[open] Jew / gentile, Convent of Israel / Noahide covenant?

[Achichem]

I am curious as to how many Torah observant peoples follow this sentiment:
The so-called noahide laws are something rabbis came up with - not something specifically found in scritpure.

I also like to know if your comfortable with any distinction between Jew & Gentile? (not talking before G-d, just in a community and expectation)

and; How you understand the word "covenant"?

Thanks,
Peace,

[Vaneeza Malkah]

Well I reject the idea in christianity that all mankind but christians is condemned to hell ;) I would have a difficult time believing that only the chosen people have an opportunity in the world to come, and the rest of mankind is condemned to hell for all eternity...On the other hand I can't believe that the sabbath should be disallowed for goyim which is taught by noachide...

[Henaynei]

I am curious as too how many Torah observant peoples follow this sentiment:
The so-called noahide laws are something rabbis came up with - not something specifically found in scripture. The core of the noachide laws is in Torah, the "flesh" is found in Oral Tradition, aka Talmud :)

I also like to know if your comfortable with any distinction between Jew & Gentile? (not talking before G-d, just in a community and expectation)I am quite comfortable with it. I am a Messianic Ger Toshav - I am not and likely never will be Jewish or accepted on any level by the Jewish community at large as anything but a threat (those Jewish folk who actually know me IRL on a personal level accept that I am a goy who loves Israel and Her G-d and who does her best to obey that G-d out of love for Him alone and not out of any desire or expectation of acceptance or gain)

and; How you understand the word "covenant"?

Thanks,
Peace, is more binding than a legal contract and goes beyond the signatories to their descendants

[debi b]

I also like to know if your comfortable with any distinction between Jew & Gentile?

As I have watched over the course of many years, I have seen develope the same conditions that were present at the time of the disciples. I think that this will be a very real challenge for many! It is putting real flesh and bones on the words of Paul.

[Mordechai18]

Whew - you really had me going with that "Convent of Israel" title!!:D

[Vaneeza Malkah]

Whew - you really had me going with that "Convent of Israel" title!!:D

think that was supposed to be covenant, what's a convent anyway?

[Mordechai18]

think that was supposed to be covenant, what's a convent anyway?

I know it was supposed to be Covenant - I misspel things all the time! :)

A convent is a place inhabited exclusively by Catholic nuns.

[Vaneeza Malkah]

I know it was supposed to be Covenant - I misspel things all the time! :)

A convent is a place inhabited exclusively by Catholic nuns.

ah I see, you misspell things all the time :P thought it was something catholic...I don't think I've ever seen a nun before :sorry:

[Tishri1]

Well I reject the idea in christianity that all mankind but christians is condemned to hell ;) I would have a difficult time believing that only the chosen people have an opportunity in the world to come, and the rest of mankind is condemned to hell for all eternity...On the other hand I can't believe that the sabbath should be disallowed for goyim which is taught by noachide...me too:groupray:

[Tishri1]

As I have watched over the course of many years, I have seen develope the same conditions that were present at the time of the disciples. I think that this will be a very real challenge for many! It is putting real flesh and bones on the words of Paul.My thoughts exactly:clap:

[Tishri1]

Whew - you really had me going with that "Convent of Israel" title!!:D^_^

[MattyJames]

As I have watched over the course of many years, I have seen develope the same conditions that were present at the time of the disciples. I think that this will be a very real challenge for many! It is putting real flesh and bones on the words of Paul.

This is how I feel too.

[visionary]

I am not comfortable with noahide laws, something just does not sit right with my soul about this. I know it is rapidly gaining all walks of life, from the political arena, to the religious arena, so maybe that is part of it. Truth is not popular in political arenas... so something is fishy. Can't put my finger on it, but I just can not picture Yeshua giving the :thumbsup: for noahide.

[Tishri1]

I am soooooooooo happy to meet a Noahide that believes in Yeshua though:hug:. That is what is important here bottom line:thumbsup:

[Mordechai18]

Here's something:

Contemporary Judaism tells us that people don't need to convert to Judaism in order to be in G-d's good graces.
I think this is slightly misleading, because idolatry, paganism, polytheism, etc. are not considered acceptable to G-d. So, can a polytheistic Hindu continue his polytheistic faith and still have G-d's acceptance? I don't think so.
So, gentiles need not convert to Judaism to be blessed, but they do need to worship the One God.

And would the rules given during the time of Noah function as those basic requireements given before the full covenant and mitzvot were given specifically to the Jews?

[Tishri1]

Here's something:

Contemporary Judaism tells us that people don't need to convert to Judaism in order to be in G-d's good graces.
I think this is slightly misleading, because idolatry, paganism, polytheism, etc. are not considered acceptable to G-d. So, can a polytheistic Hindu continue his polytheistic faith and still have G-d's acceptance? I don't think so.
So, gentiles need not convert to Judaism to be blessed, but they do need to worship the One God.

And would the rules given during the time of Noah function as those basic requireements given before the full covenant and mitzvot were given specifically to the Jews?Personally I feel if someone is led by G-d's Spirit to observe more than what a Rabbi says to do, then they should obey G-d, over the Rabbi...And on the other hand, if all you do is a few Torah rules and feel soooooo convicted by ABBA that that is all he wants you to do who can argue with that either:wave:

[Henaynei]

Here's something:

Contemporary Judaism tells us that people don't need to convert to Judaism in order to be in G-d's good graces.
I think this is slightly misleading, because idolatry, paganism, polytheism, etc. are not considered acceptable to G-d. So, can a polytheistic Hindu continue his polytheistic faith and still have G-d's acceptance? I don't think so.
So, gentiles need not convert to Judaism to be blessed, but they do need to worship the One God.

And would the rules given during the time of Noah function as those basic requireements given before the full covenant and mitzvot were given specifically to the Jews?perhaps :)

If I can venture to borrow from my protestant upbringing (sorry)......

I view the instructions given to Noah as the minimum required, i.e. G-d's "permissive will" and the instructions given at Sinai as G-d's Perfect will - for my money BOTH require faith/trust :)

[Ivy]

I'm very comfortable with distinctions between Jew and Gentile.......I believe God created us different from one another for the purpose of mutual blessing, interdependence, and affection. I love the Jewish people with all my heart and I also love being a Gentile.

:-)

[visionary]

I think that noahide was created by jews who wanted to keep the separation between jews and gentiles, and we are to come together into one people.

[Ivy]

Here's something:

Contemporary Judaism tells us that people don't need to convert to Judaism in order to be in G-d's good graces.
I think this is slightly misleading, because idolatry, paganism, polytheism, etc. are not considered acceptable to G-d. So, can a polytheistic Hindu continue his polytheistic faith and still have G-d's acceptance? I don't think so.
So, gentiles need not convert to Judaism to be blessed, but they do need to worship the One God.



I guess there is something in the tradition that says that all the righteous will have a share in the world to come, isn't there? Of course, that depends on what "righteous" means.

I'm skeptical that people who are engaging in what C.S. Lewis called "the obscenities and cruelties of paganism" would fall into the category of righteous, for instance, and it doesn't seem right to assume these people will just be o.k. somehow.

I feel like there is a degree of teaching responsibility on the Jewish nation, to tell what they know of God--not that the goal should be that all peoples and nations will worship in the same cultural style all the time--but I believe the Jewish people can be used as a sort of role model, as someone who has gone first.

[Vaneeza Malkah]

what about the many gentile nations who used to bring representatives to the temple yearly during yom kippur for the atonement of sins?

[Tishri1]

but I believe the Jewish people can be used as a sort of role model, as someone who has gone first.like a light to the worldPsalm 89:15 15 How blessed are the people who know the joyful sound! O LORD, they walk in the light of Thy countenance.
Proverbs 4:18 18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.
Isaiah 42:6 6 "I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness, I will also hold you by the hand and watch over you, And I will appoint you as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,
Isaiah 49:6 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
Isaiah 60:3 3 "And nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.
Matthew 5:14-16 14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 "Nor do men light a lamp, and put it under the peck-measure, but on the lampstand; and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
John 8:12 12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."
John 9:5 5 "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 12:36 36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and He departed and hid Himself from them.
John 12:46 46 "I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness.
Acts 13:47 47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us, 'I have placed You as a light for the Gentiles, That You should bring salvation to the end of the earth.'"
Acts 26:23 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He should be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
Ephesians 5:8-10 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

[Mordechai18]

what about the many gentile nations who used to bring representatives to the temple yearly during yom kippur for the atonement of sins?

Sounds like some righteous Gentiles to me. :thumbsup:

[visionary]

Jewish World

Sanhedrin Moves to Establish Council For Noahides
01:39 Sep 29, '05 / 25 Elul 5765
By Ezra HaLevi

A council of non-Jewish observers of the Seven Laws of Noah has been selected and will be ordained by the reestablished Sanhedrin in Jerusalem this January.

====================

This recent movement to get the world to accept noahide laws is lead and taught by jews who clearly do not want gentiles to pollute their blood or their faith. This uniqueness mentality in their relationship to God has created an answer for the gentiles who want to worship their God.

http://webpages.charter.net/chavurathbneinoach/FAQs.html

Here is their "logic and reasoning"

Several important people in the Tanakh were Noachides, righteous people outside or before the covenant at Sinai. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all Noacides with the addition of the covenant of circumcision. As Genesis 18:19 says, "For I have singled him out, that he may instruct his children and his posterity to keep the way of the L-RD by doing what is just and right, in order that the L-RD may bring about for Abraham what He has promised him."1 Since this was before the covenant of Sinai, it seems that there was known to Abraham the "way of the L-RD" and what G-d considered just and righteous, a way that needed to be taught to children. Though the rabbis of the Talmud deduce the laws of Noach from only a few verses of the Torah, using other verses as support, I have found what I think are other indications of these laws in the Torah. Though the laws are not, in many cases, derived from the verses I have found, the verses give support to the 7 laws. Seven are the number of colors in the rainbow which G-d turned into a symbol of His covenant with Noach and his decedents, so it seems to me to be especially appropriate that the laws are seven in number.

http://share.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1040/Jewish/7mitzvot.htm Now seven colors of the rainbows is symbolic of the seven laws that God gave Noah?????

I really do have a problem with b'nai faith and the seven laws of noah that they are promoting with great success. I am fearful of the consequences of their success for their sake, for they know not what they do. God in the last days is calling a people to be united under Him... "keeping the commandments of God and faith in Yeshua" and this movment clearly does neither and justifies it with rabbidical authorizations.

[Henaynei]

Jewish World

Sanhedrin Moves to Establish Council For Noahides
01:39 Sep 29, '05 / 25 Elul 5765
By Ezra HaLevi

A council of non-Jewish observers of the Seven Laws of Noah has been selected and will be ordained by the reestablished Sanhedrin in Jerusalem this January.

====================

This recent movement to get the world to accept noahide laws is lead and taught by Jews who clearly do not want gentiles to pollute their blood or their faith. This uniqueness mentality in their relationship to God has created an answer for the gentiles who want to worship their God.

http://webpages.charter.net/chavurathbneinoach/FAQs.html

Here is their "logic and reasoning"

Now seven colors of the rainbows is symbolic of the seven laws that God gave Noah?????

I really do have a problem with b'nai faith and the seven laws of noah that they are promoting with great success. I am fearful of the consequences of their success for their sake, for they know not what they do. God in the last days is calling a people to be united under Him... "keeping the commandments of God and faith in Yeshua" and this movement clearly does neither and justifies it with rabbinical authorizations.
vis,

I don't have a problem with this at all ..... and it is NOT about pollution :scratch:

There have always been gentiles who wanted to "travel" with Israel. Some for righteous reasons, some for financial, personal or perceived benefit. Many want to "travel" but not make the commitment to become truly Jewish.

I know of dozens of folks that I have personally watched truly convert to Judaism in the last few years. There is no barrier to them except one they make. It is traditional and wise that the Jewish community denies and turns inquirers away, at least 3 times. The history of conversion to Judaism is rife with folks who converted only to deny, walk away from or even betray the Jewish community when "being Jewish" was inconvenient or dangerous. Conversion needs to be reserved for those willing to not give up and who continue to knock in the door even when turned away, those for whom the calling to become Jewish burns and will give them no rest.

There needs to be a place, indeed always has been a place, for those who "travel with" Israel but don't, for what ever reason, become one with her.

Now, it is true that because of the betrayal and animosity of Christianity historically the Jewish community does not "open their arms" to those they perceive as Christians in kippot - i.e. Messianics. Messianics are quite often perceived as a threat to the Jewish community. I understand that and in not too few cases I totally agree. There are those, few but real, among the MJ community who desire to live according to both the written Torah and the oral Traditions - who daily strive to obey G-d and respect His people. These folk most often, because of their core motivation, recognize and accept the Jewish view toward them. In fact most refuse to allow themselves to be called Jewish because they have not yet been permitted "conversion" and are quite willing to wait on HaShem for the right and righteous time and timing.

b'Shalom
Henaynei :)