Definition of the term "Messianic"

[Wags]

I've seen several posts recently by those bearing the messianic icon that say that they "aren't called to observe Torah" and that got me to thinking..... (scary thing I know ;))


What does the descriptive term "Messianic" mean to you?
When someone says they are a "Messianic Believer" what do you expect their beliefs/practice to be? Personally I am having a hard time figuring out why someone would call themselves "Messianic" and not want to observe Torah (okay to be honest I have a hard time figuring out why any follower of Yeshua would not want to follow Torah but thats a whole other topic.). To me, Torah observance is what differentiates Messianic believers from other types of believers.

[visionary]

I agree... The whole thrust of Judaism is Torah and the whole thrust of Messianic is Yeshua... which are together to state that they should be... and the followers who call themselves Mesianic Judiasm are believers in Yeshua and Torah... and not salvation without the law.

[P_G]

I think the primary thing that MAKES you Messianic is

1 A belief that Y'shua is Moshiach
2 A desire and leading to be Torah observant


This does not mean you are perfectly Torah observant nor that we are all at the same place in our walk. For surely we are not. Even the council of Jerusalem realized that Goim had a long walk to get from where they were to where they were headed. But to say that you are not led to be Torah observant I think honestly precludes you from being Messianic.

Not following Torah perfectly does not preclude one from being messianic.


PG

[Wags]

I agree with both of you (visionary & PG) and that brings up another question.

If a person bears the messianic icon, but says torah observance isn't part of their beliefs - then do they need to have an icon change? If non-tritarian messianics are excluded from posting here due to their beliefs, then shouldn't a person who isn't interested in Torah observance be asked to change symbols as well?

[stone]

I agree with both of you (visionary & PG) and that brings up another question.

If a person bears the messianic icon, but says torah observance isn't part of their beliefs - then do they need to have an icon change? If non-tritarian messianics are excluded from posting here due to their beliefs, then shouldn't a person who isn't interested in Torah observance be asked to change symbols as well?

I think so, and i agree with all of you above. The reason i chose messianic is because i know that torah is very important to father and is missing from all the other faiths.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think so, and i agree with all of you above. The reason i chose messianic is because i know that torah is very important to father and is missing from all the other faiths.And also the New Torah of Christ. :thumbsup:

Galatians 6:2 of one another the burdens bear ye, and so fill up the law of the Christ,

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a New Covenant,

[Torah]

So! LittleLambofJesus does this “New Torah of Christ” Change the Dietary law.? Does it change the Sabbath?. How about the feast days? :confused:

[LittleLambofJesus]

So! LittleLambofJesus does this “New Torah of Christ” Change the Dietary law.? Does it change the Sabbath?. How about the feast days? :confused: I am not messianic and just want to hear views as I cannot "debate" on this board. Sorry.

edit to add:

(Young) Isaiah 43:19 Lo, I am doing a New Thing, now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a Way, In a desolate place--floods.

[Wags]

Please keep this on-topic! And since I'm the OP I'm going to request that only those with a messianic icon respond to the questions I asked.

[visionary]

I think the confusion between a covenant and the law is being made....

Let's make that part simple.... Covenant is when you cut your finger and mix the blood with your brother to make a covenant with each other to be blood brothers... you do remember doing that as a child or know of some fellows that did so to be in the club.

The law were the rules that you lived by... you do not need a covenant to know that they were good and worth obeying

Now that the new covenant has been offered by Yeshua, we do not have to circumcised, other than our hearts, we do not have to shed blood, since he shed His for us, we do not have to have a temple, since we are the temple now.

[Wags]

Now that the new covenant has been offered by Yeshua, we do not have to circumcised, other than our hearts, we do not have to shed blood, since he shed His for us, we do not have to have a temple, since we are the temple now.

Guess this just isn't going to stay on topic....

Circumcision is a Torah command .... if it has been set aside then all of Torah has been set aside. One does not need to be circumcised before they are saved - but after .... well its a command in Torah.

[Elisheva413]

Guess this just isn't going to stay on topic....

Circumcision is a Torah command .... if it has been set aside then all of Torah has been set aside. One does not need to be circumcised before they are saved - but after .... well its a command in Torah.


I agree completely with you and so glad you stated it. (and glad I am a girl :D )

Now as to your original question, I would have to say that in my opinion, if you use the term "Messianic", then you are a believer in Messiah Yeshua and also walking in Torah (or at least learning and trying :) ) As for me, I have also seen how this term can mean so many things. But how else do you quickly and efficiently identify yourself? It would take a mini pamphlet to get across who I am and what I believe in! Because even within Messianics, there are many ways to walk this out, Talmud, no Talmud, Rabbincal calendar, New Moon calendar (and then what moon do you observe, crescent or no moon) etc etc etc. :doh: Won't it be an eye opener when Yeshua returns and sets us all straight! But in the end, I agree, if you have a Messianic icon and don't observe...well, I think you need a different icon. Unless you want to start a new branch, maybe Reform Messianism? But then I still vote for a different icon.^_^
TTFN!

[talmidim]

Guess this just isn't going to stay on topic....

Circumcision is a Torah command .... if it has been set aside then all of Torah has been set aside. One does not need to be circumcised before they are saved - but after .... well its a command in Torah.Shalom Wags,

I have agreed with your posts to this point. The change in the covenant and the change in the nature of the circumcision was foretold. BTW, this is very much on topic. There are mitzvahs for various people that can be ignored by others. These persons are still Torah observant. Some mitzvahs for Levitical priests don't necessarily apply to women at childbirth, etc.

Fortunately, the need for a physical circumcision is past. This mitzvah has been fulfilled at the coming of the Redeemer. Scripture is clear that circumcision is NOT necessary for salvation but Torah IS. (I am working on a related study that confirms this emphatically. In that it is not completely edited yet, I hope you will at least consider my position without the usual hundred plus scripture references.)

Concerning Torah observance as a necessary part of "Messianic" doctrine, I agree. The only part that bothers me is when "Messianic" starts to sound like a denomination rather than a doctrine. That dogma don't hunt. Gentiles came out of Egypt with the Hebrews. All of the seventy families of Noah were represented. I feel certain that strangers have always been included in Torah - except the nephilim of course...

(I hope that's not too far off topic for you. ;) )

(ps. Did you know that when typing in the wee hours that mitzvah is sometimes spelled mikvah? So how do you spell mulligan in Hebrew? :D )

[Achichem]

Well,

I actually don't think I'd mind if someone was called messianic and claimed to not be Torah observant, if they meant that in a certain way.

For example, I consider myself Noahide, and though I would never say i was not Torah observant, I think I could if I really wanted to. I don't seek to follow all that is outlined in the Torah(of course no one really does) as if I were a Jew, I only seek to follow my gentile station of the Torah(of course we all do, hence I do consider myself Torah observant)[I understand not everyone comfortable with making a distinction], of course I'm keeping G-d holy feast and mainly "Jewish" traditions. So...hmmm

All I'm saying is if a a person is saying their not Torah observant and keeping mainly a traditional christian calender without G-ds holy feasts, and completely disregarding "Jewish" custom, then I'd truly wonder why they had the icon[called themselves messianic]. But if they are just saying that and actively participating in messianic type actives as Noahide, then I'm happy to see them as a fellow messianic.

Peace,

PS: By "Jewish" traditions[customs] I mainly mean G-d's Laws for Israel

[P_G]

I do want to let you all know that I am keeping a close read on this thread as I am VERY interested in what the Messianic community has to say about this issue.

I also want to let you know that your thoughtful and wise words may well mold my opinions here and perhaps other staff as well. I do feel that boards like this one help to define who and what we are as a community.

PG

[HaNotsri]

I have to agree with DaTsar in this situation. I consider myself to be a Hebrew-roots Christian. I am Messianic in nature, but I don't believe that the yoke of the Torah is incumbent on me as per Acts 15. That doesn't mean I don't strive to apply Torah-principles to my life, it just means that some things were meant for the people of Israel and not for me. That doesn't mean we aren't all one body, it just means we have different obligations and roles just as men and women are equal yet have different roles in life.

[Wags]

Sorry I was a bit "cranky" yesterday. ;) And I even went and derailed my own thread... Oy! :doh:


I disagree that "noahide" is the same or that "keeping the moral aspects" are the same. Christians as a whole keep at least some of the moral aspects, and they keep more of Torah than than realize, but they aren't Messianic.

There is a lot of wiggle room in defining Messianics as "a person who accepts Yeshua as Messiah and embraces Torah living. " That would include non-tritarians, and those that include or discard Talmud, those that keep biblical kosher or those that keep orthodox kosher, etc.... Lots of differences - but one unifying belief that Yeshua is Messiah and that Torah is our guide to living a life pleasing to the One who has redeemed us.

[Achichem]

"keeping the moral aspects" are the same
Well I'm with you on this, Torah is after all a prescription and instruction toward "being holy even as G-d is holy"; so to just take moral aspects and not keep practise would void the whole point of Torah.

Of course it all a matter of semantics[using Messianic], since salvation and G-d blessings comes by grace (keeping the spirit of Torah) alone and since not everyone can be expected to realize the role of Torah. Can we rightly expect all to hold to Torah in it instructive role, if they can not see the instruction in it? I say surely not! :)
Christians as a whole keep at least some of the moral aspects, and they keep more of Torah than than realize, but they aren't Messianic.
To be clear the above is just agreeing with this :)

I disagree that "noahide" is the same
Well to what point do you see it as different? A nohide simply means you are not bond to keep the 613 mitzvot(or however you wish to define it ) of the Israeli Torah(covenant).

but, If your a noahide keeping your 7(or however you wish to define it) within the community of the 613, meaning you keep most of the 613 not out of "expectation" but respect, joyfullness, tradition and convention. The term "Christan" doesn't really lead it self well right? "Christian" of course being Noahide but not within the community of the 613.

there is a lot of wiggle room in defining Messianics as "a person who accepts Yeshua as Messiah and embraces Torah living. " That would include non-tritarians, and those that include or discard Talmud, those that keep biblical kosher or those that keep orthodox kosher, etc.... Lots of differences - but one unifying belief that Yeshua is Messiah and that Torah is our guide to living a life pleasing to the One who has redeemed us.
:amen:

[Wags]

The so-called noahide laws are something rabbis came up with - not something specifically found in scritpure.

And my purpose in this thread was to discuss what the definition of messianic was here. (There used to be a definition posted in the FAQ's but I can't seem to find it ...) It was not meant as a discussion of the meirts of Torah observance.

If someone chooses not to observe Torah that is their choice - but if they do so, should they really be sporting a scroll or should they be using a different icon to identify themselves?

If a person doesn't believe that Torah observance is a reuqirement in this age - then why would they want to label themselves as a Messianic instead of a Christian? Wouldn't the term "Christian" be more accurate/honest for those that don't believe in Torah observance?

[talmidim]

*snip*
That would include non-tritarians, and those that include or discard Talmud, those that keep biblical kosher or those that keep orthodox kosher, etc....
*snip*
While I don't pretend to understand the nature of Diety, I have some definite opinions about "traditions" that add to or take away from scripture. I have read enough Talmud to know that it openly contradicts the Word. And I am familiar with the Masters teachings concerning fence laws that make His yoke hard and His burden heavy. I would have to think long and hard to determine if these doctrines really affect the status of a Messianic believer.

Subscribing to the Hebrew language, history and culture in order to understand scripture is a long way from practicing traditions contrary to scripture in order to appear more "Jewish". At the least, I would have to say that those that subscribe to the traditions that contradict what the Master taught are in need of prayer. And speaking of least, those that teach these said traditions, I believe, will be least in the kingdom of Heaven.

[visionary]

That scroll is an icon especially chosen for those who want to keep the very essence of Torah in their heart, by living as much Torah as they can apply to their life, and they do all this in their honor of the King of Torah.

[BrEnDiNo99]

I've seen several posts recently by those bearing the messianic icon that say that they "aren't called to observe Torah" and that got me to thinking..... (scary thing I know ;))



What does the descriptive term "Messianic" mean to you?
When someone says they are a "Messianic Believer" what do you expect their beliefs/practice to be?Personally I am having a hard time figuring out why someone would call themselves "Messianic" and not want to observe Torah (okay to be honest I have a hard time figuring out why any follower of Yeshua would not want to follow Torah but thats a whole other topic.). To me, Torah observance is what differentiates Messianic believers from other types of believers.



this is very true. Many christians only base them selves upoun the new testament when it is very important to get the BIG picture. If the old testament was not important it would not be there. So I believe that everyone should observe pretty much all rules of the bible.

[Achichem]

f someone chooses not to observe Torah that is their choice - but if they do so, should they really be sporting a scroll or should they be using a different icon to identify themselves?

If a person doesn't believe that Torah observance is a reuqirement in this age - then why would they want to label themselves as a Messianic instead of a Christian? Wouldn't the term "Christian" be more accurate/honest for those that don't believe in Torah observance?
Please pardon me,I was going off topic....

I was just trying to justify my position that in some cases I think its the community one holds instead of ones personal beliefs in Torah observance that makes wearing the scroll more appropriate then other icons. Of course, with Torah observance making it be a given regardless of ones community[as others have expressed] :)

Peace,

[Torah]

Who are we? We are a mixture of Jew and Alien’s who through the death and resurrection of Yeshua our Messiah have been grafted into the common wealth of Israel {Romans 11:24-26) we are one people, Jew and Gentiles one in Messiah. And we believe that the same law and regulations apply both to Jew and to the alien. {Numbers 15:16)
We are a new group of people world wide who the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob has raised up from the earth in this last day to proclaim that G-d is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And we proclaim this in our lifestyle that G-d has called all his peoples too. We are not liked by our Jewish brothers because they see us a Christians who for the past 2000 years have not tried to make Israel envious.{Romans 11:11) And we are not liked by our Christian brothers because we are accused of trying to earn our salvation by keeping the Torah{teaching) {2 Timothy 3:15-17)

The 3 main Torah teachings that seam to keep coming up in this forum are as followed.

1) “Food”
2) “Holydays”
3) “Law”

It is my option to display the Messianic icon one must agree that,
1} I eat biblically kosher.{or am willing to learn){Acts 15:21)
2} I celebrate G-ds Holydays spoken of in Torah. {Lev 23:1-44)
3} that Torah{teaching) is the guide that Yeshua pointed us to for living a G-dley lifestyle. {Gen 1 to Deut 34: 12)


I agree with these post .


Definition of the term "Messianic"



I've seen several posts recently by those bearing the messianic icon that say that they "aren't called to observe Torah" and that got me to thinking..... (scary thing I know )

What does the descriptive term "Messianic" mean to you?
When someone says they are a "Messianic Believer" what do you expect their beliefs/practice to be?Personally I am having a hard time figuring out why someone would call themselves "Messianic" and not want to observe Torah (okay to be honest I have a hard time figuring out why any follower of Yeshua would not want to follow Torah but thats a whole other topic.). To me, Torah observance is what differentiates Messianic believers from other types of believers.


The so-called noahide laws are something rabbis came up with - not something specifically found in scritpure.

And my purpose in this thread was to discuss what the definition of messianic was here. (There used to be a definition posted in the FAQ's but I can't seem to find it ...) It was not meant as a discussion of the meirts of Torah observance.

If someone chooses not to observe Torah that is their choice - but if they do so, should they really be sporting a scroll or should they be using a different icon to identify themselves?

If a person doesn't believe that Torah observance is a reuqirement in this age - then why would they want to label themselves as a Messianic instead of a Christian? Wouldn't the term "Christian" be more accurate/honest for those that don't believe in Torah observance?

I agree with both of you (visionary & PG) and that brings up another question.

If a person bears the messianic icon, but says torah observance isn't part of their beliefs - then do they need to have an icon change? If non-tritarian messianics are excluded from posting here due to their beliefs, then shouldn't a person who isn't interested in Torah observance be asked to change symbols as well?

Please keep this on-topic! And since I'm the OP I'm going to request that only those with a messianic icon respond to the questions I asked.


visionary

I agree... The whole thrust of Judaism is Torah and the whole thrust of Messianic is Yeshua... which are together to state that they should be... and the followers who call themselves Mesianic Judiasm are believers in Yeshua and Torah... and not salvation without the law.


stone
I think so, and i agree with all of you above. The reason i chose messianic is because i know that torah is very important to father and is missing from all the other faiths.


There are probable more but I just read these.
:wave: Shalom

[shmuel]

I would agree that anyone who calls himself "Messianic" or who follows the "Messianic faith" would be expected to be Torah observant. Wags is right to name the diversity in beliefs of such persons. In reality the diversity is much greater. It includes: Sacred Namers, persons holding to various forms of Anglo-Israelism (now frequently called "Two House"), and all sorts of non-Trinitarian positions including modalism, Arians, and even polytheists. It includes those who advocate polygomy and those who oppose all government. It includes the strongest Judeophiles and at the same time the most antisemitic white supremacists. The only thing these groups have in common is the claim to be Torah observant.

However, the name of this subforum is not "The Messianic Faith", but rather "Messianic Judaism" and Messianic Judaism has a basis in historical events.

Begining in the late 60's Jewish believers in Jesus began to feel contrained by the existing situation. They were member of the common protestant denominations such as the Presbyterian and Baptist. And they served in missions supported by these and other Christion mission boards. This set in motion the drive to establish self supporting congregations that were not affiliated with these organizations and thus would no longer be subject to their constraints. The members of these new congregations were thus free to determine what views to hold on the end times, what music was appropriate, whether to include Israeli folk dance in the service, whether to celebrate Pesach, or have a Kol Nidre service, or a Purim spiel, etc. They didn't have to get permission from the Baptists or Presbyterians or any mission board.

So historic Messianic Judaism is quite different in emphasis from most of what is seen on this subforum. Why not then change the name to "The Messianic Faith" and require torah observance for use of the scroll icon? And leave the use of the term "Messianic Judaism" to those who are in agreement with the positions of organizations such as MJAA, UMJC, and AMC.

[HaNotsri]

If a person doesn't believe that Torah observance is a reuqirement in this age - then why would they want to label themselves as a Messianic instead of a Christian? Wouldn't the term "Christian" be more accurate/honest for those that don't believe in Torah observance?

I don't think this is what people like DaTsar or myself are saying at all. Not in ONE of our posts will you see where either DaTsar or myself have stated that "Torah observance isn't a requirement in this age." What we have said is what has been historically going on since matan Torah.

We're not saying that the Torah is gone. But we recognize the idea that the Torah in all its precepts, ceremonies, and laws was given specifically to Israel and it is bound (even today...whether a Jewish believer or Jewish non-believer) specifically upon Israel. Paul and the apostles agreed with the principle that it is not incumbent upon gentiles joining into the faith that they need not take upon themselves the yoke of the Torah. That's what the council in Acts 15 was about...that's what Galatians was about. That's not to say a gentile can't take on the yoke of the Torah if he wishes.

(MORE LATER)

[talmidim]

We're not saying that the Torah is gone. But we recognize the idea that the Torah in all its precepts, ceremonies, and laws was given specifically to Israel and it is bound (even today...whether a Jewish believer or Jewish non-believer) specifically upon Israel. Sooooo... "Thou shalt not kill", is for Israelites only? I don't get it. Torah is still in effect - it just doesn't apply to us?

[jgonz]

Now as to your original question, I would have to say that in my opinion, if you use the term "Messianic", then you are a believer in Messiah Yeshua and also walking in Torah (or at least learning and trying :) ) As for me, I have also seen how this term can mean so many things. But how else do you quickly and efficiently identify yourself? It would take a mini pamphlet to get across who I am and what I believe in! Because even within Messianics, there are many ways to walk this out, Talmud, no Talmud, Rabbincal calendar, New Moon calendar (and then what moon do you observe, crescent or no moon) etc etc etc. :doh: Won't it be an eye opener when Yeshua returns and sets us all straight! But in the end, I agree, if you have a Messianic icon and don't observe...well, I think you need a different icon. Unless you want to start a new branch, maybe Reform Messianism? But then I still vote for a different icon.^_^

It is my option to display the Messianic icon one must agree that,
1} I eat biblically kosher.{or am willing to learn){Acts 15:21)
2} I celebrate G-ds Holydays spoken of in Torah. {Lev 23:1-44)
3} that Torah{teaching) is the guide that Yeshua pointed us to for living a G-dley lifestyle. {Gen 1 to Deut 34: 12)

I agree with these posts. :)

[HaNotsri]

Sooooo... "Thou shalt not kill", is for Israelites only? I don't get it. Torah is still in effect - it just doesn't apply to us?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The moral/ethical law is for all people...that's why the apostles set down those four or so principles that the gentiles should live by...that's why Paul reiterated over and over when he went to the gentiles the moral and ethical principles. But Paul didn't say "you should go to the Temple and do this...you should keep kosher...you should circumcise your children...etc etc etc" That's part of the reason why Paul had to make amends in Jerusalem and bring and offering in the Temple. He was accused teaching against the Torah to Jewish believers (which wasn't true) that lived among the gentiles (Galatia, Phillipi, Corinth, etc). Which I suppose if you read the book of Galatians you could get that feeling. But it wasn't true. Paul remained a Pharisee his entire life. He kept the Torah among Jews and gentiles, but he spoke one way to the Jews and one way to the gentiles so that they may understand their roles and EACH other in the body of Christ.

[HaNotsri]

By the way, if anyone here has that much of a problem with my biblical exegesis AND it bothers them so much that I display the "Messianic" icon just tell me and I will remove it. It will have been nice conversing with you all

Kol tuv,

Michael

[Tishri1]

I think the primary thing that MAKES you Messianic is

1 A belief that Y'shua is Moshiach
2 A desire and leading to be Torah observant


This does not mean you are perfectly Torah observant nor that we are all at the same place in our walk. For surely we are not. Even the council of Jerusalem realized that Goim had a long walk to get from where they were to where they were headed. But to say that you are not led to be Torah observant I think honestly precludes you from being Messianic.

Not following Torah perfectly does not preclude one from being messianic.


PGYou must spread some Reputation around before giving it to P_G again.:clap:

[Tishri1]

I agree with both of you (visionary & PG) and that brings up another question.

If a person bears the messianic icon, but says torah observance isn't part of their beliefs - then do they need to have an icon change? If non-tritarian messianics are excluded from posting here due to their beliefs, then shouldn't a person who isn't interested in Torah observance be asked to change symbols as well?I have a question ....who here said they weren't interested in Torah? I'm thinking back to the posts I've read (although I have been gone a while) and cant remember anyone saying that:scratch:

[Tishri1]

And also the New Torah of Christ. :thumbsup:

Galatians 6:2 of one another the burdens bear ye, and so fill up the law of the Christ,

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a New Covenant, Maybe this is the difference:scratch:, Messianic Judiasm ascribes in faith to one Torah only... that Torah is now written on the Heart....And aside from that the only thing new is the New Covenant which does suspend (or change if you prefer that word) the Torah in areas but not a complete overhaul of it...not yet anyway;)

[Tishri1]

Guess this just isn't going to stay on topic....

Circumcision is a Torah command .... if it has been set aside then all of Torah has been set aside. One does not need to be circumcised before they are saved - but after .... well its a command in Torah. I agree completely with you and so glad you stated it. (and glad I am a girl )

Now as to your original question, I would have to say that in my opinion, if you use the term "Messianic", then you are a believer in Messiah Yeshua and also walking in Torah (or at least learning and trying ) As for me, I have also seen how this term can mean so many things. But how else do you quickly and efficiently identify yourself? It would take a mini pamphlet to get across who I am and what I believe in! Because even within Messianics, there are many ways to walk this out, Talmud, no Talmud, Rabbincal calendar, New Moon calendar (and then what moon do you observe, crescent or no moon) etc etc etc. Won't it be an eye opener when Yeshua returns and sets us all straight! But in the end, I agree, if you have a Messianic icon and don't observe...well, I think you need a different icon. Unless you want to start a new branch, maybe Reform Messianism? But then I still vote for a different icon.
TTFN!I believe that you have said this well and may just now have hit the nail on the head:clap:! The fact that the new Moon is a command then many people are NOT Torah observant if they choose a different calendar or different view of the moon just as they would be wrong(and NOT Torah Observant) if they choose not to circumcise...right? WRONG:doh:....See how crazy this thinking is....No one could ever be totally Torah Observant if that were the case:sigh:!

Yeshua has made the way open for us all to jump on board and walk this walk even with our human frailties, even with our different interpretations, even with our messups and failures, and with our periods of rebellion even!.....It is no longer a boot in the butt and out you go if you are not circumcised or if you are following a moon concealed, it is a matter of the heart (which is where the Torah is written)! We will all fail to completely understand ABBA's Torah but that does NOT make us less Messianic, and should NOT be the basis for removing the Icon....I think the Apostles were smart in providing a few rules for Table Fellowship, and then let the New Messianics learn as they came to that table....But even then there were soooooooo many sects of Judiasm that day, and no one had it all right....no oneWon't it be an eye opener when Yeshua returns and sets us all straight! AMEN:amen: Yes and he will have something to say to each one of us I'm sure...Yet we are all still Messianic regardless:groupray:

[Tishri1]

Shalom Wags,

I have agreed with your posts to this point. The change in the covenant and the change in the nature of the circumcision was foretold. BTW, this is very much on topic. There are mitzvahs for various people that can be ignored by others. These persons are still Torah observant. Some mitzvahs for Levitical priests don't necessarily apply to women at childbirth, etc.

Fortunately, the need for a physical circumcision is past. This mitzvah has been fulfilled at the coming of the Redeemer. Scripture is clear that circumcision is NOT necessary for salvation but Torah IS. (I am working on a related study that confirms this emphatically. In that it is not completely edited yet, I hope you will at least consider my position without the usual hundred plus scripture references.)

Concerning Torah observance as a necessary part of "Messianic" doctrine, I agree. The only part that bothers me is when "Messianic" starts to sound like a denomination rather than a doctrine. That dogma don't hunt. Gentiles came out of Egypt with the Hebrews. All of the seventy families of Noah were represented. I feel certain that strangers have always been included in Torah - except the nephilim of course...

(I hope that's not too far off topic for you. ;) )

(ps. Did you know that when typing in the wee hours that mitzvah is sometimes spelled mikvah? So how do you spell mulligan in Hebrew? :D )Amen Tal please start a thread for me when you get that edited...That one is on the Top of my Study List(So was Nephillim way back when too, and Paleo-Hebrew, way way back when hmmmmm:thumbsup:)
sorry Wag , I know off Topic:sorry:

[Tishri1]

By the way, if anyone here has that much of a problem with my biblical exegesis AND it bothers them so much that I display the "Messianic" icon just tell me and I will remove it. It will have been nice conversing with you all

Kol tuv,

MichaelDont remove it (I like having you here:hug:) and no one is the boss and has all the answers.

I bet everyone here agrees with me at least on this one point right?:wave:

[Tishri1]

By the way, if anyone here has that much of a problem with my biblical exegesis AND it bothers them so much that I display the "Messianic" icon just tell me and I will remove it. It will have been nice conversing with you all

Kol tuv,

MichaelSee where this kind of discussion leads family:sigh:

So is this what Yeshua died for? To separate us into so many factions, and lable us this way or that?...I don't think so and this makes me soooo sad:(

We should be inspiring people toward Torah submission, not threatening them.....

[Wags]

I said - "if a person" I did not name names, nor was it my intention to point out a paricular person or persons - I was asking a general question. Thats is why it wasn't addressed to a specific person.

I'm not interested in forcing anyone to stop posting here - I am just looking for that thing that makes us different from other believers. I personally believe that is Torah observance.

Now some here have taken my use of the term "Torah Observant" to mean that I expect people to keep Torah perfectly in order to sport the scroll icon. But reality is - I have never said, nor even implied that in this, or any other discussion.

In my opinion, there is a vast diffenece between someone who has a desire to observe and learn and one who says that following Torah is not important and/or spiritualizes it. (For clarification - this is not directed at any particular person or persons.)

[Tishri1]

I said - "if a person" I did not name names, nor was it my intention to point out a paricular person or persons - I was asking a general question. Thats is why it wasn't addressed to a specific person.

I'm not interested in forcing anyone to stop posting here - I am just looking for that thing that makes us different from other believers. I personally believe that is Torah observance.

Now some here have taken my use of the term "Torah Observant" to mean that I expect people to keep Torah perfectly in order to sport the scroll icon. But reality is - I have never said, nor even implied that in this, or any other discussion.

In my opinion, there is a vast diffenece between someone who has a desire to observe and learn and one who says that following Torah is not important and/or spiritualizes it. (For clarification - this is not directed at any particular person or persons.)I'm happy to hear that Wags for me it was this one that started making me wonder if you were...:scratch:Circumcision is a Torah command .... if it has been set aside then all of Torah has been set aside. One does not need to be circumcised before they are saved - but after .... well its a command in Torah. but I 'm glad that it was a misunderstanding:groupray: