new covenant????

[BrEnDiNo99]

perhapes some one can shed some light upoun what people have told me. When I tell them about messianic judaism they tell me that when yeshua came that a new covenant was made, but I ask them where in the bible does it speak of that?? and also i can qoute this accuratly yeshua said " I have not come to abolish the old law I have only come to fullfill it". and another part of my opinion is why would the old testament be in the bible if it did not matter?? so yes as far as im concerned there is no new covenant, but i could be wrong so if some one could shed some light :).



thanks a bunch

[plum]

have you checked out this resource? You'll find some threads on the New Covenant and other topics like this:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22202292&postcount=2

[tall73]

There is certainly a new covenant. You can find details in Hebrews 8 (as well as in the OT where it was quoted from!).

But in the new covenant the law is not done away with, but written on the heart and in the mind.

[plum]

Jeremiah 31 is the most popular "New Covenant" Scripture for us MJs.
GREAT resource: "What's So New About the New Covenant?" video presentation/lecture by Tim Hegg which can be bought from www.ffoz.org

[stone]

There is certainly a new covenant. You can find details in Hebrews 8 (as well as in the OT where it was quoted from!).

But in the new covenant the law is not done away with, but written on the heart and in the mind.

had to dbl check; Hebrews is about the priesthood right?

***

The Book of Hebrews Chapter 8

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; (http://biblenotes.homestead.com/files/bn9851.htm)

[Shimshon]

Yes, it's about the priesthood, through whom the people receive the law. And if one changes so to does the other in which it was connected to.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hebrews 7:11-12
Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

[BrEnDiNo99]

thanks a bunch guys big help :D

[BrEnDiNo99]

thanks a bunch guys big help :D

[BrEnDiNo99]

oops double post

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are these both the same Covenants? Thanks.

[Young] Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts. 2 And who is bearing the day of his coming?

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.

[christinepro]

http://www.messianic.com/articles/nt-law.htm

The New Testament Speaks Out On the Law

The Law of YHVH , given by Him from creation and mediated by angels to all the prophets, is the Hebrew word Torah, which means holy teaching or instruction.
The New Testament/Covenant does not negate the Law, rather. . .
1. The Law is increased in the heart by the New Covenant in Messiah.
"Behold, the days come, declares YHVH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt . . . But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel . . . I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
"And when they heard it, they glorified the L-RD, and said unto him, 'You see brother, how many thousands of Jews there are who believe, and they are all zealous of the Law" (Acts 21:20).
2. The Law is perpetual throughout the New Covenant until the end of time.
"For I say to you absolutely, until heaven and earth pass away and everything is accomplished, in no way will one small letter or one minute punctuation be taken from the Law" (Matthew 5:18).
3. The Messiah expects the Law to be taught, not abolished.
"Do not suppose that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to complete . . . Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But, whoever shall do them and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5: 17,19).
4. The Apostle Paul wanted to establish the Law, not abolish it.
"Do we then make the Law void through faith? May it never be! Rather, we establish the Law" (Romans 3:3 1).
5. Messiah will reject anyone who works against the Law.
"Not every one who says to Me, L-RD, L-RD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, L-RD, L-RD, have we not prophesied in Your name? and in Your name cast out devils? and in Your name done many wonderful works? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you! Depart from me, you who work against the Law* " (Matthew 7:21-23).
[Note: The King James Version says "iniquity" but the Greek word is anomia, meaning lawless, anti-law or "against the Law. "]
6. Without the teaching of the Law we cannot know what YHVH considers to be sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the Law, for sin is the transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).
"For by the Law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3 :20).
"I had not known about sin, but by the Law, for I had not known what lust is, unless the Law had said, 'Thou shalt not covet"' (Romans 7:7).
7. The Law remains holy, right and good.
"Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and right, and good"
8. The Law is spiritual and only the spiritually discerning can understand it.
"For we know that the Law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14).
"The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).
9. The Law is valid instruction under the New Covenant
"But He (Messiah) answered and said, 'It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"' (Matthew 4:4).
"Every scripture * is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3: 16).
[Note: The early New Covenant believers had only the Law and the prophets as their scripture. ]
10. Being "under grace" does not mean we reject the Law.
"Shall we sin (transgress the Law), because we are not under the Law, but under grace? May it never be!" (Romans 6:15)
[Note: Paul's statement, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the Law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14), is one of the most misunderstood of the New Testament. Being "not under the Law" does not mean we can reject or disobey the Law. The idea is one of perspective. The Law is to be in us instead of over us. It means the Law is taught in us by the Spirit instead of at us. We are under grace, which is the power not to sin, or "transgress the Law. " Instead of the Law commanding us from without, it operates in us by the Spirit of Grace. For this reason Paul says, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:2). And, John says, "Whoever is born of God does not keep committing sin . . . he cannot continue in sin because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whoever does not do righteousness is not of God, neither he that does not love his brother" (1 John 3:9,10).]
11. Doing the Law is not sufficient to justify a person.
"And by Him (Messiah) all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses" (Acts 13 :39).
"Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in his sight" (Romans 3 :20).
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? May it never be!" (Galatians 2:17).
[Note: The inability of the Law to justify a person does not negate the truth of the Law. It is the Law which demands we have a sacrifice for sin. Faith in the justification which comes through Messiah's sacrifice is itself an obedience to the Law. "You must be born again" is in essence a commandment.]
12. Apostle Paul lived and taught the Law.
"Paul . . . sailed into Syria . . . having cut his hair in Cenchrea, for he had (completed) a vow" (Acts 18: 18) . See Numbers 6:5.
"Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise" (Ephesians 6:2).
"For it is written in the Law of Moses, You shall not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treads out the corn" (1 Corinthians 9:9).
"But this I confess unto you . . . I worship the God of my fathers, committed to all things which are written in the Law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14).
"Messiah, our passover, is sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep the feast (of Passover), not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" (1 Corinthians 5:7,8).
"But we know that the Law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for those against the Law and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane" (1 Timothy 1:8-10).
13. The Faithful Keep the Law.
"Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that says, 'I know him', and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:2-5). See 1 John 5:2,3.
"The dragon was angry . . . and went to make war with the remnant . . . which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah" (Revelation 12: 17).
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua" (Rev. 14:12).
Copyright 1996. David M. Hargis. All rights reserved.

[BarbB]

My Hebrew teacher says it's better understood as a "Renewed Covenant".

[LittleLambofJesus]

My Hebrew teacher says it's better understood as a "Renewed Covenant".Would you wear one "old" shoe and one "new" shoe together? :wave:

Are these both the same Covenants? Thanks.

[Young] Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts. 2 And who is bearing the day of his coming?

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.

[Shimshon]

But we know that the Law is good, if a man use it lawfully.

Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for those against the Law and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane" (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

And you can't say we are sinners. Because we 'were' sinners, now we are made pure and holy by the Spirit given us. This is why the 'law' does not is not applied to us who have been born of the Spirit. Notice I didn't say the law is 'abolished', just that as Shaul said, it is only against the unrighteous. And Yeshua has made us holy before God, NOW.

Rom 6:22
However, now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you do get the benefit - it consists in being made holy, set apart for God, and its end result is eternal life. Ephesians 5:3 Among you there should not even be mentioned sexual immorality, or any kind of impurity, or greed; these are utterly inappropriate for God's holy people. col 1:22 he has now reconciled in the Son's physical body through his death; in order to present you holy and without defect or reproach before himself - 1 thess 4:3 What God wants is that you be holy,
5:23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.



The kingdom of God is not the Torah of Moshe. You have been commanded to proclaim the kingdom in all the nations. To teach them to obey all commanded by him. Namely 'the kingdom is at hand'. Not the Torah of Moshe is to be applied to the world.

Luke 16:16
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

[BarbB]

Would you wear one "old" shoe and one "new" shoe together? :wave:

Are these both the same Covenants? ....


[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.

Wow, Little Lamb - I just read Jeremiah last week and missed this totally. Thanks for the ref. It's the same in Stern. I'm going to have to dig into my Pentateuch and Haftorah (it's not in order :( ) and see how it's translated there.

This is the part that I really liked:


JER 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
JER 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."


His law is now on my heart! :clap:

[stone]

Would you wear one "old" shoe and one "new" shoe together? :wave:

Are these both the same Covenants? Thanks.

[Young] Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts. 2 And who is bearing the day of his coming?

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.

yea, sounds like it,

Is this one of the prophecies that hasn't been fulfilled yet...? the makeing a new covenant?

[stone]

http://www.messianic.com/articles/nt-law.htm

The New Testament Speaks Out On the Law

The Law of YHVH , given by Him from creation and mediated by angels to all the prophets, is the Hebrew word Torah, which means holy teaching or instruction.
The New Testament/Covenant does not negate the Law, rather. . .

1. The Law is increased in the heart by the New Covenant in Messiah. "Behold, the days come, declares YHVH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt . . . But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel . . . I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
"And when they heard it, they glorified the L-RD, and said unto him, 'You see brother, how many thousands of Jews there are who believe, and they are all zealous of the Law" (Acts 21:20).

2. The Law is perpetual throughout the New Covenant until the end of time. "For I say to you absolutely, until heaven and earth pass away and everything is accomplished, in no way will one small letter or one minute punctuation be taken from the Law" (Matthew 5:18).

3. The Messiah expects the Law to be taught, not abolished. "Do not suppose that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to complete . . . Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But, whoever shall do them and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5: 17,19).

4. The Apostle Paul wanted to establish the Law, not abolish it. "Do we then make the Law void through faith? May it never be! Rather, we establish the Law" (Romans 3:3 1).

5. Messiah will reject anyone who works against the Law. "Not every one who says to Me, L-RD, L-RD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, L-RD, L-RD, have we not prophesied in Your name? and in Your name cast out devils? and in Your name done many wonderful works? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you! Depart from me, you who work against the Law* " (Matthew 7:21-23).
[Note: The King James Version says "iniquity" but the Greek word is anomia, meaning lawless, anti-law or "against the Law. "]

6. Without the teaching of the Law we cannot know what YHVH considers to be sin. "Whoever commits sin transgresses also the Law, for sin is the transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).
"For by the Law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3 :20).
"I had not known about sin, but by the Law, for I had not known what lust is, unless the Law had said, 'Thou shalt not covet"' (Romans 7:7).

7. The Law remains holy, right and good. "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and right, and good"

8. The Law is spiritual and only the spiritually discerning can understand it. "For we know that the Law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14).
"The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

9. The Law is valid instruction under the New Covenant "But He (Messiah) answered and said, 'It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"' (Matthew 4:4).
"Every scripture * is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3: 16).
[Note: The early New Covenant believers had only the Law and the prophets as their scripture. ]

10. Being "under grace" does not mean we reject the Law. "Shall we sin (transgress the Law), because we are not under the Law, but under grace? May it never be!" (Romans 6:15)
[Note: Paul's statement, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the Law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14), is one of the most misunderstood of the New Testament. Being "not under the Law" does not mean we can reject or disobey the Law. The idea is one of perspective. The Law is to be in us instead of over us. It means the Law is taught in us by the Spirit instead of at us. We are under grace, which is the power not to sin, or "transgress the Law. " Instead of the Law commanding us from without, it operates in us by the Spirit of Grace. For this reason Paul says, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:2). And, John says, "Whoever is born of God does not keep committing sin . . . he cannot continue in sin because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whoever does not do righteousness is not of God, neither he that does not love his brother" (1 John 3:9,10).]

11. Doing the Law is not sufficient to justify a person. "And by Him (Messiah) all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses" (Acts 13 :39).
"Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in his sight" (Romans 3 :20).
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? May it never be!" (Galatians 2:17).
[Note: The inability of the Law to justify a person does not negate the truth of the Law. It is the Law which demands we have a sacrifice for sin. Faith in the justification which comes through Messiah's sacrifice is itself an obedience to the Law. "You must be born again" is in essence a commandment.]

12. Apostle Paul lived and taught the Law. "Paul . . . sailed into Syria . . . having cut his hair in Cenchrea, for he had (completed) a vow" (Acts 18: 18) . See Numbers 6:5.
"Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise" (Ephesians 6:2).
"For it is written in the Law of Moses, You shall not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treads out the corn" (1 Corinthians 9:9).
"But this I confess unto you . . . I worship the God of my fathers, committed to all things which are written in the Law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14).
"Messiah, our passover, is sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep the feast (of Passover), not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" (1 Corinthians 5:7,8).
"But we know that the Law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for those against the Law and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane" (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

13. The Faithful Keep the Law. "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that says, 'I know him', and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:2-5). See 1 John 5:2,3.
"The dragon was angry . . . and went to make war with the remnant . . . which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah" (Revelation 12: 17).
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua" (Rev. 14:12).
Copyright 1996. David M. Hargis. All rights reserved.



this is awesome material! :clap:

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are these both the same Covenants? Thanks.

[Young] Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple [#1964] Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts. 2 And who is bearing the day of his coming?

1964 heykal hay-kawl' probably from 3201 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=3201) (in the sense of capacity); a large public building, such as a palace or temple:--palace, temple. 3201 yakol yaw-kole' or (fuller) yakowl {yaw-kole'}; a primitive root; to be able, literally (can, could) or morally (may, might):--be able, any at all (ways), attain, can (away with, (-not)), could, endure, might, overcome, have power, prevail, still, suffer.

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.BarbB: Wow, Little Lamb - I just read Jeremiah last week and missed this totally. Thanks for the ref. It's the same in Stern. I'm going to have to dig into my Pentateuch and Haftorah (it's not in order :( ) and see how it's translated there.

This is the part that I really liked: His law is now on my heart! :clap:yea, sounds like it,

Is this one of the prophecies that hasn't been fulfilled yet...? the makeing a new covenant?To us christians, it appears to have been fulfilled in Jesus, but I was wondering how the jews might view it. Is the messenger of the covenant in Malachi 3 literally Jesus or another? This is rather important to me and I just want to focus on Jeremiah 31:31 and Malachi 3:1 for now. Thoughts?

(Rotherham) Matthew 21:12 And Jesus entered into the temple [#2411], and cast out all who were selling and buying in the temple,--and, the tables of the money-changers, he overthrew, and the seats of them who were selling doves;

2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.2413. hieros hee-er-os' of uncertain affinity; sacred:--holy.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are these both the same Covenants? Thanks.

[Young] Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple [#1964] Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts. 2 And who is bearing the day of his coming?

1964 heykal hay-kawl' probably from 3201 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=3201) (in the sense of capacity); a large public building, such as a palace or temple:--palace, temple. 3201 yakol yaw-kole' or (fuller) yakowl {yaw-kole'}; a primitive root; to be able, literally (can, could) or morally (may, might):--be able, any at all (ways), attain, can (away with, (-not)), could, endure, might, overcome, have power, prevail, still, suffer.

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new [#02319] covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah. quote BarbB: Wow, Little Lamb - I just read Jeremiah last week and missed this totally. Thanks for the ref. It's the same in Stern. I'm going to have to dig into my Pentateuch and Haftorah (it's not in order :( ) and see how it's translated there.

This is the part that I really liked:I have another question. Is the New Covenant a "renewal" or "brand New"? Thanks.

(Young) Isaiah 43:19 Lo, I am doing a New Thing [#02319], now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a Way, In a desolate place--floods.

[Torah]

I have another question. Is the New Covenant a "renewal" or "brand New"? Thanks.


This should answer your “Question”.
http://www.christianforums.com/t1848514-new-covenant.html (http://www.christianforums.com/t1848514-new-covenant.html)

http://www.christianforums.com/t2648698-about-messianic-judaism.html (http://www.christianforums.com/t2648698-about-messianic-judaism.html)



"(Young) Isaiah 43:19 Lo, I am doing a New Thing [#02319], now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a Way, In a desolate place--floods"

Is this a Question????

[LittleLambofJesus]

This should answer your “Question”.
http://www.christianforums.com/t1848514-new-covenant.html (http://www.christianforums.com/t1848514-new-covenant.html)

http://www.christianforums.com/t2648698-about-messianic-judaism.html (http://www.christianforums.com/t2648698-about-messianic-judaism.html)



"(Young) Isaiah 43:19 Lo, I am doing a New Thing [#02319], now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a Way, In a desolate place--floods"

Is this a Question????
My opinion is that the "renewed" concept is whack.


I agree with you that the New Covenant is not yet completely in place..:eek:..but it began (at least partially) at the last Pesach of Yeshua....and will be fulfilled on the Great Succot to come.

Isaiah 25

In the meantime, there is something very new about gentiles being joined to the Commonwealth of Israel without circumcision that I don't think we fully appreciate this far removed from the controversy of Acts 15 :eek:The reason I brought up Isaiah 43:19 was it uses the same word for "New" as does Jeremiah 31:31.[depending on translation]. Why would God come and bring something New to mix with the Old?
Thoughts? Peace.

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new [#02319] covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.

"(Young) Isaiah 43:19 Lo, I am doing a New Thing [#02319], now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a Way, In a desolate place--floods"

[Wags]

Gentiles have always been saved the same way as Jews - by faith. By faith Abraham was saved, by faith Moses was saved...

Circumcision/ Torah observance is a response to salvation. We keep Torah (including the command to circumcise) because we are saved.

[Shimshon]

The reason I brought up Isaiah 43:19 was it uses the same word for "New" as does Jeremiah 31:31.[depending on translation]. Why would God come and bring something New to mix with the Old?
Thoughts? Peace.

[Young] Jerem 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new [#02319] covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.

"(Young) Isaiah 43:19 Lo, I am doing a New Thing [#02319], now it springeth up, Do ye not know it? Yea, I put in a wilderness a Way, In a desolate place--floods"The Torah has in it a shadow of the good things to come, but not the actual manifestation of the originals

Yeshua is the manifestation of God in the flesh. The Spirit of God walking and talking in a body. Not a shadow of this good thing, but the actual manifestation of the original.


Is a lamp brought in to be put under a basket, or under a bed, and not on a stand? 22 For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.




Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I support, my chosen one, in whom I take pleasure. I have put my Spirit on him; he will bring justice to the Goyim.

6 "I, ADONAI, called you righteously, I took hold of you by the hand, I shaped you and made you a covenant for the people, to be a light for the Goyim, 7 so that you can open blind eyes, free the prisoners from confinement, those living in darkness from the dungeon. 8 I am ADONAI; that is my name.

Our covenant is made through Yeshua, not through Moshe and the blood of animals.


Isaiah 43
18 "Stop dwelling on past events and brooding over times gone by; 19 I am doing something new; it's springing up - can't you see it? I am making a road in the desert, rivers in the wasteland.

A desert has no roads to be 're'built. Nor does a wasteland have a river to be 're'formed.

He is 'making' roads where there was none. A path where there was no way to enter before.


Isaiah 61
The Spirit of Adonai ELOHIM is upon me, because ADONAI has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark; 2 to proclaim the year of the favor of ADONAI and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, 3 yes, provide for those in Tziyon who mourn, giving them garlands instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a cloak of praise instead of a heavy spirit, so that they will be called oaks of righteousness planted by ADONAI, in which he takes pride.

Luke 37:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose." 44 So He kept on preaching in the synagogues of Judea.

Since when is the kingdom of God observing the Torah given Moshe? I've posted a witness here about the kingdom but nobody cared to listen.

If nothing has changed in regards to the Torah, why are 'we' now the temple of God? Why is his Spirit living inside us now instead of an Ark within a Temple? Which was 'Torah' given Moshe. Why did David place the Ark in 'another' tent instead of the Tabernacle and worship it there? Torah states it belongs in the Tabernacle, not in a persons personal tent!! Yet, David with the heart of God placed it in 'another' tent had worshipers singing and praising 24/7 while the Tabernacle still received the authorized offerings and sacrifices. Yet, it remained void of the ark.

Why do we have a new high priest, and no Temple or land? If the law given Moshe is ETERNAL!!


1 Tim 1:6 Some, by aiming amiss, have wandered off into fruitless discussion. 7 They want to be teachers of Torah, but they understand neither their own words nor the matters about which they make such emphatic pronouncements. 8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends. 9 We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching 11 that accords with the Good News of the glorious and blessed God.


This Good News was entrusted to me;
12 and I thank the one who has given me strength, the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord, that he considered me trustworthy enough to put me in his service,



Mark 1:1-8 1 The beginning of the Good News of Yeshua the Messiah, the Son of God: 2 It is written in the prophet Yesha`yahu, "See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you; he will prepare the way before you." 3 "The voice of someone crying out: `In the desert prepare the way for ADONAI! Make straight paths for him!'" 4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

7 He proclaimed: "After me is coming someone who is more powerful than I -- I'm not worthy even to bend down and untie his sandals. 8 I have immersed you in water, but he will immerse you in the Ruach HaKodesh."

Gentiles did not have entrance into the presence of God because the 'Torah observant' Jews had prevented them from entering. Against the given Torah. They where supposed to be accountable to the given Torah if they lived in 'the land'. This ment all rules and regs. Yet the Jews created traditions to keep them out. And so broke the covenant made with them.

Yeshua Promised he would come and give his Spirit to not only the Jews but through them to the world. THIS is the good news and the 'new thing' promised from the begining.

That now we all have a way into the presence of God that has NOTHING what soever to do with the ritual laws given Moshe. Though they all lead to this good news.

To claim you are saved to follow a broken covenant within an abandoned house is not only foolish in my understanding but contrary to the very good news Yeshua brought. It denys the very Torah said to be upheld.

All Torah and the prophets hang on Love, but some seem to say love hangs on the Torah. I've seen it said constantly that without observance to the Torah of Moshe you do not love God.

Yet Yeshua says the opposite.


John 5:39 You keep examining the Tanakh because you think that in it you have eternal life. Those very Scriptures bear witness to me, 40 but you won't come to me in order to have life! 41 "I don't collect praise from men, 42 but I do know you people -- I know that you have no love for God in you!

Because they think that eternal life is to walk out perfectly the Torah given Moshe. They refuse to leave the physical and enter the Spiritual kingdom of God.


45 "But don't think that it is I who will be your accuser before the Father. Do you know who will accuse you? Moshe, the very one you have counted on! 46 For if you really believed Moshe, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. 47 But if you don't believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

Moshe wrote all about the coming of the Kingdom, the coming of Yeshua. His given Torah was a shadow and representation of this very thing.

The light has come, but many seem to be running for the shadows.


Heb 10:1 For the Torah has in it a shadow of the good things to come, but not the actual manifestation of the originals. Therefore, it can never, by means of the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, bring to the goal those who approach the Holy Place to offer them.


Isa 60:1 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=isa+60:1&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - "Arise, shine [Yerushalayim], for your light has come, the glory of ADONAI has risen over you.
Joh 3:19 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joh+3:19&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - "Now this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness rather than the light. Why? Because their actions were wicked.
2Co 4:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2co+4:4&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - They do not come to trust because the god of the 'olam hazeh has blinded their minds, in order to prevent them from seeing the light shining from the Good News about the glory of the Messiah, who is the image of God.

Good news indeed, 'the' light has come. Arise and shine!!! A new day has dawned, paths are being laid in the desert, and the wasteland is being flooded with the Spirit of God!!!

WHEN did this happen before? How is this not a new thing?

[aleph-bet]

Gentiles have always been saved the same way as Jews - by faith. By faith Abraham was saved, by faith Moses was saved...

Circumcision/ Torah observance is a response to salvation. We keep Torah (including the command to circumcise) because we are saved.

So a person who isn't circumsized means that they aren't saved? Gosh..I know a few christians who are not circumsized and they think they are saved.
I better go tell them that they aren't.

[visionary]

So a person who isn't circumsized means that they aren't saved? Gosh..I know a few christians who are not circumsized and they think they are saved.
I better go tell them that they aren't.Do you wear a wedding ring if you are married... if you don't does that mean you are not married or if you do does that mean that you are following the all the committments that you made when you made your vows.

Same thing with circumcism...

[Wags]

So a person who isn't circumsized means that they aren't saved? Gosh..I know a few christians who are not circumsized and they think they are saved.
I better go tell them that they aren't.

Oy! :doh: Did you read anything in my post that said you had to be circumcised in order to be saved?

I said that torah observance is a response to being saved. We observe Torah BECAUSE we are saved not in order to be saved.

[Shimshon]

Do you wear a wedding ring if you are married... if you don't does that mean you are not married or if you do does that mean that you are following the all the committments that you made when you made your vows.

Same thing with circumcism...Maybe you should ask Zayit about wedding rings being of pagan origin.

So vis, you too apply the law to yourself? You consider yourself unrighteous and a sinner before God? You have not been filled with holiness from above? You do not house the presence of God that causes you to appear righteous in the sight of Abba? (I don't expect an answer, just you to think.)

Cirumcision is the covenantial sign of the covenant made though Avraham and carried into the covenant made with Moshe. It is NOT carried into the covenant made with Yeshua.

Our sign to the world that we are set apart and holy to our Lord is the Spirit given us. IT is our light and our witness to the world. HE speaks to us and lives through us and is the sign that we are married, or "in Union" with Moshiach. Not Circumcision.



Basicly your saying that when you become saved by Yeshua you walk in the ways of the covenant given Moshe. IT has never been transformed. Well that is not the message the Lord gave. Nor his talmidim.

If after one is saved the sign of this salvation is obedience to the covenant made with Moshe, then those who do not observe the covenant made through Moshe and refuse to see the importance to walk in it are not saved....i.e. everybody but Messianic 'Torah observant' Jews.....

If becoming saved means to walk in the ways of Moshe. Then Christians must not be saved because they refuse to walk in them? They only SAY they 'love' God but they never really knew him and his ways....right?

This is the exact way certain posters here have spoken about Christians.


'you will know them by the love they have for one another'.

Not you will know them by the way they observe the Torah of Moshe.....

And it is impossible to show love without the Spirit.

Forgive them Father for they know not what they do......

this is sad

[Wags]

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?'
23 Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'

[Sephania]

My opinion only, I think Yeshua was speaking of people like Simon ( Acts 8:9-)who only use the L-RD for what fame they can get from working miracles. He believed the message but wanted what it gave him in glory instead of G-d.

Those having the form of godliness, but denying the power therof.............

[Elisheva413]

Romans 3:31 "Do we nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
And then the entire book of James, in my opinion should be high on the list for those who do not think following Torah is important for the new believer. He is renewing our mind, stripping us of our old Hellenized thinking and giving us a spirit that will understand that Torah is His guide for our lives, for all our lives, no matter your birth origin. It is how we define what sin is, otherwise everyone is running around deciding what sin is by "what they are led by the Spirit" by. Growing in Torah is growing to become more like Yeshua, He came and showed us how to properly live out Torah, in the Spirit, not by manmade Rabbinical laws, but stripping it back to what it was meant to be. It is not too far for us to reach, it is right here, with us...and He is revealing it to His children more each day. In my humble opinion, if you what the Apostolic writings say, cannot be verified through Torah, then we are understanding it incorrectly. Torah is our glasses through which we should view this world and how to be talmidim.
Shalom,

[Shimshon]

Luke 13:34 "Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! 35 Look! God is abandoning your house to you!



Mark 13:1-4
1 As Yeshua came out of the Temple, one of the talmidim said to him, "Look, Rabbi! What huge stones! What magnificent buildings!" 2 "You see all these great buildings?" Yeshua said to him, "They will be totally destroyed -- not a single stone will be left standing!"


John 4:20 "Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that the place where one has to worship is in Yerushalayim." 21 Yeshua said, "Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim.


John 6:27 Don't work for the food which passes away but for the food that stays on into eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For this is the one on whom God the Father has put his seal."

28 So they said to him, "What should we do in order to perform the works of God?"


29 Yeshua answered, "Here's what the work of God is: to trust in the one he sent!"

30 They said to him, "Nu, what miracle will you do for us, so that we may see it and trust you? What work can you perform? 31 Our fathers ate man in the desert -- as it says in the Tanakh, `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'

They wanted him to perform a Mitzvah, a sign, a miracle. They wanted more ‘instructions’ to see so they may trust his Words (Spirit) that he was speaking to them.


32 Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! I tell you it wasn't Moshe who gave you the bread from heaven. But my Father is giving you the genuine bread from heaven; 33 for God's bread is the one who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world."

The genuine bread? You mean what was given to our Fathers at Sinai in the desert was not ‘genuine’? They didn’t even understand it was not Moshe who gave them manna but God himself. And Yeshua says this ‘miracle, this mitzvah, this sign was not genuine.


34 They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread from now on." 35 Yeshua answered, "I am the bread which is life! Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever trusts in me will never be thirsty. 36 I told you that you have seen but still don't trust.

He said that he was the presence of God in the flesh, and this was the work and will of God and that those who believe in this will be feed and never hunger again. Those who come and trust receive the bread of life.



37 Everyone the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will certainly not turn away. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of the One who sent me.

39 And this is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose any of all those he has given me but should raise them up on the Last Day. 40 Yes, this is the will of my Father: that all who see the Son and trust in him should have eternal life, and that I should raise them up on the Last Day." 41 At this the Judeans began grumbling about him because he said, "I am the bread which has come down from heaven."

All who see, all who trust……….must obey the law given Moshe?

No, all who see and believe will be raised in the last days.

So, what is ‘coming’ to the Lord? What is ‘trusting’? What is being raised? Is this our Mosaic observances?


42 They said, "Isn't this Yeshua Ben-Yosef? We know his father and mother! How can he now say, `I have come down from heaven'?"


43 Yeshua answered them, "Stop grumbling to each other! 44 No one can come to me unless the Father -- the One who sent me -- draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, `They will all be taught by ADONAI.'e Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Well there you have it. Remember the Covenant in Jer 31? In the last days, which we all know are now, we will ALL be taught by…….’teachers and prophets and levi’im within the Temple as it was given to Moshe? No, by God himself. EVERYONE who hears, learns from God how to come to him. Not from Moshe!!!!! God himself is in us and teaching us how to walk in his ways OUTSIDE of the Land and without physical rituals. We are Torah to the nations. Everything within the law given to Moshe to the nation of Yisrael is fulfilled in our being. Because Yeshua lives in us and through us. We are in union with him. Meaning, MARRIED!! Our sign of our covenant is the Spirit he gave us that we wear as a spotless gown of righteousness. And since His righteousness fills our beings, the law is not for us. In this way:


1 tim 1:9 We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching 11 that accords with the Good News of the glorious and blessed God. This Good News was entrusted to me;

This accords with the good news!!! That we are free from sin because of the work Yeshua did as our suffering servant. Because of this he lives in us and has married us as a bride. We ARE walking in his ways when we remain in union with our groom.


He has given Torah. He has sent us to the nations where there are no “Mosaic observances” and made us living Torah to the nations. This is not acted out in the rituals of the ingenuine shadows of the law given Moshe that was only for sinners. It is living out in righteousness given us by the Ruach HaKodesh.

Our seal.


John 6:27 Don't work for the food which passes away but for the food that stays on into eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For this is the one on whom God the Father has put his seal."


19 Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age."


Everything commanded does not mean all the laws given Moshe. It means all the instructions he gave to his talmidim to give to the world.

If you understand so well the way Torah differentiates between certain people and certain places, why can’t you realize the way Torah distinguishes between that which applied to the nation of Yisrael under the covenant made through Moshe and the way it is applied through us today through Messiah?


And for the record, did you see that? I believe Torah is applied to us today. Just not the way people here proclaim it. I would never tell people that once your saved you must become Jewish, observant to the Torah given Moshe, or you do not love God and are really not saved.

You who place yourselves under the law of Moshe, do you not know it is this very thing that will be your accuser?

We who are in union with Moshiach have received his righteousness and walk in his ways ‘naturally’. Because His Spirit is living in us. This IS the given Torah. You are born again with the Spirit of holiness, go into all the world and proclaim the kingdom of God. Prove it through signs and wonders of the Spirit. Because Torah is of the Spirit. Not of flesh and blood or eating and drinking….He desires mercy, not sacrifice.

Who has believed the report?

[Shimshon]

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?'
23 Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'



John 15:9-17 9 "Just as my Father has loved me, I too have loved you; so stay in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will stay in my love -- just as I have kept my Father's commands and stay in his love. 11 I have said this to you so that my joy may be in you, and your joy be complete. 12 "This is my command: that you keep on loving each other just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than a person who lays down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do what I command you. 15 I no longer call you slaves, because a slave doesn't know what his master is about; but I have called you friends, because everything I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, I chose you; and I have commissioned you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last; so that whatever you ask from the Father in my name he may give you.17 This is what I command you: keep loving each other!


Mt 5:43 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+5:43&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - "You have heard that our fathers were told, `Love your neighbors -- and hate your enemy.'
Mt 5:44 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+5:44&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - But I tell you, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!
Mt 5:46 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+5:46&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - What reward do you get if you love only those who love you? Why, even tax-collectors do that!
Mt 6:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:5&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and on street corners, so that people can see them. Yes! I tell you, they have their reward already!
Mt 6:24 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:24&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - one can be slave to two masters; for he will either hate the first and love the second, or scorn the second and be loyal to the first. You can't be a slave to both God and money.
8 Don't owe anyone anything - except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow human being has fulfilled Torah. 9 For the commandments, "Don't commit adultery," "Don't murder," "Don't steal," "Don't covet,"g and any others are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."h 10 Love does not do harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fullness of Torah.

1Co 16:14 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+16:14&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Let everything you do be done in love.

Love is the fulness of Torah......... The command of God, to believe in the One whom He sent and all his words........And this is his command and his Word....LOVE ....Love God and everyone else. By this the world will know Him, and that you are united with him.


Not by observance to a broken covenant. This is insane. It's like a widow claiming union with her husband. They broke the covenant and he killed himself. But they still want the authority as if they are still married to him.

He is reborn and married to the remnant of Yisrael. And the widow, the sinful kingdom wants to still be married to her groom, her king. But they refuse to listen to him...STILL!!! These are the ones who will be rejected. Those with an apperance of righteousness (works of Torah) but are void of any 'love' for God or others.

Because they reject the witness given by notain hatorah. They have not believed the report. They have made it out to be a lie....saying that it really means being bound to an earthly kingdom. When the kingdom of God is at hand and within those who have 'FAITH' and believe the words (spirit) spoken by the giver of Torah himself.

[visionary]

1 Tim 1:9 We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching 11 that accords with the Good News of the glorious and blessed God. This Good News was entrusted to me;

=============================



This accords with the good news!!! That we are free from sin because of the work Yeshua did as our suffering servant. Because of this he lives in us and has married us as a bride. We ARE walking in his ways when we remain in union with our groom. We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching ...

what that is saying is that the Torah is what convicts a person of sin, whether the Torah observer, or the sinner.

It just is that the Torah observer has less sin on their conscience because of their observance, watcing their tongue, watching their actions, watching their behavior, honoring God and their fellowman, they do not in all good conscience commit sins against the Word of God. By grace if they slip up, they know that the Lord has provide mercy and forgiveness, and washes the sin from them, so that they are free to continue their walk with the Lord.


Those who do not watch their tongue, the actions, their behavior to keep in a manner pleasing to the Lord find the Laws of God condemning them, and rebel.

That is what that verse is saying.

[Shimshon]

It just is that the Torah observer has less sin on their conscience because of their observance,

Less sin because of your observance? oy

And you wonder why Christians accuse people here of being 'workers of the law' and say we believe our observances cause us to be more righteous than others. YUCK!

Those who do not watch their tongue, the actions, their behavior to keep in a manner pleasing to the Lord find the Laws of God condemning them, and rebel.

That is what that verse is saying.Correct, it is saying that Torah accuses the sinners, but not the righteous.

Which brings up a very important point. That of 'having sin'.

You state all have sin. Yet Yeshua said; All have 'sinned'. Not all sin and can not stop in this life. You seem to be teaching others that you can not attain righteousness in the sight of God in this present age? That we can not be free of sin? And this is your logic in discerning this verse?

None are righteous because all sin and can not be freed of sin in this life?


16 Don't you know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, then, of the one whom you are obeying, you are slaves - whether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to being made righteous? 17 By God's grace, you, who were once slaves to sin, obeyed from your heart the pattern of teaching to which you were exposed; 18 and after you had been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. 19 (I am using popular language because your human nature is so weak.) For just as you used to offer your various parts as slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led to more lawlessness; so now offer your various parts as slaves to righteousness, which leads to being made holy, set apart for God. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relationship to righteousness; 21 but what benefit did you derive from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end result of those things was death. 22 However, now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you do get the benefit - it consists in being made holy, set apart for God, and its end result is eternal life. 23 For what one earns from sin is death; but eternal life is what one receives as a free gift from God, in union with the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.


Free at last free at last I am free at last!! HalleluYah Yeshua!!!!

Free to be a slave to God, be completely holy to the One who birthed me.

This is now, not after the resurrection.


Mt 13:49
So it will be at the close of the age -- the angels will go forth and separate the evil people from among the righteous

At the end of the age there is a separation of evil and righeous people. How did they become righteous before the coming of Yeshua?


1 Thes 3:11 May God our Father and our Lord Yeshua direct our way to you. 12 And as for you, may the Lord make you increase and overflow in love toward each other, indeed, toward everyone, just as we do toward you; 13 so that he may give you the inner strength to be blameless, by reason of your holiness, when you stand before God our Father at the coming of our Lord Yeshua with all his angels.



1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the stake, o so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness

[Tishri1]

except for a small remnant in the earth before us and now I believe this is talking about the Millenium Reign of Yeshua....

Jeremiah 31:1 - 32:1 NAS Jeremiah 31:1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people." 2 Thus says the LORD, "The people who survived the sword Found grace in the wilderness-- Israel, when it went to find its rest." 3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness. 4 "Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel! Again you shall take up your tambourines, And go forth to the dances of the merrymakers. 5 "Again you shall plant vineyards On the hills of Samaria; The planters shall plant And shall enjoy them. 6 "For there shall be a day when watchmen On the hills of Ephraim shall call out, 'Arise, and let us go up to Zion, To the LORD our God.'" 7 For thus says the LORD, "Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chiefs of the nations; Proclaim, give praise, and say, 'O LORD, save Thy people, The remnant of Israel.' 8 "Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, Among them the blind and the lame, The woman with child and she who is in labor with child, together; A great company, they shall return here. 9 "With weeping they shall come, And by supplication I will lead them; I will make them walk by streams of waters, On a straight path in which they shall not stumble; For I am a father to Israel, And Ephraim is My first-born." 10 Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock." 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, And redeemed him from the hand of him who was stronger than he. 12 "And they shall come and shout for joy on the height of Zion, And they shall be radiant over the bounty of the LORD-- Over the grain, and the new wine, and the oil, And over the young of the flock and the herd; And their life shall be like a watered garden, And they shall never languish again. 13 "Then the virgin shall rejoice in the dance, And the young men and the old, together, For I will turn their mourning into joy, And will comfort them, and give them joy for their sorrow. 14 "And I will fill the soul of the priests with abundance, And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness," declares the LORD. 15 Thus says the LORD, "A voice is heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; She refuses to be comforted for her children, Because they are no more." 16 Thus says the LORD, "Restrain your voice from weeping, And your eyes from tears; For your work shall be rewarded," declares the LORD, "And they shall return from the land of the enemy. 17 "And there is hope for your future," declares the LORD, "And your children shall return to their own territory. 18 "I have surely heard Ephraim grieving, 'Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, Like an untrained calf; Bring me back that I may be restored, For Thou art the LORD my God. 19 'For after I turned back, I repented; And after I was instructed, I smote on my thigh; I was ashamed, and also humiliated, Because I bore the reproach of my youth.' 20 "Is Ephraim My dear son? Is he a delightful child? Indeed, as often as I have spoken against him, I certainly still remember him; Therefore My heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him," declares the LORD. 21 "Set up for yourself roadmarks, Place for yourself guideposts; Direct your mind to the highway, The way by which you went. Return, O virgin of Israel, Return to these your cities. 22 "How long will you go here and there, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth-- A woman will encompass a man." 23 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Once again they will speak this word in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I restore their fortunes, 'The LORD bless you, O abode of righteousness, O holy hill!' 24 "And Judah and all its cities will dwell together in it, the farmer and they who go about with flocks. 25 "For I satisfy the weary ones and refresh everyone who languishes." 26 At this I awoke and looked, and my sleep was pleasant to me. 27 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. 28 "And it will come about that as I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy, and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD. 29 "In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' 30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge. 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day, And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also shall cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city shall be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "And the measuring line shall go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, or overthrown anymore forever."

this hasn't all happened yet so we have alot to look forward to......

[Tishri1]

So a person who isn't circumsized means that they aren't saved? Gosh..I know a few christians who are not circumsized and they think they are saved.
I better go tell them that they aren't.that has never been said in all the time I've been here and in all the years I've been Messianic.... you must have misunderstood:sigh:

[Tishri1]

Do you wear a wedding ring if you are married... if you don't does that mean you are not married or if you do does that mean that you are following the all the committments that you made when you made your vows.

Same thing with circumcism...You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to visionary again.:clap:

[Tishri1]

Shimshon I believe you when I hear you because I have seen how observant you are! I understand by what I see in you but I must say that I was confused before I saw with my own eyes what a lovely person you and Mrs Shimmy are:groupray:...I believe that may happen here at times too...maybe it would be nice to hear from you what it is like to experience life in the newness of life....for example tell us what a Sabbath is like for you, what do you do, what dont you do, and why. That way we can get to understand your words in a practicle way:clap:

PS This is really a great lesson in the difference between the Jew and the Messianic / Believer in Yeshua...:pray:I hope He replys so we can get to see the whole picture

[visionary]

Shimshon.. you defend the correct position so hard that people can get the wrong impression, like you do not live and believe the way you do, and that you are believing and acting more christian because you say...

It just is that the Torah observer has less sin on their conscience because of their observance,

Less sin because of your observance? oy

And you wonder why Christians accuse people here of being 'workers of the law' and say we believe our observances cause us to be more righteous than others. YUCK!If that isn't freedom from sin,... think of it this way, if we are so into following the law right down to every thought cleansed from all unrighteousness, then when do we have time to sin. Do we do it in our own strength... not a chance, we those who are living in Yeshua know, it is impossible without Him.