Concerns

[Kej]

I was pointed to a page by a Jewish friend that disturbed me. I'm a firm believer in Yeshua and His divinity.
I'd like to get you guys' opinions.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html

[Devasha]

Well, He hasn't fulfilled all of those conditions YET, but He will. :)

Something I found interesting is that these days you are considered a Jew as long as your mother is a Jew. If only your father is Jewish, then you are not. But this article insists upon paternal descendancy from Judah, rather than maternal.

The article is not acknowledging that those Scriptures can be referring to more than one coming of the Messiah, and yet every year at Passover a place is set in anticipation of the second coming of Elijah. If Elijah can come more than once, why can't the Messiah?

[Sephania]

Jews for Judaism is an Anti- Missionary site, meaning they try to keep Jews from finding Jesus, Yeshua. they camp out every year at the front of the College, Messiah college for the International Messianic Conference.

[Tishri1]

The Jews Believed because of the Prophesies that they may see two separate Messiahs... Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David.... that is why John the Baptists askedMatthew 11:2-6 2 Now when John in prison heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples, 3 and said to Him, "Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 "And blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me."

Luke 7:19-23 19 And summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, "Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?" 20 And when the men had come to Him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, 'Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?'" 21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He granted sight to many who were blind. 22 And He answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 "And blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me." They actually believed He was Messiah ben Joseph but want to know if He was IT(meaning one or both Messiahs) or would there be another after Him.....that is why Yeshua taught them about His death and resurrection so many times to tell them He would be back......And HE Will BE Back!:clap:

[Tishri1]

http://beth-abraham.org/benjoe.html

http://www.menorah.org/tembd14.html

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Messiah/messiah.html

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/rev5h.htm

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Shloshah-Asar_Ikkarim/Mashiach/mashiach.html

http://www.hadavar.org/Zechariah_12_10.html

hope you enjoy these:hug:

[~Nikki~]

The ones that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled on Yeshua's second coming...

[HaNotsri]

Something I found interesting is that these days you are considered a Jew as long as your mother is a Jew. If only your father is Jewish, then you are not. But this article insists upon paternal descendancy from Judah, rather than maternal.

Devasha,

In traditional Judaism, Jewishness is matrilineal. One is a Jew if one has a Jewish mother. However; title, tribe, priesthood, and royalty is patrilineal. That means that if one is of the royal line of David, it has to be completely of patrilineal lineage that leads him back to David. The same goes for the priests (kohenim) and levites (levi'im). All of these people who hold these lineages MUST marry a Jewish woman in order for their child to carry on the title. In fact, there are laws about who priests can marry for the sake of tahara (purity). For instance, a priest cannot marry a zonah (harlot), a divorcee, or giyores (a convert to Judaism).

Hope that helps

Michael

[Devasha]

I remember reading about the marital instructions to priests being different than for "laymen".

I know of a man who is Jewish, whose wife is not, and he said that because of that his daughter cannot immigrate to Israel as easily as he did, so it seems that currently even if you COULD prove a paternal line back to David, you would not be considered Jewish by those in charge in Israel unless you had a Jewish mother.

Was Bathsheba (and all the other mothers in the Davidic line) Jewish? :scratch: I know that Rahab and Ruth were not, but of course they preceded David, but in any case, is the argument then that the Messiah has to be descended in a paternal line from David AND have a Jewish mother, or is the Jewish mother optional when determining Davidic lineage?

But then if one is not Jewish because he doesn't have a Jewish mother, then how can he be a Jewish Davidic king? :confused:

That article didn't address the Jewish mother thing that seems to be so important these days, so it gets confusing.

[BarbB]

Here's a thought I was wondering about just the other day.

The NT is careful to note that John the Baptist is a Levite and yet his mother is kin to Mary. That means that Mary must be at least part Levite who married into David's lineage. This gives Yeshua proper priesthood by blood, not just assignment from the father.

[plum]

i guess i don't follow... John was a son of a priest so of course he was a Levite... do you mean that since his priestly father married elizabeth that elizabeth must've been a levite too? i'm tired.

[Flopsy Rabbit]

Things can get very confusing when the Word of G-d is combined with the traditions of men.

[BarbB]

i guess i don't follow... John was a son of a priest so of course he was a Levite... do you mean that since his priestly father married elizabeth that elizabeth must've been a levite too? i'm tired.

Luke actually says that Elizabeth was descended from Aaron as well as she must have been a Levite to have married her priest husband.


LK 1:5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. [6] Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.


I had never noticed this before. I do know that God is very careful with his priesthood - that it must be descended from Aaron. This indicates to me that Yeshua must have some physical descendence (is that a word? :) ) from Aaron as well as being a son of David. To me, this just solidifies his inheritance.

Also, I have read that Bathsheba was NOT a Jew. Among other reasons, as a Jew she would not have married Uriah the Hittite, no matter how righteous he was. Very interesting. Also interesting is that where a non-Hebrew bloodline entered, it was through the woman, not the man. Not complaining here - just grateful to G-d that he thought this all out so well! :bow:

[Sephania]

Comments on the above,

Luke actually says that Elizabeth was descended from Aaron as well as she must have been a Levite to have married her priest husband.



For claritys sake, You can be a Cohen which automatically makes you from the tribe of Levi, but you can also be a Levite and not a cohen ( from Aarons line) , her priest husband was actually lower in priestly status than she. :)

Elisheva, was not just a Levite, she was higher so to speak, she was of the Cohanim, ( directly from Aarons bloodline, the High Priest line from only two men) whereas, Zak was a general Levite. Their son , John was probalby more Kosher cohanim than the ones serving in the temple at that time. John was the priest who oversaw Yeshua's coming of the age of a priest and oversaw the mikvah given those who enter into G-d 's Holy service, like the cohanim did in the Torah.

I am not sure who is saying Bat Sheva ( daughter of seven, a very Hebrew name) was not Jewish. She was partaking of the mikvah , the ritual cleansing after a womans' time of the month, when David laid eyes on her nakedness, and knew it was 'OK' to sleep with her because she was tahoreh, clean.

Her fathers' name was Eliam Which means "God of the people" or "God is kinsman"

Also both bloodlines in the gospels show descendants from David through Bat Sheva, one from Shlomo and that other Nathan.

[BarbB]

Thanks for the explanation of Elizabeth, Zayit - that was interesting! Wouldn't that make Mary in all likelihood some part Levite if not Cohen? As well as from David?

Interesting also about Bathsheba (I'm still having trouble with daily use of Hebrew names :sorry: )

[HaNotsri]

You cannot be of the line of David and a Levi or Cohen. David was of the line of Judah.

Devasha,

It is assumed by Jewish tradition that women such as: Sarah (Abraham's wife), Joseph's wife, Tzipporah, Rahab, and Ruth were m'giyurred (converted to the faith of Israel, i.e. Judaism). In fact, in Jewish thought Ruth is one of the archtype convert. That's why her megillah is read on Shavuos (coming up! the day attributed to matan Torah), because at Har Sinai all of Israel "converted" back to God after a long exile in egypt. In the events all of Israel (well the men anyways) were circumcised and immersed in water for tahara, which is what it takes for one to become a Jew nowadays. When the Temple stood one also had to bring a sacrifice.

Other notable converts in the Bible are Abraham, converts at Haran, Erev Rav (the mixed-multitude, though they're seen as an evil element and those who caused the golden calf incident), Jethro, some of the Canaanim tribes, Obadiah the Prophet. Some notable converts to Judaism in Jewish history are Ben Bag Bag, Onkelos (the commentator), R' Akiva's ancestors, Nero (the Caesar), Obadiah the Proselyte (a man who conversed with Rambam through letters), King Herod's anestors (the Idumeans), etc.


Michael

[BarbB]

Thanks, Michael.

What do you do with the verses which say that Elizabeth was from the line of Aaron and Mary was her kin? We know that Mary was from David/Judah - but her close kin was from Aaron.


LK 1:5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. [6] Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.


I'm sorry that I'm explaining myself so poorly. I'm not worried about this - I'm excited! Yeshua is truly King and High Priest! I always understood the King but never saw how he could be (by blood) our high priest.

[Kej]

Thanks, Michael.
- I'm excited! Yeshua is truly King and High Priest! I always understood the King but never saw how he could be (by blood) our high priest.

Amen! This is how I feel as well. Confused, but excited lol

[Sephania]

I found something interesting, first lets go to Matthew for his geneology of Yeshua 'son of David'.

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

We see this is from Solomons line and continuing on after the exile:

12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; 13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; 14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; 15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Now Zerubabel is found in many books, namely Ezra, Chronicles, and Nehemiah as well as Zechariah and Haggai. There is a very interesting verse in Haggai that is a bit mysterious.

Check this out:


Verification it is the same one:
1 In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua ( Yeshua) the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,

now here is the interesting verse.

2:1 In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the L-RD by the prophet Haggai, saying, 2 Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest,

This time is during Sukkot, in fact it is the last day and is called I high holy Shabbat and a ceremony called Hoshana rabbah was done.

But I digress, here is the verse:

2:21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; 22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 In that day, saith the L-RD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the L-RD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the L-RD of hosts.


Now the Luke 'geneology starts at present and works its way back, and it builds up the scenario by Showing us John and his ministry and his tevellah for teshuvah and then we hear:

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

We see this introduction and see the Father saying that Yeshua is his beloved Son which is important because the end of the geneology, ( 'who was the son of') goes all the way back to G-d himself. Take a look:


23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Now is this Yosef the step-father? or Yosef the grandfather?

In Matthews geneology we see that it ends with:

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

So we know for sure that this geneology is of Yosef, the step-father, husband to Miriam. But could Luke's geneolgy be that of Miriam? and because it is from the mother only the paternals are mentioned? would it be better read as:


And Yeshua himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, Miriams father, who was the son of Heli,


Did Luke really say "as was supposed" or is that a church add in?


24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel,

Now here we see this same name again, Zerobabel son of Salathiel.
But lets back up ( and go forward in time) and look at verse 24 again. There is a man named Melchi and his son's name ws 'Levi'. Now as far as I know you don't name your son Levi, unless he is of that tribe.


which was the son of Neri, 28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


So what do you think?

[plum]

that talk about Yeshua as priest brings this to mind:
David was a priest of the order of Melchizadek, correct? And since Yeshua (as stated in Hebrews) is the high priest of that order... then he could not be of the Aaronic priesthood (duh, he's from the tribe of Judah, line of David). But anyway... it's even more important that he was a priest in the order of Melchizadek since we learn that the old priesthod could only do so much on earth while the Priest of Priests Yeshua can do infinately more to cleanse our sin, etc.

[DanielRB]

I was pointed to a page by a Jewish friend that disturbed me. I'm a firm believer in Yeshua and His divinity.
I'd like to get you guys' opinions.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html

Shalom, Kej, thanks for the post, :wave:

There are many websites like that of Jews for Judaism that ask these questions. I think many of them are good, valid questions. However, sometimes the questions are less than honest (and sometimes the accusations they make of the Messianic movement are frankly bigoted...indeed, I read an interesting article by someone who converted from Messianic Judaism to mainstream Judaism, and pleaded with his co-religionists not to make these bigoted and untrue statements because they only made themselves look bad.)

Nevertheless, many of these kinds of websites have given me food for thought. Although I consider myself Messianic still, I do have many questions that I would like answered.

I think the important thing to do, when confronted with these questions (as I am doing now), is to pray, study the Bible and make sure others are praying for you as well. Tishri and others have given some good website links to help you in your quest.

God is faithful and will lead you (and me, and all of us) into the truth--that is my firm conviction.

Above all, don't try to bury any questions you have. Talk to others, pray with others, study with others. God's love, truth and faithfulness will shine through. We should never fear to shine light on the truth--the truth cannot be defeated by light, but only grow stronger.

In Messiah,

Daniel

[visionary]

Above all, don't try to bury any questions you have. Talk to others, pray with others, study with others. God's love, truth and faithfulness will shine through. We should never fear to shine light on the truth--the truth cannot be defeated by light, but only grow stronger.

In Messiah,

DanielAmen

[Sephania]

that talk about Yeshua as priest brings this to mind:
David was a priest of the order of Melchizadek, correct? And since Yeshua (as stated in Hebrews) is the high priest of that order... then he could not be of the Aaronic priesthood (duh, he's from the tribe of Judah, line of David). But anyway... it's even more important that he was a priest in the order of Melchizadek since we learn that the old priesthod could only do so much on earth while the Priest of Priests Yeshua can do infinately more to cleanse our sin, etc.:scratch: Did you read my post Julie? And where have you read or heard that King David was of the order of Melchitzedek? Only Yeshua is of that because, he was the one who met Abraham, ( another thread ) Daivd was certainly was a king, but not a king of righteouness, which is what the name means.

Are you referring to Ps 110? This is David making a prophecy of the Messiah to come.

:)

Are you getting enough sleep? You mentioned more than once, being tired, do you need prayer?:prayer:

[Sephania]

Mods so this thread isn't derailed anymore, and so others that are studying this subject can find it, can you separate out the posts reguarding Yeshua's liniage and priesthood and start another thread with them titled something like, Yeshua, the King and Priest?

Todah raba!

[BarbB]

Zayit - I'm digesting your post above and agree pretty much except I wish you were in front of me with a blackboard and chalk! :doh:

I had always realized the differences in the geneologies and thought one was of Mary, but your further pieces of the pie are VERY interesting.

I've got to go out but when I get back tonight, let's think about this some more. By George, I think you've got something! :wave:

[HaNotsri]

There are many websites like that of Jews for Judaism that ask these questions. I think many of them are good, valid questions. However, sometimes the questions are less than honest (and sometimes the accusations they make of the Messianic movement are frankly bigoted...indeed, I read an interesting article by someone who converted from Messianic Judaism to mainstream Judaism, and pleaded with his co-religionists not to make these bigoted and untrue statements because they only made themselves look bad.)

Nevertheless, many of these kinds of websites have given me food for thought. Although I consider myself Messianic still, I do have many questions that I would like answered.

Daniel,

They same could be said with Christian/Messianic evangelists. Let's face it, when people are trying to convince other people of certain something...there usually is some sort of dishonesty. Whether they be missionary or antimissionary, it's the way of the world unfortunately.

Barb,

I'll have to respond to your question to me in about a week and a half. It's finals time!

[brokenbeliever]

Well, He hasn't fulfilled all of those conditions YET, but He will. :)

Something I found interesting is that these days you are considered a Jew as long as your mother is a Jew. If only your father is Jewish, then you are not. But this article insists upon paternal descendancy from Judah, rather than maternal.

The article is not acknowledging that those Scriptures can be referring to more than one coming of the Messiah, and yet every year at Passover a place is set in anticipation of the second coming of Elijah. If Elijah can come more than once, why can't the Messiah?
excellent point!

[visionary]

The article is not acknowledging that those Scriptures can be referring to more than one coming of the Messiah, and yet every year at Passover a place is set in anticipation of the second coming of Elijah. If Elijah can come more than once, why can't the Messiah?You are right... wonder why?

[Devasha]

As I was reading in Daniel today, this wording of "cut off" caught my eye, and to me it implies "to be continued".

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[visionary]

As I was reading in Daniel today, this wording of "cut off" caught my eye, and to me it implies "to be continued".

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.I wonder if Yeshua had been accepted as the suffering Messiah and the eyes were opened and the nation of Israel accepted Yeshua as the Messiah and worshipped Him as King when He was ressurrected, would He have stayed ot reign?

[Sephania]

And then where would the gentiles be today? ;)

[BarbB]

And then where would the gentiles be today? ;)

We'd be in the soup - :eek:

Thank you L-rd for instituting an age of the Gentiles and waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles! :bow:

[Flopsy Rabbit]

I think any one who wanted to follow G-d would have converted to Judaism, as I think they did all along?

[HaNotsri]

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I think it's important here to understand that the word used here for "Messiah" is moshiach, which literally means "annointed." That is what it should be translated as. Moshiach is generically used many times in Tan"ch (for priests, prophets, and kings) and is NEVER translated as "Messiah." I think it's intellectually dishonest when Christians attempt to translate this specifically as "Messiah."

I think any one who wanted to follow G-d would have converted to Judaism, as I think they did all along?

Many people did convert to Judaism (i.e. became Jews) as do many people do today. However, it was never a requirement for the sake of righteousness in the eyes of Judaism. There were gentile "God-fearers" who were called ger toshav or "resident strangers." They only were required to fulfill the seven commandments of Noah that was required of a non-Jew to live in the Land of Israel. They had their own section in the synagogue. They had to go before a beis din (a court of three Torah-observant Jews) in order to be considered a ger toshav. The seven commandments of Noah actually consist of between 60-70 of the Torah's commandments

Michael