Speaking in Tongues

[keeptrying]

We all know it is a spritural gift and it is real because the bible tells of this gift. I am curious to know what Lutherans personally think of this gift. Why do we not see much of this gift today in the church? or do we? To any that reply please identify your synod if you don't mind. Thank-you

added thought, my observation: I have heard of people having this gift but I never hear of anyone who says they have or know of anyone who has the gift of interpretation. If there are those speaking in tongues (other then another language) where are the interpreters?

[C.F.W. Walther]

There is no disclaimer in the LCMS about the gifts of the spirit. THey are recognized is edifying to the church and each person receives according to his need and all gifts are givern to the church. Our emphasis is not on the gifts edifying the person just the same as God's grace is about Him and not us. All the gifts do not make us better than each other or more spiritual or holy or blessed or whatever. The supposedly more prominent gifts were evident in the Bible when they were needed for spectacular results (mass conversions or miraculous examples).






In God’s eyes the different gifts themselves are not what is important. Rather, he looks for our response to him in our works and vocations. As Luther says, “Therefore it is his will that we also have regard for his command and vocation.”





Luther goes on to say:



"So St. Paul writes in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12: The body has many members, but not all members have the same work. So we are many members of one Christian congregation, but not all of us have the same work. Everyone ought to look after his own work, and not that of another; so we should live together in simple obedience, in a harmony of many missions and manifold works."




:scratch:

[keeptrying]

THey are recognized is edifying to the church and each person receives according to his need and all gifts are givern to the church. Our emphasis is not on the gifts edifying the person just the same as God's grace is about Him and not us.

Paul writes in 1 Cor. 14:4 " He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself....
The gift of tongues therefore must also be able to edify the person and the church.

Are you saying the gift of speaking in tongues is no longer a gift given by God in our day? Then how do we explain the churches that acknowledge this as being a gift present in their church? are they lying? misguided?

I try not to complicate things but I think you are simplifying something that you find difficult to explain.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Paul writes in 1 Cor. 14:4 " He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself....
The gift of tongues therefore must also be able to edify the person and the church.

Are you saying the gift of speaking in tongues is no longer a gift given by God in our day? Then how do we explain the churches that acknowledge this as being a gift present in their church? are they lying? misguided?

I try not to complicate things but I think you are simplifying something that you find difficult to explain.

I didn't say gifts weren't for our day. I said they were for unusual circumstances. For instance when there are unbelievers present thats when tongues were used. Read all of I Corithinas 14 and don't take things out of context. Paul says that he would rather say 5 words of instruction that 10,000 words of tongues in the church. Jesus also said that the Jews needed sign and wonders so that they would believe and that's why I think they were more prevalent in apostolic times than now.



I Corinthians 14:22-25

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28686g)] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28687h)]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

[LilLamb219]

Then how do we explain the churches that acknowledge this as being a gift present in their church? are they lying? misguided?

There are a great many modern day churches who falsely claim that you aren't a Christian unless you speak in tongues. Thus, their members fake it so that they fit in. There are some who don't even realize they're faking it, to tell you the truth. They get so completely caught up in the emotional moment that they believe they can actually speak in tongues...and produce a bunch of gobbledy goo. It's not what scripture meant by speaking in tongues.

[FLA2760]

There are a great many modern day churches who falsely claim that you aren't a Christian unless you speak in tongues. Thus, their members fake it so that they fit in. There are some who don't even realize they're faking it, to tell you the truth. They get so completely caught up in the emotional moment that they believe they can actually speak in tongues...and produce a bunch of gobbledy goo. It's not what scripture meant by speaking in tongues.
Amen LilLamb
We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's death on the cross His burial and His resurrection. .

[Flatscan82]

Amen LilLamb
We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's death on the cross His burial and His resurrection. .

what does that have to do with speaking in tounges?

[LilLamb219]

The comment was a reply to my posting when I said that some churches say you're saved if you speak in tongues. But salvation, as we know, doesn't mean that since we look to the cross for salvation and KNOW we're saved...not ourselves and what we can do or don't do.

[Gospellightofmine]

*My synod - WELS

Speaking in tongues - as mentioned during Pentecost ... The people must have been thrilled to hear God's Word preached in their native language.
I suppose we think, quite simply, - God tells us to look at teachings. If it's not of the Bible, it's wrong. A pastor told me once "Unbiblical teaching cannot be validated by claims of miracles or special gifts. See Deuteronomy 13:1-3" "Where the teachings do not agree with Scripture on things like the sacraments, fellowship, and the way of salvation, we know the tongues are not signs from God, and we are to seek the truth elsewhere."

What I don't understand is that all of today's "tongue speaking" seems to be unknown languages... if languages at all ... rather than what happened on Pentecost... Which for me, leads me to doubt the reality of what is claimed .... I've seen somewhere a videotape of someone speaking in modern day tongue ... It was interpreted by 4 different people, 4 different ways ....

[DaRev]

*My synod - WELS

Speaking in tongues - as mentioned during Pentecost ... The people must have been thrilled to hear God's Word preached in their native language.
I suppose we think, quite simply, - God tells us to look at teachings. If it's not of the Bible, it's wrong. A pastor told me once "Unbiblical teaching cannot be validated by claims of miracles or special gifts. See Deuteronomy 13:1-3" "Where the teachings do not agree with Scripture on things like the sacraments, fellowship, and the way of salvation, we know the tongues are not signs from God, and we are to seek the truth elsewhere."

What I don't understand is that all of today's "tongue speaking" seems to be unknown languages... if languages at all ... rather than what happened on Pentecost... Which for me, leads me to doubt the reality of what is claimed .... I've seen somewhere a videotape of someone speaking in modern day tongue ... It was interpreted by 4 different people, 4 different ways ....
The gift of tongues was used in earlier times as the means to spread the Gospel. This is exactly the reason for the manifiestation of this gift on the day of Pentecost. Today, the Gospel is printed and preached in practically every language in the world, so the gift of tongues is less prevalent today.

[LilLamb219]

I've seen somewhere a videotape of someone speaking in modern day tongue ... It was interpreted by 4 different people, 4 different ways ....

Did any of those interpretations lead to Christ, I wonder?

[ContraMundum]

There is no disclaimer in the LCMS about the gifts of the spirit.


I didn't realise that. Almost every LCMS document I have seen on the topic is staunchly cessasionist. While there may be no claims against certain charismata, there certainly is a lot of teaching around against them.

In particular, I think Prof. Judisch's famous essay "An Evaluation on the Claims to the Charismatic Gifts" has been well received by the LCMS in general. Also, if I recall the CTCR has addressed this a number of times, but I can't recall them being pro-tongues. But then again, I haven't read any of those documents for years.

If you have more information on this, let me know. I'm interested in the debate on tongues.

[Jim47]

*My synod - WELS

Speaking in tongues - as mentioned during Pentecost ... The people must have been thrilled to hear God's Word preached in their native language.
I suppose we think, quite simply, - God tells us to look at teachings. If it's not of the Bible, it's wrong. A pastor told me once "Unbiblical teaching cannot be validated by claims of miracles or special gifts. See Deuteronomy 13:1-3" "Where the teachings do not agree with Scripture on things like the sacraments, fellowship, and the way of salvation, we know the tongues are not signs from God, and we are to seek the truth elsewhere."

What I don't understand is that all of today's "tongue speaking" seems to be unknown languages... if languages at all ... rather than what happened on Pentecost... Which for me, leads me to doubt the reality of what is claimed .... I've seen somewhere a videotape of someone speaking in modern day tongue ... It was interpreted by 4 different people, 4 different ways ....


Welcome to the forum. I agree with your statement about the people at Pentecost being thrilled to hear God's Word being preached in their own language. Just as we are thrilled today to hear God's Word and His offer of salvation. The strange part is that all the churches that hinge their worship and belief in this gift don't realize that their babbling isn't quite the same as these people heard. If you try to discuss this with them they become quite defensive. If I were given this gift I would never utter a word unless it was to people of another language that needed to hear God's plan of salvation. The real gift is not to speak in tongues, but to speak the gospil to ears that have never heard of Jesus.

Thanks for your post. I am WELS too. Welcome aboard.

[Gospellightofmine]

Welcome to the forum. I agree with your statement about the people at Pentecost being thrilled to hear God's Word being preached in their own language. Just as we are thrilled today to hear God's Word and His offer of salvation. The strange part is that all the churches that hinge their worship and belief in this gift don't realize that their babbling isn't quite the same as these people heard. If you try to discuss this with them they become quite defensive. If I were given this gift I would never utter a word unless it was to people of another language that needed to hear God's plan of salvation. The real gift is not to speak in tongues, but to speak the gospil to ears that have never heard of Jesus.

Thanks for your post. I am WELS too. Welcome aboard.
Very well said !!!!!

Thank you for the warm welcome :)

I'm out of Northern IL - Nice to see everyone and especially another WELS :)

[SPALATIN]

Very well said !!!!!

Thank you for the warm welcome :)

I'm out of Northern IL - Nice to see everyone and especially another WELS :)

Chicago area?

[LilLamb219]

Hey there, Gospellightofmine! You only live a couple hours away from me...uhh...with all the new construction, double that time ;)

[C.F.W. Walther]

I didn't realise that. Almost every LCMS document I have seen on the topic is staunchly cessasionist. While there may be no claims against certain charismata, there certainly is a lot of teaching around against them.

In particular, I think Prof. Judisch's famous essay "An Evaluation on the Claims to the Charismatic Gifts" has been well received by the LCMS in general. Also, if I recall the CTCR has addressed this a number of times, but I can't recall them being pro-tongues. But then again, I haven't read any of those documents for years.

If you have more information on this, let me know. I'm interested in the debate on tongues.

Sorry 'bout that. I meant there were disclaimers in the LCMS about certain types of tongues especially the "nonsense" sounds that are found in some evangelical denoms. LCMS, like Luther, doesn't deny that tongues exist but only in the context of what the BIble says and not the claims of some reformed bodies.

To tell you the truth I don't see why it and phrophecy arn't more prevalent today. I know that in the apostalic church the Jews sought "signs and wonders" and more miracles happened but to be totally non-existent today is interesting.

I attended many A&G, CHarismatic and pentecoastal churches over the years and most everyone of these phenomenon were fake. WIth tongues the "alter" people would take you back stage after the service and basically make you talk gibberish and then tell you it was tongues. Made you feel that if you didn't have it that your faith was weak. Guys Like Benny Hinn, Jim Baker, Jack & Rexela Van Impe, Kenneth Copeland, Peter Popoff, etc,etc promoted this "schlock".

[paladin_carvin]

(I'm ECLA, but I don't see why this isn't in the general Lutheran area. Hope you guys don't mind)

When I got into college, I joined Chi Alpha (For those who don't know (probably most of you) this is supposedly non-denominational intercollege student ministry... which, in all honesty, is really the Pentecostal/Asb. O' God student ministry). When I got to college, I lost touch with my Lutheran roots and... well, basicly... you know the saying 'stand for something, or you will fall for anything?'. Yea... I fell for anything. After hearing a few lectures (sermons) about it, and being surrounded by people in prayer WHO WON'T SHUT UP (sorry, did I say that harshly... oops. It just always got on my nerves...) the idea got planted in my head. And one day, I was praying, and poof- there I went. I won't deny, it is a pretty thrilling experience, and and some times it seemed to be able to help me to focus on worship. But that really doesn't say it's a real spiritual gift. Anyway, a lot has happened since then, and I don't practice 'speaking in tongues' anymore, and if nothing else, I feel more sane because of it.

Hmm... I forgot what the point was I making... but anyway, that's my experience for ya.

[ContraMundum]

Sorry 'bout that. I meant there were disclaimers in the LCMS about certain types of tongues especially the "nonsense" sounds that are found in some evangelical denoms. LCMS, like Luther, doesn't deny that tongues exist but only in the context of what the BIble says and not the claims of some reformed bodies.

To tell you the truth I don't see why it and phrophecy arn't more prevalent today. I know that in the apostalic church the Jews sought "signs and wonders" and more miracles happened but to be totally non-existent today is interesting.

I attended many A&G, CHarismatic and pentecoastal churches over the years and most everyone of these phenomenon were fake. WIth tongues the "alter" people would take you back stage after the service and basically make you talk gibberish and then tell you it was tongues. Made you feel that if you didn't have it that your faith was weak. Guys Like Benny Hinn, Jim Baker, Jack & Rexela Van Impe, Kenneth Copeland, Peter Popoff, etc,etc promoted this "schlock".

:amen: :thumbsup:

[Ethan_Fetch]

I guess the problem I have is that so much of the signs and wonders phenomenon are common to pagan religious experience as well...

Nothing particularly Christian about it.

[C.F.W. Walther]

This just triggers other questions because of other unusual things that I've noticed. Charismatics supposedly we're a spawn of the RC church and the RC church also has unusual phenomenen. Mary appearing to people, stigmata, possession, Christ appearing on walls or pictures. Makes me wonder why these things happen. It's allmost as if they are pointing to themselves and basicly saying "we are the only true way because we are the only ones that have signs and wonders", or "We are the only ones that count because you can see the battle between good and evil in our midst". I don't see it that way. I just see it as a minifestation of something else.





:scratch:

[The Princess Bride]

Now, I know I am going to get flamed for posting this in the Lutheran forum without being Lutheran, but oh well...lol


I am Non-Denom. and in my church people DO operate in the gift of speaking in tongues. On the flip side, my BF is Lutheran, and he and I were discussing this very topic a few days ago. He thinks (for the most part) it is gibberish, which is one reason I avoid praying in tongues around him.

In my church,we believe there is the proper time and place for such things.

1 Corinthians 14:1-25

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

This is the verse that my church strongly operates on. Praying in tongues in private is encouraged, however, praying aloud or standing to give a word, is not, UNLESS there is an interpretation.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

To me, sometimes it is easier to pray in tongues, esp. when I have been scared or woken in the middle of the night with a burden to pray for someone.

I dont know why I said all that! I guess my basic point it: God gives it to us to use in the appropriate situation.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Usually these dicsuiions are sent to the general forum but in this case unless anyone else objects I think it's appropriate since we Lutherans don't ever run from a good conversation.

Here is the LCMS answer to the gifts. Any questions and we'll be glad to reply. http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2199

Gifts of the Spirit
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/blank.gif http://www.lcms.org/graphics/blank.gifQ. What is the Missouri Synod's view on speaking in tongues, prophecy, and faith healing?
A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod readily grants that at times in the past God has certainly bestowed upon his church certain "extraordinary gifts" of the Spirit (such as those mentioned in this question), and that it is certainly possible for God to grant those gifts still today. At the same time, the LCMS emphasizes that we have no promise in Scripture that God will grant all of the gifts of the Spirit to his church in all times and places, and it has expressed serious concerns about the unbiblical teachings and activities which have often accompanied claims regarding these gifts in the charismatic movement today.
The theological commission of the LCMS has prepared three reports on this topic: The Charismatic Movement and Lutheran Theology (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/charismatic_movement.pdf) (1972), The Lutheran Church and the Charismatic Movement (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/charismatic.pdf) (1977) and Spiritual Gifts (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/spiritgifts.pdf) (1994).

[Jim47]

Ac 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Ac 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
Ac 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


What many people fail to read or understand is the verses above that are in bold/underlined. The believers assembled at Pentecost were not just babbling some odd sounds, they were actually speaking in other languages. Is that what you folks do? Do you speak in German, French, Russian or some other language?

I am not trying to find fault here, I would just really like to know the truth.

[The Princess Bride]

Usually these dicsuiions are sent to the general forum but in this case unless anyone else objects I think it's appropriate since we Lutherans don't ever run from a good conversation.

Here is the LCMS answer to the gifts. Any questions and we'll be glad to reply. http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2199

Gifts of the Spirit
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/blank.gif http://www.lcms.org/graphics/blank.gifQ. What is the Missouri Synod's view on speaking in tongues, prophecy, and faith healing?
A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod readily grants that at times in the past God has certainly bestowed upon his church certain "extraordinary gifts" of the Spirit (such as those mentioned in this question), and that it is certainly possible for God to grant those gifts still today. At the same time, the LCMS emphasizes that we have no promise in Scripture that God will grant all of the gifts of the Spirit to his church in all times and places, and it has expressed serious concerns about the unbiblical teachings and activities which have often accompanied claims regarding these gifts in the charismatic movement today.
The theological commission of the LCMS has prepared three reports on this topic: The Charismatic Movement and Lutheran Theology (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/charismatic_movement.pdf) (1972), The Lutheran Church and the Charismatic Movement (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/charismatic.pdf) (1977) and Spiritual Gifts (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/spiritgifts.pdf) (1994).
Cool, thanks, I will read up on these. :wave:

Ac 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Ac 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
Ac 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


What many people fail to read or understand is the verses above that are in bold/underlined. The believers assembled at Pentecost were not just babbling some odd sounds, they were actually speaking in other languages. Is that what you folks do? Do you speak in German, French, Russian or some other language?

I am not trying to find fault here, I would just really like to know the truth.

I have often wondered the same thing myself....

Acts 2:17-21

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

When I look at verses like that...Speaking in Tongues seems more of a minor thing in comparision to Prophecy, Visions, and Dreams...Not that it isnt important, but I guess I just don't understand why gifts of the Spirit seem to get such a bad rap at times...

[C.F.W. Walther]

I don't think anyone in here is giving the gifts a bad rep. It's the abuse of the "proclaimed" gifts by some denoms that brings up hard questions of authenticity.



When I look at verses like that...Speaking in Tongues seems more of a minor thing in comparision to Prophecy, Visions, and Dreams...Not that it isnt important, but I guess I just don't understand why gifts of the Spirit seem to get such a bad rap at times...


Actually you've answered you own question. Just because of the emphasis on some gifts that are not essential to salvation. Everyone doesn't receive the same gifts. If a person edifies himself and not the church then what is the point. It's not about us it's about God.

[SPALATIN]

I don't think anyone in here is giving the gifts a bad rep. It's the abuse of the "proclaimed" gifts by some denoms that brings up hard questions of authenticity.




Actually you've answered you own question. Just because of the emphasis on some gifts that are not essential to salvation. Everyone doesn't receive the same gifts. If a person edifies himself and not the church then what is the point. It's not about us it's about God.

You must spread some reputation around before giving to Radidio again.

Excellent answer!

[The Princess Bride]

I don't think anyone in here is giving the gifts a bad rep. It's the abuse of the "proclaimed" gifts by some denoms that brings up hard questions of authenticity.




Actually you've answered you own question. Just because of the emphasis on some gifts that are not essential to salvation. Everyone doesn't receive the same gifts. If a person edifies himself and not the church then what is the point. It's not about us it's about God.
So I did! lol....:D

Honestly, my biggest frustration with the whole thing, is when people question me if I am TRULY operating in the giftings God has given me or if I am just "making it up", ie. Speaking in Tongues.

That makes me mad, :mad: When people question the validity of my faith and giftings. I feel like shouting at them to deal with the plank in their eye before trying to pick out the speck in mine! :help:

*Ends rant....

[LilLamb219]

or if I am just "making it up", ie. Speaking in Tongues

Since the vast majority of those claiming to speak in tongues are fake or unbiblical, maybe you should see it from their side and be a little more patient with their questioning?

[The Princess Bride]

Since the vast majority of those claiming to speak in tongues are fake or unbiblical, maybe you should see it from their side and be a little more patient with their questioning?
I do try, one reason why I only pray in tongues when I am alone, or with other people who believe in praying on tongues. :wave:

I can't recall the verse reference, but I try to keep in mind where Paul talks about if you do something that offends or disvalidates your brother or sister in Christ's convictions, that you are responsible to not cause offense to them, if it is within your control.
I.e...people who dont believe in speaking/praying in tongues, I in turn DONT pray in tongues around them.

I am personally responsible for how my actions affect another, and because of that, I strive to not "rock the theological boat" when I can. Other times, you gotta put your foot down though.

But yes, I do see where you are coming from. :)

The only verse that comes to mind about how to deal with it is 1 Thess. 5: 21
"Test all things; hold fast to what is good."

Of course we are to test everything as to whether it is from God or not, and if it is, it will be proven to be good.

[C.F.W. Walther]

So I did! lol....:D

Honestly, my biggest frustration with the whole thing, is when people question me if I am TRULY operating in the giftings God has given me or if I am just "making it up", ie. Speaking in Tongues.

That makes me mad, :mad: When people question the validity of my faith and giftings. I feel like shouting at them to deal with the plank in their eye before trying to pick out the speck in mine! :help:

*Ends rant....

Nobody is questioning the validity of your gifts and nobody is critizing you. I'm making statements that apply to the people that abuse it. Nobody is going to change your mind on what you believe but ask youself this. Havn't you seen abuse and with the gift of discernment havn't you discerned that some people arn't quite as honest as they shoud be about gifts? Also pose this question. In the denoms that practice special gifts have you noticed considerable controversy? Evangelists and ministers that are frauds, use coersion, very questionable theology, exorbitant amounts of money for there ministry that doesn't go back into it, stay pirmarily in the OT instead of the NT, get caught and arrested for illegal activities, bilking members for millions of dollars,,,,,,,,,,,,,I could go on. Yes we are ALL sinfull but it runs rampent in denoms like, Non-Denominational, Pentecoastal, A&G and Charismatic.

Actually I'm getting tired of responding to this post because I know first hand of the problems in these churches and it's useless even talking to people that are indoctrinated in the razle-dazle, happy-clappy, Jesus is my lover, self centered instead of Christ centered, name it and claim it denoms. I've been around them for years and watched the bilking of thousands of parishoners and leading them down the road to eternal death.




:sorry:

[The Princess Bride]

Radidio,
It was not my intention to cause you frustration or start an arguement here. :)

I guess I just have a gazillion questions and dont know when to shut up! lol...

I by no means meant that anyone HERE on CF made me feel angered, I was referring to people I actually know. I.e My grandfather, who is Catholic. (long story on that).
Actually, I have found everyone here to be quite encourgaging or challenged (in a good way) my beliefs.

But I do agree with you, There are a LOT of people who abuse God's gifts, which is very sad. :(
I suppose it is just up to each of us to be close to the Heart of God, and allow Him to guide us, and give us discernment concerning these things.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Well we will try to be a little more charitable :)

What other questions do you have?

One thing aobut those denoms I've mentioned above is that they are VERY legalistic. Any law in the Bible has to be followed explicitely. Something akin to the OT rabinical laws. When we are saved we love God so much that we try to keep his commandments becaude we love him and not because we are under the law. We are new testament Christians and saved by God's saving grace and not convicted under the law.

ie: I was dating a pentecostal lady a couple of years ago and she said that she loved me but that she could not marry me because I had been divorced unbilicly. I will not go into details but I asked my pastor and he said that since I was truly repentent he didn't see any problem with it. My sins were forgiven as far as the east is from the west and since I was repentent the sin didn't exist. In the penetecostal denom that sin was allways there and I could not remarry so I figured if the sin was still there then why ask forgivness for something that wouldn't dissapear and would be basicly an unforgivable/unforgetable spot on my life. They were basicaly trying to take away the saving grace of God so I just told the lady that she had missed a good thing :)

[The Princess Bride]

Well we will try to be a little more charitable :)

What other questions do you have?

One thing aobut those denoms I've mentioned above is that they are VERY legalistic. Any law in the Bible has to be followed explicitely. Something akin to the OT rabinical laws. When we are saved we love God so much that we try to keep his commandments becaude we love him and not because we are under the law. We are new testament Christians and saved by God's saving grace and not convicted under the law.
:amen: Thank you for saying that! So true!

ie: I was dating a pentecostal lady a couple of years ago and she said that she loved me but that she could not marry me because I had been divorced unbilicly. I will not go into details but I asked my pastor and he said that since I was truly repentent he didn't see any problem with it. My sins were forgiven as far as the east is from the west and since I was repentent the sin didn't exist. In the penetecostal denom that sin was allways there and I could not remarry so I figured if the sin was still there then why ask forgivness for something that wouldn't dissapear and would be basicly an unforgivable/unforgetable spot on my life. They were basicaly trying to take away the saving grace of God so I just told the lady that she had missed a good thing :)
Amen.
I detest it when people grossley distort the Bible and what it means.

If Christ came to save us from our sins, and us entering into heaven is based on salvation and relationship, and not works. Why is it that when people who are stuck with an OT mindset and "playing" the part of a Christian, see someone who is truly walking the Christian walk, try to bash them for it and pull them back down to OT ideologies? :confused:

If God has forgiven a person, end of story! No need to drag it on. :sigh:

[C.F.W. Walther]

OK---I went over to the non-denoms, charismatics etc forums and read what they had to say on the subject. I did this on the advice of The Princess Bride and it just reinforces my observations of discernment.

Gifts can be abused because they point to self and promote "puffing up". The devil can be alive and well in these situations and belive it or not he is real.

We as Lutherans allmost without fail assign the devil to a very minor roll, and rightly so, because we take ourselves out of the equation and put Christ at the center. The opposite happens in the above mentioned denoms. This gives him power to feed on their sellf-centered concerns and then uses the gifts against them as in the abuses of discernment and gifts of knowledge--------all the gifts. It makes them believe they are more important than they really are. We are fallen, sinfull man and not god prospects.

Satan also fuels their paranoia on keeping the letter of the law. If they don't keep the law to a tee then they have unfounded guilt trips and satan uses this to make them feel inadequate and less of a Christian. Satan is devious and works covertly and not overtly like people think. He's not stupid.

I've even noticed this concern among their own members as stated in their forums so I know they realize somthing is amiss.




:scratch:

[The Princess Bride]

OK---I went over to the non-denoms, charismatics etc forums and read what they had to say on the subject. I did this on the advice of The Princess Bride and it just reinforces my observations of discernment.

Gifts can be abused because they point to self and promote "puffing up". The devil can be alive and well in these situations and belive it or not he is real.

Exactly! :wave: That is why we shouldn't try to build God INTO OUR life, but build our Life AROUND GOD!

The key here is "can be abused" just because SOME people may abuse it, doesnt mean everyone does. :)

We as Lutherans allmost without fail assign the devil to a very minor roll, and rightly so, because we take ourselves out of the equation and put Christ at the center. The opposite happens in the above mentioned denoms. This gives him power to feed on their sellf-centered concerns and then uses the gifts against them as in the abuses of discernment and gifts of knowledge--------all the gifts. It makes them believe they are more important than they really are. We are fallen, sinfull man and not god prospects.

Satan also fuels their paranoia on keeping the letter of the law. If they don't keep the law to a tee then they have unfounded guilt trips and satan uses this to make them feel inadequate and less of a Christian. Satan is devious and works covertly and not overtly like people think. He's not stupid.

Again, corect. We are not under Law, but under Grace. If we continue to try and follow the Law to a "T", then Christ died in vain, because we are completely forfetting what He did.

While we are not "god prospects" we do have a Heavenly heirship, which gives US authority OVER the devil.

Sure, the devil is here to "steal, kill, and destroy" but we have Christ's authority over that, and so long as our motives and intent are righteous before God, we won't succumb to the devils deception.

I've even noticed this concern among their own members as stated in their forums so I know they realize somthing is amiss. :scratch:

You are right. :sigh: It is an ongoing problem.
Christianity is being shaken at it's core, because people don't know what to believe anymore.
Disillusioned and dissatisfied "christian's" don't find what they want in God, (a free hand out, basically, with no strings attached), so in turn, they abuse what Christianity is all about, and give it a warped image in the process.
That's just my view anyways...which compltely detracked from the subject! :D

[C.F.W. Walther]

Christianity is being shaken at it's core, because people don't know what to believe anymore.
Disillusioned and dissatisfied "christian's" don't find what they want in God, (a free hand out, basically, with no strings attached), so in turn, they abuse what Christianity is all about, and give it a warped image in the process.


Well GOOD NEWS!!. We have a free hand out with no strings attached.

Jesus died for us and forgave us our sins and it was free with no good works, or commitment on our own, because we were sinfull and coundn't accept him on our own. He did it and we didn't. We just happen to hear his word and it worked on our souls and we confessed our sins and that we were helpless without him. We were captured by the Spirit and now we are HIS.....cool HUH?!


:clap: :amen: :amen: :thumbsup: :preach: :liturgy: ^_^ ^_^ ;) :)

[LilLamb219]

Well GOOD NEWS!!. We have a free hand out with no strings attached.

Exactly! "WE" don't have to do anything to receive it either. It's given to us like when rain falls on our heads; we receive. We don't have to ask for it, we don't have to decide for it, we don't have to ask Jesus into our hearts to get it, or surrender ourselves to get it, etc... Everything that needs to be done, is done by God 100%. :)

[LutherNut]

Exactly! "WE" don't have to do anything to receive it either. It's given to us like when rain falls on our heads; we receive. We don't have to ask for it, we don't have to decide for it, we don't have to ask Jesus into our hearts to get it, or surrender ourselves to get it, etc... Everything that needs to be done, is done by God 100%. :)

In fact, it has already been given... to every human being. There are some who don't know they have it, though. Conversion then is not the 'receiving" of the gift, but rather a realization that we already have it.

We can then do two things, reject it (an action on our part) or say thank you (in reponse to God's action for us).

[DaRev]

In fact, it has already been given... to every human being. There are some who don't know they have it, though. Conversion then is not the 'receiving" of the gift, but rather a realization that we already have it.

We can then do two things, reject it (an action on our part) or say thank you (in reponse to God's action for us).

:thumbsup:

[The Princess Bride]

Well GOOD NEWS!!. We have a free hand out with no strings attached.

Quite Cool! ;)

What I meant by "no strings attached" was how a lot of people become saved, but they dont work on their relationship with Christ. :wave:

They say. "OK, I'm saved, now fix my life"..but things dont work that ways.

We can only expect to truly be changed and our life and situations changed if we are willing to sacrifice what we want, by spending time praying, spending time in God's word, and building our life around Him.

That's what I was getting at. :cool:

[C.F.W. Walther]

Quite Cool! ;)

What I meant by "no strings attached" was how a lot of people become saved, but they dont work on their relationship with Christ. :wave:

They say. "OK, I'm saved, now fix my life"..but things dont work that ways.

We can only expect to truly be changed and our life and situations changed if we are willing to sacrifice what we want, by spending time praying, spending time in God's word, and building our life around Him.

That's what I was getting at. :cool:

If a person spends time on themselves and not God then how can they grow?

If we spend time exploiting "prosperity" (WoF) ministries for our own purposes, gifts for the edification of ourselves instead of the church (I Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church), "Name it and claim it" for personal gain (thinking God is a cornucopia of goodies for our every desire), personal healing ministries showing how much faith "I" have, Etc.Etc.

Let me stop here and ask: Why did you really come to this forum? What are you looking for? What has the Spirit (counselor) put on your heart? Are you searching for answers that you havn't found yet?

Why not take the "I" out of the equation and put God back in.

The people you mentioned above don't have room for "Him" because they are full of "I".

We are new creatures wanting to be filled with "new wine". We don't have to strive for "We can only expect to truly be changed and our life and situations changed if we are willing to sacrifice what we want, by spending time praying, spending time in God's word, and building our life around Him"since He is in us. We don't need to get his attention anymore because the Spirit in us will do the striving. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19 (King James Version)

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[LilLamb219]

We don't need to get his attention anymore because the Spirit in us will do the striving.

Great post!

[Jim47]

Great post!


I second that! :thumbsup:

[JFox1]

I agree that speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, but I don't think it's encouraged in my particular church. I have never heard anyone there speak in tongues. Most people in my church associate it with the Pentecostals and other charismatics.

[Simon_Templar]

Ac 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Ac 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
Ac 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


What many people fail to read or understand is the verses above that are in bold/underlined. The believers assembled at Pentecost were not just babbling some odd sounds, they were actually speaking in other languages. Is that what you folks do? Do you speak in German, French, Russian or some other language?

I am not trying to find fault here, I would just really like to know the truth.
Actually, there is another way of looking at that. If you look at the different ethnic groups present in that event, there is something like 14 different ethnic groups there.

People often assume that the apostles were simply speaking other known languages (like one maybe was speaking egyptian etc) but to many of the people present what the apostles were doing DID sound like gibberish. We know this because many of the people present accused the apostles of being drunk, and started laughing at them. This is what prompted Peter to get up and give his famous sermon.

So, what the apostles were doing did sound like gibberish to many of those assembled. To many others it sounded like their own native languages. I do not think that one was speaking egyptian and another arabian, and another latin, and another greek etc.. Many people in that time especially those who were educated, or had any experience traveling were multi-lingual, thus it is unlikely that, even if they didn't fluently speak another known language, that they wouldn't recognize the sound of it at least vaguely, especially given Jerusalem was an international city which every major feast gathered a huge crowd of Jews from ever corner of the empire. Rather I think they spoke in supernatural tongues (tongues of angels etc) and the people simply heard them in their own langauge.

Also, Paul makes it very clear in his epistles to the corinthians that some tongues at least are unknown to all present including the person speaking them.

However, he also makes it clear that such isntances are meant as a personal devotion or spiritual discipline, not for corperate worship. (which many of the charismatic and pentecostals miss and go way over board on).

the practice of tongues is mentioned in the early church as well as a form of worship, up to about the time of Augustine who makes refrence to it. I'm not sure about later refrences.

[Jim47]

Actually, there is another way of looking at that. If you look at the different ethnic groups present in that event, there is something like 14 different ethnic groups there.

People often assume that the apostles were simply speaking other known languages (like one maybe was speaking egyptian etc) but to many of the people present what the apostles were doing DID sound like gibberish. We know this because many of the people present accused the apostles of being drunk, and started laughing at them. This is what prompted Peter to get up and give his famous sermon.

So, what the apostles were doing did sound like gibberish to many of those assembled. To many others it sounded like their own native languages. I do not think that one was speaking egyptian and another arabian, and another latin, and another greek etc.. Many people in that time especially those who were educated, or had any experience traveling were multi-lingual, thus it is unlikely that, even if they didn't fluently speak another known language, that they wouldn't recognize the sound of it at least vaguely, especially given Jerusalem was an international city which every major feast gathered a huge crowd of Jews from ever corner of the empire. Rather I think they spoke in supernatural tongues (tongues of angels etc) and the people simply heard them in their own langauge.

Also, Paul makes it very clear in his epistles to the corinthians that some tongues at least are unknown to all present including the person speaking them.

However, he also makes it clear that such isntances are meant as a personal devotion or spiritual discipline, not for corperate worship. (which many of the charismatic and pentecostals miss and go way over board on).

the practice of tongues is mentioned in the early church as well as a form of worship, up to about the time of Augustine who makes refrence to it. I'm not sure about later refrences.



Thanks for exressing your views, but I know of no Lutherans that believe this, but I prefer to have others state this themselves.

You may want to read "God's Word" version of the bible, it clearly states they were speaking in another lnguage not in a tongue, this version is taken dicrectly from manuscripts, not a cross translation as many are.

[Simon_Templar]

Thanks for exressing your views, but I know of no Lutherans that believe this, but I prefer to have others state this themselves.

You may want to read "God's Word" version of the bible, it clearly states they were speaking in another lnguage not in a tongue, this version is taken dicrectly from manuscripts, not a cross translation as many are.
The greek simply means "to speak with other tongues"

of course no one denies that tongues are languages, the only question is are they necessarily known human languages? or can they be as Paul later states "tongues of angels"

[C.F.W. Walther]

The greek simply means "to speak with other tongues"

of course no one denies that tongues are languages, the only question is are they necessarily known human languages? or can they be as Paul later states "tongues of angels"
Well if you are refering to the Bible verses that Jim posted then you should look up the Koine Greek and it's translation. It does not refer to "speak with other tongues". It states in Acts 2:8: own (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&word=own) [2398] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&strongs=2398&page=) idios tongue (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&word=tongue), [1258] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&strongs=1258&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif dialektos

Also in Acts 2:6:
in (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=in) his (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=his) own (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=own) [2398] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&strongs=2398&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif idios
language (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=language). [1258] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&strongs=1258&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif dialektos

and Acts 2:11
in (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&word=in) our (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&word=our) [2251] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&strongs=2251&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif hemeteros tongues (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&word=tongues)
[1100] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&strongs=1100&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif glossa

[The Princess Bride]

Maybe it is both though....

Perhaps there are times when people who speak are really speaking in a foreign language...and then at other times "with the tongues of angels"....

It may not always be one or the other...perhaps as God see's fit?

[C.F.W. Walther]

All I can do is give you the Greek translation of the verses Jim quoted. Translatons give you the original intent and translation of the author. Not speculation

[Simon_Templar]

Well if you are refering to the Bible verses that Jim posted then you should look up the Koine Greek and it's translation. It does not refer to "speak with other tongues". It states in Acts 2:8: own (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&word=own) [2398] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&strongs=2398&page=) idios tongue (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&word=tongue), [1258] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=8&strongs=1258&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif dialektos

Also in Acts 2:6:
in (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=in) his (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=his) own (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=own) [2398] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&strongs=2398&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif idios
language (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&word=language). [1258] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=6&strongs=1258&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif dialektos

and Acts 2:11
in (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&word=in) our (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&word=our) [2251] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&strongs=2251&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif hemeteros tongues (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&word=tongues)
[1100] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=2&verse=11&strongs=1100&page=)http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs040.gif glossa
That, I think, would actually support my view because we were discussing acts 2:4 which says "speak with other tongues" (heteros glossa) describing what the apostles did.

Then in the verses which you list it is describing what the foreigners heard, in their own "dialektos". Interesting comparison.

However, the fact that in 2:11 it uses glossa again for "our own tongue" would tend to indicate that this is all largely a semantic debate and the words are used interchangably.

The point remains, though, that it is a false distinction to say "tongues" as opposed to "languages". Even those of us who practice speaking in tongues today believe they are languages. The issue, again is wether the have to be known human languages, or wether they can also be unknown divine language.

Paul's comment in corinthians pretty clearly indicate that they not only can be, but usually are unknown.

[Jim47]

Acts 2:8 directly from God's Word Bible

"Why do we hear them speaking in our native dialects?"

No mention of tongues. Yes there are versions that support your beliefs, but this is taken from manuscripts.

[Simon_Templar]

Acts 2:8 directly from God's Word Bible

"Why do we hear them speaking in our native dialects?"

No mention of tongues. Yes there are versions that support your beliefs, but this is taken from manuscripts.
the point I was trying to get at, is that even as you state it, it doesn't contradict my belief. Its only your assumption about what that means which contradicts my belief.

[C.F.W. Walther]

I don't see anything supporting your premiss. It's pretty obvious from our quotes that it is know dialect. Paul only mentioned that the "tongues" that they were speaking were not totally understood by the people present because not evey "know" language was represented with a person present.

I think you might be missing the whole point. The Holy Spirit in us and the fruits of the Spirit and the fruit that we bare is the essential part of the edification of God and Church. If it isn't done with Love and Charity it doesn't mean a thing. An empty gong as you are want to quote in I Cr 13 about tongues of angels.
V. 1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. V. 2. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. V. 3. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

There is too much emphasis on gifts of the Spirit. Even Paul said that they should cease and then recanted and said that they should at least slow down. The jews needed signs and wonders becasue of their hard hearts and the gifts served a purpose. If unbelievers were to hear tongues Paul even said that it would be a bad witness.

1CO 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

[Simon_Templar]

I don't see anything supporting your premiss. It's pretty obvious from our quotes that it is know dialect. Paul only mentioned that the "tongues" that they were speaking were not totally understood by the people present because not evey "know" language was represented with a person present.

I think you might be missing the whole point. The Holy Spirit in us and the fruits of the Spirit and the fruit that we bare is the essential part of the edification of God and Church. If it isn't done with Love and Charity it doesn't mean a thing. An empty gong as you are want to quote in I Cr 13 about tongues of angels.
V. 1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. V. 2. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. V. 3. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

There is too much emphasis on gifts of the Spirit. Even Paul said that they should cease and then recanted and said that they should at least slow down. The jews needed signs and wonders becasue of their hard hearts and the gifts served a purpose. If unbelievers were to hear tongues Paul even said that it would be a bad witness.

1CO 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
just like a few years ago, I didn't see anything in the same scriptures which supported your premise ;)

Anyway, I'm not missing the point. Its just a matter of perspective. When I'm in the charismatic forums here, I frequently argue the verses you quoted above, and argue that charismatics are misusing the idea of tongues. Because we do.

However, In the context of what you guys are saying here, your going to the opposite extreme. You're looking at what abuses have been made of tongues, and saying as a result 'lets not have anything to do with it'.

There is no indication in Paul's writings that the manifestation of the gifts should slow down or cease UNTIL that which is perfect has come. This is not a refrence to the church, or the bible, it is a refrence to our completion in Christ when we have received the hope of glory.
As long as the church exists in this age of the world, she needs the gifts, because we need the gifts.

The denial of the gifts is almost entirely based on fear of the abuse of the more "flashy" gifts. Think about what you are denying when you say that the gifts need to slow down.. wisdom, knowledge, discernment, faith, healing, prophecy (which is merely God speaking a message into a given situation, it doesn't mean fortelling the future)
Are you really ready to start having those things slow down, or cease? Do you really think the church has out grown them?

I agree 100% that all of these things are useless if they do not serve the church, and do not serve to build up the body of Christ in love.

When some guy prances around on a stage shouting in tongues.. its useless, and in many cases its disobedient, its flesh, not Spirit. Thats not what I'm talking about.

The kind of tongues most often used, and described by Paul as unknown, "your spirit speaking mysteries to God". Is a personal devotion. You can say "well then it doesn't build up the body" and thats exactly why Paul said not to do it in church. My response would be, do you only worship in Church? do you only commune with God in church.. do you only ever talk to God when it has to do with building up the church.. or do you come to him personally as well?

Tongues is a valuable manifestation of the Spirit, in which a person practices devotion through opening themselves to the Spirit and allowing him to pray through them.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Anytime you read "unknow" tongue in the NT it has been added as emphasis. It was not in the original manuscripts. KJV usually has in in paranthesis. A lot of the newer translations have misstakingly added it.

In the following verse it is implied that the Spirit is not a continuing experience and is not allways with a person. Peter says that it came again as it had the first time. To me this stresses that it was an experience for the apostolic church.

Acts 11:15 (King James Version)
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


The tongues were actual known dialects. Acts 2:6, 8 uses the Greek word, dialekto -- dative case, which v. 8 affirms was their own native language.

The whole "gifts of the Spirit" is something that is not diametricly opposed in the Lutheran Church but is considered something to be approached cautiously.

Our salvation is through God's Grace alone and not something we have helped bring about. Then emphasis on tongues or gifts focuses more on what we can do than on what God has done for us. Anytime we put ourselves and what we can do in the middle of our lives and replace God as the center then we have to avoid that as much as possible.

What has been truly handed down to you as far as praying in the Spirit or speaking in tongues? Do you seriously believe that God has given you that gift? Would you swear before God that you believe he has given it to you and what, how, why or when did you receive it and is there an instruction manual that says how to use it or what it sounds like?

Certain things happened when the Spirit of the Lord descended on people. Have you seen the tongues of flame on people in churches? Have you seen these same people that spaek in tongues talk to foreigners in ther own language?

I've been to churches were everyone is speaking in tongues. The Bible states that certain people receive certain gifts. How can everyone receive the same gift? They can't, at least according to the Bible.

Do you consider a differance between speaking in tongues and praying in the Spirit? When/if you pray in the Spirit how do you knowe that that is what you are doing or are you just uttering nonsense sylables? WHat is praying in the Spirit really? You can say you pray in the Spirit and pray in tongues but can you really?

[Studeclunker]

Missouri Synod.

This has been a facinating read! Thank you all for participating.

Now if I might be allowed to put my foot in my mouth, I mean, two cents worth in.:o

Simon, you make a good case. Unfortuneately you base it on a fragement of scripture instead of the full quotation. I think this may be what Radidio is trying to point out to you. We must be careful to consider the whole of what a writer had put down. Otherwise it can lead to error. This is what led the ELCA to stray into error.

One of the reasons Paul used greek as his language of choice for his writings was it's inherent clairity. For instance the word love. The Greeks used four words for this one. C.S.Lewis wrote a whole book on just this one example. The Four Loves I strongly recommend it, though not as a part of this discussion, it's just a really good book. I believe the Holy Spirit forsaw this problem two thousand years ago and lead Paul to use the clearest language available at the time. Proper translation of Greek leaves little room for mis-translation. Hebrew and Aramaiac do.

Radidio had properly translated the intent and meaning of the text. The followers upon whom the Holy Spirit had decended were speaking known and understood languages at the time the event occured. Paul deals with gifts and their mis-use in Corinthians (one and two). He deals particularly with toungues. "But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God."

As a Luthern I am still able to acknowledge that the gifts are still present in the catholic church (no, not Roman Catholic! Small c here as in all combined). Take note here though. The Apostle Paul is of the opinion that these 'toungues' can be translated. This supports the wording that indicates a known understandable language. Paul goes on to say, "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." He stressed order and decency. "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." This loud gabbling I've been whitness to in Charasmatic churches is not orderly, translated, or edifying. Therefore according to the Great Apostle, it should be done away with.

Another point to consider. Paul points out further that the gifts are provided for the weak in faith. As also, more to the point, did the Lord himself, "Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe." He got rather testy on more than one occasion when asked for signs and wonders.

My own pastor pointed out one time that the gifts were so prevalent in the early church because they didn't have the New Testament. We have the complete books of the Old and New Testament. That is a great advantage. Therefore, since the Lord has already provided you with the tools you need, why should he add in signs and wonders?

Here's another book recommendation. This one is fictional. It's a good read though, The Falcon And The Serpent. I don't remember the author's name, sorry to say. Still, one should be able to find it easily in any Christian book store. One of the central characters in the story is a Knight. He's one of those big buff bad dudes (with a good heart devoted to God) that has always been able to do his job with strength and the sword. In otherwords he's been the one doing the action. Towards the end of the book, Mennon (God) asks him to stand aside and let the one he would rather protect do the fighting. He is asked to step aside and wait in faith. Another time he struggles with the conversion of a pagan priest who sees and speaks prophecy. This converted pagan sees visions and the knight does not. This really disturbs him. Later on Mennon comes to him in a dream and explains that the Knight didn't recieve these signs and wonders because he didn't need them. Do you?

[TheCosmicGospel]

I am jumping in without a full read of the story here. I would like to look at it from a different view if I may.

1) When Jesus healed anyone, He usually added something beyond it being just a physical healing. "Your faith has made you well." "Go and sin no more." "Your sins are forgiven." There was always a word spoken to suggest to me anyways that the healing was only secondary in nature and that the real healing was spiritual.

2) Today it seems that we always want to do the very opposite. We make the word secondary and want the physical side and even make it prominent when possible. "I speak in tongues." This is a very subjective thing since even false religions use tongues and anyone excited by the devil could utter them as well. They can be faked.

3) The Lutheran position is not one so much against "tongues" but against a subjectifying as opposed to the objective nature of true faith. It is not of ourselves. Even more important, is that the WORD is the field of the operating Spirit.

4) If the Spirit moves apart from the Word giving ecstatic utterances, how will anyone know who's who and where is first base? Paul gives real guidelines so this would not happen. Either use them for yourselves or, with interpretation. How many follow this? Not many I would imagine. Subjective and without test. Its what brings Santa Claus, not Christ.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

[The Princess Bride]

I am jumping in without a full read of the story here. I would like to look at it from a different view if I may.

1) When Jesus healed anyone, He usually added something beyond it being just a physical healing. "Your faith has made you well." "Go and sin no more." "Your sins are forgiven." There was always a word spoken to suggest to me anyways that the healing was only secondary in nature and that the real healing was spiritual.

2) Today it seems that we always want to do the very opposite. We make the word secondary and want the physical side and even make it prominent when possible. "I speak in tongues." This is a very subjective thing since even false religions use tongues and anyone excited by the devil could utter them as well. They can be faked.

3) The Lutheran position is not one so much against "tongues" but against a subjectifying as opposed to the objective nature of true faith. It is not of ourselves. Even more important, is that the WORD is the field of the operating Spirit.

4) If the Spirit moves apart from the Word giving ecstatic utterances, how will anyone know who's who and where is first base? Paul gives real guidelines so this would not happen. Either use them for yourselves or, with interpretation. How many follow this? Not many I would imagine. Subjective and without test. Its what brings Santa Claus, not Christ.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic
I find your points very intriguing, so I will keep my reply short. :)

Paul said we do not understand things of the spirit, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yet, we try to "define" something like "speaking in tongues" based on our knowledge and what few and rather limited (on details) accounts of speaking in tongues in the Bible. ;)

This is how I see it: If it's of God, it WILL have an interpretation to be edifying for all; if it doesn't, then it was just gibberish.

I believe that God is pouring out His spirit in these days in ways we are not used to, may find unexpected, or just may not even like, but if signs, wonders, healings, prophecies, and miracles are still occuring, then I believe speaking in tongues is along for the ride. ;)


*hopes off soapbox*

[TheCosmicGospel]

The point is not, do you speak in tongues or not with me as this. You still have to return to an objective faith based experience where the Word and the Spirit are more important than the personal experience of the tongues. It is like the man who could walk again placing more faith in his ability to cross the street than in Jesus forgiving him. This to me would be the test of tongues being real. But for many, they place too much on the fact that they do and this begins to be devisive because of those who don't.

Who has not heard, unless you speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit? As was said in the above post, man is spiritually unable to discern the Spirit. So what test could he come up with to see if tongues were real or imagined? You just can't separate the Word and the Spirit. Tongues may be real but wonder as to their purpose if so many are deluded by them. Too many frauds are abusing them for my taste. Everything of God has been imitated by the enemy. How do you get out of that corner being totally "subjective"?

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic


"We are here to serve God, not to solve God." Cosmic