The Feminine Aspects of God. . .

[KagomeShuko]

that herchurch still sickens me, that's too much of goddess worship and perhaps idol worship and worship of the self.

However, upon having a great e-mail exchange with Dave Scherer and talking with some others as well as looking at some research, stuff I had forgotten, too, it is interesting to see the feminine aspects of God.

Of course, you canNOT discount the male aspects of God, otherwise you're not worshiping the ONE TRUE GOD.

God is still a nongendered being! All that I've been reading has pointed to that as well.

ruach is feminine. Sophia (wisdom) is feminine.

Abwoon, the word Jesus used in "The Lord's Prayer" really doesn't mean "Father," but is a word that means both father and mother - something like, "creator, life giver, breathe, and giver of light."

It just lands me back to the normal idea I have that God is a nongendered spirit/being. The Great I Am.

It alsmot seems like the spirit/wisdom part of God is the one that is seen as female and then the Father is in heaven. . .yet while they are both in heaven as well.

It's just really interesting to see. I have no claims that God IS female or God IS male - just as usual that God is a nongendered being.

Just thought I'd start a tread here where we can share our thoughts.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Protoevangel]

It is important to remember that God is indeed transcendent of all human limitations, gender included. God is represented in the Bible with both masculine and feminine characteristics. He is compared to a mother hen, a midwife, a seamstress, etc. It is simply that the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother (Isaiah 49:14-15, 66:13; Psalm 131:2-3) and those of a father (Job 31:18; Jer 3:4-20) and husband (Jer 3:6-19)." The feminine imagery focuses on God's parental tenderness to His people. However, the vastly most common image for God is masculine. He is the Bridegroom, we are the bride. He is the Father, and we are His children.

The word used, by Jesus and the authors of the New Testament, that we translate to "Father", however, is indeed a masculine term.
"Pater", Noun Masculine
....1. generator or male ancestor
..........A. either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
..........B. a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
................i. fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
..........C. one advanced in years, a senior
....2. metaph.
..........A. the originator and transmitter of anything
................i. the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
................ii. one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
..........B. one who stands in a father's place and looks after another in a paternal way
..........C. a title of honour
................i. teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received
................ii. the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
....3. God is called the Father
..........A. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
..........B. of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
................i. of spiritual beings and of all men
..........C. of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
..........D. the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
................i. by Jesus Christ himself
................ii. by the apostles
Even in Hebrew, God is called Father. For instance, Isa 63:16 (For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us And Israel does not recognize us. You, O LORD, are our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.)

"ba", Noun Masculine
....1. father of an individual
....2. of God as father of his people
....3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
....4. ancestor
........1. grandfather, forefathers -- of person
........2. of people
....5. originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
....6. of producer, generator (fig.)
....7. of benevolence and protection (fig.)
....8. term of respect and honour
....9. ruler or chief (spec.)

[LutherNut]

I know that this is the ELCA forum, but I would like to offer a correction to a part of your post.

ruach is feminine.

Actually, in Hebrew, ruach is neither masculine nor feminine. In the lexicons it is parsed as "both" and its meaning is dependent on its context. In reference to the Holy Spirit, Scripture always refers to him in the masculine.

Sophia (wisdom) is feminine.

Sophia is a feminine word, but it is never used as a name or a description of the personage of God.

Abwoon, the word Jesus used in "The Lord's Prayer" really doesn't mean "Father," but is a word that means both father and mother - something like, "creator, life giver, breathe, and giver of light."

This, like ruach, is another gender ambiguous word. It's use is also totally dependent on it's context. There are two things to look at here. One is that God the Father is always spoken of in the masculine, using masculine pronouns, adjectives, modifiers, etc., and the other is that the Greek texts of the Scripture use the word Pater, which is clearly masculine. Even if Jesus spoke Aramaic exclusively (which is highly unlikely), those who wrote the texts of Scripture knew that the context was masculine and thus used the masculine Greek word, Pater.

[KagomeShuko]

Interesting. :) Yeah, I've never know of anything except a gender neutral God that I say is My Father. . .or other names presented in the Bible.

www.spiritbride.com is an interesting read, where I learned some stuff, but only presented the things which I remembered from Sunday School.

Pater is Greek? I didn't know that. I knew it was Latin.

[Ethan_Fetch]

How do we know the word "abwoon" was used in the Lord's Prayer and not say "Ab" (Father)?

Pater is both Latin and Greek.

[AngelusSax]

How do we know the word "abwoon" was used in the Lord's Prayer and not say "Ab" (Father)?


If we do know, I'd say it'd be from manuscripts that we still have.

[Ethan_Fetch]

Well.

I'm no expert but I wasn't aware that we had any aramaic or hebrew texts of any of the Gospels.

I know it's usually assumed that Matt. was originally written in Aramaic due to signals in the text indicating that the original language of composition may not have been Greek, but I was under the impression that such a text was unknown.

[AngelusSax]

We don't have the original-original, but we have some pieces of hand-copied manuscripts and such, I thought. Or we used to...

[KagomeShuko]

Yeah, we do. . .

Dead Sea Scrolls (and other info) (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls)

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ctobola]

Yeah, we do. . .

Dead Sea Scrolls (and other info) (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls)

Stein Auf!
Bridget

Aren't the Scrolls only Old Testment?

As I recall (and it's been 20 years or so), Matthew was generally thought to be a Hellenized Jew and the original was written in Koine Greek. If I recall correctly, his Greek indicated higher level of literary skill than Mark's.

-Cloy

[KagomeShuko]

Yeah, the dead sea scrolls are OT. I saw other links on that page, though about biblical archelogoy.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Ethan_Fetch]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we only have Greek manuscripts of the NT. In fact, I'd be willing to bet cash money (I'm not that sure, I just have a gambling habit::kidding::)

I'd love to be proven wrong though.

Bridget, where did you hear/read that the word Jesus used in the Lord's Prayer was "abwoon"?

[Ethan_Fetch]

It would appear that someone named Neil Douglas-Klotz (http://www.abwoon.com/main.html) has popularized an Aramaic translation of the Lord's Prayer.

Unfortunately, it appears to be a translation that he made, not one that he located in any ancient manuscript.

So we don't really know if this is the word Jesus used.

And judging just by the New Age-yness of this guy's stuff, I am inclined to think that he may have made a "creative translational choice".

[KagomeShuko]

The first place I saw abwoon was www.spiritbride.com, but then I did a search at google. . .came up with a lot of the same stuff.

*shrug* God's still a nongendered spirit :)

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Ethan_Fetch]

*shrug* God's still a nongendered spirit

F'shizzle

[AngelusSax]

F'shizzle

M'nizzle

[Ethan_Fetch]

Word

[RedneckAnglican]

M'nizzle

never heard of that one...I have a bessel...it does wonders for my carpet...

[Ethan_Fetch]

This is snoop-dog talk.

Here (http://www.gizoogle.com/index.php) is a website that will translate any website into this language. It also has a "Tranzilator" which will translate any block of text as well.

For example: If Martin Luther had been a G-pimp, he might have said:


Unless i am convicted by scripture n plain reason - i dont accept tha authority of tha popes n councils, fo` they hizzle contradicted each pusha - mah conscience is captive ta tha word of god if you gots a paper stack. i cannot n i will not recant perpetratin' fo` ta go against conscience is neitha riznight nor safe. here i stand. i cannot do otherwise with the gangsta stuff that keeps ya hangin. god hizzle me with the S-N-double-O-P. amen


::WARNING FOR PIETISTS: THE GIZOOGLE SITE AND "TRANZILATOR" MAY YIELD PROFANITY::

[RedneckAnglican]

there's something about this that seems just very wrong...

[Ethan_Fetch]

Yes, I suppose...

Calvinists think it's hysterical!:clap:

[RedneckAnglican]

Yes, I suppose...

Calvinists think it's hysterical!:clap:

well...a Lutherans main position in life is to mess with the Calvinists...so I guess it's ok...

[LutherNut]

If we do know, I'd say it'd be from manuscripts that we still have.

There are no manuscripts of any NT work in Aramaic. It is highly likely, however, that Matthew's Gospel was originally written in Aramaic considering his audience, but there is no concrete proof of this. If Jesus in fact spoke the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic (no concrete proof of that, either) there is no way of knowing what exact word He used. What we do know is that those who were there at that time knew that He was speaking of God the Father. We know this because the Greek texts are clearly masculine through and through.

[AngelusSax]

We know this because the Greek texts are clearly masculine through and through.

Aren't the Greek texts also masculine in who can be saved (all men will be saved if yadda yadda yadda)?

[ctobola]

This is an interesting point of contention with the Roman Catholics. I've frequently heard RC theologians refer to the in the "original Aramaic." Must be translations they did themselves!

They often use this when talking about Mary. One I recently heard said that Mary NEVER had any other children, and the New Testament references to his brothers should be translated as "those he loved like brothers," which would be an appropriate translation of the Aramaic.

Of course, that requires us to throw out the Greek texts we DO have, which refer to Jesus' biological brothers.

-Cloy



There are no manuscripts of any NT work in Aramaic. It is highly likely, however, that Matthew's Gospel was originally written in Aramaic considering his audience, but there is no concrete proof of this. If Jesus in fact spoke the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic (no concrete proof of that, either) there is no way of knowing what exact word He used. What we do know is that those who were there at that time knew that He was speaking of God the Father. We know this because the Greek texts are clearly masculine through and through.

[LutherNut]

Aren't the Greek texts also masculine in who can be saved (all men will be saved if yadda yadda yadda)?

Context! Context! Context!

Once you get that figured out, it all seems to make much more sense... :doh:

[LutherNut]

Of course, that requires us to throw out the Greek texts we DO have, which refer to Jesus' biological brothers.

To be technical, none of the Greek texts "prove" that they were biological brothers, either.

[AngelusSax]

Context! Context! Context!

Once you get that figured out, it all seems to make much more sense... :doh:

That was actually my point, just the other way around. Man was used the way person is now. (I.E. Greek translators MAY HAVE picked "Father" for convenience, rather than for accuracy.)

[Protoevangel]

Of course, that requires us to throw out the Greek texts we DO have, which refer to Jesus' biological brothers.
I suppose you have proof?

[ctobola]

To be technical, none of the Greek texts "prove" that they were biological brothers, either.

You are correct. Adelphos could be translated as cousin, close friend or even someone of the same nationality. But I would argue the only reason to do that in verses like Matthew 13:55...


"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?"

... is to make Scripture fit with an a priori view.

-c

[ctobola]

The more I look at the herchurch.org web site, the more that I think it's weird... but thought-provoking.

The author is obviously pushing us to extend our thinking about God, which is probably good. Our ability to comprehend even a small part of God is so limited -- and our willingness to pigeonhole that which we don't understand is so prevalent -- that trying to shake us up is probably helpful.

Okay, maybe the site takes it too far -- but the focus remains on God. I have much less of a problem with what herchurch.org is doing than I do with the Roman practice of praying to Mary. At least the folks in San Francisco are seeking to better understand God -- and I think God bless those who seek... uh, God. Even if they start from the wrong place.

Mariolotry -- which operates under the color of Christ -- is a far more contemptible practice.

-Cloy

[cableguy]

You are correct. Adelphos could be translated as cousin, close friend or even someone of the same nationality. But I would argue the only reason to do that in verses like Matthew 13:55...


"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?"

... is to make Scripture fit with an a priori view.

-c

Right, but this can still be translated as cousins, or even children from a previous marriage of Joseph. Just like you could say the same for Luke 8:19 and Mark 6:3.

[ctobola]

Right, but this can still be translated as cousins, or even children from a previous marriage of Joseph. Just like you could say the same for Luke 8:19 and Mark 6:3.

No disagreement, and I stated that. But the fact that these folks keep showing up and are consistently called "brothers" of Jesus... and not "cousins" (anepsios) or "followers" indicates that there is something about "brothers" that the other terms do not correctly imply.

As far as Joseph having a previous marriage, there is no Scriptural evidence for that, and the story likely comes from the "History of Joseph the Carpenter," an apocryphal book written in the fifth century by a Coptic cult of Joseph. The concensus among scholars is that this book, along with most of the apocryphal books of the NT, are so sectarian that they have no historical validity -- but they do offer insight into the relgious perspectives of the day.

-Cloy

[KagomeShuko]

Cloy, I wouldn't agree with "Maryoloty," but the Catholics I know have told me that they do not pray *to* Mary. I don't know about it. herchurch.org is weird. The discussions I've had with others have made me stretch my thinking, too - plenty of things do - and that's a good thing.

I still have a problem with all those idols, though. . .

I don't like a lot of the things presented on that site. . .one thing seems contracdictory to another thing they state at times.

I have no opinion on Christ having brothers or not. . .or Mary being ever virgin, as those things really don't matter for faith. . .it's not going to profit me to take a position on one side of either of those matters. I'll just stick with "we don't know."

I find much comfort in God's mysteries more than stating what "is."

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ctobola]

Cloy, I wouldn't agree with "Maryoloty," but the Catholics I know have told me that they do not pray *to* Mary.
...snip...


Catholics make distinctions between worship, adoration, etc. To me it's a lot of smoke and mirrors -- there is no mediator between God and humanity except Jesus Christ.

To justify praying to Mary, Roman Catholics pretend that "intercession" and "mediation" are different things; but their own documents repudiate that:

The following is from the Redemptoris Mater (On The Blessed Virgin Mary In The Life Of The Pilgrim Church), Encyclical of Pope John Paul II promulgated on March 25, 1987: 21. ... At Cana in Galilee there is shown only one concrete aspect of human need, apparently a small one of little importance ("They have no wine"). But it has a symbolic value: this coming to the aid of human needs means, at the same time, bringing those needs within the radius of Christ's messianic mission and salvific power. Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she "has the right" to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary "intercedes" for mankind.
As a Lutheran, I am completely astonished why anyone would want to pray to Mary. I don't spend enough time praying to God as it is -- why would I waste any of that time talking to a dead person?

-Cloy

[LutherNut]

Greek translators MAY HAVE picked "Father" for convenience, rather than for accuracy.

I don't think so. Context of Scrtipture as a whole calls for God to be masculine. Even though He is a spirit being that has no gender, He is still masculine in the context of Scripture, which describes His relationship with us as Father and NOT mother. Christ is clearly Son and furthermore He is the bridegroom of the bride, the Church. All very masculine.

[AngelusSax]

I can agree with that. A masculine nongendered spirit (who has some traditionally-thought-of-as-motherly-qualities, such as mercy).

[LutherNut]

No disagreement, and I stated that. But the fact that these folks keep showing up and are consistently called "brothers" of Jesus... and not "cousins" (anepsios) or "followers" indicates that there is something about "brothers" that the other terms do not correctly imply.

This is a valid point (although the term adelphos for "cousin" or other close family relation of the same generation is not really that much of a stretch). What else is to be considered is that when they do show up, they are almost always in the company of His mother.
Matthew 12, Mark 3 and Luke 8 all mention His mother brothers seeking Him. In John 2:12 Jesus is in the company of "His mother and brothers and His disciples" which clearly rules out "disciples" as a possible meaning for "adelphos." Again, they are mentioned in Acts 1:14.

But still, the wide semantic field of "adelphos" offers not concrete proof in and of itself. Bottom line: it matters not for our salvation.

[LutherNut]

traditionally-thought-of-as-motherly-qualities, such as mercy

Huh?? :scratch: :confused: :scratch:
What... men aren't merciful??

[AngelusSax]

Huh?? :scratch: :confused: :scratch:
What... men aren't merciful??

The stereotype has long been that they are the tougher of the two parents. Dad doles out the punishment, and mom is there to console the child afterward. Maybe it's just the area I'm in, I dunno. But typically, men are thought to be more bloodthirsty hounds than merciful angels. Women, being the "dainty flower", espouse mercy. Supposedly.

But that's what can happen when one lives in a conservative-for-conservative-sake neighborhood (the attitude is slowly changing).

[KagomeShuko]

Cloy,

Ah. Like I said, I really didn't know. Of course, the Catholics I discuss faith with now are VERY liberal ones at that. . .but still, yeah, I don't agree with it.

Christ said that no one can come to the Father except through Him.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[LutherNut]

The stereotype has long been that they are the tougher of the two parents. Dad doles out the punishment, and mom is there to console the child afterward. Maybe it's just the area I'm in, I dunno. But typically, men are thought to be more bloodthirsty hounds than merciful angels. Women, being the "dainty flower", espouse mercy. Supposedly.

But that's what can happen when one lives in a conservative-for-conservative-sake neighborhood (the attitude is slowly changing).

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :sigh:

[AngelusSax]

My thoughts exactly. Now that I think about it... it could be the Southern Baptist mentality coupled with staunch Republicanism or something, I dunno...

The people at my church at least realize that men can be and often are merciful.

[ctobola]

The stereotype has long been that they are the tougher of the two parents. Dad doles out the punishment, and mom is there to console the child afterward. Maybe it's just the area I'm in, I dunno. But typically, men are thought to be more bloodthirsty hounds than merciful angels. Women, being the "dainty flower", espouse mercy. Supposedly.

But that's what can happen when one lives in a conservative-for-conservative-sake neighborhood (the attitude is slowly changing).

You raise an interesting point, but I think the concept goes back much further than 18th/19th/20th century gender roles.

Throughout history, we see a dichotomy between "right handed" and "left handed" presentation. Male/female is one way to look at it, but others have presented it in different ways -- the chalice and the sword is one that comes to mind.

Robert Farrar Capon, an Episcopal/Anglican scholar whom I really enjoy reading, builds on the right/left concepts -- which originally can be attributed to Luther.

Capon argues that Jesus starts His ministry as a "wonder-working right-handed rabbi" but ends up as a left-handed savior. He says that traditional right-handed power is a great thing for accomplishing tasks, but that it tends to destroy human relationships when applied to people. "You can't express love and [right-handed] power at the same time," is credo that I put a lot of stock in.

In Christ,

-Cloy