The Brown Scapular

[Mysterium_Fidei]

The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, sometimes referred to as the "brown scapular" from the color of its bands. It is believed to have been originally given by the Blessed Mother to Saint Simon Stock when she appeared in England in 1251. The saint was apparently told by Mary that those who died "clothed in this habit [would] never suffer eternal fire". The brown scapular is also associated with the "Sabbatine Privilege", which states that Mary's motherly assistance for those who wear the scapular will continue after their death, especially on Saturdays - the day devoted to her honor.

I almost never take my scapular off. I think many people misunderstand it's use, but it's such a wonderful devotion I would encourage everyone to look into it. It's not a "high church", or "anglo-catholic" thing. It's a Christian devotion. It's a reminder to always and everywhere attempt to live a Christian life, in honor of Christ through his mother. I'm guessing not too many people here do wear it, but if so, please post your testimonies! :clap:

[PaladinValer]

I wear one as often as I can.

Although don't forget that, if for some reason it cannot be worn, if what it sygnifies is held tightly, it is always worn around your heart.

A wonderful sacramental.

[SeenAndUnseen]

I wear the brown scapular often, but not to sleep very much, or when I'm swimming or taking a bath. It is deeply comforting to me, knowing I am wearing it. Somehow it makes me feel more in tune with the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, and it helps me to be more prayerful. (Mine has a small crucifix attached, and a medal of Saint Benedict -- both of which make me feel safe and watched after.)

[Torah613]

I used to wear it back in the day when I was an SSPXite. Actually I wore a fivefold scapular and numerous medals.

Now I simply wear my Orthodox Baptismal Cross (even when I was an Episcopalean) as its symbolism carries much more weight with me.

Joe Zollars

[higgs2]

What is a scapular, exactly? :eek:

[EvAnglican]

What is a scapular, exactly? :eek:

I just did Google images on it. It's a necklace.

[PaladinValer]

It is NOT a necklace.

It is a sash, worn around the neck. Often made of leather and cloth, brown in color.

[ChasingADream]

I hope this isn't a dumb question but is there a Scapular for St. Luke? I think there's one for St. Christopher, St. Joseph & St. Anthony. That's all I've heard of though.

[EvAnglican]

It is NOT a necklace.

It is a sash, worn around the neck. Often made of leather and cloth, brown in color.

So a necklace then.

[PaladinValer]

A necklace refers to jewelry, not sacramentals.

[EvAnglican]

Oh my....

It's a necklace, Paladin. What's the big deal?

It's certainly not a sash...

[SeenAndUnseen]

So a necklace then.

It may appear to be a necklace, but the scapular is more a piece of spiritual armor; it was fashioned after the shoulder part of monk's robes from long ago, so it is really more like a habit than jewelry.

People who are enrolled in the confraternity of the brown scapular take on additional prayer responsibilities and strive to follow the "rule" of the confraternity, which involves daily prayer and meditation, acts of charity, and penance on Wednesdays and Fridays.

[Torah613]

actually it is a modified cloak. The original scapular, still visible in monastic habbits, is the long rectangular piece of cloth worn over the cassock.

Joe Zollars

[EvAnglican]

actually it is a modified cloak.

Doesn't look like it would keep the wearer very warm...

[ChasingADream]

I hope this isn't a dumb question but is there a Scapular for St. Luke? I think there's one for St. Christopher, St. Joseph & St. Anthony. That's all I've heard of though.
Anyone? :confused:

[SeenAndUnseen]

Anyone? :confused:

I have never seen nor heard of a Saint Luke scapular. There is a white, a five-fold, a green, the brown scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (the original one), a blue, and a Saint Michael the Archangel scapular. There may be one or two others, but to my knowledge, no Saint Luke.

Here is a link to some information about scapulars:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13508b.htm

[ChasingADream]

I have never seen nor heard of a Saint Luke scapular. There is a white, a five-fold, a green, the brown scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (the original one), a blue, and a Saint Michael the Archangel scapular. There may be one or two others, but to my knowledge, no Saint Luke.

Thank you :hug:

[Torah613]

Doesn't look like it would keep the wearer very warm...

well not in the form worn by laypeople no. It is a spiritual reminder, not a garment jewlry or otherwise. However it was originally based upon a garment.

Joe Zollars

[higgs2]

So is it worn underneath the clothing?

[karen freeinchristman]

The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. According to a pious tradition the Blessed Virgin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) appeared to St. Simon Stock (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13800a.htm) at Cambridge, England (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03211a.htm), on Sunday, 16 July, 1251. In answer to his appeal for help for his oppressed order, she appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said: "Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04223a.htm) and for thee and all Carmelites (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03354a.htm) a special sign of grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm); whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm). It is the sign of salvation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm), a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant".

...protection of the Blessed Virgin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) for his whole order and for all who should wear the Carmelite (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03354a.htm) habit, that the Blessed Virgin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) also promised him to grant special aid, especially in the hour of death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04660c.htm), to those who in holy fidelity wore this habit in her honour (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm) throughout life, so that they should be preserved from hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm). And, even though there is here no direct reference to the members of the scapular confraternity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04223a.htm), indirectly the promise is extended to all who from devotion to the Mother of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm) should wear her habit or badge, like true Christians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm), until death, and be thus as it were affiliated to the Carmelite Order (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03354a.htm).



...Nevertheless, even should we admit that the small scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel originated even as late as the beginning of the sixteenth d. or this privilege (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12436b.htm) declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) for the Blessed Virgin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm), shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) and eternity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm). Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm) relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01443b.htm), but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm), may securely hope that Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) will through her powerful and motherly intercession (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm) procure for him all the necessary graces (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) for true conversion (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04347a.htm) and for perseverance in good (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm).

The second privilege (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12436b.htm) of the scapular otherwise known as the Sabbatine privilege (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm), may be briefly defined as meaning that Mary's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) motherly assistance for her servants in the Scapular Confraternity will continue after death, and will find effect especially on Saturday (the day consecrated to her honour (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm)), provided that the members fulfill faithfully the not easy conditions necessary for obtaining this privilege (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm).

... Like the rosary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm), this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) and the true servant of Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm).


If you guys get a lot out of wearing this, then fine. I, however, feel very uncomfortable with what I see in the words quoted above (from the link someone provided). No mention of Christ, only that we should be 'true servants of Mary', 'trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary', and that by wearing this, we will be protected from Hell. None of this seems right to me.

I don't want to offend any of you who do wear it, but I have to state my serious reservations about this.

[Naomi4Christ]

[color=black]


If you guys get a lot out of wearing this, then fine. I, however, feel very uncomfortable with what I see in the words quoted above (from the link someone provided). No mention of Christ, only that we should be 'true servants of Mary', 'trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary', and that by wearing this, we will be protected from Hell. None of this seems right to me.

I don't want to offend any of you who do wear it, but I have to state my serious reservations about this.

The thought that springs to mind is of LDS and their garments.

[karen freeinchristman]

It may appear to be a necklace, but the scapular is more a piece of spiritual armor
Ephesians 6:13-18
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

Thus, the armour of God appears to be: truth, righteousness, readiness, faith, salvation, the Spirit, and the word of God.

:prayer:

[ContraMundum]

Thank you for saying this, CM. I'm sure it's what lots of us are thinking.

Someone had to speak out for our historic, and I might add majority, position.

There are so many inconsistancies in "scapular" wearing and the whole doctrine associated with it I think anyone who wears it does so because they lack faith in Christ and lack trust in the scriptures, which bid us to only devote ourselves to Jesus Christ the Messiah and no other. If you cling in faith to Christ, He will save you. We have to hold to this or we lose the Gospel. All other trinkets and ideas and fleets of fancy based on some Pope's personal private "revelation" are merely distractions from Christ, and thus the Gospel. Why eat chaff when you can have wheat? We want the new life in the Holy Spirit, and this does not come from trinkets.

[ContraMundum]

Ephesians 6:13-18
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.


Thus, the armour of God appears to be: truth, righteousness, readiness, faith, salvation, the Spirit, and the word of God.

:prayer:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to karen freeinchristman again."

Praise Jesus for His precious salvation!

[Naomi4Christ]

Someone had to speak out for our historic, and I might add majority, position.

There are so many inconsistancies in "scapular" wearing and the whole doctrine associated with it I think anyone who wears it does so because they lack faith in Christ and lack trust in the scriptures, which bid us to only devote ourselves to Jesus Christ the Messiah and no other. If you cling in faith to Christ, He will save you. We have to hold to this or we lose the Gospel. All other trinkets and ideas and fleets of fancy based on some Pope's personal private "revelation" are merely distractions from Christ, and thus the Gospel. Why eat chaff when you can have wheat? We want the new life in the Holy Spirit, and this does not come from trinkets.

This also reminds me of the story of David and Goliath. No amount of physical armour was going to protect David - in fact, it was a burden to him. It was faith in God that enabled him to defeat Goliath.

[ContraMundum]

This also reminds me of the story of David and Goliath. No amount of physical armour was going to protect David - in fact, it was a burden to him. It was faith in God that enabled him to defeat Goliath.

This reminds me of a story which ironically the "Catholics" love to rant and rave about- when the Jewish soldiers (who did not place all their trust in God) wore idols of Jamnia to battle for that "extra protection" and when they died the devout Jews knew they had died in sin, and prayed for them.

[gtsecc]

I believe those who wear them would say it is the faith that the scapular reminds them of, not the scapular itself, which is the amour.

Do those who criticize scapulars wear crosses?

[EvAnglican]

I believe those who wear them would say it is the faith that the scapular reminds them of, not the scapular itself, which is the amour.


The scapular is love? Oh dear - the important thing is to love Jesus and love people.

Wearing a cross is a way of identifying as a Christian, rather like a Sikh wearing a turban. I personally do not wear a cross and prefer to show my Christian faith by keeping Christ's great commandments.

[karen freeinchristman]

The scapular is love? Oh dear

I think gtsecc meant to put 'armour', not 'amour'!

[ContraMundum]

I believe those who wear them would say it is the faith that the scapular reminds them of, not the scapular itself, which is the amour.

Do those who criticize scapulars wear crosses?

Wearing a cross is not like wearing a scapular. There is no promise that Mary will spring you out of Purgatory early if you wear a cross. It is simply a reminder or identifier of faith, or, that you are in a rock band.

[karen freeinchristman]

Do those who criticize scapulars wear crosses?

Actually, I do not usually wear a cross, I wear a necklace which has a silver dove pendant, symbolising the Holy Spirit. But necklaces, crosses or otherwise, are something that is a visible sign of faith to be seen by others as a kind of witness. The scapular is not worn to be seen, I don't think. Although I'm sure if it were worn on the outside of the clothing, it would soon be seen as a trendy new fashion, and (kind of like the cross necklace is now) worn as secular bling by celebrities and gang members.

Look, I don't really want to criticise anyones intention of wearing the scapular, because I am pretty sure their intention is fine.

[higgs2]

The thought that springs to mind is of LDS and their garments.

That was exactly my thought.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I am a lover of Christ. More than anything. My sweet, humble, and meek Lord is life to me. His very name is honey to the tongue. I also deeply love the Scriptures and draw wonderful inspiration and comfort from their truths. I love to study them, and to pray them, and to be taught by them.

I wear the scapular. I also preach the scapular. I partake of such heavenly grace from wearing it I can compare it to almost no other devotion. It is such a simple practice, too. It's humble and wonderful. The very, very simple children of faith are able to wear it devoutly and take immense comfort in it. Perhaps some learned preachers and scholars would debunk it, but the very simple love the scapular, and some of the wisest saints.

I presented two of my friends with scapulars earlier this week. They both wear them and say a Hail Mary each day, and have begun to say other prayers. I've seen such a wonderful change begin to occur in both of them! I credit this to Our Lord working through the scapular.

While some may speak against it, I see no reason! It isn't harming them at all, but it is of benefit to so many Christian souls.

[Torah613]

[color=black]


If you guys get a lot out of wearing this, then fine. I, however, feel very uncomfortable with what I see in the words quoted above (from the link someone provided). No mention of Christ, only that we should be 'true servants of Mary', 'trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary', and that by wearing this, we will be protected from Hell. None of this seems right to me.

I don't want to offend any of you who do wear it, but I have to state my serious reservations about this.

I have the same reservations which is why I replaced mine with a simple neckcross, which fo course is never some sort of magic charm but rather a reminder of my sinful nature.

Joe Zollars

[PaladinValer]

No Mary, no Salvation.

Why?

No Mary, no Jesus.

This is something a lot of Christians seem to misunderstand.

[SeenAndUnseen]

No Mary, no Salvation.

Why?

No Mary, no Jesus.

This is something a lot of Christians seem to misunderstand.

That is a good point.

Mary alone has a unique relationship with all three persons of the Trinity; to the Holy Spirit, she is spouse, to God the Father, she is the highly favored one who was kept secret until the time of her fiat -- even from the angels in Heaven, and to Jesus, she is the most pure and blessed mother. She was made "full of grace," and was given to us by Christ on the cross to be for us what she was for Him -- that dear and special mother who can guide and strengthen us in all faith, to whom we as children can run when we fall or get hurt or are afraid.

[ContraMundum]

No Mary, no Salvation.

Why?

No Mary, no Jesus.

This is something a lot of Christians seem to misunderstand.
What's this got to do with scapulars?

The claims of the scapular are "no scapular, no Mary, no early rescue from Purgatory."

Anyway, you have touched on something quite pertinent- no Mary, no Jesus. But that's not exactly how we approach Christ, is it? The proper logic should be no Mary, no incarnation, no Jesus, no salvation. Mary's role in salvation is over, and she never bids us to use her to come the Christ (although some apparitions claiming to be her say so). The incarnation is history. We live under Pentecost.

[erin74]

*MOD HAT ON*


Just a little rule reminder folks.

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
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b. Baiting where a member harasses another member to the point where he or she might retaliate in a flame.


Let's keep it friendly ok.

Remember if you want people to hear what you have to say, you need to say it in a way that they can hear it.


*MOD HAT OFF*

[Tetzel]

I've seen grander claims about the brown scapular than no purgatory.


What a Wonderful Consolation to know that we can be assured of Salvation by giving just fifteen minutes a day to Praying the Rosary.

Another magnificent assurance of Salvation is Our Lady's Brown Scapular. One of the great mysteries of our time is that the great majority of Catholics either ignore or have forgotten the Blessed Virgin Mary's promise that "whoever dies clothed in this (Scapular) shall not suffer eternal fire." She further says: "Wear it devoutly and perserveringly. It is my garment. To be clothed in it means you are continually thinking of me, and I in turn, am always thinking of you and helping you to secure eternal life." Many Catholics may not know that it is the wish of our Holy Father, the Pope, that the Scapular Medal should not be worn in place of the Cloth Scapular without sufficient reason. Mary cannot be pleased with anyone who substitutes the medal out of vanity or fear to make open profession of religion. Such persons run the risk of not receiving the promise. The medal has never been noted for any of the miraculous preservations attributed to the Brown Cloth Scapular. To obtain the fullest possible benefits from the Brown Scapular devotion, one must be validly invested (sometimes called enrolled) in the Brown Scapular by a priest. Every priest has the privilege of enrolling Catholics in the Scapular. After having received the initial blessed Scapular from a priest, no other Scapular need be blessed before wearing. The blessing and imposition are attached to the wearer for life.


Preceding quote is from
http://olrl.org/pray/rosary.shtml

So if anyone wants in on this you can buy one here for 20 cents http://olrl.org/sacramental/brownscapular.shtml

Here is a picture of the nicer 35 cent model http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs75&d=06144&f=brownscapular.jpg

[higgs2]

I've seen grander claims about the brown scapular than no purgatory.



Preceding quote is from
http://olrl.org/pray/rosary.shtml

So if anyone wants in on this you can buy one here for 20 cents http://olrl.org/sacramental/brownscapular.shtml

Here is a picture of the nicer 35 cent model http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs75&d=06144&f=brownscapular.jpg

:eek: Wow, I'm speechless.

[Tetzel]

:eek: Wow, I'm speechless.

As am I. After all, I wouldn't want to violate the rules posted in the post before mine.

[higgs2]

As am I. After all, I wouldn't want to violate the rules posted in the post before mine.

Good for you. :holy:

^_^

[PaladinValer]

What's this got to do with scapulars?

Nothing...at least not directly.

The claims of the scapular are "no scapular, no Mary, no early rescue from Purgatory."

Wrong.

"Whoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire. Our Lady's scapular promise" is what is said. That does not in any way, shape, or form say what you attribute.

Anyway, you have touched on something quite pertinent- no Mary, no Jesus. But that's not exactly how we approach Christ, is it? The proper logic should be no Mary, no incarnation, no Jesus, no salvation.

Fine, but you actually just said the same thing as me, just with extra steps:

1. ~M->~I (premise)
2. ~I->~J (premise)
3. ~J->~S (premise)
4. ~M->~J (1,2: Syllogism)
5. ~M->~S (4,3: Syllogism)

Still pans out the same. I just shortened it.

Mary's role in salvation is over, and she never bids us to use her to come the Christ (although some apparitions claiming to be her say so). The incarnation is history. We live under Pentecost.

That's not the point I'm making.

And if I want to ask the Blessed and Holy Mother to pray for my soul in the form of wearing a scapular, then by God, I will. This is part of the Communion of Saints; death is now powerless and through the Spirit, all, be they on earth, in sheol, or in heaven, are eternally In Communion with each other thanks to Christ.

[ContraMundum]

Wrong.

"Whoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire. Our Lady's scapular promise" is what is said. That does not in any way, shape, or form say what you attribute.

Umm....you do know that what you quoted is only one part of the story, don't you?

What you quote is the promise to St Simon Stock. However, "Our Lady of Carmel" allegedly appeared to Pope John XXII and made this promise for those wearing her scapular (which I believe reconfirmed another previous promise) "I, the Mother of Grace, shall decend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory I shall set free". This exact promise was confirmed by several Popes afterward- Alexander V, Clement VII, Pius V etc.

I stand by what I said.

Fine, but you actually just said the same thing as me, just with extra steps:

1. ~M->~I (premise)
2. ~I->~J (premise)
3. ~J->~S (premise)
4. ~M->~J (1,2: Syllogism)
5. ~M->~S (4,3: Syllogism)

Still pans out the same. I just shortened it.

Keep up on this logic kick and I guarantee you'll be a Calvinist in a couple more months. :)

And if I want to ask the Blessed and Holy Mother to pray for my soul in the form of wearing a scapular, then by God, I will.

Why would you do such a thing? Don't you know the Holy Spirit intercedes for you?

Aren't you just a little suspicious that some apparition claims that wearing trinkets will make her come to your aid in Purgatory, when God the Holy Spirit intercedes for you and the Blood of Christ cleanses from all sin and opens the gates of Heaven to you?

This is part of the Communion of Saints; death is now powerless and through the Spirit, all, be they on earth, in sheol, or in heaven, are eternally In Communion with each other thanks to Christ.

Right, but does the wearing of the scapular make you born again? Did you get the Holy Spirit by wearing this trinket or did you get it by faith? Only twice born people are in the communion of saints, and only faith in Christ can keep you there.

[SeenAndUnseen]

"Our Lady of Carmel" allegedly appeared to Pope John XXII and made this promise for those wearing her scapular (which I believe reconfirmed another previous promise) "I, the Mother of Grace, shall decend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory I shall set free". This exact promise was confirmed by several Popes afterward- Alexander V, Clement VII, Pius V etc.



And what of it, Contra? Why do you think Our Lady would not be able to deliver such a message to the faithful? Is she not the well beloved spouse of the Holy Spirit? Could God not have given her the stores of grace to impart to those who remain steadfast in prayer and love of the Lord? Where do you see that this is so objectionable?

Don't you know the Holy Spirit intercedes for you?

Aren't you just a little suspicious that some apparition claims that wearing trinkets will make her come to your aid in Purgatory, when God the Holy Spirit intercedes for you and the Blood of Christ cleanses from all sin and opens the gates of Heaven to you?



Right, but does the wearing of the scapular make you born again? Did you get the Holy Spirit by wearing this trinket or did you get it by faith? Only twice born people are in the communion of saints, and only faith in Christ can keep you there.

What are you talking about when you say the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, and what do you suppose "born again" means?

[higgs2]

And what of it, Contra? Why do you think Our Lady would not be able to deliver such a message to the faithful? Is she not the well beloved spouse of the Holy Spirit? Could God not have given her the stores of grace to impart to those who remain steadfast in prayer and love of the Lord? Where do you see that this is so objectionable?



What are you talking about when you say the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, and what do you suppose "born again" means?

the well beloved spouse of the holy spirit? I've never heard such a thing before. Where is this from? :confused:

[PaladinValer]

Umm....you do know that what you quoted is only one part of the story, don't you?

What you quote is the promise to St Simon Stock. However, "Our Lady of Carmel" allegedly appeared to Pope John XXII and made this promise for those wearing her scapular (which I believe reconfirmed another previous promise) "I, the Mother of Grace, shall decend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory I shall set free". This exact promise was confirmed by several Popes afterward- Alexander V, Clement VII, Pius V etc.

I stand by what I said.

Is that on the scapular? Is that the promise of the scapular?

Why would you do such a thing? Don't you know the Holy Spirit intercedes for you?

Then do not ask people here to pray for you, since obviously the Holy Spirit intercedes for you too.

Aren't you just a little suspicious that some apparition claims that wearing trinkets will make her come to your aid in Purgatory, when God the Holy Spirit intercedes for you and the Blood of Christ cleanses from all sin and opens the gates of Heaven to you?

Its a sacramental, not a trinket. It is what it represents is why I bought it: undeserved agape.

Right, but does the wearing of the scapular make you born again? Did you get the Holy Spirit by wearing this trinket or did you get it by faith? Only twice born people are in the communion of saints, and only faith in Christ can keep you there.

Not the point.

If you don't like the scapular, then don't get one. I like it, and I have one. I enjoy what it represents and I wear it for that. It has brought me happiness, peace, and joy.

If you don't like that, then I honestly think you're missing the point of the scapular out of a personal crusade of a preceived evil done. No evil was done to me; something wondroud happened instead.

[higgs2]

Umm....you do know that what you quoted is only one part of the story, don't you?

What you quote is the promise to St Simon Stock. However, "Our Lady of Carmel" allegedly appeared to Pope John XXII and made this promise for those wearing her scapular (which I believe reconfirmed another previous promise) "I, the Mother of Grace, shall decend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory I shall set free". This exact promise was confirmed by several Popes afterward- Alexander V, Clement VII, Pius V etc.

I stand by what I said.



Keep up on this logic kick and I guarantee you'll be a Calvinist in a couple more months. :)



Why would you do such a thing? Don't you know the Holy Spirit intercedes for you?

Aren't you just a little suspicious that some apparition claims that wearing trinkets will make her come to your aid in Purgatory, when God the Holy Spirit intercedes for you and the Blood of Christ cleanses from all sin and opens the gates of Heaven to you?



Right, but does the wearing of the scapular make you born again? Did you get the Holy Spirit by wearing this trinket or did you get it by faith? Only twice born people are in the communion of saints, and only faith in Christ can keep you there.
Hmmm. Well "trinket" is a pretty inflammatory term.

[Torah613]

Umm....you do know that what you quoted is only one part of the story, don't you?

What you quote is the promise to St Simon Stock. However, "Our Lady of Carmel" allegedly appeared to Pope John XXII and made this promise for those wearing her scapular (which I believe reconfirmed another previous promise) "I, the Mother of Grace, shall decend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory I shall set free". This exact promise was confirmed by several Popes afterward- Alexander V, Clement VII, Pius V etc.

I stand by what I said.



Keep up on this logic kick and I guarantee you'll be a Calvinist in a couple more months. :)



Why would you do such a thing? Don't you know the Holy Spirit intercedes for you?

Aren't you just a little suspicious that some apparition claims that wearing trinkets will make her come to your aid in Purgatory, when God the Holy Spirit intercedes for you and the Blood of Christ cleanses from all sin and opens the gates of Heaven to you?



Right, but does the wearing of the scapular make you born again? Did you get the Holy Spirit by wearing this trinket or did you get it by faith? Only twice born people are in the communion of saints, and only faith in Christ can keep you there.

Right, which is why in many artistic depictions Mary can be seen pulling people out of purgatory by the strings of the scapular.

Frankly, I'll stick with my simple, hidden neckcross as a personal reminder of my sinfullness and constant need of repentance.

Joe Zollars

[SirTimothy]

Is she not the well beloved spouse of the Holy Spirit

Ummm, no, she's not.

Timothy

[ContraMundum]

And what of it, Contra? Why do you think Our Lady would not be able to deliver such a message to the faithful?

Because that's the role of God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Is she not the well beloved spouse of the Holy Spirit?

No, the Body of Christ is the bride. The real Mary is part of that bride, but not the sum of it.

Could God not have given her the stores of grace to impart to those who remain steadfast in prayer and love of the Lord? Where do you see that this is so objectionable?


Sounds like your apparition claiming to be "Mary" wants to usurp the role of God the Holy Spirit.

There is no "storehouse" of grace (eg. "treasury of merit") that is distributed like presents by human beings to others for their salvation.

Please remember that I am an Anglican, and thus my theology is in line with that. We believe that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin, and that by faith through the means of grace we obtain the grace and salvation that the Blood of Christ bought for us, and through no other mediator other than God can we obtain this great gift of salvation.

What are you talking about when you say the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, and what do you suppose "born again" means?

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And:

If you don't know what being "born again" means, and how it manifests in our lives, then I suggest you read up on it. For this thread, let's stay on track.

[ContraMundum]

Is that on the scapular? Is that the promise of the scapular?

You're being pedantic. Fans of the scapular wear it because of the promises, obviously. They claim that there are benefits to it. I don't seperate the item from the alledged benefit/promise.

Then do not ask people here to pray for you, since obviously the Holy Spirit intercedes for you too.

As an intelligent person, you should be able to work out a couple of things:

a) I am not stupid, and thus, comments such as that gain little in the way of winning a point with me. This forum is not a playing surface for the "let's try out the stuff at Catholic Answers on Anglicans" game, so I suggest if you want to promote Roman Catholicism, go to OBOB or GT and totally enjoy yourself. I say it's time to get the Roman apologetics off of this forum.

b) The interecession of the Holy Spirit is beyond our intercessions, beyond that of the faithful departed and obviously directly the will of God. See: scripture.

c) The topic is the scapular. The promises of the scapular are absurd to those who hold to Anglican custom and theology, even though we allow all kinds of things, you won't find scapular propaganda in our best dogmatic works. We do not believe that St Mary is looking for people wearing scapulars to die so she can make her weekly Saturday trip to Purgatory to spring them out early. We do not believe that wearing this piece of cloth amounts to any form of begging for saintly intercession that exceeds that which is of the Holy Spirit's work in our salvation.

d) The intercession of living saints one for another is commanded by God, yet we do not, in our weakness, know how to pray completely, and thus, the Holy Spirit interceeds for us in ways we cannot understand.

e) The intercession of the faithful departed is also a mystery, but we know for sure that they do not make weekly trips to purgatory to break out the cloth wearing faithful.

f) If Purgatory exists as a place outside of the natural, evident world, then it is not bound by space and time, and thus, there is no Saturday there. Obviously, this alone would show the whole idea behind this custom to be the invention of some human institution, which incidentaly made a lot of money out of similar flights of fancy pushed onto the captive church.

Its a sacramental, not a trinket. It is what it represents is why I bought it: undeserved agape.

Over at OBOB and to you it's a sacramental. To me, at STR, it's a trinket. It's a useless peice of cloth based on a myth that has no merit. You can wax lyrical all you like over at OBOB about it, but don't expect to preach such leaven here without some kind of resistance, at least from me. I know I'm supposed to roll over and play dead and act all nice about it, but I don't think this is a suitable place to promote this item, according to forum rules.

If you don't like the scapular, then don't get one. I like it, and I have one. I enjoy what it represents and I wear it for that. It has brought me happiness, peace, and joy.

A playstation can give you happiness, peace and joy. So can a hit of heroin. But, the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, according to St Paul (Rom. 14:17, cf 1 Thess 1:6) He informs us that we get this Holy Spirit by faith, not by pieces of cloth.

If you don't like that, then I honestly think you're missing the point of the scapular out of a personal crusade of a preceived evil done. No evil was done to me; something wondroud happened instead.

That's fine. No one can doubt your personal experience, it's yours, but I think it's misplaced faith, and I'm going to tell you so. I know I'll probably get in trouble for speaking my mind, but I have to say what I think on this matter.

I love you my brother, and I know you're a smart, diligent young man, and I hope you see past the words and understand that I am only holding to what most of our brethren have believed since the beginning. I may be misinformed according to you, but I have gone to the sources, so please consider that perhaps you are the one who has been misled by some tract or book somewhere.

[pmcleanj]

This is an official moderator post.

This thread sports a number of posts with sarcastic comments and cutting terminology. That tone of posting should cease. Comments like "read my post", "I can't be bothered", or "do your homework" brink the rules against baiting and responding to the poster instead of the post.

Overstatements of the scope, or effect, or universality of various pieties, disciplines or doctrines similarly tend to disrupt the board. Such florid language should also cease.

Please remain on topic, courteous, and open to dialogue.

Regards,
Pamela

[ContraMundum]

Just delete the thread, or move it to OBOB, I think.

[PaladinValer]

You're being pedantic. Fans of the scapular wear it because of the promises, obviously. They claim that there are benefits to it. I don't seperate the item from the alledged benefit/promise.

I'm sorry, but that underlined part? You are simply incorrect here.

And you may not seperate, but you are not everyone. Don't you assume why I and others wear it.

a) I am not stupid, and thus, comments such as that gain little in the way of winning a point with me.

Then why are you assuming why I and others here are wearing the scapular? Honest question.

This forum is not a playing surface for the "let's try out the stuff at Catholic Answers on Anglicans" game, so I suggest if you want to promote Roman Catholicism, go to OBOB or GT and totally enjoy yourself.

Quite frankly, I've told you why I wear it. It has nothing to do with the Vatican Catholic Church and I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth that I never said nor implied.

Please, tell me why the other Anglicans on STR wear their scapulars. Don't ask them. Don't look at their posts; just say why.

b) The interecession of the Holy Spirit is beyond our intercessions, beyond that of the faithful departed and obviously directly the will of God. See: scripture.

This is not the point I'm making. Fallacy of Straw Man.

c) The topic is the scapular. The promises of the scapular are absurd to those who hold to Anglican custom and theology, even though we allow all kinds of things, you won't find scapular propaganda in our best dogmatic works.

Whose Anglicanism?

Love is against Anglican theology?
Praying for others is against Anglican theology?

TomUK recently posted a thread asking others to pray for his sister. I did out of agape. That's not Anglican?

We do not believe that St Mary is looking for people wearing scapulars to die so she can make her weekly Saturday trip to Purgatory to spring them out early.

Then it seems you don't, with all due respect, understand what the scapular means to us.

We do not believe that wearing this piece of cloth amounts to any form of begging for saintly intercession that exceeds that which is of the Holy Spirit's work in our salvation.

I will petition the Virgin Mother of God, my deceased grandmothers, and all the other good souls all I please. If I derive comfort and solas out of it, who are you to say to me "stop"?

d) The intercession of living saints one for another is commanded by God, yet we do not, in our weakness, know how to pray completely, and thus, the Holy Spirit interceeds for us in ways we cannot understand.

Straw Man.

e) The intercession of the faithful departed is also a mystery, but we know for sure that they do not make weekly trips to purgatory to break out the cloth wearing faithful.

Straw Man.

f) If Purgatory exists as a place outside of the natural, evident world, then it is not bound by space and time, and thus, there is no Saturday there.

Whoever the heck said I believe in the Roman understanding of Purgatory? You read my posts in other threads and you should know by now that I disagree with their understanding. Stop insinuating otherwise.

Obviously, this alone would show the whole idea behind this custom to be the invention of some human institution, which incidentaly made a lot of money out of similar flights of fancy pushed onto the captive church.

Anything can be sold. The Bible itself is a powerful sacramental...should I no longer buy Bibles?


Over at OBOB and to you it's a sacramental. To me, at STR, it's a trinket. It's a useless peice of cloth based on a myth that has no merit.

Its quite obvious that, at miminum, a sizable minority here value the scapular. If you don't like that, I'm sorry, but perhaps you can find a better way of dealing with it.

You can wax lyrical all you like over at OBOB about it, but don't expect to preach such leaven here without some kind of resistance, at least from me. I know I'm supposed to roll over and play dead and act all nice about it, but I don't think this is a suitable place to promote this item, according to forum rules.

You don't; higher powers say otherwise. Until I hear from one of the staff here saying that I cannot, then I will continue praising my love of the scapular, worshiping the Body and Blood, petitioning the Saints, and all other "idolatrous, vain, empty, money-gotten, what-have-you-in-your-opinion" practices that I want.

That's fine. No one can doubt your personal experience, it's yours, but I think it's misplaced faith, and I'm going to tell you so. I know I'll probably get in trouble for speaking my mind, but I have to say what I think on this matter.

A paraphrase from the Bible:

"And the followers of Jesus noticed that there were those who were not among their own group, casting out demons, healing people, and performing all other miracles in Jesus' Name. And when they begged Jesus to tell them to stop, Jesus rebuked them and said 'those who are not against me are for me, and those who use my Name will be unable to speak evil about my Name. Leave them at peace'."

[pmcleanj]

:cool: