Water Baptism required for Salvation

[ChurchofChrist]

This is for Stinker...

First I would like to say that everything I say I will back up with scripture. First thing we must remember is that anything man says is worthless we must go by what God teaches in the Bible. Some might say that the Apostles were just men so why listen to them and that we should just listen to the teachings of Jesus alone. So we need to then look at 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Clearly anything written by God or the Apostles is truly from God. And it is meant to make us complete. Anyways on to baptism..

Lets look at what baptism is:

First we need to look at the word itself
The word in Greek was Baptiozw. The definition for this word is: to dip, to immerse, to submerge.
This clearly rules out any sprinkling practices

There are 7 reasons for baptism

It is a new birth/born again John 3:3-5

Needed to become a disciple Matthew 28:18-20

We are buried and Raised with Christ Romans 6:3-5

This is how are sins are forgiven Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16
Second verse uses the word wash
parallel to water

We are clothed with Christ Galations 3:27

We receive salvation Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21

We are added to Gods church Acts 2:38, Acts 2:47



Also in the Bible there are 10 stories in the New Testiment were people are converted and in all 10 they are Baptized.

1-Pentecost: Acts 2
2-Samaritans: Acts 8:12
3-Simon: Acts 8:13
4-Eunuch: Acts 8:35-40
5-Saul/Paul: Acts 9:18
6-Cornelius: Acts 10:37
7-Lydia: Acts 16:14-15
8- Jailor: Acts 16:30-34
9-Corinthians Acts 18:8
10-Ephesians: Acts 19:1-5

look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless

[constance]

Did something happen to Stinker?

[Stinker]

Did something happen to Stinker?

ChurchofChrist and I had tried to get a one-on-one debate in the Denominational Debate section but it did not work out. So I agreed to debate the issue of water salvation here.

[Stinker]

This is for Stinker...

First I would like to say that everything I say I will back up with scripture. First thing we must remember is that anything man says is worthless we must go by what God teaches in the Bible. Some might say that the Apostles were just men so why listen to them and that we should just listen to the teachings of Jesus alone. So we need to then look at 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Clearly anything written by God or the Apostles is truly from God. And it is meant to make us complete. Anyways on to baptism..

Lets look at what baptism is:

First we need to look at the word itself
The word in Greek was Baptiozw. The definition for this word is: to dip, to immerse, to submerge.
This clearly rules out any sprinkling practices

There are 7 reasons for baptism

It is a new birth/born again John 3:3-5

Needed to become a disciple Matthew 28:18-20

We are buried and Raised with Christ Romans 6:3-5

This is how are sins are forgiven Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16
Second verse uses the word wash
parallel to water

We are clothed with Christ Galations 3:27

We receive salvation Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21

We are added to Gods church Acts 2:38, Acts 2:47



Also in the Bible there are 10 stories in the New Testiment were people are converted and in all 10 they are Baptized.

1-Pentecost: Acts 2
2-Samaritans: Acts 8:12
3-Simon: Acts 8:13
4-Eunuch: Acts 8:35-40
5-Saul/Paul: Acts 9:18
6-Cornelius: Acts 10:37
7-Lydia: Acts 16:14-15
8- Jailor: Acts 16:30-34
9-Corinthians Acts 18:8
10-Ephesians: Acts 19:1-5

look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless

I wish you had been more specific with your definition. I do not agree that every one of the passages of scripture that you listed is dealing with water baptism.

[Stinker]

To avoid rehashing the same problems of past threads, which was misinterpreting what kind of baptism is being referred to in various scriptures, I want to concentrate on water baptism that was practiced by Jesus and His immediate disciples, which was the same water baptism that John the Baptist practiced.

If we could concentrate on this first, it would make things so much clearer when we get to Acts 2:38 (The day of Pentecost).

At least I think so.

[WesWoodell]

Why not add to thousands of posts that already exist on this topic?

http://www.christianforums.com/t909365-do-you-believe-baptism-is-essential-for-salvation.html

:P

[Stinker]

Why not add to thousands of posts that already exist on this topic?

http://www.christianforums.com/t909365-do-you-believe-baptism-is-essential-for-salvation.html

:P

Because ChurchofChrist and I agreed to discuss the issue and to discuss it here. I did not think it would bother anyone here, and maybe ChurchofChrist thought the same.

[Frame1520]

Stinker, why is it so important to disprove water baptism as essential for salvation? Just curious.

[WesWoodell]

When I first joined this forum, Stinker was one of the most adamant proponents of water baptism for the remission of sins. Not anymore though. :scratch:

[ChurchofChrist]

Ok i'm fine with starting with Jesus and John the Baptist what verses are you talking about specifically?

[Stinker]

Ok ChrurchofChrist:

John 3:22 (New International Version)


John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.
23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.


26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

John 4

Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John,
------------------------------------


When Jesus water baptized His immediate disciples, who in turn water baptized more disciples than John, is it your understanding that they water baptized 'in the name of' (by the authority of) Jesus Christ, and that it was the water baptism of repentance?

[ChurchofChrist]

Absolutly. Whenever baptism is used in the Bible is talking about the washing away of sins. Lets go back…

John 3:3 “ Jesus answered and said to him, “ Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 “ Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you unless one is born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:7 “ Do not marvel at what I said to you, You must be born again.”

Jesus had to repeat 3 times that you must be baptized to be saved and enter the Kingdom of God here. Our sins must be washed away and that’s what Jesus is referring to when the Bible says born again, we are starting anew life in Christ.

As far as the baptizing in the name of like you stated I absolutely belive it to be true. If we look at John 3:5 we see “born of water and SPIRIT” same as today when we are baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

This passage takes place earlier than the verses you quoted so therefore the baptism that is refered to in the later verses would be same as stated here.

[Stinker]

Absolutly. Whenever baptism is used in the Bible is talking about the washing away of sins. Lets go back…

John 3:3 “ Jesus answered and said to him, “ Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 “ Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you unless one is born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:7 “ Do not marvel at what I said to you, You must be born again.”

Jesus had to repeat 3 times that you must be baptized to be saved and enter the Kingdom of God here. Our sins must be washed away and that’s what Jesus is referring to when the Bible says born again, we are starting anew life in Christ.

As far as the baptizing in the name of like you stated I absolutely belive it to be true. If we look at John 3:5 we see “born of water and SPIRIT” same as today when we are baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

This passage takes place earlier than the verses you quoted so therefore the baptism that is refered to in the later verses would be same as stated here.

ChurchofChrist:

You do realize that when John the Baptist, Jesus & His immediate disciples, all were water baptizing, that it was a water baptism of repentance....not a water baptism of remission of sins.

You did agree with me in your last post that the water baptism that these 3 were administering was a water baptism of repentance.

[holo]

Would your earthly father demand you got baptised in order for him to recognize you as his son? Think about it.

[GK]

Mod Note:
Just a friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderator: Only RM members should be debating/discussing in this thread. If you aren't RM, you are welcome to engage in fellowship and to ask questions, but not to answer questions or debate.

[Lynn73]

This is for Stinker...

First I would like to say that everything I say I will back up with scripture. First thing we must remember is that anything man says is worthless we must go by what God teaches in the Bible. Some might say that the Apostles were just men so why listen to them and that we should just listen to the teachings of Jesus alone. So we need to then look at 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Clearly anything written by God or the Apostles is truly from God. And it is meant to make us complete. Anyways on to baptism..

Lets look at what baptism is:

First we need to look at the word itself
The word in Greek was Baptiozw. The definition for this word is: to dip, to immerse, to submerge.
This clearly rules out any sprinkling practices

There are 7 reasons for baptism

It is a new birth/born again John 3:3-5

Needed to become a disciple Matthew 28:18-20

We are buried and Raised with Christ Romans 6:3-5

This is how are sins are forgiven Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16
Second verse uses the word wash
parallel to water

We are clothed with Christ Galations 3:27

We receive salvation Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21

We are added to Gods church Acts 2:38, Acts 2:47



Also in the Bible there are 10 stories in the New Testiment were people are converted and in all 10 they are Baptized.

1-Pentecost: Acts 2
2-Samaritans: Acts 8:12
3-Simon: Acts 8:13
4-Eunuch: Acts 8:35-40
5-Saul/Paul: Acts 9:18
6-Cornelius: Acts 10:37
7-Lydia: Acts 16:14-15
8- Jailor: Acts 16:30-34
9-Corinthians Acts 18:8
10-Ephesians: Acts 19:1-5

look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless

Could you clarify? I want to make sure I undersand what you're saying. Do you hold the same belief as Catholicism does that being immersed in water/baptized saves?

[JacobHall86]

Thief on the Cross wasnt baptised. Jesus told him that He would be in Paradise with Christ.

Either you dont have to be Baptised to be saved, OR Jesus was a liar.

I'm choosing that you dont have to be baptised to be saved.

[ChurchofChrist]

Could you clarify? I want to make sure I undersand what you're saying. Do you hold the same belief as Catholicism does that being immersed in water/baptized saves?
The Catholics believe in sprinkling no immersion

[ChurchofChrist]

Thief on the Cross wasnt baptised. Jesus told him that He would be in Paradise with Christ.

Either you dont have to be Baptised to be saved, OR Jesus was a liar.

I'm choosing that you dont have to be baptised to be saved.
Jesus has the right to do whatever he wants. The thief wasn’t in a position to be baptized at that point. If he was somewhere else I’m sure Jesus would have had him be baptized. This one occasion where Jesus officially said you would saved dosent rule out the rest of the scripture. There is no way to over look John 3:3

[Frame1520]

Mod Note:

Just a friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderator: Only RM members should be debating/discussing in this thread. If you aren't RM, you are welcome to engage in fellowship and to ask questions, but not to answer questions or debate.

Just thought this was worth re-posting. This thread may need a lock on it.

[Randi]

The thing about it is, it isn't BAPTISM that saves you. What saves you is having faith enough to be baptized because that's what God has said to do. What saves you is obedient belief- knowing that when you come up out of the water you'll be saved because that's what God told you.

If God had instead told us to climb a tree for the forgiveness of sins, we would most certainly do it. But it would be the obedience that saved us, not climbing a tree in and of itself. Does that make sense?

So yes, baptism is essential for salvation because we must have obedient belief. God said do it, we need to accept that and do it. :)

[GK]

Mod Note:
Just a friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderator: Only RM members should be debating/discussing in this thread. If you aren't RM, you are welcome to engage in fellowship and to ask questions, but not to answer questions or debate.

The thread is now closed. Congregational forums are not places for inter-denominational debates. At first, I was going to remove the posts by non-RM members, until I saw the original post was designed to ask for a non-RM member to give input. I should have caught that earlier and brought it to your attention.

This this discussion might be better held in the Denominational Formal Debates (http://www.christianforums.com/f182-denominational-formal-debates.html) forum. Check out some of the threads there and see if that would work. You could also post it in the theology forums or go to private message if it's meant to be a discussion between two people.