question about the life of the world to come

[Joykins]

:wave:

I have a question about Messianic beliefs about the afterlife. I've done a bit of googling, and come up with a whole slew of Jewish rabbinical opinions about the resurrection, the world to come, and the messianic era.

My question is, what are the range of beliefs in Messianic Judaism about the afterlife and the New Heaven and New Earth, and how these compare / contrast with current Jewish beliefs and other Christian beliefs.

Small question I know ;) . Links are welcome :)

Thanks!

Joy

[BarbB]

My beliefs about the life of the world to come have not changed. Well, except to become more intense perhaps. I don't know what Jewish beliefs are. Hopefully some of our Jewish friends will stop by and post! :wave:

[Andyman_1970]

I believe that by the way we live we can experience the “world to come” olam haba right here and right now………..the whole “Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”.

I affirm the second coming of the Messiah, at which the dead will be resurrected and earth will be reconciled back to it’s pre Genesis 3 condition. I do not believe in the rapture or any of those other popular notions of how the world will end as they have very little if any substantiation in 1st century Judaism.

Anyway……….that’s just my 2 shekels worth.

[sabar]

I believe that by the way we live we can experience the “world to come” olam haba right here and right now………..the whole “Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”.

I affirm the second coming of the Messiah, at which the dead will be resurrected and earth will be reconciled back to it’s pre Genesis 3 condition. I do not believe in the rapture or any of those other popular notions of how the world will end as they have very little if any substantiation in 1st century Judaism.

Anyway……….that’s just my 2 shekels worth.
I agree totally with what you have said. It is quite plain throughout Scripture that Yeshua will bring about, by his Second Coming, a new world order and then a restored to Eden earth. I had a Jewish friend once who did not have any real views on a life to come.

[Joykins]

I believe that by the way we live we can experience the “world to come” olam haba right here and right now………..the whole “Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”.

Do you think olam haba is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven / Kingdom of God that Jesus preached, or are the concepts similar but different?

I affirm the second coming of the Messiah, at which the dead will be resurrected and earth will be reconciled back to it’s pre Genesis 3 condition. I do not believe in the rapture or any of those other popular notions of how the world will end as they have very little if any substantiation in 1st century Judaism.

Anyway……….that’s just my 2 shekels worth.

I tend to agree. Thanks :)

[Andyman_1970]

Do you think olam haba is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven / Kingdom of God that Jesus preached, or are the concepts similar but different?


The Kingdom of God/Heaven (they are the same) is anywhere where things are as God intends them to be, whether it be in the Heavenly realms where God dwells, or on earth by the way we live. I would say there is no difference between the two.

[sabar]

The Kingdom of God/Heaven (they are the same) is anywhere where things are as God intends them to be, whether it be in the Heavenly realms where God dwells, or on earth by the way we live. I would say there is no difference between the two.
I agree with this, the two are interchageable. Yeshua once told his disciples that the 'Kingdom of G-d/heaven was within them.' (Lukas 17:21) The word here for 'within' is 'entos' and can also mean 'among.' Yeshua was saying that he, Messiah represented G-d's Kingdom and he was among them. So the Kingdom of G-d can also mean the Kingdom of heaven. Of course when Yeshua arrives, then heaven will literally be on earth!

[visionary]

I think Andy is on the right track... it will all come with the Lord's second coming. But first this world has to reach its abomination of desolation where this planet is completely ruined like the abysis that the son of perdition came from. Every sign of the creator's touch has been totally marred, and insanity is in complete reign.

[BarbB]

It's getting close, vis. Not a day goes by anymore that I don't run into my house and cry out "How much longer, O L-rd, are you going to tolerate this -----(enter whatever horror was magnified today) -----?"

p.s. A tsunami warning has been issued for Hawaii and Tonga. :eek:

[Andyman_1970]

I was under the impression that the Hebraic understanding of the Messiah coming was the more and more creation was reconciled back to how God intended (teshuva) it would hasten Messiah’s coming. If this is the case, I don’t think the Messiah’s coming is imminent as creation is far from how God intends it to be (global warming anyone?).

[BarbB]

I was under the impression that the Hebraic understanding of the Messiah coming was the more and more creation was reconciled back to how God intended (teshuva) it would hasten Messiah’s coming. If this is the case, I don’t think the Messiah’s coming is imminent as creation is far from how God intends it to be (global warming anyone?).

My impression's from what I read in Daniel, Isaiah, Revelation. I don't find any contradiction. And I wouldn't count on the Jews getting something like this correct. Most don't read any part of the Bible. :( And the business of Messiah not coming until creation is reconciled sounds very very Presbyterian. :D

Creation cannot be reconciled until Messiah returns.

[Shimshon]

When Messiah returns it will be 'complete'. At the moment it is hear and being set-up. By God through the Spirit Yeshua has given. In the hearts of his children the Kingdom of God reigns. We are first fruits of the final harvest of souls.


Matthew 3:1-6 1 It was during those days thatYochanan the Immerser arrived in the desert ofY'hudah and began proclaiming the message, 2 "Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!"
Mt 4:17 From that time on, Yeshua began proclaiming, "Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!"


25 However, knowing what they were thinking, Yeshua said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not survive. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; so how can his kingdom survive? 27 Besides, if I drive out demons by Ba`al-Zibbul, by whom do your people drive them out? So, they will be your judges! 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you!

Luke 17:20 The P'rushim asked Yeshua when the Kingdom of God would come. "The Kingdom of God," he answered, "does not come with visible signs; 21 nor will people be able to say, `Look! Here it is!' or, `Over there!' Because, you see, the Kingdom of God is among you."



Mark 4:11 He answered them, "To you the secret of the Kingdom of God has been given; but to those outside, everything is in parables,
2 Corinthians 5:16-21 16 So from now on, we do not look at anyone from a worldly viewpoint. Even if we once regarded the Messiah from a worldly viewpoint, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation - the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! 18 And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, 19 which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us. What we do is appeal on behalf of the Messiah, "Be reconciled to God! 21 God made this sinless man be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we might fully share in God's righteousness." Messiah in us, our hope of Glory. The Kingdom has come because God now lives and reigns in the hearts of his children. This is the Good News and the message from Yeshua and his followers. We have been reconciled to God through the work Yeshua did. And he gives us the same work he did. To reconcile the world to Him. Through Yeshua and the Spirit he gave us to accomplish the Works of God. Our work in the Kingdom is to proclaim the message commanded Yeshua by God. We are One, He in us, and We in God. Messiah in us, our hope of glory.

The Kingdom has come upon you, if God lives in your heart. You have been reconciled and your commissioned to bring this message of reconciliation (Good News) to the world. Through the power of the Spirit given us.

This is our work according to God, Messiah and the Apostles.

[Talmidah]

And I wouldn't count on the Jews getting something like this correct. Most don't read any part of the Bible.

Really? Wow.

[Andyman_1970]

And I wouldn't count on the Jews getting something like this correct.

No offense, but that's a pretty ironic statement coming from a Messianic.

And the business of Messiah not coming until creation is reconciled sounds very very Presbyterian. :D

I don't think rabbi Lawrence Kushner is a Prebyterian.......LOL. He wrote in his book "Jewish spirituality for Christians that teshuva hastens the coming of the Messiah.

Creation cannot be reconciled until Messiah returns.

We can reconcil it in small ways..........that whole "Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" deal.

[BarbB]

Really? Wow.

As soon as I wrote that, I knew that someone like you who reads scripture was going to question my post. :sigh: Most of the Jews I know are Reformed or Conservative. A child in an evangelical sunday school honestly knows more about scripture than they do. I don't know any Orthodox Jews - I would think that they do know scripture. That's all. :sorry:

[BarbB]

No offense, but that's a pretty ironic statement coming from a Messianic.



I don't think rabbi Lawrence Kushner is a Prebyterian.......LOL. He wrote in his book "Jewish spirituality for Christians that teshuva hastens the coming of the Messiah.



We can reconcil it in small ways..........that whole "Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" deal.

I am not a Messianic Jew - I am a Messianic Gentile believer. I am learning about celebrating the feasts and festivals, the Sabbath, etc. I am not learning to be a Jew. :sorry:

Definitely G-d's will be done on earth and it will whether we "get it right" or not. :)

I know that Jews, some of them at least, believe that Messiah will return when we have made the earth ready for him - I simply disagree - That's what most mainline protestant denominations believe. I'm no longer a mainline protestant and I am not amillennial. I believe that Yeshua will return at the end of the tribulation at the Day of the Lord, clean up the mess we made, rule and reign from Jerusalem where we will all go to celebrate the feasts.

[Andyman_1970]

A child in an evangelical sunday school honestly knows more about scripture than they do.

Considering what they teach in most evangelical Sunday School's (I myself am a Sunday School teacher) and the doctrines they teach that are contrary to the tradition that Jesus came from and practiced I would disagree. Not to mention that many Jews have the Hebrew Scriptures memorized, which demonstrates a level of passion for the Text we in Western evangelical Christianity miss the mark on.

[Andyman_1970]

I know that Jews, some of them at least, believe that Messiah will return when we have made the earth ready for him - I simply disagree - That's what most mainline protestant denominations believe. I'm no longer a mainline protestant and I am not amillennial. I believe that Yeshua will return at the end of the tribulation at the Day of the Lord, clean up the mess we made, rule and reign from Jerusalem where we will all go to celebrate the feasts.

And I believe that in the Messiah God set into motion the process to reconcile creation back to how He intended it, which we are to take part in. The Western/Greek understanding of creation is getting worse and worse post Jesus is contrary to the tradition Jesus came from (once again the irony here is interesting to say the least) rather than the Hebraic understanding that our job is to partner with God to reconcile His creation back to How He intends it to be.

[BarbB]

Considering what they teach in most evangelical Sunday School's (I myself am a Sunday School teacher) and the doctrines they teach that are contrary to the tradition that Jesus came from and practiced I would disagree. Not to mention that many Jews have the Hebrew Scriptures memorized, which demonstrates a level of passion for the Text we in Western evangelical Christianity miss the mark on.

Interesting. I assume you're speaking of the Orthodox Jews which I believe I said I didn't know much about. :)

Do you read the Parasha every week? Do you read the comments of the non-Orthodox Jewish Rabbis every week? I do on the internet. They comment on each other's comments - not on the reading itself. It's as fluffy as anything I ever heard in church. MJ Rabbi's otoh seem to understand that all scripture points to Yeshua and supply meat, not irrelevant milk.

Thanks for the info. :wave:

[BarbB]

And I believe that in the Messiah God set into motion the process to reconcile creation back to how He intended it, which we are to take part in. The Western/Greek understanding of creation is getting worse and worse post Jesus is contrary to the tradition Jesus came from (once again the irony here is interesting to say the least) rather than the Hebraic understanding that our job is to partner with God to reconcile His creation back to How He intends it to be.

Good luck with that theology, Andyman. Like I said, I'm not trying to be a Jew. Not that I don't agree that we should live to become more like Christ. Just that I don't think we can do much with the world except in our own small patch. Messiah's never going to come at that rate.

Guess I should explain that I believe in a 6000 year calendar and we're about ready for year 6001. :wave:

[Andyman_1970]

Just that I don't think we can do much with the world except in our own small patch.

Not picking on you specifically Barb, but it's this attitude IMO that is one of the reasons Christianity has not made more of an impact.

Messiah's never going to come at that rate.

That's assuming God is on our timing, or the timing we think we understand........


Guess I should explain that I believe in a 6000 year calendar and we're about ready for year 6001. :wave:

Interesting, this is a popular concept among most evangelcials as well.

[visionary]

Not picking on you specifically Barb, but it's this attitude IMO that is one of the reasons Christianity has not made more of an impact.



That's assuming God is on our timing, or the timing we think we understand........




Interesting, this is a popular concept among most evangelcials as well.what is yours?

[Andyman_1970]

I don't really have one........I don't think the point of the Creation account is to give us a literal timeline as much as it is to declare that God is Lord over all Creation as He is the Creator God. The Hebraic mindset rarely sees this as literal as well.

[Joykins]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate :(

Anyway, to summarize, there are several points of view I have noticed:

1. Things go to h_ll in a handbasket, then the second coming, <possibly insert millennium *here*?>, and then the life of the world to come starts.

Or, roughly, something similar to premillienialism.

2. The Kingdom of God is within us, now, as we reconcile ourselves and creation to what it ought to be; the fulfillment of all this will be at the second coming when God renews Heaven and Earth.

Or roughly, something similar to postmillenialism.

Is this an accurate survey?

Isaiah 55:1

[Andyman_1970]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate :(

Anyway, to summarize, there are several points of view I have noticed:

1. Things go to h_ll in a handbasket, then the second coming, <possibly insert millennium *here*?>, and then the life of the world to come starts.

Or, roughly, something similar to premillienialism.]

Correct, this is the "normal" evangelical/Western/Greek understanding of creation and end times.

2. The Kingdom of God is within us, now, as we reconcile ourselves and creation to what it ought to be; the fulfillment of all this will be at the second coming when God renews Heaven and Earth.

Or roughly, something similar to postmillenialism.

Is this an accurate survey?


This is the Hebraic/Eastern understanding of creation and how God will reconcile it.

[shmuel]

Early believers were premillenial. One can see this in the writings of Justin and Irenaeus, for example. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who learned from John the apostle. When Christianity became the religion of the Roman empire the desire for a coming kingdom was lost. The kingdom was viewed as being now. This view can be seen in Augustine's writings. Amillenialism and postmillenialism became the dominate views in the church. In the 19th century the increased study of prophecy with the literal interpretation of the books of Daniel and Revelation, in particular, produced a new interest in premillenialism. Most of the church, i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and many protestatnt denominations hold positions that are contrary to premillenialism. They even regard it as heresy. Groups that are premillenial tend to be pro-Israel and Judeophilic.

Among the Messianic Jewish teachers that I know, all hold a position that can be classified as premillenial.

[Andyman_1970]

I would argue that the concept of shalom and olam habba have an aspect of the Kingdom of God/Heaven being present now.......both are Judaic in origin and thus would have been held by Jesus (that whole Lord's prayer for example again) and His followers.

[visionary]

I would argue that the concept of shalom and olam habba have an aspect of the Kingdom of God/Heaven being present now.......both are Judaic in origin and thus would have been held by Jesus (that whole Lord's prayer for example again) and His followers....thy kingdom COME... thy WILL be done...On EARTH as it is in HEAVEN... sounds futuristic to me.

[Andyman_1970]

Sounds to me like He's asking for it to come right then. The idea that the Kingdom of Heaven is some future reality is a Greek/Western one, rather than the Judaic idea that the Kingdom of Heaven is present where ever things are as God intends them to be........like when someone performs t'shuva, or when His covenant people are obedient, etc.

[visionary]

So maybe it is both... here now in the individual and one day when the Messianic kingdom comes for earth as it is in heaven.

[Andyman_1970]

So maybe it is both... here now in the individual and one day when the Messianic kingdom comes for earth as it is in heaven.

I would agree. The Hebrew way of thinking is very "two handed" as opposed to the "one handed" Greek way of thinking, Hebrew being "both and" where as Greek being "either or". The Hebrew way of thinking is very comfortable holding two contradictoray truths to be true at the same time.

[visionary]

I see no conflict with that... Lord said to look at His kingdom like a seed planted in the earth.

[Tishri1]

Early believers were premillenial. One can see this in the writings of Justin and Irenaeus, for example. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who learned from John the apostle. When Christianity became the religion of the Roman empire the desire for a coming kingdom was lost. The kingdom was viewed as being now. This view can be seen in Augustine's writings. Amillenialism and postmillenialism became the dominate views in the church. In the 19th century the increased study of prophecy with the literal interpretation of the books of Daniel and Revelation, in particular, produced a new interest in premillenialism. Most of the church, i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and many protestatnt denominations hold positions that are contrary to premillenialism. They even regard it as heresy. Groups that are premillenial tend to be pro-Israel and Judeophilic.

Among the Messianic Jewish teachers that I know, all hold a position that can be classified as premillenial.I DO!:clap:

[Shimshon]

My Rabbi told me that the Spirit of Elohim is ruling and reigning within my being NOW. :) And that He will come again to rule from Tziyon physically in His body that was resurrected to eternal life. Forever to be with us. In Spirit a Truth, till the end of days. It started the moment He poured his Spirit out upon my being.

The Spirit has been poured out upon his children. His kingdom has come. And when He comes back to rule physically He will find us kept by His Spirit, pure holy and spotless. His bride is waiting for him NOW. We are to perservere and remain steadfast in our position. United with Yeshua by the Spirit He gave us, we wait patiently for the day he comes back to restore ALL the earth. And all the earth will then be filled with His Glory. Messiah in us, our hope.

[Tishri1]

So maybe it is both... here now in the individual and one day when the Messianic kingdom comes for earth as it is in heaven.I agree, "here but not yet" I mean I can even feel it inside me, both kingdoms at work I mean, part of me can definately feel the world crashing in on me, and the other side is at peace in the arms of ABBA...

the Messianic / Jewish idea of time is interesting too and if it is true we are in the Messianic Kingdom right now...lets see where did I put that chart:scratch:well it's Adobe again and I can't copy and paste it bummer!

http://www.sa-hebroots.com/moshiach.pdf

page 60 if ya want to see it

basically it says that from the year 4000-6000 the age is called Yamot Hamashiach The Age/Kingdom of the Messiah this is Jewish stuff not mine sooo they said it themselves that we live in the age of Yeshua:clap: 6000-7000 is another age, as well as 7000-on