Use of scapulars among Anglicans

[pmcleanj]

This is an official moderator post.

This thread is essentially a reopening of the "Brown Scapular" thread. Please note the following ground rules:

Scapulars are not a common piety among Anglicans. If you use a scapular and wish to discuss its use, please start by describing:
What it is
What it looks like
What it means or symbolizes
How you use it
Why you use it.


Scapular use may be associated with particular monastic communities; and many of those communities are part of larger communions that deny the validity of much Anglican praxis. Some of those communities may promote doctrines which are offensive to some Anglicans. If you are opposed to scapular use for these or other reasons, please start by describing why you are opposed, and how broad your opposition is (that is, are you opposed to anyone using the scapular for any reason, or just to any use that endorses particular doctrines that you find dangerous or offensive).

Please stay on the topic of the scapular, and the doctrines and piety associated with it. Please avoid either making personal comments, or taking any comments personally. If someone appears not to have taken into account something that you've posted, please consider the possibility that some fault lay with the original post, and reword or expand. If someone appears to be posting inconsistantly please consider the possibility that some fault may lie with your understanding, and ask for further exposition.

I will be moderating this discussion very strictly with an eye to vthe no-flaming and no-baiting rules.

Regards,
Pamela

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Hello! :wave:

I suppose I'll start. Thanks for reopening a thread on this Pamela.

What it is. The Brown Scauplar, which I wear, is a modified version of the Carmelite monastic habit. The habit is believed to have been given to St. Simon Stock, an English monk, in 1251 by Our Lady. She promised him that "Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire."

What it looks like. The Brown Scapular consists of two pieces of brown wool (sometimes a medal, called a scapular medal, is used. Many scapulars are encased in plastic or wood.) which are attached on a cord. One piece is worn over the chest and one over the back. It may be worn within or without the clothing.

What is means or symbolizes. The Brown Scapular means trust in Our Lady's intercession with God, and her promise of special protection to those who devoutly wear it. It is also a reminder of our mortality, and to attempt to live a life of prayer.

How you use it. The Scapular is used alongside another devotion, such as the rosary or more traditionally, the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary. These prayers are required to be said daily by those enrolled in the scapular, though it may be worn by all people regardless of their choice of prayers.

Why you use it. Venerable Francis Ypes, who often combated spritually with the devil, was told once by Satan to "take off that habit which snatches so many souls from us!" St. Margaret Mary said the Brown Scapular was one of Our Lady's favorite expressions of our love for her. I use it as a reminder of spritual warfare, my own mortality, and mostly as a symbol of trust in the intercession of Our Lady and as a token of my love for her. To me, it is a call to prayer and the Christian life. It is a sure means of salvation coupled with devotion due Christ, according to my belief.

Thanks! I Look forward to fruitful and charitable conversation. :)

[SeenAndUnseen]

You have done a great job explaining the brown scapular, and as you know I also practice this devotion. (just wanted to offer you a bit of support.) :hug:

[pmcleanj]

What it is. The Brown Scauplar, which I wear, is a modified version of the Carmelite monastic habit. ...
A monastic's habit is a poweful tool of the religious life. A good description of the power of the habit can be found at http://www.osb.org/aba/2000/jpkelly.html. Quoting from that essay, 'The habit conveniently answers the "what to wear" question, while it discourages vanity. As we ascend in the nobility of our reasons, we see this uniform helping us identify ourselves as a community. Further, the simplicity of the material and the style reminds us of gospel values. Further, it reminds us of our commitment promises. This simple uniform reminds all those we rub elbows with of the Good News, largely because they see us pursuing the gospel with heart and hand in various areas of life. Finally and perhaps most importantly, we see our clothing as a constant reminder that we belong to God through the instrument of our monastic community.'
Some of these reasons are the same reasons that schools and military organizations use uniforms. As a former soldier, not to mention former Girl Guide, I recognize the appeal of the uniform.

As I understand it, the vestigial scapular is commonly a practice among lay oblates of religious communities. It's a way they can share in the symbolism and identity-building power of their order's habit, even when they cannot by reason of their daily obligations, wear the actual habit.

However, I would think that any power exercised in this context over the powers of darkness, are exercised through the lives of prayer, piety and service lived by those monastics and oblates. The souls snatched from Satan are most likely those who, through the ministry of Carmelite religious and oblates, are brought to knowledge of Christ.

I'd like to hear from those who are such oblates, as to whether they feel or expect any additional reassurance or grace, over and above the confidence they enjoy because of the rich prayer-life and service that they share with God. Is it the scapular that brings grace, or the godly life that it symbolizes?

What is involved in being "enrolled in the scapular"? Is that a form of third-order oblation? For those who wear the scapular but are not oblates or "enrolled" in some way, what stops you from being enrolled? Usually, it's considered wrong to wear the uniform of an organization you don't belong to. Of course, that may be because worn outwardly, such a false show would be fraudulent. What does it mean when it is worn hidden, but without the vows that make the monastic life into an offering?

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I'd like to hear from those who are such oblates, as to whether they feel or expect any additional reassurance or grace, over and above the confidence they enjoy because of the rich prayer-life and service that they share with God. Is it the scapular that brings grace, or the godly life that it symbolizes?

What is involved in being "enrolled in the scapular"? Is that a form of third-order oblation? For those who wear the scapular but are not oblates or "enrolled" in some way, what stops you from being enrolled? Usually, it's considered wrong to wear the uniform of an organization you don't belong to. Of course, that may be because worn outwardly, such a false show would be fraudulent. What does it mean when it is worn hidden, but without the vows that make the monastic life into an offering?



Hello Pamela, :wave:

Being enrolled in the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular spritually joins one to the Religious Community of Mt. Carmel, generally as a Third Order or Tertiary. Most people who wear the Scapular are enrolled therein. However, some who feel they do not have a calling to the Lay Carmelite Order often choose not to be enrolled. As it is believed Our Lady intended the scapular to be not for the Carmelites only, but for the whole world, those not enrolled as a Tertiary may still wear it. It's a Christian uniform of sorts, while having Carmelite roots, it's not exclusive to that Order.

With all sacramentals, there is a fear people may believe that the item itself calls down power from heaven. That is one extreme, and is incorrect. The scapular is not a magical charm. The other extreme is turning it into a mere symbol, bringing about no unique grace. That would also be incorrect. The scapular itself does confer grace, because of Our Lady's promise, but only when worn in honest devotion and piety is this grace effective.

Some are called to wear the scapular outwardly, others are not. I generally wear mine outwardly as a means to witness the Christian faith and the love of Our Lady to the world. It has been very effective, I feel, as many are asking questions, being instructed, and at length desiring the scapular themselves. However, when it becomes a false show of humility I replace it under my clothing. When worn hidden, it is has all the same graces and symbolism.

[Yahweh Nissi]

Hello Pamela, :wave:

Being enrolled in the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular spritually joins one to the Religious Community of Mt. Carmel, generally as a Third Order or Tertiary. Most people who wear the Scapular are enrolled therein. However, some who feel they do not have a calling to the Lay Carmelite Order often choose not to be enrolled. As it is believed Our Lady intended the scapular to be not for the Carmelites only, but for the whole world, those not enrolled as a Tertiary may still wear it. It's a Christian uniform of sorts, while having Carmelite roots, it's not exclusive to that Order.

With all sacramentals, there is a fear people may believe that the item itself calls down power from heaven. That is one extreme, and is incorrect. The scapular is not a magical charm. The other extreme is turning it into a mere symbol, bringing about no unique grace. That would also be incorrect. The scapular itself does confer grace, because of Our Lady's promise, but only when worn in honest devotion and piety is this grace effective.

Some are called to wear the scapular outwardly, others are not. I generally wear mine outwardly as a means to witness the Christian faith and the love of Our Lady to the world. It has been very effective, I feel, as many are asking questions, being instructed, and at length desiring the scapular themselves. However, when it becomes a false show of humility I replace it under my clothing. When worn hidden, it is has all the same graces and symbolism.

Thanks for the info, I found it interesting - especially the middle bit, as after reading your first post I had decided to ask a question about this, until I read Pamela's!

Whilst I would certainly disagree with calling anything but communion and baptism a sacrament, given that you do think the Scapular is, that seems like a very good description of what a sacrament is. However, what you say here does not quite seem to fit with one bit you said in your first post; "It is a sure means of salvation coupled with devotion due Christ, according to my belief." To be sure, a sacrament confers grace, when used by a believer, but it is different to say it is a means of sure salvation, even with the coupled to devotion to Christ bit. Surely true devotion to Christ is a sure means of salvation anyway - how can wearing a Scapular make it 'surer', is that not like saying you are going to make something that is already perfect more perfect?

Love YN.

[SeenAndUnseen]

Whilst I would certainly disagree with calling anything but communion and baptism a sacrament, given that you do think the Scapular is,

Actually, the scapular is a sacramental, not a sacrament. Holy water is another example of a sacramental.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Thanks for the info, I found it interesting - especially the middle bit, as after reading your first post I had decided to ask a question about this, until I read Pamela's!

Whilst I would certainly disagree with calling anything but communion and baptism a sacrament, given that you do think the Scapular is, that seems like a very good description of what a sacrament is. However, what you say here does not quite seem to fit with one bit you said in your first post; "It is a sure means of salvation coupled with devotion due Christ, according to my belief." To be sure, a sacrament confers grace, when used by a believer, but it is different to say it is a means of sure salvation, even with the coupled to devotion to Christ bit. Surely true devotion to Christ is a sure means of salvation anyway - how can wearing a Scapular make it 'surer', is that not like saying you are going to make something that is already perfect more perfect?

Love YN.

Hello Yahweh Nissi! :wave:

The scapular is not a sacrament, sorry for any confusion in terminology. It is a sacramental (along with blessed palms, religious medals, ashes, holy water, icons, rosaries, ect...). A sacramental simply means a devotional item.

I should also clarify, the scapular is certainly not a requirement for salvation, but can lead to the salvation of others, as it is effective with piety and Christian devotion in mind. Surely, devotion to Christ is a sure means of salvation. And the scapular consists first and foremost of devotion to Christ. :)

[Fish and Bread]

Sounds like I can wear one of these things and commit all the sin I want because I'm still going to get saved for wearing it unless I take it off to shower and slip and fall, right? ;) I'm kind of kidding, but that seems to be the implication what this vision of Mary is alleged to have said.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Sounds like I can wear one of these things and commit all the sin I want because I'm still going to get saved for wearing it unless I take it off to shower and slip and fall, right? ;) I'm kind of kidding, but that seems to be the implication what this vision of Mary is alleged to have said.

^_^ Not exactly, John! While Our Lady uses the scapular to liberally dispense Christ's grace, only those attempting to devoutly live the Christian life will find it effective. It is certainly an aide to salvation, but not in the way the post-Evangelical "Sinner's Prayer" allegedly is.

It has been said if you wish to die in sin, you will, but you won't die in your scapular! ;)

[Yahweh Nissi]

Hello Yahweh Nissi! :wave:

The scapular is not a sacrament, sorry for any confusion in terminology. It is a sacramental (along with blessed palms, religious medals, ashes, holy water, icons, rosaries, ect...). A sacramental simply means a devotional item.

I should also clarify, the scapular is certainly not a requirement for salvation, but can lead to the salvation of others, as it is effective with piety and Christian devotion in mind. Surely, devotion to Christ is a sure means of salvation. And the scapular consists first and foremost of devotion to Christ. :)

Thanks for the clarification (and SeenAndUnseen). I certainly had not thought that you were saying it's a requirement for salvation.

I must say that I am somewhat uncomfortable with such piety, but you attitude to it seems to be great, and I pray that God will use it to richly bless you :pray:

Love YN.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Thanks for the clarification (and SeenAndUnseen). I certainly had not thought that you were saying it's a requirement for salvation.

I must say that I am somewhat uncomfortable with such piety, but you attitude to it seems to be great, and I pray that God will use it to richly bless you :pray:

Love YN.

:) Thank you very much for your open attitude and wonderful questions! God bless, Our Lady keep you. :clap:

[Filia Mariae]

^_^ Not exactly, John! While Our Lady uses the scapular to liberally dispense Christ's grace, only those attempting to devoutly live the Christian life will find it effective. It is certainly an aide to salvation, but not in the way the post-Evangelical "Sinner's Prayer" allegedly is.

It has been said if you wish to die in sin, you will, but you won't die in your scapular! ;)

Mysterium Fidei,

Have you read Swimming With Scapulars? I think you would enjoy it, its kind of autobiographical but the beginning is this whole personal meditation on the scapular and salvation. Its cool.:)

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Mysterium Fidei,

Have you read Swimming With Scapulars? I think you would enjoy it, its kind of autobiographical but the beginning is this whole personal meditation on the scapular and salvation. Its cool.:)

I saw it at the Catholic Bookstore. I wanted to flip through it, but didn't get a chance. Thanks for the suggestion! :)

[Ahazmat]

I am confused. This sounds like Romanish practice. Is this a practice of the Anlican Rite of the Roman Catholic Church.

[PaladinValer]

Ahazmat, many Anglicans use the Marian rosary. It isn't a "Romish" practice; it is a Christian one.

There is nothing wrong with petitioning the Blessed Mother of God to pray for us.

[Ahazmat]

But she is a woman who is dead and sleeping according to the Cof E!

[gtsecc]

I am confused. This sounds like Romanish practice. Is this a practice of the Anlican Rite of the Roman Catholic Church.


We can't assume all Roman Catholic practices are bad, and all Anglican practices are Good.
As Kalistos Ware says "In the West it is usual to think of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as opposite extremes; but to an Orthodox they appear as two sides of the same coin."
We can’t define Christianity as being not Roman Catholicism.

[PaladinValer]

But she is a woman who is dead and sleeping according to the Cof E!

Wrong on so many levels:

Anglicanism is amillennialistic and adherent to the Nicene Creed. As such, we deny such notions as "soul sleep."
Souls cannot sleep. As incorporeal, they have limitless energy. This is logical and therefore, Reasonable.
Christ conquered death, stripping it of all its power. Death is not a barrier to life anymore. This is in basic Christian orthodox theology.
Souls cannot die. They are of a stuff that is immortal. This is logical and therefore, Reasonable.A few Anglicans hold to such notions, but they are not only few but also aren't being terribly logical nor Apostolic. I'm quite certain a few Vatican Catholics and other Apostolic Churches have similar problems.

Feel free to petition your Heavenly Mother as often as you wish. I personally find it of great comfort that I can converse with her often whenever I feel like I need to.

[TomUK]

Agree with you totally PV, except for the point that something being 'logical' seems to make it reasonable. Pigs can fly is logical but as far as i know it's not reasonable.

However i am happy to say that devotions to Our Lady are very much alive in the Church of England! :clap:

[PaladinValer]

If it is logical, then it is reasonable. Logic=Reason, or at least valid reason (is that the point you are making ?).

As for pigs, they cannot fly, so it isn't logical. Of course, put them in a controlled environment designed for rapid evolution, and I'm sure you'd have a new species of flying hogs ;)

[Ahazmat]

Wrong on so many levels:

Anglicanism is amillennialistic and adherent to the Nicene Creed. As such, we deny such notions as "soul sleep."
Souls cannot sleep. As incorporeal, they have limitless energy. This is logical and therefore, Reasonable.
Christ conquered death, stripping it of all its power. Death is not a barrier to life anymore. This is in basic Christian orthodox theology.
Souls cannot die. They are of a stuff that is immortal. This is logical and therefore, Reasonable.A few Anglicans hold to such notions, but they are not only few but also aren't being terribly logical nor Apostolic. I'm quite certain a few Vatican Catholics and other Apostolic Churches have similar problems.

Feel free to petition your Heavenly Mother as often as you wish. I personally find it of great comfort that I can converse with her often whenever I feel like I need to.
Ok scratch the sleep. Fine Jesus said the dead sleep but ok whatever.
But according to the CofE Mary is a Dead woman.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Ok scratch the sleep. Fine Jesus said the dead sleep but ok whatever.
But according to the CofE Mary is a Dead woman.

I wasn't aware that the CofE had a doctrinal position that defines Our Lady as dead. Remember that our God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. Mary is alive in heaven, ever praising God and praying for her Christian brothers and sisters on earth. :)

[PaladinValer]

You've contradicted yourself:

-She is not dead because souls cannot die. That's a fact, not an opinion to hold.
-Holy Tradition has taught that, after her Dormition, she was Assumed body and soul into Heaven, where she is still today.

Please read Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (The Seattle Statement). That is an official Anglican statement.

[RadixLecti]

Remember that our God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. Mary is alive in heaven, ever praising God and praying for her Christian brothers and sisters on earth. :)

I'm not very Marian, but I have to admit, I like the way that sounds. ;)

[kiwimac]

As a TO Franciscan I find the whole Scapular 'thing' a little strange. Just my 2C.

Kiwimac

[2cents]

You've contradicted yourself:

-She is not dead because souls cannot die. That's a fact, not an opinion to hold.


Sorry friend, but you cannot prove factually that a soul even exists, let alone whether or not it can die.

[TomUK]

Sorry friend, but you cannot prove factually that a soul even exists, let alone whether or not it can die.

Well scripture tells us that Christ is the shepherd and overseer of our souls. That's good enough for me!

[PaladinValer]

Anglicanism, like all orthodox Christianity, upholds the existence of the soul, which is dicussed and remarked upon in Scripture and Tradition.

[SirTimothy]

Jesus said: "I have come that you might have life..." and the famous: "God so loved the world... that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

The idea that when we die here on earth is not true death was established by Christ himself, on the Cross of Calvary, Hallelujah!

[2cents]

My statement was in reference to a dogmatic assertion of a "fact" when in fact the existence of a soul, or Jesus, or Moses must be taken on faith not some proven fact, as if PV has some sort of scientific evidence for the existance of an eternal soul. We believe in souls, but to date I'm pretty sure nobody has one bottled up in a lab somewhere.

Anywho... sorry for the rabbit trail.

[2cents]

Anglicanism, like all orthodox Christianity, upholds the existence of the soul, which is dicussed and remarked upon in Scripture and Tradition.

I've been around the ECUSA long enough to know that lots of them don't uphold anything! The church I attend would commune an athiest, probably even make him a bishop.

[PaladinValer]

Science cannot bottle up God either. Do you now dismiss Him too?

This is the problem with a lot of people who put too much emphasis on "proof." Faith is the abscence of complete assurance. There may be proof, but it never is truly complete. You cannot prove God exists and you cannot prove He doesn't exist; you can simply point to X, W, and Z, and formulate conclusions based off of that.

Christianity teaches souls exist. Therefore, souls exist, according to my faith. No, it isn't proof, but that isn't required for it to be true.

And actually, with all due respect, my post about the Anglican Communion is correct. That Statement is a valid document of belief.

[Ahazmat]

I wasn't aware that the CofE had a doctrinal position that defines Our Lady as dead. Remember that our God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. Mary is alive in heaven, ever praising God and praying for her Christian brothers and sisters on earth. :)
I seem to remember the teaching from church, but i cant find in the 39 articles.
Surely the Cof E does not celebrate Annunciation day nor do they teach that Mary is the Mother of God do they. Have I been asleep that long?
It seems Ian ... oh wait he is Presbyterian.

[Ahazmat]

They may have already made her a bishop if her political orientation is Politically Corrupt enough.

[PaladinValer]

Surely the Cof E does not celebrate Annunciation day

It is optional.

nor do they teach that Mary is the Mother of God do they.

:doh:This is Nestorianism.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I seem to remember the teaching from church, but i cant find in the 39 articles.
Surely the Cof E does not celebrate Annunciation day nor do they teach that Mary is the Mother of God do they. Have I been asleep that long?
It seems Ian ... oh wait he is Presbyterian.

Hey Ahazmat! :wave:

If I am correct, the 39 Articles of Religion are no longer binding on the Clergy or Laity in most parts of the Anglican Communion. Rather, they are kept as a historical document.

Many parishes within the CofE and wider Anglican Communion do celebrate the Annunciation, and it is infact listed as a Holy Day in the prayer book of ECUSA. Several of our liturgical calenders actually list it along with the note "commemorate the season".

The position of Mary as the Mother of God is actually defined Anglican doctrine, to my knowledge. To say otherwise would advocate a heresy of the Early Church, known as Nestorianism. This belief advocated the view that Christ was fully man, but not fully God. Therefor Mary would only be the mother of the body of Jesus Christ. This view teaches he was later on adopted by God at baptism.

The Chalcedon Definition of 451 A.D. (which is found in the ECUSA prayer book) states that Christ was "...for us men and for our salvation, [born] of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer (Theotokos)..."

Hope that helps!

[PaladinValer]

I should note that just because it is listed in the historical documents doesn't automatically mean it isn't officially doctrine. Quite the contrary. It means it isn't used liturgically.