A Question for MJs on Romans 9-11 [Archive]

Dondi

11th April 2006, 01:41 PM

I'm with visionary. I don't know anything about dispensations - it's just that I believe that all remaining Jews will see the truth and believe. God will take off the blinders of his remnant. Probably early in the Tribulation?

I guess what I am asking is: Will they be saved through the faith of Abraham, who according to Galatians 3:6-9:

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Reasoning that Abraham, who was before the Law, believed by faith, therefore anyone who believes by faith are blessed through the faith of Abraham, who was preached before hand the Gospel. What think ye?

I'm not trying to discount the sacrifice of Yeshua the Messiah at all, nor do I believe that there is any difference in salvation between Jews or Gentiles, but the promises of God to Israel has never been revoked. Therefore, isn't it possible that those who have the faith of Abraham, might have in virtue of faith outside the Law, be equated as having faith in the Yeshua the Messiah, when the Messiah is finally revealed to the World when the blinders come off?

Have I made sense here?

shmuel

11th April 2006, 05:20 PM

I believe that the events of Zech 12:9-14 will produce the transformation. All Israel will see vs 9, then all will believe and all will mourn.

Tishri1

11th April 2006, 05:25 PM

I'm with visionary. I don't know anything about dispensations - it's just that I believe that all remaining Jews will see the truth and believe. God will take off the blinders of his remnant. Probably early in the Tribulation?They will cry out to ABBA in the name of Yeshua to save them from the Russian and Arab invasion and ABBA will miraculously defeat their enemies, then as a result they will turn as a nation to Yeshua as Messiah

When the False Messiah sees Russia's weekend state, He will attack them (and the Arabs too) and destroy their Armies trying to take the credit for Israel's redemption by proclaiming himself as Messiah and as their God.

BarbB

11th April 2006, 07:05 PM

I guess what I am asking is: Will they be saved through the faith of Abraham, who according to Galatians 3:6-9:

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

No, they will be saved by faith in Yeshua whom they will finally recognize as Messiah.

ZEC 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,

jgonz

11th April 2006, 11:08 PM

I've understood it that Abraham (and the rest of the "OT" contingent who were saved by faith) were saved by faith in the Coming Messiah... They believed in the promise of His coming... G-d said it would happen, and they believed Him.

Andyman_1970

12th April 2006, 06:24 AM

They will cry out to ABBA in the name of Yeshua to save them from the Russian and Arab invasion and ABBA will miraculously defeat their enemies, then as a result they will turn as a nation to Yeshua as Messiah

When the False Messiah sees Russia's weekend state, He will attack them (and the Arabs too) and destroy their Armies trying to take the credit for Israel's redemption by proclaiming himself as Messiah and as their God.

Where is Russia mentioned in the Bible?

Andyman_1970

12th April 2006, 06:25 AM

............... but the promises of God to Israel has never been revoked. Therefore, isn't it possible that those who have the faith of Abraham, might have in virtue of faith outside the Law, be equated as having faith in the Yeshua the Messiah, when the Messiah is finally revealed to the World when the blinders come off?

I tend to agree with this understanding of how God deals with, and will deal with the Jewish people.

Dondi

12th April 2006, 06:46 AM

I believe that the events of Zech 12:9-14 will produce the transformation. All Israel will see vs 9, then all will believe and all will mourn.

No, they will be saved by faith in Yeshua whom they will finally recognize as Messiah.

I agree that one day the Messiah will be revealed and all of Israel will come to believe. But is there a possiblilty that they are held by the faith of Abraham up until that time? Just a jgonz said:

I've understood it that Abraham (and the rest of the "OT" contingent who were saved by faith) were saved by faith in the Coming Messiah... They believed in the promise of His coming... G-d said it would happen, and they believed Him.

Perhaps they are still saved by faith in the Coming Messiah. What they don't realize is that the Messiah is Yeshua?

Of course, I realize that MJs have already believed in Yeshua. But how far removed are you really from your Jewish brethren who still have blinders on, yet still have hope in God's promises to them in the OT. what does is mean that "And so all Israel will be saved..." Does that just mean the generation that just happens to be living at the time? What about those that have already passed on? (And I'm talking about those who have true faith in God likened after Abraham)

visionary

12th April 2006, 08:19 AM

This is the faith of Abraham....

Gen 22:1 After these things, God tested Avraham. He said to him, "Avraham!" and he answered, "Here I am."
2 He said, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love, Yitz'chak; and go to the land of Moriyah. There you are to offer him as a burnt offering on a mountain that I will point out to you." 3 Avraham got up early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, together with Yitz'chak his son. He cut the wood for the burnt offering, departed and went toward the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day, Avraham raised his eyes and saw the place in the distance. 5 Avraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey. I and the boy will go there, worship and return to you." 6 Avraham took the wood for the burnt offering and laid it on Yitz'chak his son. Then he took in his hand the fire and the knife, and they both went on together. 7 Yitz'chak spoke to Avraham his father: "My father?" He answered, "Here I am, my son." He said, "I see the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" 8 Avraham replied, "God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son"; and they both went on together. 9 They came to the place God had told him about; and Avraham built the altar there, set the wood in order, bound Yitz'chak his son and laid him on the altar, on the wood. 10 Then Avraham put out his hand and took the knife to kill his son. 11 But the angel of ADONAI called to him out of heaven: "Avraham? Avraham!"He answered, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Don't lay your hand on the boy! Don't do anything to him! For now I know that you are a man who fears God, because you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." We read those words and say this is the faith of Abraham, but do not believe that he actually believed those words himself. Abraham truly did see and believe, and if God required more, even the sacrifice of his own beloved son, then so be it.

Many claim to have the faith of Abraham... but I think not. There is a difference between those who claim they have the faith, and those who live by faith. This living walking faith, that they can see God and live, is something few can acclaim to. Not because God is unwilling to visit, but because of our unbelief, it would do no good.

Misty Minister

12th April 2006, 06:09 PM

Do you think that in light on Romans 9-11, particularly Romans 11:25-26, that all Israel will be saved when the fulness of the Gentiles comes? I'm not just talking about MJs, but the whole of Israel, or at the least the remnant of those who have faith. What do you make of this passage? Where do you see this happening in the current course of history?
How will knowing the answers to questions like that deepen your relationship with G-d?

Dondi

13th April 2006, 06:13 AM

How will knowing the answers to questions like that deepen your relationship with G-d?

It will gain me a deeper understanding of God and His mercy to His chosen people. Plus, I am simply curious.

visionary

13th April 2006, 07:38 AM

I too, think this is a very interesting piece of prophecy and am just as curious as to how, why, when, and who are involved in this passage.

Dondi

13th April 2006, 08:10 AM

This is the faith of Abraham....

We read those words and say this is the faith of Abraham, but do not believe that he actually believed those words himself. Abraham truly did see and believe, and if God required more, even the sacrifice of his own beloved son, then so be it.

Many claim to have the faith of Abraham... but I think not. There is a difference between those who claim they have the faith, and those who live by faith. This living walking faith, that they can see God and live, is something few can acclaim to. Not because God is unwilling to visit, but because of our unbelief, it would do no good.

True, we must be doers of the Word, and not merely hearers. In fact, James makes this arguement using Abraham:

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:20-24

While seemingly to contradict salvation aparts from works, I would think that the works here are different from what is referred to in other passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:27-28, and Galatians 3:2. Those passages are refererencing the Law of Moses. but I think that James is referring to works of service in the Lord as we find freedom in Christ to perform.

Therefore, our faith is demonstrated through the works we perform in the Lord. And it is in this context that Abraham also demonstrated his faith by works, apart from the Law which was not given until later.

faithopelove

13th April 2006, 12:31 PM

I have really been enlightened by reading this thread.
Thank you all.

Andyman_1970

13th April 2006, 12:34 PM

One thing to keep in mind is the meaning of the term justified..........it doesn't mean how one get's saved, it's a declaration of someones status.......so Abrahams status (which he already had) was declared through his actions.

Dondi

13th April 2006, 01:07 PM

Andyman_1970

13th April 2006, 01:23 PM

I don't follow your distinction. Can you expound on you statements, please.

Justification is not "how" someone enters into a covenant relationship with God, or enters into God's Grace, it's a declaration of a present reality within that covenant. The passage you cite in James is a perfect example, Abrahams actions declared a present reality, that he was in a covenant relationship with God, the actions didn’t earn his standing in that relationship, his actions demonstrated his position within that relationship.

This is what the Torah was for (among other things) it was a way of God’s people identifying themselves within God’s covenant, it didn’t get then in the covenant, it demonstrated the position they already had within it.

The understanding that justification is a “method” or “process” in which one enters into God’s salvation or how one receives God’s salvation is a hold over from Reformation Theology and Martin Luther and IMO are patently false. This is the same person that falsely painted 1st century Judaism as a works based salvation religion.

Dondi

13th April 2006, 01:42 PM

Justification is not "how" someone enters into a covenant relationship with God, or enters into God's Grace, it's a declaration of a present reality within that covenant. The passage you cite in James is a perfect example, Abrahams actions declared a present reality, that he was in a covenant relationship with God, the actions didn’t earn his standing in that relationship, his actions demonstrated his position within that relationship.

This is what the Torah was for (among other things) it was a way of God’s people identifying themselves within God’s covenant, it didn’t get then in the covenant, it demonstrated the position they already had within it.

The understanding that justification is a “method” or “process” in which one enters into God’s salvation or how one receives God’s salvation is a hold over from Reformation Theology and Martin Luther and IMO are patently false. This is the same person that falsely painted 1st century Judaism as a works based salvation religion.

I don't view it as a "works-based" salvation as much as I see it a "faith-works based" salvation. They go hand in hand. For the example in James 2:21: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" You see here a specific action. What if Abraham decided not to lift the knife with the intention of killing Isaac? Then that would have not demonstrated faith. The message here would be that Abraham wouldn't be believing that God for the promise that through Isaac will come Abraham's seed despite the fact that God told him to sacrifice him. He would have demonstrated a lack of faith through non-action.

What if Noah didn't build the Ark? What if Rahab didn't hid the spies? Their faith caused them to action.

Andyman_1970

13th April 2006, 01:54 PM

I don't view it as a "works-based" salvation as much as I see it a "faith-works based" salvation. They go hand in hand.

I agree they go hand in hand, but works without faith is useless, just read Isaiah 1, God says He hates that. True faith will manifest it’s self in doing things, but doing things does not get someone faith, nor does doing things score one points with God towards their salvation.

For the example in James 2:21: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" You see here a specific action.

He was declared in right standing with God in Genesis 15, and according to the unilateral covenant God cut with Him, God and God alone is responsible for the fulfillment of that covenant. In the ancient near East the practice was that a covenant was cut by placing the halves of animals on either side of a ditch and each party would walk through the blood (it’s referred to as a blood path walk), signifying that both parties are responsible for fulfilling said covenant. The consequences of not fulfilling that covenant was that the offending party could be put to death like the animals they slaughtered. By being the only party that passed between the animals God indicated that He and He alone was responsible for the fulfillment of the covenant He cut with Abraham.

What if Abraham decided not to lift the knife with the intention of killing Isaac? Then that would have not demonstrated faith. The message here would be that Abraham wouldn't be believing that God for the promise that through Isaac will come Abraham's seed despite the fact that God told him to sacrifice him. He would have demonstrated a lack of faith through non-action.

Did Abrahams unfaithfulness prior to the episode with Isaac render him out of the covenant God cut with him? God was solely responsible for the fulfillment of that covenant not Abraham, there is nothing Abraham could have done to render himself outside that ancient covenant.

What if Noah didn't build the Ark? What if Rahab didn't hid the spies? Their faith caused them to action.

But their actions did not justify them, - justify in this sense with the Reformation understanding that what they did counted towards some salvation balance God was keeping. Their actions declared the present reality of their position before God, the actions didn’t get then into that position. Again, I reject that understanding of justification.

Dondi

13th April 2006, 02:45 PM

I agree they go hand in hand, but works without faith is useless, just read Isaiah 1, God says He hates that. True faith will manifest it’s self in doing things, but doing things does not get someone faith, nor does doing things score one points with God towards their salvation.

Lest I be misunderstood, let me clarify what I mean by "faith-works" salvation. I never meant to imply that works scores brownie points for salvation. But rather that faith with works demonstrates the trust you have in God. It is obedience in response to God. The problem with the Israelites in Isaiah 1 is that their sacrifices were made in vain. There was no repentance involved and the sacrifices were hypocritical attempts to please God.

But what does God say in Isaiah 1:18 say, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land."

The exhortation to "Come" requires action on the Israelites part to repent and be obedient to God.

He was declared in right standing with God in Genesis 15, and according to the unilateral covenant God cut with Him, God and God alone is responsible for the fulfillment of that covenant. In the ancient near East the practice was that a covenant was cut by placing the halves of animals on either side of a ditch and each party would walk through the blood (it’s referred to as a blood path walk), signifying that both parties are responsible for fulfilling said covenant. The consequences of not fulfilling that covenant was that the offending party could be put to death like the animals they slaughtered. By being the only party that passed between the animals God indicated that He and He alone was responsible for the fulfillment of the covenant He cut with Abraham.

True that this is God's covenant to Abraham, but who did the actual cutting here, God or Abraham? A covenant is an agreement between two parties. God gave the promise to Abraham, but He had Abraham cut the sacrifice.

Did Abrahams unfaithfulness prior to the episode with Isaac render him out of the covenant God cut with him? God was solely responsible for the fulfillment of that covenant not Abraham, there is nothing Abraham could have done to render himself outside that ancient covenant.

It is true that God will fulfill His Promises to Abraham, regardless of Abraham's unfaithfulness. However, God still wasn't pleased when Abraham got impatient and tried to usurp God by having child with Hagar. But then God is able to work around that by rejecting Ishmael in favor of Isaac. God is certainly true to His Promises, but Abraham would have been better blessed had he waited.

But their actions did not justify them, - justify in this sense with the Reformation understanding that what they did counted towards some salvation balance God was keeping. Their actions declared the present reality of their position before God, the actions didn’t get then into that position. Again, I reject that understanding of justification.

I'm not a reformer, nor am I completely familiar with the doctrines you speak of. I thought Reformation Theology stated that justification is by faith alone, which is apparently your view. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you point here.

Maybe like in Abraham's case, the New Covenant in Christ has already been established. What then is our response? What make us justified in Christ?

Andyman_1970

13th April 2006, 03:12 PM

Lest I be misunderstood, let me clarify what I mean by "faith-works" salvation. I never meant to imply that works scores brownie points for salvation. But rather that faith with works demonstrates the trust you have in God. It is obedience in response to God. The problem with the Israelites in Isaiah 1 is that their sacrifices were made in vain. There was no repentance involved and the sacrifices were hypocritical attempts to please God.

But what does God say in Isaiah 1:18 say, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land."

The exhortation to "Come" requires action on the Israelites part to repent and be obedient to God.

Keep in mind Isaiah is specifically referring to the red cord hung outside the Temple after the scapegoat was “released” into the wilderness. The cord would turn from red to white during the coming year signifying that God was removing the sins of the nation. Their actions did not remove the sins only God can do that. Later on in Isaiah he indicates that the nations heart is far from God, indicating why God hates what they are doing in chapter 1 even though it’s what He commands in the Torah. This would seem to indicate one can be as obedient as they want to Torah, but if they have no faith they are still not a part of God’s coveant people.

True that this is God's covenant to Abraham, but who did the actual cutting here, God or Abraham? A covenant is an agreement between two parties. God gave the promise to Abraham, but He had Abraham cut the sacrifice.

The cutting in the ceremony is irrelevant, who passes through the animals is what is relevant.

It is true that God will fulfill His Promises to Abraham, regardless of Abraham's unfaithfulness. However, God still wasn't pleased when Abraham got impatient and tried to usurp God by having child with Hagar. But then God is able to work around that by rejecting Ishmael in favor of Isaac. God is certainly true to His Promises, but Abraham would have been better blessed had he waited.

I don’t disagree, but God is soley responsible, He can and does work around our “junk” to fulfill His will on earth.

I'm not a reformer, nor am I completely familiar with the doctrines you speak of. I thought Reformation Theology stated that justification is by faith alone, which is apparently your view. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you point here.

Justification in the reformation mindset was a way to paint Judaism as a works based faith, indicating one could be justified through actions. Their definition of justification was a process or actions one did to gain one’s salvation rather than a declaration about one’s position within God’s covenant. So they will typically use the term, justified by faith (as opposed to justified by actions)…….this is not an accurate statement, understanding that one is made righteous before God based on faith. This concept true but the wrong use of the word justification, it’s a declaration, not a process. By faith we enter into God’s covenant people, and as such the resulting lives we lead declare our position within that covenant community.

They (the reformers) thought that the phrase justified by works meant that one could by their actions gain their salvation, rather than the Hebraic understanding of actions declare one’s standing in the covenant community.

Did that make sense? It’s a pretty pervasive Protestant teaching. They misunderstood the concept of justification, and thought the term justified by works indicated that the “old way” was you could by your actions earn your salvation……..this is a false understanding of 1st century Judaism.

Maybe like in Abraham's case, the New Covenant in Christ has already been established. What then is our response? What make us justified in Christ?

I would argue Jesus renewed the covenant and was the ultimate scapegoat (see the Gospel of John) and that in faith through Him we are declared to be a part of God’s covenant family.

Dondi

13th April 2006, 03:37 PM

Keep in mind Isaiah is specifically referring to the red cord hung outside the Temple after the scapegoat was “released” into the wilderness. The cord would turn from red to white during the coming year signifying that God was removing the sins of the nation. Their actions did not remove the sins only God can do that. Later on in Isaiah he indicates that the nations heart is far from God, indicating why God hates what they are doing in chapter 1 even though it’s what He commands in the Torah. This would seem to indicate one can be as obedient as they want to Torah, but if they have no faith they are still not a part of God’s coveant people.

The cutting in the ceremony is irrelevant, who passes through the animals is what is relevant.

I don’t disagree, but God is soley responsible, He can and does work around our “junk” to fulfill His will on earth.

Justification in the reformation mindset was a way to paint Judaism as a works based faith, indicating one could be justified through actions. Their definition of justification was a process or actions one did to gain one’s salvation rather than a declaration about one’s position within God’s covenant. So they will typically use the term, justified by faith (as opposed to justified by actions)…….this is not an accurate statement, understanding that one is made righteous before God based on faith. This concept true but the wrong use of the word justification, it’s a declaration, not a process. By faith we enter into God’s covenant people, and as such the resulting lives we lead declare our position within that covenant community.

They (the reformers) thought that the phrase justified by works meant that one could by their actions gain their salvation, rather than the Hebraic understanding of actions declare one’s standing in the covenant community.

Did that make sense? It’s a pretty pervasive Protestant teaching. They misunderstood the concept of justification, and thought the term justified by works indicated that the “old way” was you could by your actions earn your salvation……..this is a false understanding of 1st century Judaism.

I would argue Jesus renewed the covenant and was the ultimate scapegoat (see the Gospel of John) and that in faith through Him we are declared to be a part of God’s covenant family.[/quote]

I'm gonna have to respond later, but there are some interesting developments that you've brought up.

Tishri1

13th April 2006, 04:03 PM

Where is Russia mentioned in the Bible?can I refer you to the place where you can find the answer as the answer is extremely long Ask this ministry for his "Babylon Charts"and you will recieve a dozen two sided single spaced pages filled with scriptures on who is Babylon , and who destroys Babylon, and what this nation does to the country of the False Messiah and what happens when they go after God's people....you will not be disappointed:wave:

http://www.hatikva.org/

Tishri1

13th April 2006, 04:10 PM

I agree that one day the Messiah will be revealed and all of Israel will come to believe. But is there a possiblilty that they are held by the faith of Abraham up until that time? Just a jgonz said:

Perhaps they are still saved by faith in the Coming Messiah. What they don't realize is that the Messiah is Yeshua?

Of course, I realize that MJs have already believed in Yeshua. But how far removed are you really from your Jewish brethren who still have blinders on, yet still have hope in God's promises to them in the OT. what does is mean that "And so all Israel will be saved..." Does that just mean the generation that just happens to be living at the time? What about those that have already passed on? (And I'm talking about those who have true faith in God likened after Abraham)They don't all even believe in God anymore *:(sad, but of those that do, many believe in a comming Messiah and will be saved on this faith in Messiah....what will be the sign that they dont will be those who embrace the False Messiah and take his mark:cry:

Tishri1

13th April 2006, 07:23 PM

How will knowing the answers to questions like that deepen your relationship with G-d?Oh understanding the endtimes definately deepends our understanding and love for God! We see Him doing for us and thru us everything He said He would .....how incredible is that .....and how our faith and love grows when we witness these things!:clap:

Tishri1

13th April 2006, 07:53 PM

.

I would argue Jesus renewed the covenant and was the ultimate scapegoat (see the Gospel of John) and that in faith through Him we are declared to be a part of God’s covenant family.The Scapegoat is the False Messiah guys.....The one picked that is refered to as scape goat should never have been labled that....He is the one labled by the high priest as "La Azazel" (meaning To the Demon) the first one is Yeshua it is Labled "La Adonai" (meaning To the Lord), and La Azazel is not releasesd in the wilderness, it it thrown backwards of a cliff several miles into the wilderness (and the sharp jagged rocks tear it to pieces before it even hits the bottom)....It is all a picture of what Yeshua is gonna do to the False Messiah (on Yom Kippur) when He returns to reign here on Earth...Revelation 20:1-3 NAS Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed;

Andyman_1970

13th April 2006, 08:04 PM

The Sacapegoat is the False Messiah guys.....The one picked that is refered to as scape goat should never have been labled that....He is the one labled by the high priest as "La Azazel" (meaning To the Demon) the first one is Yeshua it is Labled "La Adonai" (meaning To the Lord), and it is not releasesd in the wilderness, it it thrown backwards of a cliff several miles into the wilderness (and the sharp jagged rocks tear it to pieces before it even hits the bottom)....It is all a picture of what Yeshua is gonna do to the False Messiah (on Yom Kippur) when Hreturns to reign here on Earth...

I disagree..........the picture that John give us in his Gospel was of the scapegoat. In chaper 19 they place a crown of thorns on His head which would have created a red ring around His head, not unlike the red cord placed on the scapegoat, then when Pilate says "Here is your King" what do the crowd say? Not crucify Him, they say take Him away, in the Hebrew that word was azazel, then (just like Leviticus 16) a Gentile leads Him out of the city..........John a Jew wants his Jewish audince to know Jesus is the scapegoat.......this a Jewish literary method symbolism, symbolism, symbolism.

Anyway, we disagree on this one sister.........but that's cool, as the tradition goes the Text is like a multifacet gem and the more you turn it the more different colors that are refracted from it.

Shalom.

Tishri1

13th April 2006, 08:36 PM

I disagree..........the picture that John give us in his Gospel was of the scapegoat. In chaper 19 they place a crown of thorns on His head which would have created a red ring around His head, not unlike the red cord placed on the scapegoat, then when Pilate says "Here is your King" what do the crowd say? Not crucify Him, they say take Him away, in the Hebrew that word was azazel, then (just like Leviticus 16) a Gentile leads Him out of the city..........John a Jew wants his Jewish audince to know Jesus is the scapegoat.......this a Jewish literary method symbolism, symbolism, symbolism.

Anyway, we disagree on this one sister.........but that's cool, as the tradition goes the Text is like a multifacet gem and the more you turn it the more different colors that are refracted from it.

Shalom.You just need to study the Temple Service of Yom Kippur to know it is the False Messiah.....The Sins placed on La Azazel are never atoned for because this one is not sacrificed in the Temple and the blood is not placed on the alter...these sins stay on that goat and go with the goat to the wilderness, like wise the sins of the unrepentant sinner the one the Jew calls the Wholly Wicked are placed on that goat and remain unforgiven as the goat is thrown to His death into the lake of fire...

visionary

13th April 2006, 08:44 PM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Tishri1 again.

I am with you on this one Tishri... know the feasts, and know the symbolism, to know what is really taking place. Yeshua was and never will be the scapegoat.

Andyman_1970

14th April 2006, 06:27 AM

You just need to study the Temple Service of Yom Kippur to know it is the False Messiah.....The Sins placed on La Azazel are never atoned for because this one is not sacrificed in the Temple and the blood is not placed on the alter...these sins stay on that goat and go with the goat to the wilderness, like wise the sins of the unrepentant sinner the one the Jew calls the Wholly Wicked are placed on that goat and remain unforgiven as the goat is thrown to His death into the lake of fire...

The red cord is then taken off the dead goats head and placed above the entrance to the Temple. During the year that red cord would change to white, symbolic of God removing the sins of His people......this is what Isaiah is referencing in chapter 1 when he says your sins were like scarlet.......

Interestingly there is a passage in the Mishnah that refers to this cord, and how that 40 years before the destruction of the Temple it stopped turning white, like the Temple sacrafical system stopped being effective................now what happened approximately 40 years before the destruction of the Temple..................LOL

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one sisters.

Shalom.

Dondi

14th April 2006, 06:29 AM

The cutting in the ceremony is irrelevant, who passes through the animals is what is relevant.

"And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not." - Genesis 15:10

This is the only verse I see that even comes close to passing through the animals. It is still Abraham doing the work. There is no indication that God was the one referred to in these verses.

I don’t disagree, but God is soley responsible, He can and does work around our “junk” to fulfill His will on earth.

Tis true. I can imagine God in this sitation giving a heavy sigh and going, "Abraham, Abraham, what am I going to do with you?" I acn relate with my own impatient children.

However, I would point out that it's not filthy rags if God told us to perform a work. Our righteousness would be filthy rags only if we attribute the work as our own work. We are the hands and feet of the Lord. Tools to be used for His Glory. The key is that we have to be obedient to His Will. That is why I am stressing the interaction between faith and works. If we are to believe God, then we need to trust God enough to act on that faith. The work itself is ordained by God. It is not man's work. The cause is the effect, so to speak. Works are a confirmation that one trusts God.

Justification in the reformation mindset was a way to paint Judaism as a works based faith, indicating one could be justified through actions. Their definition of justification was a process or actions one did to gain one’s salvation rather than a declaration about one’s position within God’s covenant. So they will typically use the term, justified by faith (as opposed to justified by actions)…….this is not an accurate statement, understanding that one is made righteous before God based on faith. This concept true but the wrong use of the word justification, it’s a declaration, not a process. By faith we enter into God’s covenant people, and as such the resulting lives we lead declare our position within that covenant community.

They (the reformers) thought that the phrase justified by works meant that one could by their actions gain their salvation, rather than the Hebraic understanding of actions declare one’s standing in the covenant community.

Did that make sense? It’s a pretty pervasive Protestant teaching. They misunderstood the concept of justification, and thought the term justified by works indicated that the “old way” was you could by your actions earn your salvation……..this is a false understanding of 1st century Judaism.

Makes sense. And again, I appeal to the above statements that the work is of God, not man.

But really, I think we are getting off track to the intention of the OP. we can continue this discussion in another thread is you wish.

I still would like you assessment of Israel's state at the present time. Are they kept by Abraham's faith?

I would argue Jesus renewed the covenant and was the ultimate scapegoat (see the Gospel of John) and that in faith through Him we are declared to be a part of God’s covenant family.

What aspects of the covenant were renewed? Certainly the old covenant is not longer in effect, IAW Hebrews 7-9. Christ fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law that the blood of bulls and goats could not. But Hebrews also refers to a greater priesthood after the order of Melchisedec, who came before the Law. One who received tithes from Abraham. What is you take on that?

Andyman_1970

14th April 2006, 06:40 AM

"And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not." - Genesis 15:10

This is the only verse I see that even comes close to passing through the animals. It is still Abraham doing the work. There is no indication that God was the one referred to in these verses.

Read verse 17.

"However, I would point out that it's not filthy rags if God told us to perform a work.

Well in Isaiah 1 He says He hates their Torah observance, they were doing things God told them to do in the Torah…………..so evidently if one does not have faith works are filthy rags.
.
"Makes sense. And again, I appeal to the above statements that the work is of God, not man.

I’m not sure I agree with this concept, but I’ll reserve any comments I have until I’ve looked into it futher.

I still would like you assessment of Israel's state at the present time. Are they kept by Abraham's faith?

I have a hard time thinking that a God fearing Jew who out of a deep love and passion for God observes God’s commandments will be condemned to Hell. With respect to God’s chosen people (the Jews) and their salvation I tend to be more inclusive rather than the normal Christian exclusive understanding of salvation. In 1st century Judaism, salvation was not exclusive, but somehow Christianity teaches it is.

What aspects of the covenant were renewed? Certainly the old covenant is not longer in effect, IAW Hebrews 7-9. Christ fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law that the blood of bulls and goats could not. But Hebrews also refers to a greater priesthood after the order of Melchisedec, who came before the Law. One who received tithes from Abraham. What is you take on that?

None at the moment………LOL

Dondi

14th April 2006, 07:03 AM

Read verse 17.

Ah, I didn't read down far enough. Thank you for pointing it out. Still, it was a cooperative work. Noah built the Ark, but God sent the rain.

Well in Isaiah 1 He says He hates their Torah observance, they were doing things God told them to do in the Torah…………..so evidently if one does not have faith works are filthy rags.

The operative word here is faith. But in faith comes obedience.

"If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:" - Isaiah 1:19

I’m not sure I agree with this concept, but I’ll reserve any comments I have until I’ve looked into it futher.

Very well, take your time.

I have a hard time thinking that a God fearing Jew who out of a deep love and passion for God observes God’s commandments will be condemned to Hell. With respect to God’s chosen people (the Jews) and their salvation I tend to be more inclusive rather than the normal Christian exclusive understanding of salvation. In 1st century Judaism, salvation was not exclusive, but somehow Christianity teaches it is.

I get that impression also.

None at the moment………LOL

Ok.

Dondi

14th April 2006, 07:25 AM

Another thought occurred to me on the issue if Israel.

Ezekiel 37:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." - Ezekiel 37:1-28

Now many will say this passage refers to the regathering of Israel from the four corners of the earth and in fact this has already begun in the formation of Israel in 1948. But if that is the case, then it is a work on progress, for the latter part of the chapter speaks of one king that will rule over Israel, of a nation that will no more transgress, of a covenant of peace, and so on. These things have yet to be manifested.

But what I really want to talk about are the valley of bones. Again the implication is that this is a symbolic reference to the resurrection of Israel as a nation.

However, I am wondering if it might not have a literal sense to it also. Verse 11-13 says, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel...And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD."

I am reminded of the passage in Matthew 27:50-53:

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Could it be possible that Ezekiel 37 speaks of a literal resurrection of Israel? And if that is the case, what is meant by "these bones are the whole house of Israel"? Could this be referring to Romans 11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved..."?

visionary

14th April 2006, 07:30 AM

In chapter 19 they place a crown of thorns on His head which would have created a red ring around His head, not unlike the red cord placed on the scapegoatThat is a stretch....

visionary

14th April 2006, 07:36 AM

Pilate says "Here is your King" what do the crowd say? Not crucify Him, they say take Him away, in the Hebrew that word was azazel, then (just like Leviticus 16) a Gentile leads Him out of the city..........John a Jew wants his Jewish audince to know Jesus is the scapegoat.......this a Jewish literary method symbolism, symbolism, symbolism.So you say.. but I read...

John 19:5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, "Here is the man!" 6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"

John 19:14 It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews. 15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"

Andyman_1970

14th April 2006, 08:33 AM

So you say.. but I read...

Yeah look at v15 they say "take Him away, take Him away" in the Hebrew that would have been "azazel, azazel!!"

Again, I believe John is creating a picture that Jesus was the ultimate scapegoat. Atonement means to cover a sin, to forgive means to send it away, the scapegoat was a picture of what God woud do with the Messiah, our sins would be "sent away".

John uses these pictures all over the place, like when Mary sees Jesus in the garden (hint, hint) and she thinks He's the gardener (hint, hint, wink, whink).....through the ressurection God is restoring all creation back to it's pre Genesis 3 state (see Revelations 21 and 22).

That John was a craft apocalyptic Jewish writer (which BTW is a specific type of Jewish literature).

Tishri1

14th April 2006, 11:03 AM

I disagree..........the picture that John give us in his Gospel was of the scapegoat. In chaper 19 they place a crown of thorns on His head which would have created a red ring around His head, not unlike the red cord placed on the scapegoat, then when Pilate says "Here is your King" what do the crowd say? Not crucify Him, they say take Him away, in the Hebrew that word was azazel, then (just like Leviticus 16) a Gentile leads Him out of the city..........John a Jew wants his Jewish audince to know Jesus is the scapegoat.......this a Jewish literary method symbolism, symbolism, symbolism.

Anyway, we disagree on this one sister.........but that's cool, as the tradition goes the Text is like a multifacet gem and the more you turn it the more different colors that are refracted from it.

Shalom.I just re- read your post Andy and saw something amasing-: The Jews(actually some of them, as we know the crowd was "fixed "with instigators) choosing the False Messiah's death for the King of Kings....They wanted Him to die the death of the Azazel and go to Hell so to speak....But that didnt make him Azazel as the Azazel has no redeeming qualities in His death what so ever (that is all a misunderstanding on the Christians part) Still that is insightful what you said...I see it as they wanted to choose the lot for Yeshua and gave him La Azazel (Total rejection of the Messiah I would say...)

Dondi

14th April 2006, 11:09 AM

I just re- read your post Andy and saw something amasing-: The Jews(actually some of them, as we know the crowd was "fixed "with instigators) choosing the False Messiah's death for the King of Kings....They wanted Him to die the death of the Azazel and go to Hell so to speak....But that didnt make him Azazel as the Azazel has no redeeming qualities in His death what so ever (that is all a misunderstanding on the Christians part) Still that is insightful what you said...I see it as they wanted to choose the lot for Yeshua and gave him La Azazel (Total rejection of the Messiah I would say...)

Would the release of Barrabas factor into any of this?

Tishri1

14th April 2006, 11:25 AM

The red cord is then taken off the dead goats head and placed above the entrance to the Temple. During the year that red cord would change to white, symbolic of God removing the sins of His people......this is what Isaiah is referencing in chapter 1 when he says your sins were like scarlet.......

Interestingly there is a passage in the Mishnah that refers to this cord, and how that 40 years before the destruction of the Temple it stopped turning white, like the Temple sacrafical system stopped being effective................now what happened approximately 40 years before the destruction of the Temple..................LOL

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one sisters.

Shalom.I agree that we definately have two opionions here (and only 1/2 a Jew :D will wonders never cease)

The cord changed to white out in the wilderness after the goat died and signals would be sent back to the Temple to let the Priests there know, then they would wave (and hang)a white piece of cloth in the court of the women for all to see and celebrate by..... The whole service of Yom Kippur tells the story of Yeshua as High Priest Judging the sinful deeds of the False Messiah...by the way there will be a Lake of Fire off the cliff on that final Yom Kippur -the cliff has a channel back to the dead sea and this will be widened from the earth quake we read about in the Scriptures

Tishri1

14th April 2006, 11:29 AM

Again, I believe John is creating a picture that Jesus was the ultimate scapegoat. Atonement means to cover a sin, to forgive means to send it away,

Where are you getting your information? Mine comes from the Temple Institute in Israel and the Sanhedren:scratch:

Andyman_1970

14th April 2006, 11:35 AM

Where are you getting your information? Mine comes from the Temple Institute in Israel and the Sanhedren:scratch:

Several, among them Dwight Pryor, Ray Vanderlaan.

Tishri1

14th April 2006, 11:42 AM

Would the release of Barrabas factor into any of this?I bet it does, I like what Andy said about the gardener too:wave:

Tishri1

14th April 2006, 11:48 AM

Several, among them Dwight Pryor, Ray Vanderlaan.Have they any studies on the Temple...I'm getting mine from the People who have devoted their lives to the Temple and it's Services and one of them is a member of the Sanhedrin because of his qualifications

Mary_Magdalene

14th April 2006, 02:03 PM

Dondi

15th April 2006, 08:40 AM

I appreciate all the replies so far. The discussion on the scapegoat is quite thought provoking. I didn't know there was a controversy in the identity of the scapegoat. I am moved to study the matter further.

However, I'm still waiting for a response to my post regarding Ezekiel 37 that I posted a page or two back. Does anyone have any comments concrening this?

talmidim

15th April 2006, 10:28 AM

Dondi

15th April 2006, 11:22 AM

Shalom all,

Anybody remember the first rule of interpreting scripture? You have to take the plain meaning of the text, UNLESS there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.

Rom 11:25 For I don't desire, brothers, to have you ignorant of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Yisra'el, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Rom 11:26 and so all Yisra'el will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Tziyon the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Ya`akov.

This says that the believers should not become conceited in our knowledge of scripture or our knowledge of the Father or our knowledge of His Son or our knowledge of His Spirit. It is the Father that has blinded most of Ya`akov's children until the time of the Gentile is past. Then the Deliverer will come and kick booty in the valley and save His kingdom Yisra'el and His people Yisra'el (read Yo'el chapter 3). THEN everyone will know who is King of the valley, King of the hill, King of the mountain and King of the universe - not just us!

Why do we INSIST on alegorizing and over-spiritualizing the plain meaning of the text? To seek the deeper meanings of scripture is good. But we must remember not to depart from the PLAIN MEANING of the text in doing so.

What I see happening here is EXACTLY what we are warned against in these verses. We have become conceited in our own wisdom.

The plain meaning of the above text is what PROMPTED me to ask the question about the salvation of Israel in the OP in the first place. I realize that in the future the Messiah will come to retore all things and then all Israel will be saved. My question concerns what is happening to the people of Israel up to that time. Are those or will those Jews who have faith in God going to be saved, if in fact all Israel will be saved? Are they still of the elect? I think we have veered from the OP's question , which is a common occurance from these boards. I was attempting to get back to the issue with my question abouit Ezekiel 37.

visionary

15th April 2006, 04:52 PM

When it was first written down, I believe the writer believed that it meant what it said.... with 2000 years of changes, we have taken it to mean many variations... but does that change the orginal understanding?

Torah

15th April 2006, 06:16 PM

Dondi
Do you think that in light on Romans 9-11, particularly Romans 11:25-26, that all Israel will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles comes? I'm not just talking about MJs, but the whole of Israel, or at the least the remnant of those who have faith. What do you make of this passage? Where do you see this happening in the current course of history?

“All Israel” This sums it up, all of Israel.
I would like to ask you some Questions.

1) Romans 11:11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. How has the Gentiles made Israel envious?

2) What are these scriptures referring to as “Root” & “branches”? Roman 11:16 …then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. What are the root & branches?

3) What doe’s Roman 11:20 mean by …”Do not be arrogant”... Arrogant about what?

4) What aregentiles grafted into? 11:24 …”grafted into a cultivated olive tree…,

5) What was the unbelief of the natural branch? …”Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief”…

talmidim

15th April 2006, 06:38 PM

The plain meaning of the above text is what PROMPTED me to ask the question about the salvation of Israel in the OP in the first place. I realize that in the future the Messiah will come to retore all things and then all Israel will be saved. My question concerns what is happening to the people of Israel up to that time. Are those or will those Jews who have faith in God going to be saved, if in fact all Israel will be saved? Are they still of the elect? I think we have veered from the OP's question , which is a common occurance from these boards. I was attempting to get back to the issue with my question abouit Ezekiel 37.Shalom Dondi and BTW Happy B-Day,

It was not your question to which I take exception, though the answer seems obvious enough. I take it to mean all Yisra'el as in the land that was given away - the holy city, the West Bank and Gaza. I take it to mean all the land of promise from the Euphrates to the Nile. I also take it to mean the remnant that survives. If it indeed includes all of the children of Yisra'el past, present and future, then glory to His name. I don't know, but that seems to be what it says. If so, then that would include about 20% of the world's population that is of Hebreic decent. This is not counting all those that are adopted. Things might get a little crowded in the land.

Tishri1

17th April 2006, 12:36 AM

Why do we INSIST on alegorizing and over-spiritualizing the plain meaning of the text?
...Then the Deliverer will come and "kick booty " :D This is the best interpretation I have heard Tal.... Your sooooo expressive:P

Dondi

18th April 2006, 06:28 AM

Shalom Dondi and BTW Happy B-Day,

It was not your question to which I take exception, though the answer seems obvious enough. I take it to mean all Yisra'el as in the land that was given away - the holy city, the West Bank and Gaza. I take it to mean all the land of promise from the Euphrates to the Nile. I also take it to mean the remnant that survives. If it indeed includes all of the children of Yisra'el past, present and future, then glory to His name. I don't know, but that seems to be what it says. If so, then that would include about 20% of the world's population that is of Hebreic decent. This is not counting all those that are adopted. Things might get a little crowded in the land.

Thank you.

I believe that God will take back the land that belongs to Israel. And I believe that he will do it by supernatural means. My heart aches to see the continuing conflict in Isarel that is present today (just heard about another bombing). But I don't think that situation will never be resolved by human diplomacy or even all out human initiated war. Divine intervention is the ONLY thing that can bring peace to the land.

As far as crowding, I seem to recall that the land of Israel extended well beyond todays borders, according to the last chapters of Deuteronomy, when God showed Moses from a distance on Mount Nebo the extent of the land promised to the people of Israel. I think God intends to inhabit the whole land. :thumbsup: