Sabbath

[Extirpated Wildlife]

I am curious what most people do on the Sabbath?

[Blindfaith]

This is a GREAT question quizzler, thanks for asking it!!

**Oh, Pray4Israel, where are you?**

[Pray4Isrel]

Quizzler,
Excellent question, my friend.

The Sabbath is a time to set all aside to rest in the Lord. On Sabbath or "Shabbat" (hebrew for sabbath) we worship the Lord by bringing Him our "offerings" of time, of our energy and our tithes. The Lord, since creation, has created this perfect balance where we all actually need a day of rest. A day to relax and be with family. A day to spend time unhindered with our Savior. A day away from our daily tasks to sit and talk with God, to read His Holy Word and to fellowship with others that love Him. The Sabbath is a day to look forward to.

[Stormy]

Ok so while everyone one is resting... who is watching the children... changing the diapers... cooking the meals... doing the dishes... etc. etc.?

[Pray4Isrel]

We don't forsake our duties - we make time to be with one another and not go to the office, or go do what we do every other day of the week. This day is to be a special day. (per God's commandment)

[Pray4Isrel]

To some degree we all have to determine how to set aside a day for the Lord. Am I saying we cannot take care of our kids, go hungry from not cooking dinner? No. I am saying we need to set aside shabbat to honor God. we go to God's house and we worship Him.

This story of Jesus visiting with Mary and Martha helps encourage me about my priorities:

Luk 10:38 Now as they were traveling along, He entered a village; and a woman named Martha welcomed Him into her home.
Luk 10:39 She had a sister called Mary, who was seated at the Lord's feet, listening to His word.
Luk 10:40 But Martha was distracted with all her preparations; and she came up to Him and said, "Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone ? Then tell her to help me."
Luk 10:41 But the Lord answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;
Luk 10:42 but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."


I am quite a busy woman and have a very demanding job. I can usually think of a million things I could do on the sabbath to catch up. But I set aside these things to be with God. Both my husband and I are restored so that when we go to our offices on Monday we get more work done because we are rested.

[Blindfaith]

For instance P4I, having a day at home with no running around to do, no television, reading scripture with the family, and basically focusing our full attention to God whereas during the week we're distracted with the "stuff"?

 

[Pray4Isrel]

Totally true, Blindfaith.
A day away from the routine of going to work, rushing home, etc, etc, etc.
I love to spend time with my husband and have a nice dinner after church and just relax, catch up on some devotional time with God, etc.

[Blindfaith]

Perfect.  A day of rest which the Lord wanted for us, because He knew that we needed it, even while He keeps working for us :)

Rest, Refresh, Renew

[seebs]

I relax, sleep in, and spend some time with my family.

[aggie03]

I was wondering what day you all are referring to when you say "sabbath". Do you all mean Sunday or Saturday?

[Pray4Isrel]

Technically I believe the Sabbath to be Friday evening to Saturday evening. I go to Messianic synagogue friday as well as church on Sunday.

[aggie03]

That's what I was hoping you would say, for I truly believe that to be the Sabbath that is defined in the Bible. There are those who would say that the Lord has redefined Sabbath to mean Sunday, but I disagree with that. I do believe, however, through the New Covenant that we are no longer commanded to observe the Sabbath, but to gather together with other Christians on the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, Sunday.

Maybe a new thread should be opened concerning this, but I am wondering (innocent questioning in the pursuit of the knowledge of what you believe) why you still attend worhsip service on the Sabbath? Also, why do you feel compelled to attend on Sunday as well? Do you believe that we are still commanded to worship on the Sabbath, or do you just choose to go because you like it? Do you believe that we are commanded to worhsip on Sunday?

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by aggie03
That's what I was hoping you would say, for I truly believe that to be the Sabbath that is defined in the Bible. There are those who would say that the Lord has redefined Sabbath to mean Sunday, but I disagree with that. I do believe, however, through the New Covenant that we are no longer commanded to observe the Sabbath, but to gather together with other Christians on the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, Sunday.

Maybe a new thread should be opened concerning this, but I am wondering (innocent questioning in the pursuit of the knowledge of what you believe) why you still attend worhsip service on the Sabbath? Also, why do you feel compelled to attend on Sunday as well? Do you believe that we are still commanded to worship on the Sabbath, or do you just choose to go because you like it? Do you believe that we are commanded to worhsip on Sunday?

Shalom, Aggie!

I attend both worship services not because I have to but because I want to.  I love my Messianic brothers and sisters as well as my Gentile brothers and sisters.  Until a day comes where we can all worship together, I will go to both because I find fulfillment in both atmospheres.  We are not commanded to worship on Sunday, but we are commanded to keep the Sabbath (Shabbat).  Therefore, I believe the technical Shabbat is Friday evening to Saturday evening.  But I still go to church to be in fellowship with others.  It's kinda strange, I know.  But I believe part of my calling is to somehow inform both Jew and Gentile of the person that holds us all together: Yeshua.  I want to help bridge the gap of the animosity between the two.  This was part of my ministry in Israel.  I also hold a Passover every year for churches so that they may learn of their Jewish roots and how they are grafted in.

So, after asking me all those questions :) what about you?  What do you view the Sabbath to be? 

[aggie03]

Sorry for the delay in my replying - finals have just started up and I'm trying to balance all of that with work. Needless to say, things have been a little less than sedate. All right, enough of my sob story and on to the reply!

As far as the Sabbath is concerned I don't disagree with you at all! I believe that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and according to the pattern that the ancient Jews followed (modern I'm assuming as well based on your previous comments) that it begins on what I would call Friday at sunset and ends on what I would call Saturday at sunset. This is the Sabbath that the faithful Jews had observed all through the Old Testament, and this is the Sabbath that Christ observed while He was alive under the Old Covenant.

Have you - well, I guess anyone who reads this post - been running into many people who try to tell you otherwise? A few people whom I have spoken with have tried to explain to me why Christians meet on the first day of the week rather than the seventh, and in doing so they try to tell me that God has moved the Sabbath to the first day of the week. Sound familar at all? Or am I just running into a minority?

Before I go on any further, and to keep the posts from becoming miles long at a time, I'll leave it at that for now.

I hope that all are having a wonderful day!

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by aggie03
Sorry for the delay in my replying - finals have just started up and I'm trying to balance all of that with work. Needless to say, things have been a little less than sedate. All right, enough of my sob story and on to the reply!

As far as the Sabbath is concerned I don't disagree with you at all! I believe that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and according to the pattern that the ancient Jews followed (modern I'm assuming as well based on your previous comments) that it begins on what I would call Friday at sunset and ends on what I would call Saturday at sunset. This is the Sabbath that the faithful Jews had observed all through the Old Testament, and this is the Sabbath that Christ observed while He was alive under the Old Covenant.

Have you - well, I guess anyone who reads this post - been running into many people who try to tell you otherwise? A few people whom I have spoken with have tried to explain to me why Christians meet on the first day of the week rather than the seventh, and in doing so they try to tell me that God has moved the Sabbath to the first day of the week. Sound familar at all? Or am I just running into a minority?

Before I go on any further, and to keep the posts from becoming miles long at a time, I'll leave it at that for now.

I hope that all are having a wonderful day!

Hi Aggie,

Looks like we are in agreement!

I run into many who try to tell me otherwise but they have no Biblical reasoning for it.  It's rather frustrating but I realize that there's no way I can change every church's schedule at this point.  I can just set the example.

God Bless! 

[aggie03]

I think, based upon my limited experiences in life, that the reason that most people try to explain the reason for their worship on the first day of the week rather than on the seventh, is that they don't really understand why they do what they do. I used to have this problem myself - it stemmed from the fact that I didn't ask enough questions and that I was content with believing whatever someone else would tell me. This is something that, I believe, must be safeguarded against. I think that if one would study what the Bible teaches rather than what a person, regarless of who they are, teaches.

Speaking about that (I promise that I'm going to finishe telling you what I believe soon!) what do you think about the New Testament, as far as Its inspirtation as SCripture is concerned?

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by aggie03
I think, based upon my limited experiences in life, that the reason that most people try to explain the reason for their worship on the first day of the week rather than on the seventh, is that they don't really understand why they do what they do. I used to have this problem myself - it stemmed from the fact that I didn't ask enough questions and that I was content with believing whatever someone else would tell me. This is something that, I believe, must be safeguarded against. I think that if one would study what the Bible teaches rather than what a person, regarless of who they are, teaches.

AMEN!  I completely agree that people do not question and research for themselves... too many rely on what another tells them.  I TOTALLY believe that people need to read the Word and study it and put the effort into what the Word has to say.  My number one frustration is when a fellow believer trys to tell me somthing, and when I ask them if they read it in the Bible they say no - that they "heard" it from someone else. 

Speaking about that (I promise that I'm going to finishe telling you what I believe soon!) what do you think about the New Testament, as far as Its inspirtation as SCripture is concerned?

No hurry - I spend most my time on this MB so don't rush. :)

How do I feel about the New Testament and it's inspiration?  Hmmmmmm... maybe could you ask more specifically?  I think what you are asking is if I believe the NT is inspired?  Absolutely.   

[The Simple Plan]

On my Sabbath I try to find out what God meant to keep his day holy. In terms of my activity most friday nights I conduct a youth bible study at my house, spend Saturday morning at church and then take time in the afternoon either teaching gospel singing, doing community service or spending time with my family alone and in nature.

Some sabbaths I fast and pray just to spend that time with God alone listening to what he says to my heart. It is beautiful to shut off all that which is secular and focus on God for one day a week, whether in church, at home, with my "youth", in nature.

As one author summed it up for me, it is a pause for peace.

God is my strength :clap:
Dave

p.s. I am SDA does that count in this thread???!!! :rolleyes:

[dignitized]

Ungers defines holy as seperated unto God. Shouldn't a Christian keep EVERY day holy?

Question for the sabbatarians: do you keep Sabbath years as well as Sabbath days?

[The Simple Plan]

I thought the question was how and not why. But for the record no I do not keep Sabbath years. Does keeping the Sabbath day pose a problem?

AGAPE

Dave

[dignitized]

simple plan: only if you wish to insist that Sunday worship is wrong.

[dignitized]

So you only keep part of the Sabbath command?

[SonWorshipper]

Br. Max, why do you think that the first day of the week, Sun day is correct?

The Sabbath was not started when the Lord gave Moses or the Tribes of Israel His commandments, it was started on the FIRST seventh day. See Gen 2:2-3 There fore I don't consider it a totally Jewish law, it was a law for all creation.

[dignitized]

son worship: all I'm saying is if you are going to claim to "keep the sabbath" you need to keep it ALL which includes SABBATH YEARS.

BTW - there is no where recorded in Law of God, the 613 Mitzvahs of the OT that man is to worship on Saturday. :) If you like I can post again a Rabbinical website which lists the 613 mitzvahs of the OT.

Now to answer what you asked me, I have to say NO. I do not think sunday only is correct. I know that we are to worship God EVERY DAY in every way :D

[SonWorshipper]

But you don't think that one day should be kept Holy to Him? To pull away from the world and closer to him without the every day things getting in the way?

And I don't think that Saturday would be mentioned, nor Sunday, monday, those are man-made terms. The Lord said the Seventh day.

I think that on the seventh day when we draw closer to him and put our full attention on him for those 24 or so hours that it readies us for that Shabbat rest to come, in Messiah's kingdom!

[dignitized]

No son I do not think ONE day should be holy unto Him. I think EVERY day should he holy unto Him. No where in the OT does it command that we worship him on ONE day of the week over another. As a Christian, with Christ in my heart I am a living Tabernacle and should conduct myself accordingly EVERY day of the week :). Every thing I do every day of teh week is with full attention on Him and His kingdom. However, if you want to pick one day of the week for wporship, why not pick the 8th day. its far more important than the 7th. The 8th day has been the day of Christian worship from the dawn of the church.

[dignitized]

But AGAIN - I ask - how can you claim to be keeping hte Sabbath of the Lord if you only remember the 7th day of the week and IGNORE the 7th Year? The sabbatical years is just as important to keeping the sabbath as the 7th day.

[The Simple Plan]

The seventh day was blessed, made holy and set apart at Creation. To his chosen people at Sinai, God reminded them that he wanted them to share in this holiness and not to engage in secular labour and embodied this in the fourth commandment. This was written on stone by God.

Moses then wrote ceremmonial and civil laws, commonly known as the law of Moses which was applicable specifically to Israel. The former pointing them in ceremony and sacrifice to the soon coming Jesus. The latter defiining laws of behaviour within the Jewish community. The ceremmonial and civil laws were then nailed to the cross.

Sabbath years and sabbath days are two different issues. God asked Israel to observe the first as part of ceremony pointing to the Messiah, the latter, not as a day of worship, but as a day to keep holy. Jesus even reiterated that the Sabbath was made for man. Why? So he could commune with God without the six day cares that usually surrounded him. That Jesus held this up along with the apostles makes for a good enough argument that it was not abrogated at the Cross.

For a side note, in Matt 24 when Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem which would happen some 40 odd years after his ascension, why would he warn his disciples that he wished their flight would not be in winter or the sabbath, if in his divine wisdom he knew that it was not a day that they should be keeping holy anymore, or that it's importance would be shifted to another day?

I am but a pilgrim.
Dave

[SonWorshipper]

I totally agree with you Dave. Yeshua never changed the Sabbath day, Constantine did. I choose to go by God's time that He Himself appointed, not a man's especially since it was done to "change times".

[repentandbelieve]

P4I,  If a person is a police officer or a nurse in a hospital, is it wrong for them to work on the Sabbath?

Jesus observed the Sabbath yet he was accused by the religious leaders as being a Sabbath breaker.

[dignitized]

sonworshiper: actually, the Church has always met on the 8th day to celebrate the Lords supper and to baptize.

As for the LAWS - there are 613 mitzvahs given by GOD in the OT. ALL are God given - each and every one. Funny how in the 613 mitzvahs there is no where listed a command to worship on the sabbath day . . . But i fyou want to worship on Saturday I have no problem with that. Like I said - I worship God every day. :) I alot remember God every day - and only do secular work M-F. Of ocurse, I do do Gods work EVERY DAY :)

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by repentandbelieve
P4I,  If a person is a police officer or a nurse in a hospital, is it wrong for them to work on the Sabbath?

Jesus observed the Sabbath yet he was accused by the religious leaders as being a Sabbath breaker.

Excellent question!

I believe that we need these very important people to help our society function (nurses, firemen, etc.)  I think that if one has such an honorable job as these, that they can celebrate the sabbath on a different day.  My sister is a nurse and works most weekends, so she finds another day to rest in the Lord and worship Him as well as to fellowship with other believers. It's the heart that matters.  In Christ there is freedom and we no longer need to be condemned because He has made us justified!

God Bless!

[The Simple Plan]

If a person is a police officer or a nurse in a hospital, is it wrong for them to work on the Sabbath?

One of the amazing things about Jesus teaching on the sabbath was the role of Sabbath being made for man. For man to take time apart with God in holiness. It is noted that Jesus healed  a crippled hand on the Sabbath, he told a lame man to pick up his bed on the Sabbath. Why? Those people could worship God and once again see his creative, protective and healing presence on the day. Those in community services, health, emergency, neccesity all perform a duty for their fellow man. This is not a labour, it is a vocation (a poorly paid one at that!!!LOL). I chose to believe that as a business man I can take out one day for God because he will bless me regardless. I don't need to labour!! This is what God has shown me, it may be different for others.

Another thing we notice is that Jesus was accused of being a law breaker according to the oral tradition. Those things of healing, disciples threshing corn, etc. as mentioned in the gospels are not defined in the Old Testament, rather they were part of the Mishnah, the then unwritten rules defined by Rabbinical leaders of the day.

One other thought. If Jesus felt that the Sabbath was to be changed and no longer be holy (Does God ever change?), he would have, like all the other things he redefined/clarified, at least mentioned it or done something about it in his life time??. The same goes for the apostles!!!

I am but a pilgrim
Dave :clap:

 

[dignitized]

Scripture records that Christ was arrested because he BROKE the Sabbath in the eyes of the Pharasitical Jews. He did not conform to their notion of what a sabbath should be. He left a clear example concerning His view of the sabbath.


The Apostles yes were in attendace upon the Sinagogues on Saturdays to preach the gospel of Christ to the Lost. But when it came time to gather together as Christians - for the Lords Supper and baptism, etc. - it was the 8th day that they celebrated :) and gathered to worship God

[The Simple Plan]

Br. Max

Am enjoying our discourse so far. Could you show me where the Bible suggests that the apostles were always together celebrating the Lord's Supper and baptism on the 1st (8th?) day of the week?

Dave

[dignitized]

Simple plan:

I'll do you one better, I'll show you in a document that predates much of the NT that the 8th day was the day of Christian fellowship. :) I do not claim that this text is inspired or on par with scripture, but there is no denying the historicity of the text. :) In the Epistle of Barnabas, 70AD, we read: Wherefore we Christians keep the eighth day for joy, on which also Jesus arose from the dead and when he appeared ascended into heaven. Also in the Didache – or Teachings of the Twelve Apostles 65 AD, 14:1 But on the Lord's day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure.


But to be fair, I will also give for you scripture towards the 8th day worship for the church. After Acts 18 there is no mention of the Sabbath in the Scripture (with the exception of Colossians 2:16, which shows the Sabbath abolished the dispensation of Grace). After the crucifixion and resurrection, the Church met on the first day of the week. Luke 24:11, John 10:19, Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Revelation 1:10 all indicate the Believers met on the 8th day, 8 being the number of new beginning, resurrection in Bible numerology.

In both cases it is clear that The Lord’s Day i.e. the 8th day was the day of Christian observance. Now I know what your next argument will be. That the Lord’s Day is just another way of saying Sabbath day. I cannot agree. If Paul or John had meant SABBATH as good Jewish boys they would have said Sabbath. They instead choose to differentiate between the two and the Anti-Nicean Fathers all agree that Lord’s Day meant 8th day. :) which leaves the claim that Sabbath = Lord’s Day without an Historic Leg to stand on.


I again will offer you a list of the 613 Mitzvahs of the Jewish Law. I ask you to find in the Mitzvahs one which dictates a set day of the week for worship. :) Mind you, this is from a JEWISH website and is composed by a JEWISH Rabbi so if anyone knows the JEWISH law it will be the Jews!! http://www.mnment.com/judaism/613.php

[The Simple Plan]

Br Max thank you for your response.

 Now I know what your next argument will be. That the Lord’s Day is just another way of saying Sabbath day. I cannot agree.

I was not going to allude to such a thing. I will tomorrow (it is late just came back from a carol service in London) put forward the view that the term Lord's Day was only ever mentioned in one passage of scripture.

Before I do go to bed however I point out the fact that the Sabbath was set apart as holy twice by God in scripture. This was never the case with Sunday. Scripture states that the Sabbath is a day to keep holy, not a day of worship. I have no problem with people worshipping on Sunday, I do this myself sometimes even. Also the Apocrypha is poetic literature to me and has no inspirational bearing.

The Colossians 2:16 text cannot be fully used as an argument to abrograte keeping the Sabbath holy. The context here is that Gentiles should not feel that there Christianity should be measured by the means to observe Jewish custom.

Forgive me but I will have to resume this tomorrow. Thank you for your points in the meantime and God bless

God is My Strength :clap:
Dave

[SonWorshipper]

Br. Max, why do you think that the first day of the week, Sun day is correct?The Sabbath was not started when the Lord gave Moses or the Tribes of Israel His commandments, it was started on the FIRST seventh day. See Gen 2:2-3 There fore I don't consider it a totally Jewish law, it was a law for all creation.



 

Genesis 2 : 2 - 3 (KJV)

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

[dignitized]

sonworship: are you saying the resrection of Christ did not Sanctify the 8th day?

AGAIN, The scriture tells us to remember the sabbath. WHY? Because of what GOD did. Welp, Let me ask you this - as a believer, do you not have GOD dwelling within your own heart? As a Believer, should you not rmember GOD everyday and keep everyday holy unto Him?? :)

I have no issue with people who want to worship on the sabbath. I think its contrary to what the church has always done - but hey whats 2000 years of history?? :)

[The Simple Plan]

Sorry I took so long Br Max but here is my final response to the Sabbath issue. I pray that you do not find this curt or an insult and understand that this is my understanding from my own study of this issue. I am not sure how Messianic Jews or other Sabbatarians but this is from my own prayerful study of this subject.

One of the things from both a Jewish and Christian Sabbatarian research point of view is to look at the institution of Sabbath at Eden. It is written in a chiasmic (no I have not been to theology school) form. Follow me if you will!!

(Creative) By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing
  (Ceased Creation)so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
    (Setting Apart) And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy
  (Ceased Creation)because on it he rested from all the work
(Creative) of creating that he had done

Using Hebrew parallelism, an issue lost in some "Bible" translations, there is a central focus in the text, ie. the setting apart. If God never changes then we have to ask why he went through so much trouble to (barak) bless, (qadas) make holy or sanctify the seventh day. The context of this parallelism also suggest that this blessing and making holy is continuous, so we must ask when did God abrogate this and why would he?

The arguments against continuous observance of the Sabbath hinge mainly on Col 2:14-17 and Hebrews 3:7-4:13. This also in light of the fact that Jesus kept the Sabbath, indeed showed Israel how it was to be observed, the apostles observed it and Jesus warned his disciples that it would be better for them not to get caught on the hop in winter or on the Sabbath, a prediction of the destruction of Jersualem some 40 years after his ressurrection.

Rather than going into the grammatical plural/singualr interpretation of sabbaton the word for Sabbath used in these texts first I would like to look at the context and the audience for these texts.

Col 2:14-17 was a warning for the Gentiles not to be judged by items which were a shadow of things to come. Food, drink, new moons, festivals and Sabbath days. The argument will rage till Christ comes but if one reads Isaiah 1:11-14 we see the same instruction against ceremony taking the place of true worship of the heart. See Hosea 2:11 for even further qualification on context.

Hebrews 3:7- 4:13 To the Hebrew audience, to suggest that a metaphorical interpretation of Sabbath rest ended the day God made holy at Creation, is a rather myopic view of this text. Does the term "another day" mean we can worship any old day? Or is the reference to Joshua at Meribah once again lending to the metaphor ?

In love I suggest that we really think why Jesus claimed Lordship of the Sabbath while here on earth, observed the Sabbath and led by example whilst here, and that the apostles did so as well. If they were going to change the divine mandate would it not have been expressly done ? Why did Paul bother worshipping on the Sabbath if it were no longer important to him? He was very outspoken.

In conclusion we could bible box about this until kingdom come, but for those who do observe the Sabbath we need to ask ourselves the question. What does it mean to keep it holy? Is it a day of communion between God and us ? How can I apply Jesus observance of this day to my life and my family?

If you don't believe the Sabbath is still binding then hey, you are entitled to your opinion, and your exegetes on the respective texts you used to support it.

May God guide us both into his wisdom and I will leave you with a promise and indication of a final rest for which the Sabbath means me to. In Isaiah 52:2-8 God encourages through the prophet his people not to profane his Sabbath and to encourage foeigners and eunuchs to share in the joy of this holy day...but for me here is the crunch.

"call the Sabbath a delight, and the holy day of the Lord honourable...you shall take delight in the Lord...for the mouth of the Lord has spoken" Isa 58:13-14 (how I have taken it!!)

God bless you
Dave  :clap:

[dignitized]

The following is from The Bible and the Liturgy, written by Cdl. Jean Danielou, S.J.:

First, Cdl. Danielou quotes St. Ambrose, Bishop of Milan who died in A.D. 397 - (speaking of the Church of St. Thecla in Milan) "'It is fitting that the hall of Holy Baptism should be built according to this number, which is that in which the People obtained true salvation in the light of the Risen Christ.'"

"The number 8 was, for ancient Christianity, the symbol of the Resurrection, for it was on the day after the Sabbath, and so the eighth day, that Christ rose from the tomb. Furthermore, the seven days of the week are the image of the time of this world, and the eighth day of life everlasting [this understanding was also that of the Jews]. Sunday is the liturgical commemoration of this eighth day, and so at the same time a memorial of the Resurrection and a prophecy of the world to come. Into this eighth day, inaugurated by Christ, the Christian enters by his Baptism. We are in the presence of a very ancient baptismal symbolism, to which it may well be that St. Peter alludes in his first Epistle (3:20) - 'In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now ...)', and which occurs frequently in ancient Christianity."

The Greek for the Lord's Day is kyriake hemera - the day on which the seer of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) came under the inspiration of the spirit (Rev.1:10). This is the earliest reference to the dedication of a day of the week to the Lord; scarcely any other day than the first day (or the 8th), the day after the Sabbath, can be meant by it. It was "the Lord's Day" as the day on which He rose (Mt. 28:1; Mk 16:1; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1). He writes of this experience happening on a specific day; i.e., the Lord's Day, Sunday - when he, in exile, is permitted to see the Liturgy of the Church in Heaven on the day of the Church's Liturgy on earth.

Contrast the Sabbath to "The Day of the Lord" in both OT and NT: the Day on which God would manifest Himself in His Power and Glory in cosmic convulsions, He would overturn all the enemies of Israel and establish His own people supreme. The New Testament follows this with Jesus speaking of 'my day" in John 8:56, signifying the day of His manifestation as Judge. Also see Lk 17:24-30 "the Day of the Son of Man", and in 2 Peter 3:12 "The day of God on which the heavens shall be destroyed and elements melted in flames to be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth, etc....the day which will come like a thief in the night (1 Th. 5:2,4; the Day which will manifest the works of each one, to be tried by fire (1 Co. 3:13).

That the earliest Christians met on Sunday was facilitated by the teachings of the early Gentile converts such as Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st Century bishop and friend of Polycarp; and the disciple of St. John the Apostle himself!). In his Letter to the Magnesians (9,10), St. Ignatius writes:

"If then those who have walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, ******no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also rose through Him and attained unto belief*****, and for this cause we endure patiently, if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him?...It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to ****practice Judaism****. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, wherein every tongue believed and was gathered together unto God."

This was written in 107 A.D. ...less than a decade after the last Apostle's death! ...And Ignatius is writing to churches throughout Asia Minor - churches populated with people who also knew the Apostles!

Therefore, despite the Adventists' claims, it is not at some later Council that created the Sunday Sabbath. Rather, it was there from the beginning.

And so, like the Trinity itself, it was only confirmed and re-enforced at the Councils. That is the purpose of Councils, to set out what is the Tradition and proper belief.

Also I offer -

IMPORTANCE OF EIGTH DAY

Almost without exception, the bris must be done on eight day of the baby's life. What is the significance of the eighth day?

The world was created in seven days. Beyond the physical world – beyond seven days – is the eighth day, which represents the metaphysical, the spiritual. Since bris symbolizes taking the physical and elevatiing it to serve G-d, bris is done on the eighth day, a day that represents a level beyond physicality. Similarly, another explanation is that the number eight is composed of seven and one. Seven represents the world, which was created in seven days. One represents the one G-d who created this world. Eight, therefore symbolizes G-d's absolute sovereignty over His world, and our service to Him. It is befitting then that the bris milah a commandment which reminds us that life's purpose is to use the physical gifts that G-d gave us to serve Him, is performed on the eighth day.

The number eight appears in many places in Judaism. Hannukah is a celebration of the Jewish Peoples victory over the Greeks, a nation whose ultimate goal was to extinguish spirituality. It is no wonder that the oil in the Menorah miraculously burned for eight days, since the number eight represents spirituality. Other examples of significant eights include the eight special garments the kohen gadol (High Priest) wore when serving in the Temple and the eight strands of the four corners attached to the corners of the Tallis (prayer shawl).


Having the bris on the eighth day is so important that it even overrides the Shabbos. "Cutting" is forbidden on the Shabbos, yet if the eighth day falls on Shabbos, the bris is still done.

A notable exception to the "eighth day" rule is when a baby is ill. Often newborns are jaundiced and the bris is postponed until the baby is healthy. My father makes frequent house calls a few days before the bris to see whether the baby is "yellow" (Jaundiced babies usually have a yellow tinge to their skin that an expert can recognize.) After twenty years of checking babies, my father is as proficient in seeing whether a baby is jaundiced as most doctors.

As soon as the baby becomes healthy enough for the bris, it is done as soon as possible because one should be quick to perform a mitzvah. (However, once the eighth day has passed, the bris cannot be done on Shabbos. Only a bris taking place on the eighth day can override the Shabbos.)
from the website http://www.torahview.com/

[SonWorshipper]

The world was created in seven days?

Br Max, if the Sabbath were to be changed don't you think that Yeshua might have mentioned that after his rescerection and being with the disciples many times during the 40 days before he arose to heaven? Don't you think that the leaders of the first century church would have made sure that was certainly understood at that time? Why is it that Constantine changed his pagan day of sol invictus to the only day of worship for the newly accepted Empirical religion?

[Martin]

I'd like to put a slightly different slant on all this......

The Bible tells us that in six days God created the world, etc., and on the seventh day He rested (at the risk of causing another debate within a debate - I think He is still resting). Now, God didn't rest because he was tired. So why did He rest? I believe that He rested to enjoy what He had created. The sabbath or shabbat is called a day of rest. We are called to enter into God's rest - for me this means, enjoying God, His salvation and enjoying the things we have done. It's an interesting bible study to read up on "rest", specifically God's Rest.

Secondly, we tend to get hung up on leagalism, because we feel safe in legalism and in essence that's why God gave the laws in the first place - for us to feel and be safe. So, sorry if this upsets some people, but I believe in the principle set by God, that one day in seven should be for rest and quite frankly, whether this is Friday, Saturday or Sunday doesn't matter to me. What matters is that I take a day to enter into rest.

Now, I love God every day, I commune with God every day, I worship God every day, and I try as best as I can within this fallen world to keep each day Holy - set apart unto Him. So, for me, the day I keep, is not for any of these reasons, but simply to rest. Specifically, to rest in Him.

Shalom and receive the blessing of God upon your life....
Martin

[dignitized]

Originally posted by sonworshipper
Br Max, if the Sabbath were to be changed don't you think that Yeshua might have mentioned that after his rescerection and being with the disciples many times during the 40 days before he arose to heaven? Don't you think that the leaders of the first century church would have made sure that was certainly understood at that time? Why is it that Constantine changed his pagan day of sol invictus to the only day of worship for the newly accepted Empirical religion?

 

UM, first of all the scriptures say that not every word the Lord said was recorded :)(john 21:25)

 

As far as the 1st century church goes - it was WELL understood LONG before the time of Constentine who only made Sunday a CIVIC day of rest. The Lords day was already LONG in observance :) read the writings of any of the church fathers on the matter and it's plain to see.

 

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure."
Didache,14(A.D. 70)

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master"
Ignatius,To the Magnesians,9:1(A.D. 110),

"The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest--abstraction from ills--preparing for the Primal Day,[ie. The Lord's Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth--a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest."
Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:16(A.D. 202),

"In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practised circumcision, and were thus rendered "friends of God." For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God."
Tertullian,An answer to the Jews,2(A.D. 203),

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation: because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven."
Teaching of the Apostles,2(A.D. 225),

"Hence it is not possible that the rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh of our God; on the contrary, it is our Saviour who, after the pattern of His own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of His death, and hence also of His resurrection."
Origen,Commentary on John,2:27(A.D. 229),

 

NOTICE please that ALL of these men wrote BEFORE the alleged date of COnstentines change of the sabbath :)

 

 

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Martin

Now, I love God every day, I commune with God every day, I worship God every day, and I try as best as I can within this fallen world to keep each day Holy - set apart unto Him.

 

I've already and will continue to make this point :) The problem with most Sabbath advocators is that they INSIST that we should worship on Saturday.  They INSIST that that is what God wants and commands in scriptures.  Funny though how The Jews in the 613 mitzvahs of the TOTAL law say nothing about the Sabbath being the day of Gods commanded worship :)

[Charles YTK]

BOOK THREE: THE BOOK OF SEASONS

Laws of the Sabbath

87 To rest on the seventh day Ex. 23:12
88 Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day Ex. 20:10
89 The court must not inflict punishment on Shabbat Ex. 35:3
90 Not to walk outside the city boundary on Shabbat Ex. 16:29
91 To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdallah Ex. 20:8



Laws of Eruvin (Rabbinical)


Laws of Yom Kippur Rest

92 To rest from prohibited labor Lev. 23:32
93 Not to do prohibited labor on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:32
94 To afflict yourself on Yom Kippur Lev. 16:29
95 Not to eat or drink on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:29



Laws of Festival Rest

96 To rest on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:7
97 Not to do prohibited labor on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:8
98 To rest on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
99 Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
100 To rest on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
101 Not to do prohibited labor on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
102 To rest on Rosh Hashana Lev. 23:24
103 Not to do prohibited labor on Rosh Hashana Lev. 23:25
104 To rest on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
105 Not to do prohibited labor on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
106 To rest on Shmini Atzeret Lev. 23:36
107 Not to do prohibited labor on Shmini Atzeret Lev. 23:36

[dignitized]

charles: YUP and not once in there is there listed a command for saturday worship :)

[Charles YTK]

Nor Sunday Worship!

[Charles YTK]

On March 7, 321 A.D., the first National Sunday Law in history was issued. This was the first “blue law” to be issued by a civil government. Here is the text of this, Constantine's first Sunday law decree:

“Let all judges and townspeople and occupations of all trades rest on the venerable day of the Sun (Sunday); nevertheless, let those who are situated in the rural districts freely and with full liberty attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it so frequently happens that no other day may be so fitting for ploughing grains or trenching vineyards, lest at the time the advantage of the moment granted by the provision of heaven may be lost. Given on the Nones (seventh) of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls, each of them, for the second time.” The Code of Justinian, Book 3, title 12, law 3.

Five additional Sunday laws were to be issued by Constantine within a very few years to strengthen this, his first Sunday edict.

When Constantine was issuing his Sunday laws, was he a consistent christian? Hardly. At that very time he was embellishing the “Temple of the Sun” in Rome. In the same year that he proclaimed his first Sunday law, he made several decrees maintaining pagan practices, such as consulting with heathen priests for guidance, who would then watch the flight of birds, or cut open animals, in order to know the advice to give. All this Constantine legalized.

The very next day after giving his famous Sunday Law of March 7, 321, quoted above, Constantine made another law for pagan soothsayers. When lightning should strike a public building, the heathen prophets were to be consulted as to its meaning.

Shortly after this, the first recorded church legislation commanding Sunday was enacted at the Council of Laodicea, which convened a year or two before Constantine's death in A.D. 336.

In order to avoid the gradually intensifying persecution by church and government authorities, many humble Messianic’s tried to keep both days. They knew that the Seventh-day Sabbath was the only weekly holy day anywhere in Scripture, but at the same time, they sought to avoid trouble with the authorities. For this reason, Sozomen, a church historian of that time, tells us that many “were assembling together on the Sabbath as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.” Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chapter 19.

Sozomen lived a hundred years after the time of Constantine. Even at that late date, many local churches were still trying to keep the Sabbath of Elohim. Notice that Rome, and Alexandria were the exceptions; they totally ignored the Scriptural Sabbath.

Here is what the church historian, Socrates, who died in A.D. 440, wrote nearly a hundred years after Constantine's Sunday Law Decree was issued:

“Although almost all churches through the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Books, chapter 22.

[Charles YTK]

The first believers in Y'shua were a Jewish sect known as "Nazarenes" or in Hebrew "N'tzarim" (Acts 11:19; 24:5). The "church father" Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law." (Jerome; On. Is. 8:14). The fourth century "church father" Epiphanius gives a more detailed description:

But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.

(Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

[dignitized]

Charles: I agree. God is PROPERLY worshiped EVERYDAY of the week.

The church however , as Scripture and HISTORY both demonstrate has always gathered on the 1st day of the week for the celebration of and sharing in the Lords Supper and for baptisms, ETC. It is Sunday - THE LORD'S DAY - that the Disciples of Christ gathered themselves together.

What difference does it make if Constantine passed a law which allowed COMMON PRACTICE to be recognized?? :) He did not change anything except to make it possible for Christian to gather on the day they were already gathering without having to work BEFORE they gathered for worship.

As for the temple in Rome . . . lol what he did, was good politics. He was changing the total POLITICAL, SOCIAL, AND religious nature of the Empire. It would have been a grave mistake for him to have not shown the pagans that he was NOT hostile to them. Try not to mix the political nature of a secular leader with the religious convictions of a believer. AMERICA after all allows freedom of religion. We allow Muslims to freely practice their faith here - in times of need we even extend humanitarian aid to them. Are you aware that the religious buildings of that day were much much more than just places to worship? They were gathering places; places for the exchange of information; for the selling of goods; for education; and many other things. If Constantine had moved too fast and removed the state patronage from the temples which they were not only used to receiving but DEPENDANT upon, he would have plunged the Christian community into not only persecution but wholesale SLAUGHTER.

Your view of history is not only distorted, but positively adulterated by the misinformation of a few half-educated spiteful reactionaries. Or do you honestly believe that GOD would allow His message to be desecrated nearly 2000 years? Do not be so quick to condemn what you fail to understand.

[Charles YTK]

B Max>>>The church however , as Scripture and HISTORY both demonstrate has always gathered on the 1st day of the week for the celebration of and sharing in the Lords Supper and for baptisms, ETC

Charles >>>>Always Gathered? I have quoted the historians above. And they say clearly that only the christians of Alexandria and Rome worshipped on Sunday and that was because of some ancient mystery (Mitha worship).

[dignitized]

charles: tell me, what are your sources for this "history?" I can quote you from the church fathers - men from ALL OVER the roman world saying otherwise. what more, I can give you the names of reputable historians of all walks of life who will also attest to the Primal nature of 1st day Christian observance. who will you quote for me? Richard Rives who is a total quack?

[Charles YTK]

I quoted several above, Epiphanius, Socretes, Jerome.

[dignitized]

charels: what are your sorces for these quotes? what text or website are you pulling them from?

[ATAT]

I am a Traditional Jew (Orthodox Jew).

I'm not sure if the Traditional Jewish position has been given, but here's my contribution anyway:

Ex 31:
12 Then the LORD said to Moses,
13 "Say to the Israelites, `You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 "`Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'"


Notice that God says that the consequences of breaking the Sabbath is 'death' and that this goes on 'forever'?

For the Traditional Jew, the Sabbath laws are very important, carry the death penalty (not a real problem today because #1. we do not have the ability to carry out such a penalty and #2. the violators themselves are not responsible for their violations. #3. the court requirements for evidence are very severe so as to exclude most cases anyway)

Also for the Traditional Jew, serving God through the Sabbath laws is God's proof that we are holy to the Lord.

As for what do we do?

There are Rabbinic level laws and God level laws.

Rabbinic (the Pharisees) level requirements were authorized by God to give the Rabbis oversight.  If the Jewish people needed to keep a certain distance from certain 'works' (molochas), the Rabbis were empowered to build a 'fence' to make sure we keep a distance from breaking the all important and wonderful Shabbos.

Indeed, people who have ventured out and not kept the rabbinic laws report back that they frequently make the unintentional mistake of going too far and breaking even the Word = God's laws.

 

For instance, there is a rabbinic law we can not move match sticks (under most conditions).  Why not?  We might be forgetful, and use one to light a candle = a violation of God's law, much more severe.

There is a requirement that work (if necessary) and we prepare our food before the Sabbath begins.  This is so that we will not be put in the position of being too hungry on the Sabbath, and then forgetfully violate God's holy and beautiful Sabbath by picking grains or cooking food. 



These helpful 'Rabbinic' ('Pharisee') laws include but are not limited to:

Women must light candles Friday night.
Men must make 'kiddush' (say compliments to God) over a cup of grape juice or wine.
We do not move objects that can lead to God level prohibition.
We can not blow out a candle just to get rid of the light.  (It would be a God level law if we blew it out to improve the candle by making the wick easier to light )

 


Those above are laws from the Pharisee rabbis that we follow today.  Thank God for the rabbis, I have seen in my own daily life, as well as in others, how wise and accurate these rabbinic laws have been placed.

 
They are not based on the bible, nor are they claimed to be part of the bible, of course.  They ared are pure inventions of our beloved and wise Rabbis, may they be blessed. 

There are, more to the whole point, God level laws that we follow, such as keeping Saturday as the Sabbath from Friday sunset to about 25 hours later


We do not light a fire
We do not write with a pen
We do not ride our animals nor make them work
We do not sew garments
We do not tan leather (many related activities).

All of those are from the ORAL Tradition, passed down through the Pharisees (our beloved Rabbis, remember them for a blessing) and you won't find them in the bible.

Much much more on the subject, there's a vast Kingdom of information about how we keep the Sabbath spiritual, for us, it's the greatest holiday of the year.

We serve God with our entire lives, with our total life system.  The laws are a tool to serve = be closer to God.

We sing, we dance, we commune with our community.

A wonderful day, I can't imagine my life without it.

It brings me so much closer to my family, my community, and most importantly, my God.

 

As the beautiful Word points out, the Sabbath is a sign between God and the Jewish people [b]forever.

 

God highlights that He rests on this most holy day, so we too rest as He commanded us forever.

It is a great gift to us.

  

 

[Wonder]

We always set up a finger food day on the Sabbath....served on paper plates...no dishes ... more time and rest even for the women of the family. Anything that can be done such as laundry etc...should be done as to have nothing to do on the Sabbath. Just remember it is a day of rest and a day to enjoy...not one where you get bored etc....changing diapers etc is just ministering to the young ones. We are to serve and not to be served on that day. Enjoy your Sabbath!

[Martin]

I do as little as possible.
I believe that Shabbat means "sit down" and that's what I do.....