnished
once fulfilled these gifts were not needed

can do more details ...but this is enough for right know
peace be in Christ were all christian are reckoned in the heavenlies and call perfect there...

[A Brother In Christ]

Okay we agree, Paul and Barnabus were Apostles.
Where does the Bible say that a requirement to be an Apostle was to see the death and resurrection of our Lord?

how about epaphroditus in phil 2:25,
andronicus and junia in romans 16:7

[PrincetonGuy]

1 Cor. 13:8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I have on occasion heard a Baptist pastor teach, based upon this passage of Scripture, that some of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues, passed away when the New Testament Canon was completed. Such pastors base this belief upon the belief that the “perfect” thing in v. 10 is the complete Bible containing 66 books. However, no where in the Bible do we find the concept of a Bible containing 66 books or any other number of books. What we do find is the Bible speaking of individual books and groups of books such as the Law and the Prophets. And, of course, we do not find in the Bible the concept of a New Testament in the sense of a collection of writings.

New Testament scholars, whether Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics, or members of any other denomination or Christian body, are virtually unanimous in agreeing that the “perfect” thing in verse 10 is the perfect state of affairs that will follow the Second Coming of Christ. This interpretation is nearly certain because in verse 12 Paul says, “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” Most certainly we will not see “face to face” or “know fully just as I also have been fully known” until the second coming of Christ.

Any interpretation of the Bible, in order for it to be the correct interpretation, MUST be in harmony with all of the facts, and the fact that the gift of tongues did NOT pass away with the completion of the New Testament Canon is one of the most documented facts in church history. Are there abuses of this gift? Most definitely, and this gift was greatly abused in the first century Corinthian church. Should we throw away the clean baby with the dirty bath water? Let’s treasure that which is given to us by God, and abhor that which is not of God.

There are four spiritual gifts that I would encourage each one of you to earnestly pray for,

Wisdom
Faith
Knowledge
Discernment

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

[PrincetonGuy]

Timothy was an apostle, not a pastor. Study the bible for yourself and stay out of the commentaries, and the Holy Spirit will teach you in all things.

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others…. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them; in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt.”

Charles H. Spurgeon, Commenting and Commentaries: Two Lectures Addressed to the students of The Pastors' College, Metropolitan Tabernacle, by C. H. Spurgeon, President. London: Passmore & Alabaster, 1890.

[RajunCajun86]

amen, amen, amen
way to go Spurgeon!

as far as Baptist preachers and "dead" gifts, there are many from different denomonations that will claim that there are certain "dead" gifts, this is not specifically a Baptist thing, gifts that are no longer used or given...i would say that these are not "dead" gifts but rather these gifts that are only given to places and people in which they will be productive to the Kingdom...one speaking in tongues (with the required interpretor) in downtown New York will only cause confrontation and division, while in eastern Africa the gift of tongues (with the required interpretor) may urge many to saving faith in Jesus Christ

[MbiaJc]

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others…. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them; in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt.”

Charles H. Spurgeon, Commenting and Commentaries: Two Lectures Addressed to the students of The Pastors' College, Metropolitan Tabernacle, by C. H. Spurgeon, President. London: Passmore & Alabaster, 1890.

Maybe you haven't read this scripture, seeing you study commentaries instead of the bible.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[MbiaJc]

Do not question whether or not I read the Bible. Timothy was a Pastor. He was the Pastor at the church at Ephesus.
Give scripture to prove he was, just one will do?

Stay out of Commentaries? Maybe you should expand your thought process and stay out of the KJV.
Heeeeeeeeeeee hey I need that laugh

On the Elders, it means not a Novice.
Not exactly, it means the men in the church over 50yr of age.

SO being young automatically means you cant know about Theology.
No one said that, but you.

You have proved being old doesnt mean you know theology.

Heeeeeeee Oh really just one scripture to prove your argment will be sufficent.

So why does being young automatically mean you cant know theology?
Again No one said thet, but you.

The Levitcal Priesthood is not the example for church leadership, so dont refer to them anymore for Church leadership.

Heeeeeeeeee this is funny also. Just shows why a young man should not be appointed to the office of bishop. To say the Church is not patterned after the Leviticus Priesthood is a no brainier.
BTW don't tell me what I can or can't refer to.

Again, just for the record, the term Novice has nothing to do with age
Heeeeeeeeeeeee oh yes it does. BYW it means young convert.

.

Please give just one scripture that proves Timothy or Titus were pastors, if you can?

[Phileoeklogos]

The Shakers in the eighteenth century,


“Some who attended confessed their sins aloud, crying for mercy; some went into a trance-like state in which they saw visions and received prophecies of Christ's imminent second coming. Others shouted and danced for joy because they believed that the day was at hand for wars to cease and God's kingdom on earth to begin.”


You might want to scratch the Shakers off your list, they were a cult. Finding groups thru out history that speak in tongues is fairly easy, finding groups that speak in tongues and aren't by some measure heretical, or even pagan, is not so easy.

[PrincetonGuy]

Maybe you haven't read this scripture, seeing you study commentaries instead of the bible.

Please do not misrepresent the facts on this Christian message board.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Please do not quote Scriptures out of their Biblical context in an attempt to make them appear to say to what they do NOT say.


P.S. Had you carefully and prayerfully read several of the most scholarly commentaries on 1 John you would know for yourself very important facts about the community to whom this epistle was written and the purpose and intended meaning of 1 John 5:27.


1 Cor:12:28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. (NASB, 1995)

God has NOT appointed in the church teachers for his personal amusement! He has appointed them in the Church to teach those in the church. Most unfortunately, however, there are today many prideful and arrogant men who despise those whom God has appointed and have deceived themselves into believing that the spirit that is teaching them is the Holy Spirit. The consequence of this today is that we have literally millions of interpretations of the Bible, the very large majority of which are absolutely ludicrous and have no basis of fact.

[PrincetonGuy]

You might want to scratch the Shakers off your list, they were a cult. Finding groups thru out history that speak in tongues is fairly easy, finding groups that speak in tongues and aren't by some measure heretical, or even pagan, is not so easy.

Scratching off one group with whom you personally disagree and calling them a “cult” does not change the fact the gift of tongues has been recorded throughout the history of the church as an active and present gift.

As a teacher I have learned that very many persons believe what they choose to believe regardless of the facts. Stephen was stoned by such people; indeed, Christ was crucified by such people. Mormonism, the Watchtower Society, and many other pseudo-Christian cults are composed of such people. Personally, I do not care what the truth is, as long as it is the truth, and I am willing to invest the time, money, energy, prayer, and study to find out what the truth is.

[ZiSunka]

I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.

I would appreciate other peoples' opinion on what they believe regarding the Spiritual Gifts. I do not want a debate on this just express your thoughts.Thanks.:help:

Spiritual gifts are still available today, according to God's will and for his reasons, not for entertainment or "proof" of salvation, as they are sometimes practiced. I have known people who were miraculously healed, I have known people who could suddenly speak languages they never studied when preaching the gospel in an unreached area. I have known people who could recite scripture then never read before. But standing up in a church and uttering nonsense because everyone else is doing it is NOT a manifestation of the gifts, nor is pushing people backwards and telling them they are healed.

The Lord gives the gifts to those who need them, not those who want a good TV special or who want a bigger car.

[A Brother In Christ]

1 Cor. 13:8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.


New Testament scholars, whether Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics, or members of any other denomination or Christian body, are virtually unanimous in agreeing that the “perfect” thing in verse 10 is the perfect state of affairs that will follow the Second Coming of Christ. This interpretation is nearly certain because in verse 12 Paul says, “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” Most certainly we will not see “face to face” or “know fully just as I also have been fully known” until the second coming of Christ.

Any interpretation of the Bible, in order for it to be the correct interpretation, MUST be in harmony with all of the facts, and the fact that the gift of tongues did NOT pass away with the completion of the New Testament Canon is one of the most documented facts in church history. Are there abuses of this gift? Most definitely, and this gift was greatly abused in the first century Corinthian church. Should we throw away the clean baby with the dirty bath water? Let’s treasure that which is given to us by God, and abhor that which is not of God.

There are four spiritual gifts that I would encourage each one of you to earnestly pray for,

Wisdom
Faith
Knowledge
Discernment

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

1st point

every time tongues is used unsaved Jews where present...luke 1:67-79, act 13:9-10

1 cor 1:22 jew seek a sign
1 cor 14:22 sign to unbelievers

in your church can everyone understand like in act 2:6 even though they were jews from different languages ?

2nd point

bible in the greek is alway in the female form...
Jesus in the greek is always in male form...

guess what "which is perfect is come" in what gender is this written in?

Neutur thing ...

so in the context of 1 cor 13:8-9 prophecy is the main topic ...so this is talking about final revelation will be concluded...

3rd point

2 cor 5:7 For we walk by faith not by sight.

hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

peace is in christ not the flesh

[MbiaJc]

Please do not misrepresent the facts on this Christian message board.



Please do not quote Scriptures out of their Biblical context in an attempt to make them appear to say to what they do NOT say.


P.S. Had you carefully and prayerfully read several of the most scholarly commentaries on 1 John you would know for yourself very important facts about the community to whom this epistle was written and the purpose and intended meaning of 1 John 5:27.


1 Cor:12:28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. (NASB, 1995)

God has NOT appointed in the church teachers for his personal amusement! He has appointed them in the Church to teach those in the church. Most unfortunately, however, there are today many prideful and arrogant men who despise those whom God has appointed and have deceived themselves into believing that the spirit that is teaching them is the Holy Spirit. The consequence of this today is that we have literally millions of interpretations of the Bible, the very large majority of which are absolutely ludicrous and have no basis of fact.

Misrepresent the facts! heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee That funny coming from you.

I will stick to studying my bible, and not commentaries, thank you.
And just who is misinterpreting and taking scripture out of context, is it anyone that disagrees with you?

Let me ask you one question, why did Jesus not go to the “School Of The Sons Of The Prophets” to pick his Apostles?

[daveleau]

I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.

I would appreciate other peoples' opinion on what they believe regarding the Spiritual Gifts. I do not want a debate on this just express your thoughts.Thanks.:help:


I agree with many of the posts here so far. My belief is that any of them can occur today. None are required for salvation, and many are not prevalent in some churches because we suppress them (ie tongues). I do believe tongues are possible, but it is against Scripture and a reinvention of the Corinthian problem to say they are a sign of salvation. Tongues will almost always be coupled with interpretation because of 1 Cor 12, 13, 14's speech on this subject. The only one I am not sure is available today, but which may be available in the future, is apostleship. This is a bigger issue than being an evangelist, and is the only Scriptural hierarchy of church leadership. Teaching (aka preaching), administration, helps, ministry, evangelism, tongues w/ interpretation except in special occasions, healing, miracles and prophesy are all available today. (NT prophesy does not mean future speech as well, but only speech that comes directly from God.)

I do think the misuse of gifts (fake faith healers, tongues for salvation) do diminish the gifts.

Gifts are given to believers to edify the church. Gifts are not limited to the miraculous (tongues, healings, prophesy, miracles), but also include evangelism, faith, administration, etc. Also note that each and every mention of the gifts of the spirit are flanked by passages on love.

I have written a (long) paper for my NT Intro class on spiritual gifts in the first century, defining what they are if that would help. It is my belief that the 1st Century church is our model, and anything in that church can happen today, if we let it by doing God's will in His church. Let me know and I'll post the link.

In Him,
Dave

[mlqurgw]

Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from “ Signs of the Apostles” by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800’s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913. I must question why those gifts were absent, especially in the manner in which they are practiced today, until that time. Was not the Spirit working before that time?

Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.

Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn’t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.

Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.

The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God’s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God’s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.

Ordinary Christians and gifts. After Pentecost every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.

This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bring fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.

Baptism in the Spirit is clearly shown to have taken place on the day of Pentecost.
Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
I do not find anywhere where there is a second work called a baptism in the Spirit. There are instances of fillings accompanied by the manifestations but only one baptism.

Speaking in tongues is only mentioned in Acts and 1Cor. If they were so important I believe they would have been spoken of in the other Epistles. The book of Romans was written after 1Cor. and the only gift repeated is prophesy, no mention of tongues.

The context of 1Cor. 12,13,14 is spiritual things not spiritual gifts. 1Cor. 12:1 does not have the word gift in it, it is another greek word altogether. Chapters 12&13 are concerned with divisions in the body, Some thinking they were higher in the body because of gifts. 14 merely teaches the proper use of tongues as opposed to prophesy in the Corinthian church not that they were to continue after the completed canon of Scripture.

These gifts were for a sign to unbelievers that they were speaking by God, that is , His word. I addressed this already.

As for 1Cor. 13:10 I do not believe that Paul is speaking of the completed canon of Scripture nor do I believe he was speaking of Christ, if he were he would have said Christ I believe. I am not sure what he is speaking of but I do think that it is possible that it is when we are glorified. Neither is he foretelling when the gifts will cease but only that they are temporary.

It seems clear to me that the book of Acts is a narration of the early Church and what happened to teach us how God established His Church in the world. It was not meant to teach doctrine nor should we learn doctrine from it exclusively. It should also be kept in mind that Paul wasn’t commending the Corinthians for their use of gifts but correcting them.

Now we have the complete inscripturated Word of God. The Apostles have all died and there are no more Apostles in the sense of those who were given special gifts and the ability to impart those gifts to men. I do believe it is clear from 1Cor. 13:11 that Paul is teaching that these things were for the establishing of the early Church. Modern day prophets claim to have new revelation from God and this denies that the Scripture are enough. I believe that Peter taught us that the Scriptures are mor to be believed than even our eyes or our experience.
2Pe 1:18 And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.

Also God himself tells us that He has magnified His word even above His name.
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth's sake; for You have magnified Your Word above all Your name.

[daveleau]

Do you think this about all the gifts, or just the ones we see as miraculous?

[mlqurgw]

Do you think this about all the gifts, or just the ones we see as miraculous?Certainly all believers are given gifts. According to Eph. 4 faithful pastors are a gift from Christ. Those that were for the establishing of the visible church, though, passed when the Apostles died. That isn't saying God can't do those things any longer but that there usefulness has passed. We now have the Scripture and by the Spirit understanding in them. So yes I would say that those gifts that we consider miraculous are no longer needed. If a person claims to have a miraculous gift he had better speak new revelation. Which, of course, would mean that the Scriptures aren't complete and enough.

[DeaconDean]

I don't want to turn this into something it's not, but was Paul an apostle? He said he was in the scriptures. He did not see the crucifixion or resurrection.

Sorry it took so long to answer but here is Pauls own testimony:

"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God," -Rom. 1:1

Yes Paul was called to be an apostle. But Paul also testifies that:

"And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time." -1 Cor. 15:4-8

Paul said he was an apostle. (Fact)
Paul testifies that the last person to see Jesus was him. (This was written before John's revelation from Jesus)
And that he was an apostle who was "one born out of due time." Meaning that although he did not see the resurrection, his calling came from Jesus himself. (See Acts 9)

[RajunCajun86]

Certainly all believers are given gifts. According to Eph. 4 faithful pastors are a gift from Christ. Those that were for the establishing of the visible church, though, passed when the Apostles died. That isn't saying God can't do those things any longer but that there usefulness has passed. We now have the Scripture and by the Spirit understanding in them. So yes I would say that those gifts that we consider miraculous are no longer needed. If a person claims to have a miraculous gift he had better speak new revelation. Which, of course, would mean that the Scriptures aren't complete and enough.i am not looking to argue with you, there are those who are fulfilling those duties within this thread, but i would say that as one who is deeply involved in mission work around the world more specifically in places were the gospel and it's followers have not yet been, that we are hearing accounts and seeing these NT gifts and miracles made manifest, we are hearing of those being raised from the dead as new followers prayed to their new God, we are constantly seeing those speak in a language that they have never spoken before and a translator step aside because the speaker was using the native tongue, we see mirculous healing even here in the states that through the power of prayer ones are being healed...with the exception of speaking in a new language, most of the miracles we see are not administered at the hand of a human but rather through the power of prayer, prayer is our weapon and our gift, it is our direct line to tap into the "gifts" and the "power" of Jesus Christ, we have people who have walked for days seeking help because of a dream that they had, God even still uses visions...once again it is fairly clear that God is using prayer to facilitate His miracles and power rather than giving it to an individual as He once did
so what i would say in response to mlqurgw is that these have not passed and are still usefull but most of us live where these wonders will only cause confrontation and division, but there are places where many are illiterate and are unable to read the Word of God so He is using these ways to reach them

[Imblessed]

I agree with many of the posts here so far. My belief is that any of them can occur today. None are required for salvation, and many are not prevalent in some churches because we suppress them (ie tongues). I do believe tongues are possible, but it is against Scripture and a reinvention of the Corinthian problem to say they are a sign of salvation. Tongues will almost always be coupled with interpretation because of 1 Cor 12, 13, 14's speech on this subject. The only one I am not sure is available today, but which may be available in the future, is apostleship. This is a bigger issue than being an evangelist, and is the only Scriptural hierarchy of church leadership. Teaching (aka preaching), administration, helps, ministry, evangelism, tongues w/ interpretation except in special occasions, healing, miracles and prophesy are all available today. (NT prophesy does not mean future speech as well, but only speech that comes directly from God.)

I do think the misuse of gifts (fake faith healers, tongues for salvation) do diminish the gifts.

Gifts are given to believers to edify the church. Gifts are not limited to the miraculous (tongues, healings, prophesy, miracles), but also include evangelism, faith, administration, etc. Also note that each and every mention of the gifts of the spirit are flanked by passages on love.



In Him,
Dave

Dave, I think I agree with everything you posted. I was going to write my own thoughts, but yours sound much better than mine would! :)

[A Brother In Christ]

1st point

every time tongues is used unsaved Jews where present...luke 1:67-79, act 13:9-10

1 cor 1:22 jew seek a sign
1 cor 14:22 sign to unbelievers

in your church can everyone understand like in act 2:6 even though they were jews from different languages ?

2nd point

bible in the greek is alway in the female form...
Jesus in the greek is always in male form...

guess what "which is perfect is come" in what gender is this written in?

Neutur thing ...

so in the context of 1 cor 13:8-9 prophecy is the main topic ...so this is talking about final revelation will be concluded...

3rd point

2 cor 5:7 For we walk by faith not by sight.

hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

peace is in christ not the flesh

[JPPT1974]

Very good point A Brother in Christ
Point well-taken!!

[Phileoeklogos]

Scratching off one group with whom you personally disagree and calling them a “cult” does not change the fact the gift of tongues has been recorded throughout the history of the church as an active and present gift.

As a teacher I have learned that very many persons believe what they choose to believe regardless of the facts. Stephen was stoned by such people; indeed, Christ was crucified by such people. Mormonism, the Watchtower Society, and many other pseudo-Christian cults are composed of such people. Personally, I do not care what the truth is, as long as it is the truth, and I am willing to invest the time, money, energy, prayer, and study to find out what the truth is.


If that's the case, then you might want to check your truth on the Shakers, God being a Male/Female Duality and "Mother" Ann Lee being the second coming of Christ, is enough for me to disagree with them, maybe that's not enough for you,

As for the rest of your reply, sounds like you're throwing a few stones yourself....

[PrincetonGuy]

If that's the case, then you might want to check your truth on the Shakers, God being a Male/Female Duality and "Mother" Ann Lee being the second coming of Christ, is enough for me to disagree with them, maybe that's not enough for you,

As for the rest of your reply, sounds like you're throwing a few stones yourself....

Scratching off one group with whom you personally disagree and calling them a “cult” does not change the fact that the gift of tongues has been recorded throughout the history of the church as an active and present gift.

There is no such thing as “[my] truth.” Truth is truth where ever it may be found and by whomever it may be expressed. Disliking the truth and arguing against the truth does not change the incontrovertible fact that the truth is the truth.

[A Brother In Christ]

does not change the fact that the gift of tongues has been recorded throughout the history of the church as an active and present gift.


so what tongues group do you copy...act 2 or 1 cor

[ZiSunka]

Scratching off one group with whom you personally disagree and calling them a “cult” does not change the fact that the gift of tongues has been recorded throughout the history of the church as an active and present gift.



I question this. What do you have to support this statement that "tongues" the way they are practiced now have existed throughout the history of the church as an active gift?

[Hisbygrace]

I believe that God still gives us the Spiritual Gifts that He gave to the disciples long ago. And that the Holy Spirit teaches us how to use them.

[JPPT1974]

We need to be taught our spiritual gifts
In order how to use them!

[A Brother In Christ]

We need to be taught our spiritual gifts
In order how to use them!

there is a diversity of gifts but we only get one gift for the body per person except apostles in the beginning of the church

diversities... 1 cor 12:4
singular... 1 peter 4:10 a gift

[PrincetonGuy]

there is a diversity of gifts but we only get one gift for the body per person except apostles in the beginning of the church

diversities... 1 cor 12:4
singular... 1 peter 4:10 a gift

It appears to me that you have taken one verse out of context and read into it your own personal theology when, in fact, the Scriptures themselves refute your theology:

1 Cor. 12:30. All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. (NASB, 1995)

Paul is not writing to first century apostles; Paul is writing to everyday Joe Christians and he expressly tells them to earnestly desire the greater gifts, plural.

1 Pet. 4:10. As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. (NASB, 1995)

All of my neighbors own a car, and many of them own more than one. Each one has received a gift, and many of them have received more than one.

[A Brother In Christ]

It appears to me that you have taken one verse out of context and read into it your own personal theology when, in fact, the Scriptures themselves refute your theology:

1 Cor. 12:30. All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
In the greek after every statement with a question mark is an understood NO .

31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. (NASB, 1995)
Desire what God has given you... not someone elses..
[QUOTE]

Paul is not writing to first century apostles; Paul is writing to everyday Joe Christians and he expressly tells them to earnestly desire the greater gifts, plural.

1 Pet. 4:10. As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. (NASB, 1995)]a is singular not plural[/[/B]QUOTE]

All of my neighbors own a car, and many of them own more than one. Each one has received a gift, and many of them have received more than one.


talk about putting in your own theology

1 peter 4:10 was really bad...

[PrincetonGuy]

:scratch:

[TheUltimateWarrior]

Timothy was an apostle, not a pastor. Study the bible for yourself and stay out of the commentaries, and the Holy Spirit will teach you in all things.

Actually sir, Timothy was a pastor. He pastored the Church(es) at Ephesus. Thats why 1&2 Timothy along with Titus are called the Pastoral Epistles, they were written to pastors.

[JPPT1974]

Hey that is indeed an interesting thought!:thumbsup:

[Lisa0315]

I would like to hear other Baptists' point of view on the spiritual gifts. Whether they died out with the death of the Apostles or whether they are still with us today.

I personally believe that they are all still available for distribution by the Holy Spirit to us today. The church world wide is still building so are not the Gifts still required? I grew up in a charasmatic Baptist Church which all of the gifts were displayed, not every Sunday service but occasionally. I am now part of a Baptist Church that believes that all the gifts are in the past. The church I am attending now is more of a traditional type, allthough in the last few years alot of younger people have been coming into it, and it is having a slightly more contempory style second service.

I would appreciate other peoples' opinion on what they believe regarding the Spiritual Gifts. I do not want a debate on this just express your thoughts.Thanks.:help:

Paul said that the miraculous gifts would pass away, and that only three would abide with the church. Now, these gifts ARE supposed to return at the end of the age which I think we are in. However, I think that it is more appropriate that these gifts will reappear during the tribulation.

To really understand it, I think you have to look at what conditions were when these miraculous gifts abounded.

First, there was great tribulation. Second, there was no written gospel. Third, the church was just beginning and the apostles and the early church were given gifts in lieu of the Bible. When the Bible came, there was no need for prophecy (future telling) and speaking in tongues. Finally, I do not believe that speaking in tongues during the apostolic age was EVER like it is today.

Looking at charasmatic churches today, you find a great deal of excitement but not a lot of substance. I have a lot of friends who attend charasmatic churches. When you question them, they speak of a lot of emotional "praise and worship" services. When you ask how many people got saved, well, you would really be surprised at the answer. One of them told me that lots got saved. How? Well, after quite an eventful and dramatic service, the preacher asked how many people wanted to join the church. He called them all down to the front and asked them if they believed in Jesus Christ. That was it. No drawing of the Holy Spirit and no repentance. They joined the church and publicly said they believed in Jesus Christ. All I can say to that is, even demons believe...and tremble. Something is not quite right here.

There are many ways to draw a crowd and enlarge a church. That is the broad road. The narrow road, though, the one that leads to salvation is not as exciting, not as dramatic, and certainly not as easy as becoming a member of that exciting church. The path of a true believer consists of a lot of heartache. Praise and worship becomes a quieter more humble peace and comfort. Then, we shout with joy when God delivers us. Then, we are tested and tried by fire again. It is just not all wonder and glory every single moment, and it seems like some of these churches are more like three ring circuses than places to worship Holy God.

Don't get me wrong. We have had services in our church in which our pastor did not even get to preach. People became so overwhelmed with joy and praise to God that we couldn't do anything except hug each other, cry, and praise God. Those are awesome services, but the preaching of God's Word must have a proper place.

Lisa