[OPEN]Book of Da'nial(QUESTIONS)[OPEN]

[stone]

Is it believed that the book of Da'niel is entirely written by Da'niel?

[visionary]

It is also believed that what Daniel was shown but not explained except that it was a closed book was an opened book in Revelation

[stone]

I've found information that reads :

I'll just sum it up, says that 2:46 through 7:28 was written in aramaic and the rest in Hebrew.

[Henaynei]

LOL - I just watched a "documentary" on the history channel that said that Daniel wrote the Book of Daniel at the time of the Maccabees - OIY - I wish these guys would actually read the bible before trying to teach about it!

[stone]

I'll 1st compare what i found in the kjv and then compare it to what i found in the Complete Jewish Version.

kjv:

Da 4:1Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

cjv:

Da 4:1[The following letter was sent out:] "From: N'vukhadnetzar the king "To: All the peoples, nations and languages living throughout the earth: "Shalom rav! [Abundant peace!]

***

Now let's take a look at the very last verse in chapter 4 in the book of Da'niel.


kjv:

Da 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

cjv:

Da 4:37So now I, N'vukhadnetzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven: "'For all his works are truth, and his ways are just; and he can humble those who walk in pride."'

****

The cjv just makes so much more sense to me. "definately gotta get me a copy of one"

This is what threw me off:

"I Nebuchadnezzar" is found over and over again throughout chapter 4. Chapter 4 is also within what is believed to be part of what is written in Aramaic. The fog cleared when i read this in the cjv, it comes right out and says that this is a letter written by someone else.

SO-

chapter 4 in the book of Daniel is most definately not written by Da'nial.

***research continues***

[shmuel]

kjv:

Da 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

cjv:

Da 4:37So now I, N'vukhadnetzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven: "'For all his works are truth, and his ways are just; and he can humble those who walk in pride."'

****

The cjv just makes so much more sense to me. "definately gotta get me a copy of one"

This is what threw me off:

"I Nebuchadnezzar" is found over and over again throughout chapter 4. Chapter 4 is also within what is believed to be part of what is written in Aramaic. The fog cleared when i read this in the cjv, it comes right out and says that this is a letter written by someone else.

I frankly see little difference between the two: a different transliteration for the name of the king, exalt vs extol, American vs British spelling of honor, use of quotation marks, etc.

If you are implying all of the Aramaic portion of Daniel was written by Nebuchadnezzar, you are misunderstanding. You are correct that chapter 4 records a letter written by Nebuchadnezzar; however, the portions witten in Aramaic are not limited to events concerning Nebuchadnezzar or even the Babylonian empire, but extent to the Persians as well. Neither are the events in the book in chronological order.

[stone]

I frankly see little difference between the two: a different transliteration for the name of the king, exalt vs extol, American vs British spelling of honor, use of quotation marks, etc..

Actually, there is a big difference that i see, one is that the names are spelled out in the Hebrew rather than the English translations, which will help me later down the road while studying the Hebrew language and trying to keep things in perspective. Also i find that the cjv is more user friendly, from my eyes, for novice users as myself. The kjv does not tell us straight out that chapter 4 is a letter from the King Nebu... *however you spell that* I'm sure i could find other comparisons that put the cjv over the kjv, at least through my eyes, so yes, it is my opinion.

If you are implying all of the Aramaic portion of Daniel was written by Nebuchadnezzar, you are misunderstanding. .

never implied that, and chapter 4 i'm sure was not written by the king, but dictated.. correct?



You are correct that chapter 4 records a letter written by Nebuchadnezzar; however, the portions witten in Aramaic are not limited to events concerning Nebuchadnezzar or even the Babylonian empire, but extent to the Persians as well. Neither are the events in the book in chronological order.

Thanks for the chronological order tip, i'll keep that in mind. Will you share what it is in the book that is not?

I believe that when this book we have now, call the book of Daniel was put together that there must have been portions of it. Parts of it lost for some reason from one location, and the parts were gathered from various locations and then put together into one.

Now, what i'm thinking about chapter 4 is that, since it is within the pages of our bibles, and was written by a man, rather dictated, isn't it only a letter from a man, and not a story from a great prophet? I still have not completed the book, so i'm not sure if the story that is told in the letter is mentioned else where or not? It leads me to believe that there is a great chance that there are parts of the book of Daniel missing.

Anyrate, what i said that i saw, that i have not been able to find else where has something to do with the Jewish poeple as a whole... sorta.. heh.. but it's good. I'm just curious why i'm not finding this story elsewhere. To tell you the truth i didn't know about everything i'm asking about in this thread till i started to put my explanation together to explain what i saw and i how i see it.

This is very interesting to me and is becomeing a larger and larger project as i dig into it. ;)

oh yea, i do appreciate your insight and experience, thank you. :cool:

[shmuel]

Actually, there is a big difference that i see, one is that the names are spelled out in the Hebrew rather than the English translations, which will help me later down the road while studying the Hebrew language and trying to keep things in perspective. Also i find that the cjv is more user friendly, from my eyes, for novice users as myself. The kjv does not tell us straight out that chapter 4 is a letter from the King Nebu... *however you spell that* I'm sure i could find other comparisons that put the cjv over the kjv, at least through my eyes, so yes, it is my opinion.

I read Hebrew and see no particular advantage to the transliteration in the CJB. I own two copies of the CJB. One I bought for myself as a reference, and the other was given to me. I rarely use them. If you want a modern translation instead of the KJV, I would recommend the NASB. I would prefer a translation done by a committee of scholars rather than one done by a single individual. That's not meant to be a criticism of the CJB, but just an observation of the way scholarship works. Peer review is very desireable.

Now, IIRC the Tanakh portion of the CJB is just an updated paraphrase of the 1917 JPS (not an original translation from the Hebrew), which itself followed the KJV except in those places were it would have gone against Jewish traditional understanding. So you are saying something like you prefer a copy of a copy of the KJV to the KJV itself. It may surprise you to know that probably the bigger audience for the CJB is gentiles into Hebrew roots rather than Messianic Jews.

BTW, I thought you were learning Hebrew. Didn't you start several months ago?

[shmuel]

I wish these guys would actually read the bible before trying to teach about it!

They have read the Bible. They just don't believe in predictive prophesy. How could someone writing in the 6th century BCE get all those details right about the Greeks and Romans, especially the details about the conflict between the Selucids and Ptolemies? Therefore, it must have written in the 2nd century BCE after the fact.

[stone]

BTW, I thought you were learning Hebrew. Didn't you start several months ago?

I started but haven't been able to get very far into it. It's difficult to make the time. i have 2 kids, a wife that requires alot of attention, plus i have a full time job, and some other projects going on after work. I'm helping to rebuild a house that was collapseing, all volunteer work and i've purchased much of the materials myself. Lately i've been dealing with secureing my vehicle, it was just broken into, some stuff stolen, my dash ripped up. All they had to do was take out 2 screws, but they ripped up my dash. Now i'm working to fence in my yard. Cant really afford to buy fenceing, but someone has offered me more than enough fence than i needed, for free, only catch is that i have to take it down from where it is at now. I've hauled a few rolls of it off already, got a few more to go. It turned out to be alot more work than i thought it would at 1st. My wife has been working part time in the evenings, so i babysit my kids. My 2 yr old will not leave me alone, he is always crawling on me, wanting to play and he is my 1st priority over anything else. My daughter likes to play cartoon games on the pc, so i let her, while she does homework i try to get on the pc, but my son doesn't let me. That should give an idea, of why i haven't had time.

i need a vacation. :help:

[debi b]

It may surprise you to know that probably the bigger audience for the CJB is gentiles into Hebrew roots rather than Messianic Jews.



Can you explain why you think this is important?

[Henaynei]

[size=2]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=#0000ff]They have read the Bible. They just don't believe in predictive prophesy. How could someone writing in the 6th century BCE get all those details right about the Greeks and Romans, especially the details about the conflict between the Selucids and Ptolemies? Therefore, it must have written in the 2nd century BCE after the fact. well, what they actually were trying to show and the foundation premise for their "investigation" was that
1) Daniel was NOT (indeed could not be, for "thinking individuals") about end times
2) therefore it HAD to be about times concurrent with Daniel AND
3) had to be about something that had already happened - and the closest they could match in "fulfillment" was Antiochus
4) and this also supplied them with the opportunity to "prove" how human and non-divine the passages were as they didn't match up, in significant ways

:scratch:

[shmuel]

Can you explain why you think this is important?

It's just an observation, Debi. If it is of no value to you, by all means ignore it.

There are no doubt indiviuals who see the title "Complete Jewish Bible" and come to the conclusion that it must be the Bible that all Messianic Jews carry, sort of like it is the "required textbook" for a course. It's not. Perhaps there's someone luring here that will find that fact interesting or useful.

I have been around long enough to be aware of people who are new to the Messianic movement that suddenly "discover" that "Christian" translations are bad. Thus, their preferred translation is either a tradition Jewish translation or else CJB. This preference seems not to come from specific examples where the "Christian" translation is a clearly faulty translation (I've asked for examples.), but rather from the perception that since it is Jewish it must be better. In fact, most persons making the claims don't know enough Hebrew to have a good discussion about the subject. These are my experiences. If yours are different, fine. Then you can ignore my views. Thank you.

[debi b]

I appreciate what you are saying. It could so very easily have meant something else (that is why I asked). Every translation has its strengths and weaknesses and it is important to know that.

[stone]

It's just an observation, Debi. If it is of no value to you, by all means ignore it.

There are no doubt indiviuals who see the title "Complete Jewish Bible" and come to the conclusion that it must be the Bible that all Messianic Jews carry, sort of like it is the "required textbook" for a course. It's not. Perhaps there's someone luring here that will find that fact interesting or useful.

I have been around long enough to be aware of people who are new to the Messianic movement that suddenly "discover" that "Christian" translations are bad. Thus, their preferred translation is either a tradition Jewish translation or else CJB. This preference seems not to come from specific examples where the "Christian" translation is a clearly faulty translation (I've asked for examples.), but rather from the perception that since it is Jewish it must be better. In fact, most persons making the claims don't know enough Hebrew to have a good discussion about the subject. These are my experiences. If yours are different, fine. Then you can ignore my views. Thank you.


In the kjv it does not mention anywhere within the text that the beginning of chapter 4 is a letter written by the king Neb. So when one reads it, in its entirety, as i did, someone who is not as educated in such things as you are, will read it, thinking that this is a continuation of Daniel's writeings, when in fact it is not. That is a bit deceptive to the novice reader. I was actually putting some notes together when i noticed in the text of chapter 4 the words, "I Neb." :scratch: followed by a description that could only come from him and narrated as if from him and so i remember some advice i recived here from Wags and decided to make comparisons with other versions from crosswalk or something like that. Now, i did state that it is my opinion, and that i preffer the cjv over the kjv, and i do. This is only one example why and it is a good example and makes a good point.

Translation prefferences i imagine should be a title of its' own.

Can you tell me what is not in chronological order in Daniel?

[debi b]

Now, i did state that it is my opinion, and that i preffer the cjv over the kjv, and i do. This is only one example why and it is a good example and makes a good point.

Honestly don't sweat it :wave: It is good advice to become familiar with numerous texts. You know what this does produce, the exact questions you are asking. To answer those questions then will eventually convince you of the necessity to learn biblical languages :D

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is also believed that what Daniel was shown but not explained except that it was a closed book was an opened book in RevelationHi visionary. I am truly having a tough time translating Daniel chapt 11!!! I somehow feel that chapter is what is being presented in revelation, the only problem being, I can't see Jesus bringing the NC to Isrel and did you notice there may be 2 different Covenants in that Chapter? Thougths.

Daniel 11:22 and armed forces of the overwhelmer/flood, they shall be overwhelmed/overflowed before his face, and they shall be broken and morevoer a prince of a covenant. ?

Daniel 11:28 So then he will return to his own land, with great substance, with, his heart, set upon/against a covenant, holy one; yea he will act with effect, and return to his own land.



(Rotherham) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus["posses thou the Furnace"], King of Persia["pure/splended"], a thing, was revealed unto Daniel["God is my Judge"], whose name was called Belteshazzar["Lord of the straightened treasure"]; and True was the thing, even [concerned] a great Army/Host [#06635], and he understood the thing, and had understanding in the sight/appearance............ . 14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

Reve 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs--which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --

[shmuel]

In the kjv it does not mention anywhere within the text that the beginning of chapter 4 is a letter written by the king Neb. So when one reads it, in its entirety, as i did, someone who is not as educated in such things as you are, will read it, thinking that this is a continuation of Daniel's writeings, when in fact it is not. That is a bit deceptive to the novice reader.

Why is it deceptive? The words aren't in the Aramaic text. [The following letter was sent out:] is a "help" supplied by David Stern. You can find all sorts of helps included in different versions of the KJV. The interesting point is that such helps are often criticized as being biased, and there are thosed who would be quick to point out that the helps aren't inspired. What is a publisher to do?

We could also note that in the Aramaic, chapter 4 begins with what is 4:4 in Christian Bibles. The first 3 verses are part of chapter 3.

Can you tell me what is not in chronological order in Daniel?

Notice that chapter 6 begins during the reign of Darius, then chapter 7 jumps back to the first year of Belshazzar whom we met back in chapter 5.

[stone]

Why is it deceptive? The words aren't in the Aramaic text. [The following letter was sent out:] is a "help" supplied by David Stern. You can find all sorts of helps included in different versions of the KJV. The interesting point is that such helps are often criticized as being biased, and there are thosed who would be quick to point out that the helps aren't inspired. What is a publisher to do?.

My bible at home is a kjv book, it's the same one i've had for about 20 years now. In the front of the bible there are short explanations of each book, and not even in it, does it read that chapter 4 is dictated by King Neb. That is the deception i speak of, although i'm sure most are conditioned to that kind of treatment over the last hundreds of years. I've discovered an attitude in history that hints common folk have no need for such knowledge.


We could also note that in the Aramaic, chapter 4 begins with what is 4:4 in Christian Bibles. The first 3 verses are part of chapter 3.



Notice that chapter 6 begins during the reign of Darius, then chapter 7 jumps back to the first year of Belshazzar whom we met back in chapter 5.

Thank you very much. :cool:

[Tishri1]

It's just an observation, Debi. If it is of no value to you, by all means ignore it.

There are no doubt indiviuals who see the title "Complete Jewish Bible" and come to the conclusion that it must be the Bible that all Messianic Jews carry, sort of like it is the "required textbook" for a course. It's not. Perhaps there's someone luring here that will find that fact interesting or useful.

I have been around long enough to be aware of people who are new to the Messianic movement that suddenly "discover" that "Christian" translations are bad. Thus, their preferred translation is either a tradition Jewish translation or else CJB. This preference seems not to come from specific examples where the "Christian" translation is a clearly faulty translation (I've asked for examples.), but rather from the perception that since it is Jewish it must be better. In fact, most persons making the claims don't know enough Hebrew to have a good discussion about the subject. These are my experiences. If yours are different, fine. Then you can ignore my views. Thank you.When I was a new Messianic the CJB was my best friend! I tore thru 2 copies myself.....Now that I understand Hebraic Thinking better, the Christian Bibles are benificial to me again, because I can teach better from them to my Christian friends explaining what I already know to them.....still I agree that knowing how to read the Hebrew text is by far the best way to learn....:wave:

[shmuel]

My bible at home is a kjv book, it's the same one i've had for about 20 years now. In the front of the bible there are short explanations of each book, and not even in it, does it read that chapter 4 is dictated by King Neb. That is the deception i speak of, although i'm sure most are conditioned to that kind of treatment over the last hundreds of years. I've discovered an attitude in history that hints common folk have no need for such knowledge.

I continue to be amazed that you think it's a deception. It's not in the text. It is the editor's opinion. In this case, I feel that it is a correct statement. But what about other cases? When does the editor go too far? And what does the fact that your KJV doesn't have it prove? Other copies of the KJV do. The original KJV had many notes that are not included in modern printings of the KJV. It is one thing to say that you prefer CJB. It is quite another to say that the KJV is deceptive for not adding to the text. I am at a loss as to what to say, because your view just seems so contrary to reason. Perhaps you could talk it over with your congregational leader.

[Tishri1]

Hi visionary. I am truly having a tough time translating Daniel chapt 11!!! I somehow feel that chapter is what is being presented in revelation, the only problem being, I can't see Jesus bringing the NC to Isrel and did you notice there may be 2 different Covenants in that Chapter? Thougths.

Daniel 11:22 and armed forces of the overwhelmer/flood, they shall be overwhelmed/overflowed before his face, and they shall be broken and morevoer a prince of a covenant. ?

Daniel 11:28 So then he will return to his own land, with great substance, with, his heart, set upon/against a covenant, holy one; yea he will act with effect, and return to his own land.



(Rotherham) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus["posses thou the Furnace"], King of Persia["pure/splended"], a thing, was revealed unto Daniel["God is my Judge"], whose name was called Belteshazzar["Lord of the straightened treasure"]; and True was the thing, even [concerned] a great Army/Host [#06635], and he understood the thing, and had understanding in the sight/appearance............ . 14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

Reve 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs--which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; -- Can I offer a web sight that has extensive teaching on Daniel and all the "End Times" prophets (and Revelations)?
http://www.hatikva.org/
You can call them personally with any questions and they will send you what you need..... I have learned more about the End Times, from the Hebraic/Jewish perspective; from these guys, then anyone else!

[Tishri1]

This is a clue to understanding Daniel and the End times...The Festivals, The Appointed Times, were for the past, are for us today, and will decide the events of the future.....This is the key missing ingredient in Christian Eschatology.Daniel 8:19 19 And he said, "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:27 27 "As for both kings, their hearts will be intent on evil, and they will speak lies to each other at the same table; but it will not succeed, for the end is still to come at the appointed time.
Daniel 11:29 29 "At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.
Daniel 11:35 35 "And some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge, and make them pure, until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.

[stone]

I continue to be amazed that you think it's a deception. It's not in the text. It is the editor's opinion..

..and that opinion is what can make the self-instruction for those that do not wish to become part of some church that preaches contradictions to what you are reading in your bible more informative than the opinion of one who has gone through years of some kind of bible teaching school.

The opinions of those for example that wrote the king james version, are not takeing an audience with those at home that are picking up their bibles for the 1st time in years and really want to learn something about the word and find themselves reading something written by King Neb. and thinking that it was written by Daniel.

They are takeing writeings that were kept in Synagogues and taught by Rabbi's, printing them in mass quantities and selling them to the public for a profit.

Once a school has you as a pupil, now that school will teach its doctrines to the student how they interpret the text. A different doctrine will be taught from a group that reads the text according to what they want to believe or according to what their fathers told them. Never understanding the true meanings of most of what they are saying, because they have no Torah.

For those of us that have never desired to seek a career from a bible college and are repelled when hearing the contradictions spoken in the church are left with what is written in these bibles purchased from the shelves of the book stores.




In this case, I feel that it is a correct statement. But what about other cases? .


I have no idea about other cases. I only am speaking of this one that i can see clearly right now.


When does the editor go too far?


I don't know, but i'll let you guys know if i see something that has gone too far. In the beginning of my kjv bible, there is a small little note added in the book that reads something like, "man was not evolved, they were created by g-d." I agree with that. If they can add that, then why not add, that chapter 4 in Daniel was not written by Daniel, and the book is not in historically correct chronological order?


And what does the fact that your KJV doesn't have it prove? .


That there are many that do not have accurate conceptions of what is the truth.




Other copies of the KJV do. The original KJV had many notes that are not included in modern printings of the KJV.


I'm glad mine didn't, i'm enjoying this discussion.



It is one thing to say that you prefer CJB. It is quite another to say that the KJV is deceptive for not adding to the text..

Let's say i finished it, without questioning it. Later down the road, let's say i get into a debate with someone about the contents of Daniel chapter 4, and i quote from it out of context, and it's proven to me that i am quoteing information inaccurately because the text was dictated by King Neb. and not written by Da'nial. Was i deceived or is it just my fault for not being educated by a 3rd party?



I am at a loss as to what to say, because your view just seems so contrary to reason.


Do you understand the concept of an opinion? If i had a cjv book at home i suppose i would study from it more, as it has gained favor with me over the kjv, for such reasons as i have repeatedly explained. I will never discard my kjv, not becasue of the sedimental value, and no my dad is not dead, it's just the best thing he's probably ever done for me is all, I will always use it for researching.



Perhaps you could talk it over with your congregational leader.


What would you suggest that i ask?


Now, with that said, and i was going to avoid this comment but i can't seem to ignore it after this. Earlier you mentioned that it took teams of deeply educated scholars years to piece together this masterpiece called the kj bible and one jewish guy put together the cjv.

Now i will tell you how i saw what you said through my eyes. One jew completed what it took a team of scholars years to do. At this moment in time, the cjv outshines the kjv through my eyes. Maybe it was two or more? I don't know, but i think you got my point.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi visionary. I am truly having a tough time translating Daniel chapt 11!!! I somehow feel that chapter is what is being presented in revelation, the only problem being, I can't see Jesus bringing the NC to Isrel and did you notice there may be 2 different Covenants in that Chapter? Thougths.

Daniel 11:22 and armed forces of the overwhelmer/flood, they shall be overwhelmed/overflowed before his face, and they shall be broken and morevoer a prince of a covenant. ?

Daniel 11:28 So then he will return to his own land, with great substance, with, his heart, set upon/against a covenant, holy one; yea he will act with effect, and return to his own land.



(Rotherham) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus["posses thou the Furnace"], King of Persia["pure/splended"], a thing, was revealed unto Daniel["God is my Judge"], whose name was called Belteshazzar["Lord of the straightened treasure"]; and True was the thing, even [concerned] a great Army/Host [#06635], and he understood the thing, and had understanding in the sight/appearance............ . 14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

Reve 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs--which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --Can I offer a web sight that has extensive teaching on Daniel and all the "End Times" prophets (and Revelations)?
http://www.hatikva.org/
You can call them personally with any questions and they will send you what you need..... I have learned more about the End Times, from the Hebraic/Jewish perspective; from these guys, then anyone else!But have you or any others possibly viewed Jesus bringing the NC or the event of Pentecost in chapter 11?. I believe it is the Olivet Discourse and revelation, but I am still translating it.
Thanks for the info though. :wave:

[Tishri1]

I'm not sure what you mean as there are several covenants mentioned in Daniel(probably in Rev as well)Daniel 9:4-5 4 And I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed and said, "Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly, and rebelled, even turning aside from Thy commandments and ordinances.
Daniel 11:22 22 "And the overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 11:28 28 "Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and then return to his own land.
Daniel 11:30 30 "For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened, and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
Daniel 9:27 - 10:1 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Daniel 11:32 32 "And by smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action.
Most of these (except of course the first verse) refer to Antiocus as the shadow of the future False Messiah... He will of course break every covenant he makes with the people of Israel but ABBA will never break His covenant with us...