Eating Kosher

[Pray4Isrel]

 In the book of Leviticus in chapter 11 we see the dietary laws clearly laid out, most of which are known by all who study the law.

However, in Acts we read about Peter's vision:

Act 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
Act 10:18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.


Having read both scriptural acccounts on dietary law and Peter's vision, what is the appropriatediet to adhere to?

(I have my own opinion but would like everyone's input, please!)

[Pray4Isrel]

Sorry, I seem to be having difficulty with my entire post - it only is showing half of what I initially posted - I'll have to fix it. Please bear with me!

[Charles YTK]

Pray4Israel,
I am afraid you have misunderstood what the vision was about. Read the following chapter, and Peter Himself explains the vision as not being about food but about the acceptance of the Gentiles. If you want to make this vision about dietary food laws, then you are going against what the understanding that the Lord gave Peter concerning this and added to that you are throwing away the very event where God told the disciple that the Gentiles were acceoted and able to recive salvation. I do not believe you would want to through such an important verse away.

Please allow me to state also that there is a biblical way of eating Kosher and this is quite a bit different from the Rabbinical traditions, which took the biblical restrictions and added to them by magnitudes and made them a burden, just as Yeshua said, that they had made the law, into shuch an awful burden that no man could carry it. It was not a burden in and of itself. It was the Phaisaican/Rabbinical traditions added to it that perverted it. As Yeshua said, "You make the law of no effect by your traditions",, "teaching as doctrine the commandments of men."

Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

You will often hear churchmen say, "We (Gentiles) have no responsibility to the Commandments, or Dietary laws. We need to follow only the four Noachide laws."

The first error in this is that itmeans Jews have a separate means of savation than Gentiles. But there is another problem that I would like to address. Here is the verse usually quoted.
Acts 15: [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

First we should notice that three of the four items on this list are in fact Kosher dietary laws. Next we should realize that these are reccomendations for new Gentile converts who are "In the process of turning to faith in Yeshua" in other words they are not mature brothers, but entry level new converts. What they are being given is the same sort of requirements that were given to Gentiles like corneleus who was a God fearer, or a righteous Gentile. This is a point of entry and not a final Goal. It is a point at which one need to comply so that they can enter into fellowship with more mature believers, and with the Othodox Jews with whom they will be sharing the synagogue. The synagogues was the only place where the Torah scrolls were kept and where teaching from the scriptures was done. Lastly notice that the final verse of this, which is almost always neglected by churchmen, say that the new converts are to go on from this point of entry and learn the finer points of righteous living from the Rabbis who will teach from the Torah every Sabbath in the Synagogues of their own towns. The disciples are not to be burdened with this task, but the local Rabbis will take care of it.
[21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Charles YTK

[ZiSunka]

If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake. 1Corinthians 10:27

Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. Luke 10:8

[Shimon]

To add to what Charles said above...

In prior discussions, I've had quite a number of people who have referred to Mark 7:19 in an attempt to prove that "unclean" meats have been made "clean:"

Mark 7:19: For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

First off, notice that the phrase "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean'" is a parenthetical remark. It was not written in the original manuscripts, but was added later by the translator.

Secondly, if Yeshua had, in fact, already declared "unclean" meats to be "clean," then why, in Acts 10 did Peter answer God by saying:

Acts 10:14: "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

Why didn't Peter simply say: "Hey, don't you remember, Lord? You've *already* declared these meats to be 'clean.'" Why did Peter feel compelled to resist?

Shimon

[Charles YTK]

Some say that Jesus did away with the Kosher laws. Well first off that means that he did in fact destroy the law after saying that he did not come to destroy the law. How can this be? Because we don't understand the difference between Gods commandments and Rabbinical traditions.

In MK 7 we see the Pharisees come along and accuse Jesus and the disciples of breaking the law, because they were eating with unclean hands. We first need to understand that this hand washing ceremony is not a commandment of God but a Jewish religious traditions. It was taught (in error) that if a person ate clean Kosher food without first washing their hands, that the food then became unclean, (was defiled). The issue here is not Kosher food but hand washing. Be assured that the Pharisees were looking for any excuse to accuse them, and had they been eating unclean food, then they would certainly have accused them of that rather than the hand washing. Because the Kosher law is biblical and of a higher order. But Jesus comes back at them and tells them that they have put more importance on their own tradtions and let the important matters, Gods law undone. And the reason is that they only wanted to accuse him.

When the disciple ask him later about this matter he tells them that it is not what enters a mans mouth but what procedes from it that defiles him. Some versions like the NAS, go so far as to add the words "thereby he declared all foods clean." These words do not appear in the text at all and were added later.

Here is Jesus' response to the disciples: Mark 7: MK 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: [15] There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Remember that this is reference to eating with unwashed hands, and Kosher food is not even part of the subject or the event. It is clearer in Matt 15: [17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? [18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. [19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: [20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

It is not eating with unwashed hands that defile, but the evil in a mans heart which make him defiled through sinful thoughts and words and actions.

Charles YTK

[ZiSunka]

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

[Shimon]

lambslove:

I believe you are taking the verses out of context. This is the whole problem, people have continually taken verses out of context and then developed doctrinal statements on those verses.

Verses 14-22 tell us what the subject matter is:

1 Corinthians 10:14-22: Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Paul is not talking about "clean" and "unclean" meats here, he is talking about meat that has been sacrificed to idols. It was common practice that leftover meats from idol worship were placed back out on the open market. As such, a buyer had no way of knowing whether or not it had been offered to idols.

For this reason, Paul says:

1 Corinthians 10:25-26: Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

The pagan temple was the center of the community, just as the Jewish Temple was the center of the Jewish community. It was common for feasts to be held in the courtyard of the pagan temple, which had nothing to do with idol worship. But, since the Apostles were preaching that Gentiles did not have to become Jewish proselytes, the Jews had no way of knowing whether or not a Gentile had truly made a break with idol worship.

Notice what else Paul says:

1 Corinthians 10:27-29: If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake -- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours.

Paul is saying that if you know the meat has been offered to idols, then don't eat it, otherwise eat what is set in front of you.

Shimon

[Charles YTK]

Lambslove,

Eat whatever food is put before you. There are things that are food and things that are not food. Kosher things are food, unkosher are not food. These men were told not to be inhospitable nor to complain about what was being served to them, but to accept humbly what food was given, even if it was not the finest. Remember that Paul says in his own defence, that "he has never in any way broken any of the laws or tradtions of the fathers" and this would include dietary laws. Also keep in mind that in the Revelation, Jesus himself condemns those who defile themselve by eating things sacrificed to Idols, (thereby making them unclean, non-kosher). The promise of the Kingdom is that no unclean bird shall be there.

Moreover, the dietary laws are not a Jewish thing, and predate the Torah. Consider that even Noah who predates Moshe by several hundred years, was told to bring to the ark, 2 of each unclean and 7 pair of clean. Clean and unclean was already established then.

Charles YTK

[ZiSunka]

Paul is not talking about "clean" and "unclean" meats here, he is talking about meat that has been sacrificed to idols. It was common practice that leftover meats from idol worship were placed back on out on the open market. As such, a buyer had no way of knowing whether or not it had been offered to idols.

So you're saying that all meats sacrificed to idols were from clean animals? And that somehow, pagans were keeping kosher? :scratch:

You KNOW that's not right. Pagans didn't bother keeping kosher, they ate all manner of animals, clean and unclean. The meat Paul was talking about wasn't clean, killed in the kosher manner. It was whatever the pagan dragged into his god's temple to be butchered. Clean-ness according to the Mosaic law wasn't a consideration.

[Shimon]

lambslove:

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

One of the major difficulties we encounter in our discussion of “trust,” “believe,” and “faith/faithful,” is that there is no corresponding verbal form of “faith” in the English language. We have no way of saying that one “faithed” or that someone is “faithing” in God. Yet in both the Hebrew and the Greek the word group expressing the concept of faith also contains a verb built on the same root.To put it simply, noun and verb are cognate. For example, the Hebrew verb "aman," which means “to be supported,” from which we derive the verb “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "emunah," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Likewise, the Greek verb "pisteuo", which means “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "pistis," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Unfortunately, many English readers do not realize that “believing,” “having faith,” and “being faithful” all derive from the same word group whether in the Hebrew or the Greek.

To put it another way, the Apostles never envisioned a situation where someone was accredited as having genuine “faith” but whose life did not evidence “faithfulness.

This is why James said:

James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is no such thing as "faith in God" without faithfulness to His commandments. Obedience of His commandments is the method by which we place our faith in Him and accept His sacrifice for our sins.

Notice what else James tells us:

James 2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James is saying: "You say you have faith? Prove it!" It is by obeying His commandments that we prove we have faith. If we do not obey His commandments, we prove otherwise.

Shimon

[Shimon]

lambslove:

So you're saying that all meats sacrificed to idols were from clean animals? And that somehow, pagans were keeping kosher?

You KNOW that's not right. Pagans didn't bother keeping kosher, they ate all manner of animals, clean and unclean. The meat Paul was talking about wasn't clean, killed in the kosher manner. It was whatever the pagan dragged into his god's temple to be butchered. Clean-ness according to the Mosaic law wasn't a consideration.

No, I'm saying that Paul isn't talking about "clean" and "unclean" meats *AT ALL.* He is *only* talking about meats that have been sacrificed to idols.

The Jews were also commanded in the Torah not to eat meats that had been sacrificed to idols. This is the issue that Paul was addressing, not "clean" vs "unclean" meats.

The pagans offered "clean" and "unclean" meats to idols. They didn't just offer "unclean" meats.

The Torah never specifies a "kosher" way to slaughter animals. The rabbis developed a rabbinic tradition, but it isn't specified in Torah.

Shimon

[Pray4Isrel]

I follow a diet where I do not eat pork AT ALL. I do this because I wish to be a witness to other Jewish people. Both times I went to Israel to study and do missions work I found my ministry more effective if I followed the kosher diet, therefore I did it. I could witness to many more Jewish people by choosing to follow the same diet they did so that they did not feel I was a hindrance.

ONCE in the past six years did I eat pork. I was in Moscow Russia this past summer about four months ago to do missionary work with my husband. We were very malnourished and I had already lost eight lbs which I was only 110 lbs to start with. I was starting to become very weak and was unable to sleep at night. Meals were few and far between. After having a bad case of the "shakes" one night (I was shaking very bad) I had to eat. So I ate all they had. A link of sausage. Did God condemn me? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Did I start eating pork again after this episode? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I follow the dietary laws to be a witness and to adhere to a primarily healthy diet originated by God. Do I condemn those that eat pork? NOPE. My husband eats it out in restaurants occasionally (AND he's a solid man of God).  

BTW, Thanks Charles for sharing some traditional things that I was unaware of.  I love to keep learning! 

[Shimon]

Pray4Isrel:

Neither Charles nor I are saying that God will "condemn" someone for breaking a commandment now and then. When we do so, we should repent, and be forgiven. None of us can keep the Torah perfectly.

It is a *heart* issue -- a heart that is willing to be obedient. It is our willingness to submit.

This is not "works-based" salvation, because it is not our works that gets us into Heaven. It is our willingness to submit to His authority, absolutely and completely, and say "Your will, not mine." We acknowledge that He knows what's best for us better than we do ourselves, and we trust Him enough to do *everything* He tells us to do, without question, rather than insist on doing our own thing. *That* is true, saving faith, and if we are willing to submit, then Yeshua's sacrifice pays the penalty for our sins. But, without obedience -- total, unreserved obedience -- then we do not really trust Him, and have not accepted His sacrifice for our sins. We may mess up now and then, but we continue to strive with every ounce of effort we have, and continue to improve, continuing to become more and more like Him each and every day. It is a *heart* issue, a heart that *yearns* to be more like Him, and *grieves* when we mess up. This is why Yeshua commanded us to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul," because it takes that much effort.

Shimon

[Pray4Isrel]

I don't believe I was sinning by eating the sausage link.
Please show me what my punishment should've been under the law... You see, I believe God sees the heart. I am not under condemnation because I am His child. I do not have to live in fear of eating a sausage while in Russia (doing missionary work) while I was "shaking" so bad and very ill. God did not look down upon me as I ate the sausage with anger. I still see no scripture pointing to what condemnation I was under for such a thing. You see, many became so tangled in the law that they even approached Jesus about plucking a grain of wheat on Shabbat. Others had no respect for the law and terribly perverted it. If we live to the example Yeshua set for us we can see the perfection. Man looks upon the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

[Shimon]

Pray4Isrel:

I don't believe I was sinning by eating the sausage link.

On what basis did you make this decision? Paul tells us that the Torah is the very standard which defines sin:

Romans 7:7: What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

The Torah is what tell us what sin is. The Torah commands us not to eat pork, therefore disobeying this commandment is a sin.

The Apostle John defines sin for us:

1 John 3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is transgression of the Torah. Eating pork is transgression of the Torah and is therefore "sin."

How did Adam fall? He ate what he was told not to eat. How is eating pork any different?

Notice what Paul tells us:

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

It is not those who hear the Torah that will be declared righteous, but those who *do* it.

James tells us exactly the same thing:

James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Obedience of the Torah is the method by which we accept Yeshua's salvation. It is how we *prove* we have faith. Without obedience, there is no faith, and no salvation.

Shimon

[Charles YTK]

Pray4Israel,

In the finer points, yes what you did was sin. But knowing that it was sin, if you repent, God forgives and does not hold this charge arainst you. But it was tecnically sin, yes. It was not lawful for David to eat the show bread and give it to his men, but the need was greater than the law. So even though it was Sin, David was forgiven.

This is all quite different from simply disregarding the law and claiming an immunity aginst sin because of Jesus blood. This is what would be considered treading up on the blood of Messiah. We all sin, because we are weak, but it greives our hearts when we do, and we repent and God forgives, and eventually we may have victory over these sins. Remember that sin was condemned in the flesh, which means He (Yeshua) is familiar with our hearts and our delemna, and extends mercy, not license.

Blessings to you, and be at peace,

Charles YTK

[Pray4Isrel]

Show me specifically scripturally where my eating that pork was a sin. Can you back it up also with new testament sources?

I've yet to see how Acts chapter ten is NOT to be taken literally.

[ZiSunka]

Wow! You guys really want to cling to keeping the law.

Good luck with that. Unless you can keep all of it, you are guilty. It is by faith in Christ that you are justified, not in keeping the law.

You might want to brush up on the book of Romans, which was of course, written to the Jewish Believers in Rome.

[Blindfaith]

I'm certainly happy that I follow a Lord that has extended His Grace to me.

Grace.  Not rules, not legalism, Grace.

[Charles YTK]

Blindfaith,
A certain young ruler came to Jesus and asked him, "Master what must I do to inherit eternal life" And Jesus told him to Keep the commandments, and began quoting the ten. Did you notice that Jesus did not say, don't worry about the law or what God expects, just believe in me.?

The true believers keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17

Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

Pray4Israel,

As Peter explains the vision he says:
Acts10: [28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

God showed him that he should not call any MAN common or unclean, NOT any food or any animal. And based on this understanding, Peter instantly agreed to go with the Gentile men that had come for him.

Remember also that the sheep was let down three times and then at that very moment three Gentiles come to the door asking for him, Gentiles who would be considered unclean.

Charles YTK

[Shimon]

Pray4Isrel:

Another note on Acts 10. Notice that Luke tells us that Cornelius was a "God-fearer:"

Acts 10:1-2: 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

A "God-fearer" was somone who had adopted the Jewish faith and lifestyle but had not yet undergone the ritual of circumcision. Rome granted an exemption to Jews from worship of Roman gods, but did not grant such an exemption to Roman citizens who became proselytes because Rome considered this a double-loyalty. So, Cornelius was a Gentile who had adopted Judaism in every way except becoming a proselyte by circumcision. We can thus be assured that Peter did not eat non-kosher food in Cornelius' house.

Shimon

[Shimon]

Pray4Isrel:

I forgot to answer your other questions:

Show me specifically scripturally where my eating that pork was a sin. Can you back it up also with new testament sources?

First, why do you only wish to hear "New Testament" scriptures? It's all the same book, all the same message. God never commanded for there to be a separation page, dividing up the scriptures between 'Old' and 'New.' It's the same message from beginning to end, a progressive revelation.

In Genesis, we know that Abel knew what kind of animal to sacrifice to God. He didn't sacrifice a pig, he sacrificed a lamb:

Genesis 4:4: Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering

In Genesis Chapter, God commands Noah to take two of every kind of animal and seven of every *clean* animal:

Genesis 7:2: Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

In the book of Revelation, which was written as late as 96 CE, we find that there is still a distinction between "clean" and "unclean" animals:

Revelation 18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

So we see that there is a distinction between "clean" and "unclean" from beginning to end. Same message throughout scripture.

Shimon

[Pray4Isrel]

If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.  James 1:26-27

This was my morning reading.  I find it to be edifying to us all as believers and hope that we will never become so wrapped up in "religion" that we forget to be compassionate towards one another.

 

Originally posted by Shimon

 First, why do you only wish to hear "New Testament" scriptures? It's all the same book, all the same message. God never commanded for there to be a separation page, dividing up the scriptures between 'Old' and 'New.' It's the same message from beginning to end, a progressive revelation.

I never said that I "Only wish to hear NT scriptures".  I asked for NT references.  If there's one thing that frustrates me, it's when I am misquoted or when others put words in my mouth.  Please stick to the topic.  I asked for NT references because I know the OT ones quite well.  Now if this is too much to ask, that's fine but there's no need to criticize my honest question.  

In Genesis, we know that Abel knew what kind of animal to sacrifice to God. He didn't sacrifice a pig, he sacrificed a lamb:
In Genesis Chapter, God commands Noah to take two of every kind of animal and seven of every *clean* animal:
In the book of Revelation, which was written as late as 96 CE, we find that there is still a distinction between "clean" and "unclean" animals:
So we see that there is a distinction between "clean" and "unclean" from beginning to end. Same message throughout scripture. 

I understand sacrificial laws quite well.  Please tell me how the sacrificial laws apply to the dietary laws and please give me NT references!!! I already know PLENTY of OT references.  I still think that Acts chp 10 is to be taken literally. If you can prove to me it's not I will reconsider.

[EliasEmmanuel]

"Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,  and they sent this letter by them,

" The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,  men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."  So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement."

Acts 15:22-31 

-Elias

[Stormy]

So what do you think was the reason that God said some animals were clean and others unclean?

Do you think there was no reasoning behind this? Do you think it was instead, just a way to place a burden upon his people so that he could test them?

I may be wrong because I only spent a few minutes reading the dietary restrictions. But it seem to me that these were more of safeguards to protect a more primitive people from food that had more risk of being potentially harmful.

To think that because I eat a pork chop that I am doomed or unpleasing to God... is in my opinion... ridiculous.

[dignitized]

stormy: thats easy - unclean animals have been known to carry very serious diseases. Modern techology medicine have made that a non issue however. God have the dietary laws for our health.

I'll eat kosher when the Lord Himself Appears to me and tells me to give up Bacon double Cheese burgers . . . . and Bacon on pizza . . . . ummm bacon. That or when I cannot get grade A bacon anymore.

If liking bacon is a sin - I'm a sinner.

[Stormy]

Br. Max : I agree with you. I love bacon too! But I have been shying away from it a bit because of the States food program stand on it. I own and operate a small daycare that gets government assistance to help with the food cost. The government inspectors also want a major say in what the children eat. Mostly though it is just feeding them a good healthy diet.

Except for Bacon! Can you belief that it is not allowed. It has nothing to do with the laws imposed by God. But rather it is the nitrates added by man's processing of the pork. They are thought to be cancer causing. So to be on the safe side... serving bacon to the children is not allowed.

Off the subject maybe...

But something for us bacon lovers to think about. :yum:

[dignitized]

stormy: if I have to give up my bacon on Pizza I'll cry!! :(

Lets not forget that CELLPHONES have been connected to cancer too . . .

[Charles YTK]

Please allow me to add something to this thread which explains Kosher diet and also some of the other aspects of Judaism. Lets begin with Sabbath. (Don't worry I will be brief)

God divides our time Sabaths for the week, Rosh Kodesh for the month, The appointed feasts for the Year, Sabbatical every 7 years and Jubilees every 7 sevens of years. Why all this time dividing? God wants us to understand that their is common time and there is holy time. You see to an animal there is no reckoning of time at all. Every day is the same. There is light and there is dark, without interuption. A slave is similar to this, as they have only work days. Every day is Monday (Yikes!) But God wants us to be free men, and sons, So our time is sanctified by dividing, so that we do not become slaves again and have every day a work day, always seeking our fortunes. He wants us to take time each week to remember that we are free sons. So by Sabbaths, (Regular weekly and special high sabbaths) we santifiy time.

Now also God created the idea of Sex. Yes, Gods own plan! And it is a wonderful thing. But there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy its pleasures, is there not? Through marriage sex is sanctified, made to be a holy act. The marriage bed is undefiled. Outside of marriage and outside of heterosexual marriage, sex is an abomination. So by Gods limitations through the law once again, sex is blessed and sanctified. We control our bodies rather than our bodies controlling us. Just as we control out time, and are not slaves to it.

Now comes Kosher eating. Most things can be consumed, (unless it is toxic to us) but not all things are food. Neither is our appitites to control us so that we are all gluttons. We are to control our appitites not it controlling us. So once again God sactifies our eating though the law of Kosher foods, saying this is food, and this over here is not food and shall not be eaten. It makes a differentiation between the pure and the vile, just like sex and time. So also our eating is to be done in a holy manner. Everything we do is to be in a holy manner.

How do we santify our profits from business or from labor? Do we hord it all up to build a mantion for ourselves and to fill it with prescious and expensive items? Well some do. But if we want to experience a correct position concerning the blessings of God in our business, we share our gain with the poor. We sanctify our wealth by giving it away. (At least some of it to the extent that we are not possessed by our money, but rather we are stewarts of money in holiness.

I hope you are getting this, because my fingers are hurting, (for your sakes).

Charles YTK

[Stormy]

So you really think that God still does not want us to ... for example.... eat pork?

Be specific. Why put a ban on pork? I do not think God does things without reason. What is it that makes pork unclean?


One more really important question....

Is CHOCOLATE kosher? :yum:

[Charles YTK]

Stormy,

By the way I love your picture. Chocolate is Kosher yes. And I agree this is good news.

Pork is unclean because God says that it is. But if you want a few good human reasons, Swine is a bottom feeder a scavenger, and most of the dietary restriction are for scavengers and bottom feeders, like shell fish, and fish without scales such as cat fish. All bottom feeders are known to have more disease and toxins than anything else. God seems to have given them the purpose of cleaning up the garbage in the enviornment and gave them a biological physiology that allows them to carry these things without killing them. But it is passed on to the one who eats them. With a very small amount of research you can find a lot of information about the health problems concerning pork.

Another spiritual aspect might be that a clean animal has a parted hoove and chews the cud. And the swine has a parted hoof but does not chew the cud. It is therefore a close impostor to something that is clean all the while being just the opposite. So in that way it is similar to antichrist or a false prophet in the way it is perceived.
But Pork has a large lobby in Washington. Pork the other white meat!


Here is a list of biblical dietary laws and references from a rabinnical site. I do not agree with every rabbinical law, because some are taken a bit out of context, for example the Lord said "You shall not boil a calf in its mothers milk", Because this is cuelty and a common Pagan practice. But from that the Rabbinate ended up with you can not have milk and dairy at the same time. Which means no cheese on your burger, and no meat pizza with cheese ect. I think this is a misapplication of the biblical teaching, but was done as a hedge to keep people from accidently breaking the biblical commandment.:

Laws of Forbidden Foods

176 To examine the signs of animals to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:2
177 To examine the signs of fowl to distinguish between kosher
and non-kosher Deut. 14:11
178 To examine the signs of fish to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:9
179 To examine the signs of locusts to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:21
180 Not to eat non-kosher animals Lev. 11:4
181 Not to eat non-kosher fowl Lev. 11:13
182 Not to eat non-kosher fish Lev. 11:11
183 Not to eat non-kosher flying insects Deut. 14:19
184 Not to eat non-kosher creatures that crawl on land Lev. 11:41
185 Not to eat non-kosher maggots Lev. 11:44
186 Not to eat worms found in fruit on the ground Lev. 11:42
187 Not to eat creatures that live in water other than fish Lev. 11:43
188 Not to eat the meat of an animal that died without ritual slaughter Deut. 14:21
189 Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned Ex. 21:28
190 Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded Ex. 22:30
191 Not to eat a limb torn off a living creature Deut 12:23
192 Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17
193 Not to eat certain fats of clean animals Lev. 3:17
194 Not to eat the sinew of the thigh Gen. 32:33
195 Not to eat meat and milk cooked together Ex. 23:19
196 Not to cook meat and milk together Ex. 34:26
197 Not to eat bread from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
198 Not to eat parched grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
199 Not to eat ripened grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
200 Not to eat fruit of a tree during its first three years Lev. 19:23
201 Not to eat diverse seeds planted in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
202 Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
203 Not to drink wine poured in service to idols Deut. 32:38

Charles YTK

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Stormy,

Laws of Forbidden Foods

176 To examine the signs of animals to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:2
177 To examine the signs of fowl to distinguish between kosher
and non-kosher Deut. 14:11
178 To examine the signs of fish to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:9
179 To examine the signs of locusts to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:21
180 Not to eat non-kosher animals Lev. 11:4
181 Not to eat non-kosher fowl Lev. 11:13
182 Not to eat non-kosher fish Lev. 11:11
183 Not to eat non-kosher flying insects Deut. 14:19
184 Not to eat non-kosher creatures that crawl on land Lev. 11:41
185 Not to eat non-kosher maggots Lev. 11:44
186 Not to eat worms found in fruit on the ground Lev. 11:42
187 Not to eat creatures that live in water other than fish Lev. 11:43
188 Not to eat the meat of an animal that died without ritual slaughter Deut. 14:21
189 Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned Ex. 21:28
190 Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded Ex. 22:30
191 Not to eat a limb torn off a living creature Deut 12:23
192 Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17
193 Not to eat certain fats of clean animals Lev. 3:17
194 Not to eat the sinew of the thigh Gen. 32:33
195 Not to eat meat and milk cooked together Ex. 23:19
196 Not to cook meat and milk together Ex. 34:26
197 Not to eat bread from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
198 Not to eat parched grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
199 Not to eat ripened grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
200 Not to eat fruit of a tree during its first three years Lev. 19:23
201 Not to eat diverse seeds planted in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
202 Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
203 Not to drink wine poured in service to idols Deut. 32:38

Charles YTK

 

Any thoughts on the verses I posted?

-Elias

[Charles YTK]

Elias,

I am still not sure you were addressing me but I will answer. I believe your question was about the apostolic decree seen in Acts 15. First thing you should note is that this is a decision for Gentiles who are IN THE PROCESS of turning to faith. In other words they are new Pagan converts, and for the sake of table fellowship with mature believers and orthodox Jews with whom they will need to share the synagogues, they must learn some basic rules of behavior so as to not be an offense to more righteous sensibilities.

Also you should note that 3 of these laws are concerning Kosher law, what is clean and what is not. Th eGentiles are being given a starter course in Kosher law.

Third, you need to realize that this was not an end Goal for Gentiles but a point of entry into the new sect of Nazzarenes, (christians). They are to go on from this point and study the law in the synagogues. "For there are in every city those who teach Moses (Torah) every Sabbath in the synagogues" In other words do these basic things and learn from your local Rabbi in the synagogues the finer points of righteous life tyle in accordance with Torah.

Charles YTK

Your comment to this?

[Stormy]

Do you know a link where I could obtain a list of foods that are not Kosher. This is confusing to me.

Also .... Is it your understanding that God would be angry with us if we do not eat as he outlined? Or do you think that he was giving us this diet as a gift for our health.

BTW: Would we in fact be healthier if we ate Kosher?

[Susan]

"202 Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15"

And do you tithe your actual fruit? To keep this law you must give one tenth of ANY fruit you have to God.

[Susan]

The Law is there for the sole purpose of being a "tutor" or "guide" to the one Who fulfilled it completely, Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 4:14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

[Susan]

There are many more. Do a word search on "Law" in the New Testament and you will see in any version, in many verses, the Law Paul was referring to was the Mosaic Law. Not Gnostic, traditional/Talmudic, or Roman laws, not Greek law, but the Mosaic Law itself.

[Stormy]

Susan: You are of course right. That is why I question as I do. I will not accept the idea of Kosher eating as a requirement made upon me. I will though accept it as a possible source of guidance. Who better than our Creator knows what food is best for our consumption and our health?

But I do not think that I will ever eat a grasshopper or a locust. :sick:

[Charles YTK]

Susan,
You are correct that Paul says that you are not justified, (made acceptable to God) by works of the law, (obedience to its commands). And I agree totally. The Torah is not a salvation document no never was. Every man who was saved in the Old testament was saved by faith. Think of anyone in the scriptures and the message is clear, that it was Gods mercy that saved them Abraham, David, Ilijah, all by faith. Yet having been saved by faith they strived to live a life that was pleasing to God. How do we discover this? Through Torah, for it is both our instruction in righteous living, and our alarm to tell us when we have done wrong. We discover our sin by comparing our lives (thoughts and actions) to the Torah and where it does not line up appropriately we go to God in repentance and ask for his forgiveness. And he extends this forgiveness to us not because we are such wonderful creatures, but because God has made an ever lasting covenant with us through Yeshua theMessiah. But it does not end there. He gives us the spirit of Yeshua to live in our hearts so that we have the Torah in our hear and mind and begin to live according to its righteous precepts. You see this is not legalism in any form. It is living a life that is in submission to God through faith in Yeshua, allowing the spirit to work in us so that our lives begin to reflect the righteousness described in Torah and presented to us in the person of Yeshua.

Who sins? Everyone. Who is forgiven? The one who repents to God. What is sin? Breaking Gods Commandments.

Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

Stormy,

There is great little book out there that addresses the perfect diet for humans, "The Genesis Diet" by Gordon s. Tessler PhD. ISBN 1-881924-09-2

There have been many investigations made into the issues of Kosher food from a dietary point, and they agree that Kosher food is correct for us. I wish that I had a source for Kosher beef where I live but it is not available.

Processed bess is killed in the most inhuman way. The animals are driven down a narrow gate, and they smell the blood and hear the "screams" of the ones in front of them. So they begin to struggle in a panic to escape, they try jumping over the shutes and men with high voltage cattle prods and clubs force them back into the shute. Finall by the time the slaughterer get them and drive a nail into their skull to parallize them, they are filled with adreniline norepenepherine and a host of other hormones from their own systems. This all happen after stending two weeks in a stock yard eating horrible feed with all sort of chemicals that causes the cattle to retain water, (so that you pay more at the store, because the water weight added.)

In a Kosher setting, the animal is fed good grain and grasses, and at the time of slaughter, a blessing is given and the butcher approaches the animal separately, without fear. He speaks to the animal as he prays and calms the animal so that it is completely at reast. Quietly without the animal ever realizing it is even being injured, the butcher slips out a knif which is one of the sharpest blades ever made and cuts a small nitch in the main artery of the neck. The burtcher stays with the animal and continues to sooth it gently. After the animal is dead it is hung and the blood removed. After butchering, the meat is washed three time in salt water so make sure all blood products are removed and all possible toxins as well.

Sorry if this is too graphic. I am only supplying information to help your understanding.

Now concerning the Dietary laws let me ask you all something

Was it not the same God who said do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, worship no god but me, who also said keep my sabbath to be a holy day, make no carved images of any animal to use in your worship of me, AND eat only that which is clean and do not eat blood or anything that is unclean. Yes. It was the same God who gave us all of these. And the Lord Yeshua and the Disciples did always keep all these commandments to the best of their ability.

Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

To all,

It is not my place to convince you that you must eat Kosher nore do I want anyone to feel condemned by me. All I am saying is that you must take these questons to the Lord in earnest prayer. The Lord God gave us all the Torah for our benefit, as a guide to live holy before him. The same God who said it is an abomination for one man to have sexual relations with another man or with an animal, also said that swine is not to be eaten because it is an abomination. The church in its efforts to keep all the people it can in church, without offending anyone questions all of these. The general policy is anybody can do anything they want whith whomever they choose so long as it is done in secret and does not bring bad light to the church. (This may not be stated openly, but it is absolutely the policy in force.) No man is confronted for his sin. The law they say was done away with. They believe that Christians are all free form individuals that are regulated only by their own consciences. This is contrary to Gods word and the teachings of Jesus as well. Even Paul and theapostles never taught such heresies. We are to use the Torah as our instructions in what it is like to live the life of a healthy normal and righteous human being. It is the owners manual that comes in the glove box of every new human being. It has a complete service manual in it. Follow it. Do so with the example before you, Yeshua the Messiah who kept all of the Torah perfectly. If we are filled with his spirit and walk daily in obedience to Him all the righteous requirements will begin to be manifested in our lives as well, and we will begin to look like (have the attributes) of Jesus Himself.

The little campain of a few years back was so correct. WWJD What would Jesus Do? Now I say. DWJD Do what Jesus DID.

Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

Susan,
You asked " "202 Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15"

And do you tithe your actual fruit? To keep this law you must give one tenth of ANY fruit you have to God."

In the ancient times the monitary system was not standardized. The barter system was most common. Today we have common currecy. So if I am to apply the principle correctly then I should take in a tenth of what the fruit represents, my gain. This get into tithing and such, and before we go there we should really take a close look at what the tithe in the bible was used for. I think that once again we will see a vast difference between the correct use of tithes and what they go for today. I would be interested to read what you discover. It would be great if you would present this to us here. (Sorry, it the teacher in me.) But it is a serious suggestion. Would you be willing?

Charles YTK

[Stormy]

Charles YTK : I am going to try to find this book. But it seems to be difficult to almost imposible to follow a kosher diet where I live and shop.

It would seem that even switching to a vegetarian diet would not suffice.

What about chicken .... eggs... cheese .... fish with scales... fresh fruit and vegetables... breads and cereals... nuts... and beans.

What about soda... tea.. and coffee?

Are there any restrictions upon these?

If you eat Kosher, could you show me a sample daily diet of the foods that you eat?

Although I could live on chocolate ... I am sure that was not God's intention.:yum:

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Elias,

I am still not sure you were addressing me but I will answer. I believe your question was about the apostolic decree seen in Acts 15. First thing you should note is that this is a decision for Gentiles who are IN THE PROCESS of turning to faith. In other words they are new Pagan converts, and for the sake of table fellowship with mature believers and orthodox Jews with whom they will need to share the synagogues, they must learn some basic rules of behavior so as to not be an offense to more righteous sensibilities.

But the council didn't say "do these things and you'll get by until we can learn ya right". They didn't say "if you're a newbie, here's the basics", they said "The Holy Spirit sees fit to lay_no_greater_burden_on you than this...". And wouldn't sending out a decree like that have been terribly confusing to Torah-obediant gentiles?

Also you should note that 3 of these laws are concerning Kosher law, what is clean and what is not. Th eGentiles are being given a starter course in Kosher law

Third, you need to realize that this was not an end Goal for Gentiles but a point of entry into the new sect of Nazzarenes, (christians). They are to go on from this point and study the law in the synagogues. "For there are in every city those who teach Moses (Torah) every Sabbath in the synagogues" In other words do these basic things and learn from your local Rabbi in the synagogues the finer points of righteous life tyle in accordance with Torah.

But again, they didn't say "do this until you know the law". In fact Paul says the opposite on several occasions (Romans 7:6, 2 Cor. 3:6, Galatians ch. 3 and 4 et al). Paul even says circumcision (mandated by Torah) is no longer necessary and speaks harshly of those who were saying it was. He also said eating meat sacrificed to idols wasn't wrong in and of itself, but to be avoided for the sake of others.

"I know and am perfectly sure on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong." - Romans 14:14 

-Elias 

[Charles YTK]

Well Elias,
He does not say that this decision is for mature gentiles either. He say it is written to those among the Gentiles who are now turning to faith. New converts. And he ends it with a direction to the synagogues in their own towns where the law is taught. A lot is implied there isn't it.

Now lets go a step further and look at Gentiles who have been believers for a while. Does Paul just leave them alone to continue in their own Pagan lifestyles or does he chastise them and correct them to righteousness?

I Cor (Gentiles) 5: 9 In my earlier letter I wrote you not to associate with people who engage in sexual immorality. 10 ll didn’t mean the sexually immoral people outside your community, or the greedy, or the thieves or the idol-worshippers—for then you would have to leave the world altogether! 11 No, what I wrote you was not to associate with anyone who is supposedly a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn’t even eat! 12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging? 13 God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves.

Moving down to Chapter 7 as he continues this he addesses the need to convert to Judaism in order to be saved.:

18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn’t undergo b<rit-milah. 19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God’s commandments.

It is not legalism nore is it a matter of becoming a Jew in an outward sense. It is a matter of becoming a part of the called out community, from a heart level.
Ro 2: [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

Stormy,

Your heart is so open to God. You will be blessed.

In a very basic sense, Kosher can be simplified to avoiding swine, horse meat, reptiles and shellfish. Think of normal western food which you see in the market as being good except pork and shellfish, (Crab lobster, muscles, oisters, clams ect.) or fish with skins, (like catfish) which you may see in some markets.

This allows chicken, turkey, beef, lamb, goat, codfish Polok, Salmon, snapper,sardines, whitefish, most freshwater fish, and a great deal more. (I am trying to stay in the area of what is in the common grocecery)

All your grains, breads and veggies ect. Tea, Coffee, pop, wine, beer, anything made with natural foods, no problem. Chocolate, sure why not, except that in too large of quantities it is fattening, and gives some blemishes.

I have studied nutrition in college, and the secret is to eat lots of veggies especially dark colored ones, which have more food value, stay away from saturated fats, (Margerine, crisco, cooking oils, animal fat, ect) use oilive oil or light polyunsaturated vegitable oils like cannola. Make more of your diet out of grains and starches complex carbohydrates,(pasta,rice, breads) for this is what your cells really like to run on. In fact brain cells and red blood cells will only use glucose. If you are still growing or in a process of healing increase your protien intake, limit you intake of lipids, (fats to less than 10% of your total diet) We need only a small amount of meat protein in our diet, to maintain protein synthesis of new cell formation and drink lots of water about three liters daily. This is a simple overview.

Charles YTK

[EliasEmmanuel]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Well Elias,
He does not say that this decision is for mature gentiles either. He say it is written to those among the Gentiles who are now turning to faith. New converts. And he ends it with a direction to the synagogues in their own towns where the law is taught. A lot is implied there isn't it.

"But some of&nbsp;the sect of the&nbsp;Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to&nbsp;circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."&nbsp; The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.&nbsp;&nbsp;After there had been much&nbsp;debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days&nbsp;God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of&nbsp;the gospel and believe.&nbsp;&nbsp;"And God,&nbsp;who knows the heart, testified to them&nbsp;giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;&nbsp;and&nbsp;He made no distinction between us and them,&nbsp;cleansing their hearts by faith.&nbsp;"Now therefore why do you&nbsp;put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which&nbsp;neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?&nbsp;" But we believe that we are saved through&nbsp;the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." - Acts 15:5-11

Now lets go a step further and look at Gentiles who have been believers for a while. Does Paul just leave them alone to continue in their own Pagan lifestyles or does he chastise them and correct them to righteousness?

I Cor (Gentiles) 5: 9 In my earlier letter I wrote you not to associate with people who engage in sexual immorality. 10 ll didn’t mean the sexually immoral people outside your community, or the greedy, or the thieves or the idol-worshippers—for then you would have to leave the world altogether! 11 No, what I wrote you was not to associate with anyone who is supposedly a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn’t even eat! 12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging? 13 God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves.

This is pretty irrelevant to what we're talking about, not relating to Kosher law. No one's going to argue that selfishness, stealing, idolatry, and sexual immorality are ungodly....

Moving down to Chapter 7 as he continues this he addesses the need to convert to Judaism in order to be saved.:

Where in the above quote does it say one has to be a cultural Jew to be saved? And havn't you said repeatedly that adherence to Kosher law is not necessary for Salvation?

18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn’t undergo&nbsp;RIT-MILAH. <RIT-MILAH. <br commandments. God’s keeping is something mean does what nothing; means uncircumcised being and nothing, circumcised Being 19>

But doesn't that contradict Kosher law?

It is not legalism nore is it a matter of becoming a Jew in an outward sense. It is a matter of becoming a part of the called out community, from a heart level.

No argument here. In fact that's been my point.... but I don't see New Testament evidence that joining that called out community means being a Jew and keeping Kosher.

-Elias

[Charles YTK]

Eliah,

In this quote
Moving down to Chapter 7 as he continues this he addesses the need to convert to Judaism in order to be saved.:
I think you misunderstood. What I am showing is that the way Paul addresses the problem is to verify that we do not need to convert to Judaism to be saved. The conversion to Judaism is expressed through circumcision. The centurion Cornelius, was a man of faith who accepted Yeshua as messiah. But prior to this he was "aman who feared God" this is a term actually (God- fearer), which means a righteous Gentile or one who keeps the law. This was the testimony concerning him. But he had not converted to Judaism, which is done through circumcision. In all other respects he was obedient to the law of God.

Have you ever looked up the word "righteous" in the strongs concordance to see what it means?

1342 dikaios { dik’-ah-yos}

from 1349; TDNT - 2:182,168; adj

AV - righteous 41, just 33, right 5, meet 2; 81

GK - 1465 { divkaio" }

1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Elias&gt;&gt;No argument here. In fact that's been my point.... but I don't see New Testament evidence that joining that called out community means being a Jew and keeping Kosher.

Charles &gt;&gt;&gt; In several places like I Cor 7,, Paul speaks of the fruilessness of any long term plans and adjustments in ones situation, because testing the political and spiritual climate, he was convinced that there was too little time to get overly involved. Paul was not interested inlong term ministries and expected Christ to return any day. He even thought marriage might be too long of an involvement in light of the soon return of the Lord.

I Cor 7:28 But if you marry you do not sin, and if a girl marries she does not sin. It is just that those who get married will have the normal problems of married life, and I would rather spare you. 29 What I am saying, brothers, is that there is not much time left: from now on a man with a wife should live as if he had none— 30 and those who are sad should live as if they weren’t, those who are happy as if they weren’t, 31 and those who deal in worldly affairs as if not engrossed in them—because the present scheme of things in this world won’t last much longer. 32 What I want is for you to be free of concern. An unmarried man concerns himself with the Lord’s affairs, 33 with how to please the Lord; but the married man concerns himself with the world’s affairs, with how to please his wife; 34 and he finds himself split. Likewise the woman who is no longer married or the girl who has never been married concerns herself with the Lord’s affairs, with how to be holy both physically and spiritually; but the married woman concerns herself with the world’s affairs, with how to please her husband. 35 I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to put restrictions on you—I am simply concerned that you live in a proper manner and serve the Lord with undivided devotion.
36 Now if a man thinks he is behaving dishonorably by treating his fiancee this way, and if there is strong sexual desire, so that marriage is what ought to happen; then let him do what he wants—he is not sinning: let them get married. 37 But if a man has firmly made up his mind, being under no compulsion but having complete control over his will, if he has decided within himself to keep his fiancee a virgin, he will be doing well. 38 So the man who marries his fiancee will do well, and the man who doesn’t marry will do better.
39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives, but if the husband dies she is free to marry anyone she wishes, provided he is a believer in the Lord. 40 However, in my opinion, she will be happier if she remains unmarried, and in saying this I think I have God’s Spirit.

Later on in his final writings, Romans, he is more concerned with things that needed to be dealt with for the sake of merging the two groups, Jews and Gentiles into a single fellowship and sharing the same synagogues, and having table fellowship together. We should remember that in Romans Paul is talking to Gentiles who have allowed their freedom in foods and behavior cause offense to Jews whom they were in fellowship with, and they needed to reign in their free form life styles, because their free form was causing the Jews to reject Messiah. He warned them that if they continue in that kind of behavior the Jews would depart from the faith completely. And that is exactly what happened. Because the Gentiles took dominance over the church and the church in Rome took leadership due to the Jewish wars in Jerusalem, and the new sect of "christians" began teaching and praticing a religion that was contrary to Gods teaching. The differences were so great that men like Marcion could come along and teach that the God of the Jews was not the same God as the christains and that all the writings except for Pauls should be destroyed. And many people went for it and his influence in the church remains, even though he was later expelled as a heretic, his ideas are still hanging in there, having found a degree of acceptance, and carried to other teachers that would follow.

Charles YTK

[dignitized]

oy vey.


Righteousness - (heb. Sedeq; Gr dikia), PURITY of HEART and Rectitude of life; the BEING and doing of what is right.

**funny no mention of LAW here . . . **

UNGERS BIBLE DICTIONARY

God does not care about if I keep a dietary law that was created for the purpose of keeping the Israelites healthy. Modern food handling practices make such a law moot. When and if the time comes that I no longer have access to food which is free of disease such a triganosis, I’ll keep a kosher diet. God wants a CLEAN and CONTRITE heart. Stop worrying about outward observances and laws and start worrying about the state of your soul.

[Andrew]

Pray4Israel,

to answer your question, my church's/Pastor's view is that eating kosher food is good for your health. it has nothing to do with religious ideas/laws, though. but God, who designed our bodies, knows best what's good for it and what's not. the Jewish diet is thus very healthy, as any nutritionist wld agree.

my wife cooks only with Olive oil for eg. and we're trying to cut down on pork and prawns, which we Chinese love.

It is also said that you can just say grace over your food and sanctify it. but i think that verse says that the food is sanctified by the Word too, not just by your grace prayer. so, some food in the Bible is not sanctified ie the Bible does not recommend it.

anyway, that's the jist of it, it'll do our bodies a lot of good to follow the Jewish diet as closely as possible.

[SonWorshipper]

I believe in eating what God has sanctified as "Clean". I also believe in this:

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


So my question is, I have gone through my pantry and found some cans of baked beans and canned hams and since I am not eating pork I can't use these. I thought of taking them to the homeless shelter, but then I thought of Matt 5:19. In doing this will I be just as well teaching others to break this commandment? :confused:

[SonWorshipper]

BTW , I don't remember if this was mentioned or not but just the fact of the many times that Swine are mentioned in connection with heathens, god-haters, and disobedient should alert one to the fact that it is an abomination to eat this particular animal. This is also alluded to in the New Covenant where the legions of demons ask to be put into a herd of swine AND the Lord grants that request. Where it to become OK to eat them why would he demonstrate that in front of all that He did?

Also between covenants he who has been likened to the Anti-Messiah – Antiochus Epiphanies desecrated the Temple of God with a sacrifice of a Swine!

Psalms 1

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[dignitized]

Oh the bondage of the law . . . I'm so glad that I have the spirit and not the bondage

[SonWorshipper]

Pray4Israel, Charles, Shimon? Could you tell me your opinions on the canned goods thing please?

[Pray4Isrel]

Hi Sonworshipper,
Hmmmmmmmmmm... I have been pondering this entire thread for quite some time. For once I think I will not speak ;) in order to see what others have to say about this because I also am curious. So what does everyone think about the canned goods?

[Pray4Isrel]

Hi Sonworshipper,
Hmmmmmmm... I have been pondering this entire thread for quite some time. For once I think I will not speak ;) i

[Pray4Isrel]

Hi Sonworshipper,
Hmmmmmmm... I have been pondering this entire thread for quite some time. For once I think I will not speak ;) in order to see what others have to say about this because I also am curious. So what does everyone think about the canned goods?

[Susan]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Oh the bondage of the law . . . I'm so glad that I have the spirit and not the bondage

Amen, brother, amen. :)

About your canned food, sonworshipper: As this is a matter of personal conviction, I am very sure there are some hungry people that&nbsp;do not share the kosher conviction, and&nbsp;who would be VERY thankful for your canned ham. Hope that helps :)

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance.

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance.

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance.

[Susan]

Well, I would be surprised that 150 diseases exist in anything, first of all, except maybe a sewer.

Most if not all diseases of swine ARE killed by cooking. Other diseases, as in other animals, are avoided by not eating certain body parts of the animal (like the brain, the intestines and other digestive organs, the spinal cord, the reproductive organs, and the fatty tissue around such organs)

In fact, I would pronounce ground beef more dangerous than whole pork at this time due to mad cow, which is truly a disease that cannot be killed by cooking. And cows spinal cords and brains sometimes get into ground meat.

My point is that for health, you should eat small amounts of meat, but try to avoid frequent eating of ground animal meats and the organs I mentioned. (which too often end up in ground meat) If you must eat ground/processed meat, fowl and fish are less likely to harbor illnesses that are the most dangerous (like mad cow in cows, scrapie in sheep, and wasting disease in venison)

[Susan]

Originally posted by A Sheep
In other words, if I choose to eat no meat, drink no pop/coffee/tea, eat no cookies/ice cream/etc., just so I am MUCH healthier and live longer for my future wife and family, is that not a good thing?

If it is about trying to gain favor with God or trying to earn salvation, it is clearly wrong. But simply for health reasons for your future spouse and family?

In that last case, it is perfectly OK. But if you are doing it "for God's favor" in any way, then I would say to rethink your motives.

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance.

[dignitized]

I would remind people that in time of famine that pork is allowable even under the kosher and the muslim dietary laws. As I have said already - with the current cooking and meat handling practices, many goods which according to the kosher laws are acceptable are less healthy for you than a slab of bacon!! Bleached flour and refined sugar are some of the VERY WORST things that you can put into your bodies. So if you are going to speak of health reasons for keeping a set diet, I suggest that you begin by eliminating those "food" from your diet before you go writing off bacon and ham :)

(as I eat a ham and cheese sandwich. )I'd be soooo bad at kosher. I'd be the like the Jewish guy who gets the bacon on the BOTTOM of his bacon double cheese burger . . . .

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance.

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance.

[A Sheep]

Edited-out my ignorance

[Susan]

I would say that quote is not factual.

[A Sheep]

Here's a great quote that proves that one to be wrong:


First, hygiene can only account for some of the prohibitions. Some of the clean animals are more questionable on hygienic grounds than some of the unclean animals. If ancient Israel had discovered the dangers of eating pork, they might also have discovered that thorough cooking averts it [sic]. In any event, trichinosis is rare in free-range pigs ...

Secondly, the OT gives no hint that it regarded these foods as a danger to health ...

Third, why, if hygiene is the motive, are not poisonous plants classed as unclean?

Finally, if health were the reason for declaring certain foods unclean in the first place, why did our Lord pronounce them clean in his day [Mark 7:19]? Evidence is lacking that the Middle Eastern understanding of hygiene had advanced so far by the first century A.D. that the Levitical laws were unnecessary. Indeed, if the primary purpose of the food laws was hygienic, it is surprising that Jesus abolished them.

Source: Wenham, Leviticus, (Eerdmans, 1979), pp.167-168.

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Br. Max
I would remind people that in time of famine that pork is allowable even under the kosher and the muslim dietary laws. As I have said already - with the current cooking and meat handling practices, many goods which according to the kosher laws are acceptable are less healthy for you than a slab of bacon!! Bleached flour and refined sugar are some of the VERY WORST things that you can put into your bodies. So if you are going to speak of health reasons for keeping a set diet, I suggest that you begin by eliminating those "food" from your diet before you go writing off bacon and ham :)

(as I eat a ham and cheese sandwich. )I'd be soooo bad at kosher. I'd be the like the Jewish guy who gets the bacon on the BOTTOM of his bacon double cheese burger . . . .

Aw Rats!&nbsp; See&nbsp;I was fine until you brought up the flour and refined sugar ;)&nbsp; I mean I don't initially like pork so eliminating that wasn't an issue, but when you talk about SUGAR, well thats another story! :D&nbsp; (I love my carbohydrates and sweets!) Heehee... :sorry:

&nbsp;

[Mr. John]

I believe this should settle the matter: When Peter had his vision in Acts 10:9-17; we see that God showed Peter all the animals that were unclean by Mosaic Law. However, God said it was now cleansed. Of course in vs. 28; after Peter went into Cornelius house and said that it was unlawful for a Jew to keep company or come unto a person of a different nation by Mosaic Law. However, it should be noted that God declared the gentiles clean as well as the animals. A gradual change in program from the Messianic Kingdom church to the body of Christ. Can you of the remnant see this? :D

Mr. John

[SonWorshipper]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
Hi Sonworshipper,
Hmmmmmmmmmm... I have been pondering this entire thread for quite some time. For once I think I will not speak ;) in order to see what others have to say about this because I also am curious. So what does everyone think about the canned goods?

OK, P4I , I understand! LOL, all three times!;)

[SonWorshipper]

I don't see where it meant animals, I think the Lord was showing Kefa that what he previously thought was unclean, going to the house of one of the nations ( the nations being represented by all the animals and creeping things) they were now OK to go in and fellowship with. It didn't mean he was to go and have a Ham samdwich!

Any way I have reconciled this and am giving the food to the shelter. As the Lord views life more important than Kosher, I will not waste the food. I dont' feel I am causing any to stumble here, only to help those who have not. For those that are jobless and homeless, it is indeed a true famine for them.

[Hector Medina]

I chose:I follow no dietary laws after having been freed to eat of all animals.

I figure the Kosher laws are nice to follow(I can see why the Jews do) but nowadays there is just so much diffrent kinds of food availible,whatever............
We are sinners either way at the worst case scenario.


God Bless,

Hector

[SonWorshipper]

When were you freed?

[Hector Medina]

A few yrs ago I guess(2000)......
Thats when I found out about Kosher laws in Deuteronomy.


In Christ,

Hector

[SonWorshipper]

Do you mean you were eating Kosher and then stopped?:scratch:

[Hector Medina]

No,

I never ate Kosher.


I never really worried about it.

--Hector

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Pray4Israel,
I am afraid you have misunderstood what the vision was about. Read the following chapter, and Peter Himself explains the vision as not being about food but about the acceptance of the Gentiles. If you want to make this vision about dietary food laws, then you are going against what the understanding that the Lord gave Peter concerning this and added to that you are throwing away the very event where God told the disciple that the Gentiles were acceoted and able to recive salvation. I do not believe you would want to through such an important verse away.

Please allow me to state also that there is a biblical way of eating Kosher and this is quite a bit different from the Rabbinical traditions, which took the biblical restrictions and added to them by magnitudes and made them a burden, just as Yeshua said, that they had made the law, into shuch an awful burden that no man could carry it. It was not a burden in and of itself. It was the Phaisaican/Rabbinical traditions added to it that perverted it. As Yeshua said, "You make the law of no effect by your traditions",, "teaching as doctrine the commandments of men."

Charles YTK

Hey I think you are right, I just got that! Thanks!

Man I was taught that in error a long time, You are right though I think, he means Gentiles...

Pork makes me ill anyway. I always wondered why God would repeatedly talk so disdainfully of swine and then allow people to eat it,, it's not healthy I get ill from pork.

Do I gotta give up my oysters though? I do love oysters and crab too. Never gotten sick from them and now is the season even.... :)

[Live4Jesus]

hey didn't Paul say this stuff, which was under the ordinances , is only a sin if you think it's a sin?

[SonWorshipper]

Hector: I chose:I follow no dietary laws after having been freed to eat of all animals.

Sonworshipper: When were you freed?

Hector: A few yrs ago I guess(2000)......Thats when I found out about Kosher laws in Deuteronomy.

Sonworshipper: Do you mean you were eating Kosher and then stopped?

Hector: No,I never ate Kosher.I never really worried about it.


Sonworshipper: :scratch: Seriously confused :scratch: