Sugar!

[gtsecc]

The so called Sugar of Catholicism


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAD9Ag8VFedtTPwMidA6si8AGlAbTkod!GDI6tFjDfIQ2fPD8LuaZ1eWct5QpYewXgLpmjoGw6nBz7Pcl5HdgI2nr71rbZBIk1kG8aMKAflGAAAAynJlAg/DSCF0004.JPG?dc=4675468609485748424

[gtsecc]

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68995&d=1143829427

[Fish and Bread]

My computer is in 16 color mode and doesn't really do jpgs (picture files) very well. It looks vaguely like a Tridentine latin mass when I squint at it, though. Is that what it actually is? And, if so, how does it related to sugar?

[gtsecc]

The term Anglo-Catholics affectionately call this sort of stuff the Sugar, implying it isn't the essence of the faith, but it does sweeten it.

[Colabomb]

I like the Sugar. However I think a quiet low church mass from the 1928 BCP is sweeter. :)

[EvAnglican]

The term Anglo-Catholics affectionately call this sort of stuff the Sugar, implying it isn't the essence of the faith, but it does sweeten it.

Why does your Anglo Catholic faith need to be sweetened?

[gtsecc]

Why does your Anglo Catholic faith need to be sweetened?
The faith is sweet.
How much of it would you pour out in a vain attempt to remove the sugar? ;)

[Lilium]

Sweeeeeet :liturgy:

[higgs2]

Lovely!

Although it really bothers me to have their backs to me during the Eucharist.

[gtsecc]

Lovely!

Although it really bothers me to have their backs to me during the Eucharist.

They are praying in the same direction as you.

[higgs2]

They are praying in the same direction as you.

True.

[SirTimothy]

If/When I become a priest I think I would do some things (the preparation of the elements and the "Blessed are you Lord God of all creation..." and maybe the Sanctus) praying pro Deum and the Rest of the Eucharistic prayer pro populous.

Timothy

[Colabomb]

They are praying in the same direction as you.
That's how the REC does it.

[gtsecc]

Everyone does this, Rome ought to heed our Truth, and undo the NO.

[gtsecc]

In fact, i am nto even sure the NO allows the West facign Mass....where are the East facing OBOBer to clarify this?

[higgs2]

Everyone does this, Rome ought to heed our Truth, and undo the NO.
Really? Not in any Episcopal Church I've ever been in.

[Colabomb]

In fact, i am nto even sure the NO allows the West facign Mass....where are the East facing OBOBer to clarify this?
As higgs pointed out, most Episcopal Churches face the congregation.

It doesn't bother me either way, it is an issue of style and taste, not doctrine.

[SirTimothy]

Really? Not in any Episcopal Church I've ever been in.

Nor me. I think it's quite a nice idea though. I just don't like the idea of the Sursum Corda being said away from the Congregation. I think the Celebrant should be facing the congregation, arms in the 'orans' position. :)

[AngCath]

As higgs pointed out, most Episcopal Churches face the congregation.

It doesn't bother me either way, it is an issue of style and taste, not doctrine.

I've attended Eucharist with both styles and I prefer the priest facing us with Rite II, but back to us with Rite I. As has been said, its a matter of taste, NOT doctrine.

[gtsecc]

It doesn't bother me either way, it is an issue of style and taste, not doctrine.

On the contrary, those facing East will tell you there is a theological reason for this. Now, they may be wrong, but all I want to do is point out that it isn't style.

[Colabomb]

On the contrary, those facing East will tell you there is a theological reason for this. Now, they may be wrong, but all I want to do is point out that it isn't style.
They may believe it is an issue of doctrine.... but they are wrong.

I personally prefer to face east myself. But it is stupid to claim that it is wrong to do otherwise.

[Bonifatius]

On the contrary, those facing East will tell you there is a theological reason for this. Now, they may be wrong, but all I want to do is point out that it isn't style.

Both ways of celebrating mass have theological significance, so in the end it comes down to "style" or even "taste" which one you prefer.

;)

[Bonifatius]

The so called Sugar of Catholicism


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAD9Ag8VFedtTPwMidA6si8AGlAbTkod!GDI6tFjDfIQ2fPD8LuaZ1eWct5QpYewXgLpmjoGw6nBz7Pcl5HdgI2nr71rbZBIk1kG8aMKAflGAAAAynJlAg/DSCF0004.JPG?dc=4675468609485748424

Please, kindly tell me: Why are these priests queuing in front of the altar??? Are they British?

:P

[gtsecc]

They may believe it is an issue of doctrine.... but they are wrong.

I personally prefer to face east myself. But it is stupid to claim that it is wrong to do otherwise.
Read Shape of the Liturgy and get back to me on this

[Torah613]

On the contrary, those facing East will tell you there is a theological reason for this. Now, they may be wrong, but all I want to do is point out that it isn't style.

Ahem, there is just as strong a theological basis for facing West as well. One thing EWTN is good for, is getting people who will theolize enough to get away with anything. ;)

Personally, I prefer that if it is a traditional service (rite I or Tridentine) that it be facing east, while with the NO and the Rite II facing west. I say this as the two services, while expressing the same faith, come from two different theological traditions which are reinforced by the position of the priest I described above.

BTW Sweet Pics!

Joe Zollars

[gtsecc]

I never said there was not a theological reason for facign West also, I just said it was a matter of taste or style.

[artrx]

That is a beautiful church! Where is it?
I can just imagine a powerful sung/chanted compline service there.

[gtsecc]

St. Bart's Brighton

[Torah613]

well, in my opinion it can be seen in two ways. I would prefer to say it as I did above.

However, the theological backings of both positions is equally valid and equally rooted in tradition. So in many ways it can come down to a sense of taste, style, or location. For instance in a location where the chapel is rather shall we say petite, the altar would have to be against the wall etc.

Joe Zollars

[gtsecc]

Here is a picture of an evangelical parish for comparison:

http://desertpastor.typepad.com/paradoxology/images/kennethbenny3.jpg (http://desertpastor.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/kennethbenny3.jpg)

Hee hee.. I keed I keeed.
Maybe this is a strawman.

[Torah613]

What scares me most is that man was actually Orthodox at one time. I simply cannot believe it.

Joe Zollars

[gtsecc]

What scares me most is that man was actually Orthodox at one time. I simply cannot believe it.

Joe Zollars


Yeah, but only nominally -so, I don't take it as a reflection of the faith. I used to date a really wonderful woman, who was into that stuff, but if she came to my parish and heard the Angelus, she would plug her ears and "pray in tongues." So much for the gift of discernment.

[artrx]

Yeah, but only nominally -so, I don't take it as a reflection of the faith. I used to date a really wonderful woman, who was into that stuff, but if she came to my parish and heard the Angelus, she would plug her ears and "pray in tongues." So much for the gift of discernment.

:eek: , :sigh:

[higgs2]

Here is a picture of an evangelical parish for comparison:

http://desertpastor.typepad.com/paradoxology/images/kennethbenny3.jpg (http://desertpastor.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/kennethbenny3.jpg)

Hee hee.. I keed I keeed.
Maybe this is a strawman.

^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ My kids are wondering why I am sitting here cracking up!

[gtsecc]

I can't find any good picture of Evangelical Parishes.
Does anyone have some?

[higgs2]

I can't find any good picture of Evangelical Parishes.
Does anyone have some?

Please, someone help him, he needs to redeem himself after the last picture :P

[Lilium]

This is the evangelical church near me...

[pmcleanj]

Really? Not in any Episcopal Church I've ever been in.
In fact, I've heard it argued that the oldest documented Anglican tradition is a North-facing consecration.

[EvAnglican]

Please could someone explain the significance of all these compass points?

[Fish and Bread]

In fact, i am nto even sure the NO allows the West facign Mass.

Well, firstly, it should be clarified that there are now some newer RCC churches that were built without regard to altar placement, so one can't count on facing a certain way if one faces the altar and so forth anymore. At least, that's the rumor I heard (Okay, rumors aren't a very reliable source, but at least I tried! :)).

In regard to whether the people face the people or not: I have heard that the missal of 1970 (Novus Ordo) specifies that the priest must face the people at four specified moments in the mass. For the rest of the mass, it is technically left open as to whether they face the tabernacle or the people, with no direction specified aside from those four instances. In practice, priests tend to face the people the whole time, but this is not prescribed explicitly by the ruberics of the mass, just by custom, serminary training, and the preference of most bishops (who get to tell the parish priests what to do). :) There are a few parishes in the US that hold Novus Ordo masses with the priest facing away from the people except at the specified four times, but they're very hard to find. EWTN tried to do this with their televised masses years ago and their bishop instructed them to knock it off. :)

[pmcleanj]

Please could someone explain the significance of all these compass points?
In liturgical discussion, "Ecclesiastical East" is toward the sanctuary/chancel/Table when you are standing in the Nave. In the majority of churches, that's also geographical east, but even if the church has an untraditional orientation that will be referred to as "east" when discussing the liturgy.

So, an east-facing consecration is one where the Priest consecrates the elements with his back to the congregation, facing the back wall of the sanctuary. The Table may be pushed against the wall.

A west-facing consecration -- by far the most common in the last century, at least -- is one where the Priest consecrates the elements with his back to the sanctuary wall, and with the Table between him and the congregation.

A north-facing consecration means he celebrates at the "end" of the table, with his right shoulder pointing at the sanctuary wall and his left shoulder pointing at the congregation (except in this tradition, the orientation and placement of the altar was also different, I'm told).

[EvAnglican]

Thanks for this explanation.

Why would the minister turn his back on the congregation...it seems a rather rude?

[Naomi4Christ]

In liturgical discussion, "Ecclesiastical East" is toward the sanctuary/chancel/Table when you are standing in the Nave. In the majority of churches, that's also geographical east, but even if the church has an untraditional orientation that will be referred to as "east" when discussing the liturgy.

So, an east-facing consecration is one where the Priest consecrates the elements with his back to the congregation, facing the back wall of the sanctuary. The Table may be pushed against the wall.

A west-facing consecration -- by far the most common in the last century, at least -- is one where the Priest consecrates the elements with his back to the sanctuary wall, and with the Table between him and the congregation.

A north-facing consecration means he celebrates at the "end" of the table, with his right shoulder pointing at the sanctuary wall and his left shoulder pointing at the congregation (except in this tradition, the orientation and placement of the altar was also different, I'm told).

Thanks for that, Pamela. I just looked up a map to see which way our church lies (these windy roads and rivers make everything so confusing here).

Our altar is indeed on the east wall of the church. When the altar was used (it is now covered up), the vicar used to stand on the north side of it, facing south, with his left arm against the wall and his right arm towards the congregation.

Since our liturgical reordering, we have a communion table in the middle of the chancel and he stands behind it, with his back to the east wall and facing the congregation.

I am very glad that our church was built with the correct orientation. I think it would be all too much for us to have to deal with a liturgical east that was different to the true east, given that we have difficulties as to what is the back and what is the front of church.

[Bonifatius]

In fact, I've heard it argued that the oldest documented Anglican tradition is a North-facing consecration.

Hi Pam,

so we've made our way round the altar then. North facing in th earliest days, East facing during the middle ages, South facing (i.e. North end celebration) in Prayer Book Times, East facing after the Oxford movement and West facing since mid 20th century then. :thumbsup:

Was North facing a celtic tradition??

[ContraMundum]

I'd rather have a mass at home with friends and family than the whole expensive, showy and regimented bells and smells fest.

Interesting truth out of the mouth of babes. A former evangelical friend of mine (non-Anglican) turned up to mass at our church one day and when the liturgy started his kids said "Where's the puppets?". Apparently the kids used to attend a local theatre group who had regular puppet shows and the people would dress up in robes and move around a puppet stage that is slightly reminiscent of an altar. They assumed they were about to be entertained with another show. They relayed the story to me after mass and I replied "Out of the mouth of babes..."

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Most Episcopal churches in my area face God, and I'm pretty sure this isn't just an Anglo Catholic thing. This is the Southern Protestant Bible Belt.

[Bonifatius]

Most Episcopal churches in my area face God, and I'm pretty sure this isn't just an Anglo Catholic thing. This is the Southern Protestant Bible Belt.

I actually do not like the expression "facing God" at all, I prefer "versus orientem" or simply East facing. "Facing God" seems to imply that priests who celebrate "versus populum" turn their back to God. God is not just on one side of the church building, isn't it? Maybe it is not meant in that way, but it sounds polemical to me.

Best
Boni

[Naomi4Christ]

I'd rather have a mass at home with friends and family than the whole expensive, showy and regimented bells and smells fest.

Interesting truth out of the mouth of babes. A former evangelical friend of mine (non-Anglican) turned up to mass at our church one day and when the liturgy started his kids said "Where's the puppets?". Apparently the kids used to attend a local theatre group who had regular puppet shows and the people would dress up in robes and move around a puppet stage that is slightly reminiscent of an altar. They assumed they were about to be entertained with another show. They relayed the story to me after mass and I replied "Out of the mouth of babes..."

Hmmm... we have puppets rather too often at our church. :D

[Naomi4Christ]

Most Episcopal churches in my area face God, and I'm pretty sure this isn't just an Anglo Catholic thing. This is the Southern Protestant Bible Belt.

What do you mean by 'face god' ?

[SirTimothy]

He's literally translating Pro Deum. Pro deum is with your back to the congregation, Pro populous, or to the People, is behind the table, facing the congregation.

[Naomi4Christ]

Bit presumptious to know where God is...

[Andy Broadley]

One lump or two.....

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Haha! No offense intended, I certainly didn't presume to imply a priest facing the People of God was in essence turning his back on God.

Rather, East is generally seen as the direction from which the Messiah comes, so facing that direction implies the priest and people together "face God". With some freestanding altars, the priest faces the people and East. So is facing God and the people, so to speak.

I think also, where the Sacrament is reserved in a tabernacle, the tabernacle is usually on or beside the altar, in which case the priest would literally be facing God. It's all very interesting really. I prefer the altar against the eastern wall myself, but am comfortable with parishes where that is not so.

Naomi, you mentioned your church's altar is covered, is it used on holidays like Christmas and Easter, or does it remain unused?

[Tetzel]

My pastors face East. Most pastors i've seen face West. I can think of a couple of practical reasons for facing East: 1) don't have to look at the people (helps if you're shy) 2) The people can't tell if you look down at notes. I also like that when facing East, it seems like the pastor is leading us in prayer to God rather than lecturing us with the prayer.

[Tetzel]

My pastors face East. Most pastors i've seen face West. I can think of a couple of practical reasons for facing East: 1) don't have to look at the people (helps if you're shy) 2) The people can't tell if you look down at notes. I also like that when facing East, it seems like the pastor is leading us in prayer to God rather than lecturing us with the prayer.

[Naomi4Christ]

Naomi, you mentioned your church's altar is covered, is it used on holidays like Christmas and Easter, or does it remain unused?

We don't use it at all. We wanted to remove it completely from the church, but various heritage bodies wouldn't let us. Therefore it is permanently covered in a white cloth.

We use a wooden table for The Lord's Supper which we can push to the back of the chancel when we are not using it giving us a more flexible space.

[SirTimothy]

Two things cannot be removed from most churches, the altar and the pews. I know one church who built bookcases out of the pews--they didn't leave the church, they just looked... ahem... different. :)

Timothy

[Naomi4Christ]

Two things cannot be removed from most churches, the altar and the pews. I know one church who built bookcases out of the pews--they didn't leave the church, they just looked... ahem... different. :)

Timothy

Our pews have been removed - they are now scattered around the parish in folks' houses. Lots of churches have had their pews removed in recent years.

[karen freeinchristman]

Our pews have been removed - they are now scattered around the parish in folks' houses. Lots of churches have had their pews removed in recent years.

Our pews were removed about 15 years ago!

[DeoJuvante]

Why would you remove the altar and/or pews from a church? :confused: Removing the altar sounds like desecration, removing the pews sounds uncomfortable.

[karen freeinchristman]

Why would you remove the altar and/or pews from a church? :confused: Removing the altar sounds like desecration, removing the pews sounds uncomfortable.

The pews were removed from our church because the church decided it wanted to sell its hall, which was located too far from the church (about 3 'blocks' away) and it needed too many repairs to make restoration feasible; to enable the church building to become a more flexible space, they removed the pews and replaced them with chairs (padded). The chairs can be fully removed, making a large open space, and the chairs themselves are comfortable, and make the church feel warmer, as they are a nice light wood color (beech, I think), instead of very dark oak (the pews).

Quite a few people at the time protested the removal of the pews by moving church!

We now could really use a proper church hall, and we are looking at ways of building one on-site, as we now have enough money to do so.

[SirTimothy]

Our pews have been removed - they are now scattered around the parish in folks' houses. Lots of churches have had their pews removed in recent years.

Bizarre. The church I know of was quite forcibly told they were part of the diocesan owned property and thus couldn't be removed.

Timothy

[karen freeinchristman]

I have a feeling that there will be big changes happening in terms of buildings in the C of E in future. The costs of maintaining these huge historical monuments are just too great for a congregation to have to support. We shouldn't be spending so much money on buildings! :preach:

The organ restoration at my home church is going to cost about £50,000! I think it is a waste.

[DeoJuvante]

The pews were removed from our church because the church decided it wanted to sell its hall, which was located too far from the church (about 3 'blocks' away) and it needed too many repairs to make restoration feasible; to enable the church building to become a more flexible space, they removed the pews and replaced them with chairs (padded). The chairs can be fully removed, making a large open space, and the chairs themselves are comfortable, and make the church feel warmer, as they are a nice light wood color (beech, I think), instead of very dark oak (the pews).

Quite a few people at the time protested the removal of the pews by moving church!

We now could really use a proper church hall, and we are looking at ways of building one on-site, as we now have enough money to do so.

Oh, I get it... you would put chairs in. :blush: That would be a pain when kneeling but I suppose that would only matter in churches of a certain bent ;)

[karen freeinchristman]

Oh, I get it... you would put chairs in. :blush:

:doh:




That would be a pain when kneeling but I suppose that would only matter in churches of a certain bent ;)

We do have kneeler cushions under each chair, so people can (and some do) kneel if they wish.

[Ebor]

I had not come across the idea of calling what looks to me like more formal/decorated worship "sugar".

Human beings, not being carbon copies, have individual tastes and ideas of how to do things.

Ebor

[Bonifatius]

Oh, I get it... you would put chairs in. :blush: That would be a pain when kneeling ...

Why?? My local parish church has old pews but they are very uncomfortable for kneeling. The other church in central London I regularly attend has chairs but they are very comfortable for sitting as well as for kneeling! Both churches are high up the candle ...

[Bonifatius]

I have a feeling that there will be big changes happening in terms of buildings in the C of E in future. The costs of maintaining these huge historical monuments are just too great for a congregation to have to support. We shouldn't be spending so much money on buildings!

I've recently been up to Scotland and I must say I've never seen so many disused church buildings before. Practically every other church building I saw in Edinburgh seems now to be a restaurant or health club or museum. It is very sad, but of course I agree with you that it is too expensive to keep all these buildings. I think we should spend money on buildings though as long as there is a worshipping congregation.

The organ restoration at my home church is going to cost about £50,000! I think it is a waste.

Depends whether there are organists who can make good use of the instrument and a worshipping congregation that uses it.

[Naomi4Christ]

I've recently been up to Scotland and I must say I've never seen so many disused church buildings before. Practically every other church building I saw in Edinburgh seems now to be a restaurant or health club or museum. It is very sad, but of course I agree with you that it is too expensive to keep all these buildings. I think we should spend money on buildings though as long as there is a worshipping congregation.



Edinburgh is my home town, and you are right that many of the churches have now been put to secular use.

I don't know how sad it is. At least we can be sure that those which have survived are full of vibrant congregations on fire for Christ (in a dour Scottish way). I'm glad we have passed the era of everyone going to church for appearances' sake, getting confirmed at prep school, etc.

[SirTimothy]

The organ restoration at my home church is going to cost about £50,000! I think it is a waste.

NOOOO! If its a good organ, it's worth preserving.

Timothy (Thus speaketh a rather bad organist who adores good pipe organ music)

[Bonifatius]

I'm glad we have passed the era of everyone going to church for appearances' sake, getting confirmed at prep school, etc.

I can't look into people's heads and I try not to be judgemental. I just prefer a full building to an empty one. ;)

[artrx]

The organ restoration at my home church is going to cost about £50,000! I think it is a waste.
Depends whether there are organists who can make good use of the instrument and a worshipping congregation that uses it.
That's true of the building as well.

[Torah613]

Two things cannot be removed from most churches, the altar and the pews. I know one church who built bookcases out of the pews--they didn't leave the church, they just looked... ahem... different. :)

Timothy

Hmm. I'll have to bring that up at my Ortho church sometime. Sounds like a good use--and with such a multiplicity of liturgical textst he choir is always looking for bookcases. ;)

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

Why would you remove the altar and/or pews from a church? :confused: Removing the altar sounds like desecration, removing the pews sounds uncomfortable.

Ahem. Praying without pews is beyond comfortable for some of us. ;) Besides, its much more penitential and historically accurate to kneel on the bare floor...

Joe Zollars

[SirTimothy]

You have a point about organists, and 50k would buy you a Bechstein Model C, which would be a much more useful instrument as there are lots of pianists around.

Timothy (And I love grand pianos even more than organs...)

[karen freeinchristman]

You have a point about organists, and 50k would buy you a Bechstein Model C, which would be a much more useful instrument as there are lots of pianists around.

Timothy (And I love grand pianos even more than organs...)

I much prefer pianos to organs.

[EvAnglican]

I much prefer pianos to organs.

Me too, even for the traditional hymns.

[karen freeinchristman]

Me too, even for the traditional hymns.

:thumbsup:

[SirTimothy]

Same here, but an organ for Bach's organ music is out of this world... I LOVE real organ music played by professionals. I just hate singing to them. So I loathe seeing the organs ripped out of a church or left disused as I know they're such fantastic instruments. But I do know that a top-flight piano could be brought for the cost of resotration.