Harry Potter is great.

[higgs2]

I'd rather argue about this than evolution. :sorry:

[SeenAndUnseen]

I'd rather argue about this than evolution. :sorry:

You won't get an argument out of me. :D Harry Potter really is great.

[pmcleanj]

Totally apart from the whole Onion-story-created issue of children turning to witchcraft as a result of reading Rowling novels, Harry Potter is NOT good. So there!

Harry Potter, the character, is mediocre. He isn't particularly clever (that's Hermione) or noble (that's Cedric) or loyal (that's Ron). He just "comes from good family". Doubtless that's a very English virtue, but I don't see it as a great virtue to celebrate here in the colonies, where ability is supposed to count more than blood.

More significantly, Harry Potter the series of novels is mediocre too. They are becoming increasingly formulaic with each sequel. The character development isn't particularly profound, and the dilemmas are shallow. The world-view, or context, isn't "tight". And the ideas aren't all that unique.

Magic is great in make-believe and novels. But Mary Norton, Alan Garner, and E. Nesbitt did a far better job of it: tighter concept, more believable characters, subtler and more spiritual dilemmas -- and far, far more beautiful use of English. Even Eric Eager gives a better performance (and is more accessible to American audiences, who don't need to have concepts like "Philosopher's Stone" translated into "Sorcerer's Stone" when reading his tales, since he writes in the American idiom).

Harry Potter has great marketting -- but that's a different thing from being great!

[higgs2]

Totally apart from the whole Onion-story-created issue of children turning to witchcraft as a result of reading Rowling novels, Harry Potter is NOT good. So there!

Harry Potter, the character, is mediocre. He isn't particularly clever (that's Hermione) or noble (that's Cedric) or loyal (that's Ron). He just "comes from good family". Doubtless that's a very English virtue, but I don't see it as a great virtue to celebrate here in the colonies, where ability is supposed to count more than blood.

More significantly, Harry Potter the series of novels is mediocre too. They are becoming increasingly formulaic with each sequel. The character development isn't particularly profound, and the dilemmas are shallow. The world-view, or context, isn't "tight". And the ideas aren't all that unique.

Magic is great in make-believe and novels. But Mary Norton, Alan Garner, and E. Nesbitt did a far better job of it: tighter concept, more believable characters, subtler and more spiritual dilemmas -- and far, far more beautiful use of English. Even Eric Eager gives a better performance (and is more accessible to American audiences, who don't need to have concepts like "Philosopher's Stone" translated into "Sorcerer's Stone" when reading his tales, since he writes in the American idiom).

Harry Potter has great marketting -- but that's a different thing from being great!

I do remember Nesbitt and Eager, and how about T.H. White too? :) in fact, lots more, but I'm blank on the names.

have you noticed the class distinctions that Rowling makes in the books? I think it's interesting, the nobility or purebloods are evil and the working class, civil servants (Weasleys) are good. Harry is both, and it's not clear exactly what it is that makes him so special. But I don't think it's fair to say he's mediocre. And there's a hint of a dark side, especially when he begins to feel Voldemort's feelings...

So how do you feel about the "Babysitter's Club"? :sorry:

I think the movies are great fun, I've enjoyed them.

[Andy Broadley]

:doh: :D

Yea, but all those other authors didn't come up with Hagrid and his 8 foot tall girlfriend.:D

[Inside Edge]

Higgs gets 10 bonus points for starting this thread! :D

[Yahweh Nissi]

HP is certainly very good - a really enjoyable, gripping read.

Now, 'The Onion' really is great! :thumbsup:

[karen freeinchristman]

Mary Norton, Alan Garner, and E. Nesbitt did a far better job of it


I would love to read some of these other authors; I have a slight problem with endeavouring to read the Harry Potter series, simply because I don't like "following the crowd". The fact that it is so popular and successful actually turns me off it. :sorry:

[Andy Broadley]

I would love to read some of these other authors; I have a slight problem with endeavouring to read the Harry Potter series, simply because I don't like "following the crowd". The fact that it is so popular and successful actually turns me off it. :sorry:

I've actually only read the first book, the rest I have just seen the movies.

Good though

[Andy Broadley]

My fave quote "You're a little bit scary, you are. brilliant. But scary" (Ron to Hermione)

[erin74]

I just like what they have acheived as far as getting kids to read - and it's a great readable story - not brilliant, but enjoyable.

I agree the books aren't what they were - and she is really just riding the hype now, but I still enjoy them.

[No Swansong]

Don't read them. (HP books) Never will. Nor will I allow them read in my home.

But since I haven't read them I am not a good one to give an opinion upon their literary value.

[karen freeinchristman]

Don't read them. (HP books) Never will. Nor will I allow them read in my home.

But since I haven't read them I am not a good one to give an opinion upon their literary value.

Wow, great! This thread has just got more interesting!

"Nor will I allow them read in my home"...

Might I ask why not? :confused:

[gtsecc]

Harry is a Baptized Christian with a God Father.

[Ebor]

Harry Potter, the character, is mediocre. He isn't particularly clever (that's Hermione) or noble (that's Cedric) or loyal (that's Ron). He just "comes from good family".


Well, I'd say that Harry has strength of character and loyalty and courage. He's had to come out of a horrible "family" life. The orphan in hard circumstances is a common theme in stories. By not being the best at something like Hermione he fills the situation of "Every Kid" it's easy for children to understand what he is, I think.

(side note: how do I change colours in the typing here please?)


Magic is great in make-believe and novels. But Mary Norton, Alan Garner, and E. Nesbitt did a far better job of it

If you are thinking of "Wierdstone of Brisingamen" and "Moon of Gomrath" by Garner I suspect that the people who get wound up about magic in HP would *really* be upset by some of what's in those books with the background of Old Magic and the Wild Hunt and more.

Which Mary Norton are you thinking of? "Bedknobs and Broomsticks"? I don't think the Anti-HP group would care for Miss Price either.

Ebor

[Ebor]

But since I haven't read them I am not a good one to give an opinion upon their literary value.

That is so refreshing to read after too many "I haven't read them, but I still can pontificate about how terrible they are".

Thank you.

Ebor

[ContraMundum]

I really like Harry Potter but no one will ever write fantasy like Michael Moorcock. If you don't know about the Eternal Champion multiverse then you have some adventure ahead of you to get into.

[Ebor]

I really like Harry Potter but no one will ever write fantasy like Michael Moorcock. If you don't know about the Eternal Champion multiverse then you have some adventure ahead of you to get into.

Moorcock is good. But I don't think that he's for children. Maybe some YA (young adult i.e. mid to late teens) but more for adults I think. Partly because some of his works are rather complicated in reference and time and situations (Jherek Cornelian books for example)

Ebor

[SirTimothy]

David Eddings is good. The first three Rowlings books were terrific. The fifth wasn't bad. The sixth's ending was appallingly badly written.

[Andy Broadley]

Wow, great! This thread has just got more interesting!

"Nor will I allow them read in my home"...

Might I ask why not? :confused:

:doh: Here we go....:D

[ContraMundum]

Harry is a Baptized Christian with a God Father.

....but he's not converted and breaks these commandments practically every day:

Exo 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Lev 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Deu 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

So, he's not a terribly GOOD Christian, is he?


(hehehehe...someone had to turn this thread into another annoying religious debate, didn't they?) :D

[TomUK]

I've read them all but think they've got progressively worse since azkaban (the most recent one was useless). I agree with Pamela - average stories, great marketing.

[Andy Broadley]

Moorcock is good. But I don't think that he's for children. Maybe some YA (young adult i.e. mid to late teens) but more for adults I think. Partly because some of his works are rather complicated in reference and time and situations (Jherek Cornelian books for example)

Ebor

If you want HP for grown ups, look no further than Terry Pratchetts discworld series.

Ook ook ook

[Andy Broadley]

..

So, he's not a terribly GOOD Christian, is he?


(hehehehe...someone had to turn this thread into another annoying religious debate, didn't they?) :D

Neither am I, so I'm not gonna hold that against him:preach:

[higgs2]

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Well, I'd say that Harry has strength of character and loyalty and courage. He's had to come out of a horrible "family" life. The orphan in hard circumstances is a common theme in stories. By not being the best at something like Hermione he fills the situation of "Every Kid" it's easy for children to understand what he is, I think.

[SIZE=4][COLOR=darkorchid][FONT=Times New Roman](side note: how do I change colours in the typing here please?)



If you are thinking of "Wierdstone of Brisingamen" and "Moon of Gomrath" by Garner I suspect that the people who get wound up about magic in HP would *really* be upset by some of what's in those books with the background of Old Magic and the Wild Hunt and more.

Which Mary Norton are you thinking of? "Bedknobs and Broomsticks"? I don't think the Anti-HP group would care for Miss Price either.

Ebor
Good ideas. I think the "orphan in hard circumstances" as well as the "boarding school" theme are intriguing for modern readers, especially when mixed with the magic. I think the first book was the best, it was so new and surprising.

My 8 year old son *loves* Harry Potter! He just built a Durmstrang Ship out of a lego kit :)

[higgs2]

I would love to read some of these other authors; I have a slight problem with endeavouring to read the Harry Potter series, simply because I don't like "following the crowd". The fact that it is so popular and successful actually turns me off it. :sorry:
I resist "Oprah" books for the same reason :eek:

[gtsecc]

I believe they may be especially appealing to those who went to boarding school.

[AveMaria]

It's amazing, what the books have done in terms of getting so many children to willing read for fun and to try their hand at writing.

I have a secret life as a staff member on a HP fan fiction website, and it's just incredible how many of these kids would have rather plucked their own eyeballs out than picked up a book . . . before Harry. And now they're analyzing characters and learning about mythology and even trying their hand at writing fanfiction (which is a good start for creative writing - several have branched out from there and are writing original stuff now).

Additionally, HP has been a gateway for many of them to pick up C.S. Lewis and other notable authors (I'm blanking on the names of the others right now). :)

It's truly a blessing to be a part of this 'magic'. (I'm getting all misty eyed now!)

[karen freeinchristman]

I resist "Oprah" books for the same reason :eek:

Fortunately the Oprah books haven't made it across the Pond!

[karen freeinchristman]

However, I did see the Scooby-doo movie the other night, and noticed how much higgs2 resembles Velma! :D
;)

[Ebor]

I believe they may be especially appealing to those who went to boarding school.

Or those who wished they could have gone to boarding school. Or to those who find a new situation like boarding school so different from what they know that they are intrigued and want to read more.

Ebor

[higgs2]

However, I did see the Scooby-doo movie the other night, and noticed how much higgs2 resembles Velma! :D
;)

:mad: Thanks so much Karen :mad:

My 4 year old daughter likes to "play" Scooby doo, and she is always Daphne and makes me be Velma. :mad:

[higgs2]

Or those who wished they could have gone to boarding school. Or to those who find a new situation like boarding school so different from what they know that they are intrigued and want to read more.

Ebor
Yes, I agree with this.

[karen freeinchristman]

:mad: Thanks so much Karen :mad:

My 4 year old daughter likes to "play" Scooby doo, and she is always Daphne and makes me be Velma. :mad:

:sorry:





:hug:

[higgs2]

:sorry:





:hug:
Hello, Karen. Happy now? :D

[Andy Broadley]

muggles muggles everywhere....

[karen freeinchristman]

Hello, Karen. Happy now? :D

:clap:


That's great!! I love it!!! :thumbsup:

[No Swansong]

Wow, great! This thread has just got more interesting!

"Nor will I allow them read in my home"...

Might I ask why not? :confused:

Sure,
Scripture tells me to avoid all appearance of evil. Witchcraft although not accurately portrayed in the HP books is presented in the books (from the reviews that I have read) as something that can be a good thing. Scripture calls it an abomination. I do not take lightly the easy acceptance of something scripture calls an abomination. Pretty simple actually. I don't condemn those who do read the books I have a hard enough time minding my own business, but if I am asked I offer my opinion.

[karen freeinchristman]

Sure,
Scripture tells me to avoid all appearance of evil. Witchcraft although not accurately portrayed in the HP books is presented in the books (from the reviews that I have read) as something that can be a good thing. Scripture calls it an abomination. I do not take lightly the easy acceptance of something scripture calls an abomination. Pretty simple actually. I don't condemn those who do read the books I have a hard enough time minding my own business, but if I am asked I offer my opinion.

That's fine by me! :)

[Andy Broadley]

That's fine by me! :)

me too :thumbsup:

[Wiffey]

I am always bemused when certain parts of Leviticus get dragged out (like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") while (unless one is an Orthodox Jew) we all happily ignore most of Leviticus' 600+ laws.

Either we should apply all of Leviticus, or we should just thank God that Jesus came to fulfill the law so we are free from the crushing burden of it.

But quoting Leviticus in order to condemn a person (or fictional character) while we eat all manner of traif (non-Kosher food) and wear clothes that are a blend of two or more materials (also a no no in Leviticus) and fail to set fire to various random farm animals as atonement for our sins (as prescribed by Leviticus)....y'all get my drift.

[Andy Broadley]

I am always bemused when certain parts of Leviticus get dragged out (like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") while (unless one is an Orthodox Jew) we all happily ignore most of Leviticus' 600+ laws.

Either we should apply all of Leviticus, or we should just thank God that Jesus came to fulfill the law so we are free from the crushing burden of it.

But quoting Leviticus in order to condemn a person (or fictional character) while we eat all manner of traif (non-Kosher food) and wear clothes that are a blend of two or more materials (also a no no in Leviticus) and fail to set fire to various random farm animals as atonement for our sins (as prescribed by Leviticus)....y'all get my drift.

What she said :thumbsup:

[Ebor]

If you want HP for grown ups, look no further than Terry Pratchetts discworld series.

Ook ook ook

I like Pratchett. But don't forget Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg and the others. More 'witches' to get some people wound up.;)

Ebor

[No Swansong]

I am always bemused when certain parts of Leviticus get dragged out (like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") while (unless one is an Orthodox Jew) we all happily ignore most of Leviticus' 600+ laws.

Either we should apply all of Leviticus, or we should just thank God that Jesus came to fulfill the law so we are free from the crushing burden of it.

But quoting Leviticus in order to condemn a person (or fictional character) while we eat all manner of traif (non-Kosher food) and wear clothes that are a blend of two or more materials (also a no no in Leviticus) and fail to set fire to various random farm animals as atonement for our sins (as prescribed by Leviticus)....y'all get my drift.

You know I really did not want to get into this but since I am the only one here who has spoken against the books I can only assume this post is directed my way.

If you will read carefully although the witchcraft is an abomination comes from the Old Testament the quote which is the main thrust of my post is from 1Thessalonians chapter 5. In which we are told to 'abstain from all appearance of evil'

Additionally in Galations witchcraft is mentioned along with adultery,fornication, idolatry and murder as works of the flesh which "they which do such things shall not inherit the the kingdom of God."

So; if you so desire to read HP that is fine by me, I in no way believe that people who read the books will fall into witchcraft any more than I believe that someone who watches A Few Good Men will become JAG attorneys. However it is clear from the NEW TESTAMENT that witchcraft is not only condemned under the Old Covenant but also the New, and therefore is evil which I and everyone else who counts themselves a Christian is admonished to avoid.

[higgs2]

You know I really did not want to get into this but since I am the only one here who has spoken against the books I can only assume this post is directed my way.

If you will read carefully although the witchcraft is an abomination comes from the Old Testament the quote which is the main thrust of my post is from 1Thessalonians chapter 5. In which we are told to 'abstain from all appearance of evil'

Additionally in Galations witchcraft is mentioned along with adultery,fornication, idolatry and murder as works of the flesh which "they which do such things shall not inherit the the kingdom of God."

So; if you so desire to read HP that is fine by me, I in no way believe that people who read the books will fall into witchcraft any more than I believe that someone who watches A Few Good Men will become JAG attorneys. However it is clear from the NEW TESTAMENT that witchcraft is not only condemned under the Old Covenant but also the New, and therefore is evil which I and everyone else who counts themselves a Christian is admonished to avoid.
If you feel that way then you are acting with integrity in not reading the books or having them in your house. I respect that.

[Simon_Templar]

I am always bemused when certain parts of Leviticus get dragged out (like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") while (unless one is an Orthodox Jew) we all happily ignore most of Leviticus' 600+ laws.

Either we should apply all of Leviticus, or we should just thank God that Jesus came to fulfill the law so we are free from the crushing burden of it.

But quoting Leviticus in order to condemn a person (or fictional character) while we eat all manner of traif (non-Kosher food) and wear clothes that are a blend of two or more materials (also a no no in Leviticus) and fail to set fire to various random farm animals as atonement for our sins (as prescribed by Leviticus)....y'all get my drift.

Hey :) ALL RIGHT!!! so now that we've got that out of the way, we should think about getting a seance together... break out some ouija boards... maybe a try a little diviniation!!
I know a couple of witches I'm sure would be more than happy to teach us some spells we could try out while we're at it!! :thumbsup: ( <- I'm not kidding about knowing the witches).


Seriously, I have read all the Harry Potter books and I enjoyed them, despite being not terribly well written.
I think Harry Potter books are probably not the best option for kids simply because of the confusion that could result. Witchcraft is a real thing, it is the major focus of at least on real religion which is actually growing in popularity. The witchcraft and wizardry in HP is not real, but kids are impressionable and easily influenced.
One of the things CS Lewis said about the chronicles of Narnia was that he wanted the books to create an impression of beauty for kids so that as they grew through life, they would recognize that beauty, specificly in christianity. The danger of HP is that it could have a similar effect sometimes. Basicly creating a positive ascociation that you might not want your kids to have.

I don't think there is a problem for teens or adults reading them provided they have reasonable head on their shoulders.

As for the books themselves, probably the worst feature is, as was pointed out earlier, the formulaic plots. The first and second book were almost identical in the basic plot outline.
There is an aspect to the books that I don't think alot of people have picked up, at least no one seems to mention it in conversations like this. It is the idea that Harry's Character is from the very beginning struggling between light and darkness. He is very much like Voldemort in many respects, he could be voldemort, and many of his desires pull him that way. In the end what always holds him back is his friends and his family. Harry isn't supposed to be the perfect good guy. The point is that he feels the draw of the darkness. Ultimately the only difference between Harry and Voldemort is choice. The circumstances of their lives are very similar, they are both powerful, so many things tie them together. The difference in the end is that Harry chooses love, where voldemort chose selfishness and hate.

This whole thread became a bit more interesting in the last installment when it became more clear that Voldemort actually in a sense created Harry. Voldemort's actions, his fear, and his hate are what created Harry... Harry, in turn, has gone through much of the very same things that voldemort experienced in his life that made him who he is.. both orphans, both mistreated as children, both find that their extraordinary power is the one thing that gives them control over their circumstances when they are being mistreated by others. Both discover their power by accident. To both hogwarts is a refuge from their hateful "normal" life. The first point of difference is that while voldemort hated his parents, Harry loves his. From there voldemort chose the path of power in slytherin... Harry chose gryfindor and honor, why? because his only friend went there, and he preferred friendship to power.
At Hogwarts, Voldemort feared and hated Dumbledor, but Harry respects him and loves him.

ah well, enough rambling.

[Andy Broadley]

I like Pratchett. But don't forget Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg and the others. More 'witches' to get some people wound up.;)

Ebor

lol. If Magrit Garlick is a tool of the devil then the church aint got much to worry about:D

besides, we got the Librarian on our side.

Ook Ook

[Andy Broadley]

The train station they use as the station at Hogwarts is about 30 minutes drive from where I live.

[karen freeinchristman]

The train station they use as the station at Hogwarts is about 30 minutes drive from where I live.

I bet you try out that brick wall every now and then!

[Andy Broadley]

I bet you try out that brick wall every now and then!

Whcih brick wall?

It's actually the same station that they use in Heartbeat:)

[karen freeinchristman]

Whcih brick wall?

It's actually the same station that they use in Heartbeat:)

I'm talking about that brick wall where Harry jumps through into Hogwarts. I've only seen the first film, so I might not be remembering it very well.

[Andy Broadley]

I'm talking about that brick wall where Harry jumps through into Hogwarts. I've only seen the first film, so I might not be remembering it very well.

I think I'm with you now. Do you mean the one on the platform that he has to run at to get to the train?

That at the paddington station end of the line.#

Goathland station is the one they use at the school end.:)

[karen freeinchristman]

I think I'm with you now. Do you mean the one on the platform that he has to run at to get to the train?

That at the paddington station end of the line.#

Goathland station is the one they use at the school end.:)

Yeah, that's it!

I can't remember the Goathland station bit. :sorry:

[Andy Broadley]

Yeah, that's it!

I can't remember the Goathland station bit. :sorry:

Do you recall the end of the first film where the pupils are getting on the train to go home for the holidays and Hagrid gives harry that Photo album of his parents?

That's Goathland station:)

[karen freeinchristman]

Do you recall the end of the first film where the pupils are getting on the train to go home for the holidays and Hagrid gives harry that Photo album of his parents?

That's Goathland station:)
Oh yeah. Wow, that's 30 minutes away from you? How awesome! Can I have your autograph? :D


;)

[Andy Broadley]

Oh yeah. Wow, that's 30 minutes away from you? How awesome! Can I have your autograph? :D


;)


http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/caterpillar/50/signature.gif

[karen freeinchristman]

http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/caterpillar/50/signature.gif

:confused:

[Andy Broadley]

:confused:

*shrugs*

If higgs can be Velma, I can be Bill Gates :D

[romaneagle13]

Hey my husband and I love Harry Potter!