Questions for Messianic Jews

[Michie]

Inspired by this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/27161.html

Shimon,

I've always been interested in Messianic Judism.

I'd like to hear what difference there are if any, there are between those that are Messianic Jews compared to your run of the mill denominational Christianity.

I know we all believe that the Messiah & Savior is Jesus Christ but are there any fundamental differences?

Thank's, :)

Michie

[Shimon]

Michie:

Thanks again for the warm welcome! :)

Basically, the main difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe that Yeshua "freed us from the need to obey the Torah" while Messianic Judaism holds that Yeshua freed us to walk *in* it.

In other words, Yeshua died for our transgression of the Torah, He didn't die so that we could turn around and start transgressing it all over again.

We observe the Sabbath and worship on the seventh day (Saturday instead of Sunday).  We observe the biblical ("Jewish") Festivals such as Passover, Shavuot, Yom Kippur and Sukkot, rather than celebrate Christmas and Easter.  We observe the kosher laws, we wear kippah and tallit, we learn Hebrew, and recite the traditional Jewish prayers.  Basically, we resemble a traditional Jewish synagogue in every way, the only difference being that we recognize Yeshua as Messiah.

You had said that you live 90 miles from the nearest Messianic congregation, that's no problem -- I learned most of what I've learned through online resources before I ever attended a Messianic congregation for the first time.  There is wealth of information on the internet.

One *very* good site is IsraelNet.tv:

http://www.israelnet.tv

If offers video programming 24 hours a day which you can watch for free.  It's kinda like watching TV -- you have to catch the show you want to watch at the time designated on their programming schedule.  They also offer access to their archives where you can watch any program you wish at the time of your choosing, but it requires a subscription membership.  The subscription is only $6.95/month so it's very reasonable, and help to support the ministry.

Another wonderful Messianic ministry is "First Fruits of Zion:"

http://www.ffoz.org/index_mk.html

They offer a wide variety of materials, books, videos, tapes, and a magazine subscription named "Bikurei Tziyon."  They have many sample articles available for free on their website, and you can subscribe to the magazine online, or order any of their other materials online.  You can even start your own Messianic study group using their "HaYesod" and "Torah Club" materials.

Below are a few websites that I've found that offer a number of articles and essays which you can view for free:

Messianic Jewish Alliance of America:

http://mjaa.org/

The Messianic Gathering Place:

http://www.tmgp.net/

The Olive Tree:

http://www.saltshakers.com/olive/rtoz.htm

Yeshua The King:

http://www.yeshuatheking.org/

Lion and Lamb Ministries (offers several audio teachings as well as a monthly newsletter):

http://www.lionlamb.net/

Michael Rood's "New Moon Publishing:"

http://www.6001.com/index.htm

CJF Ministries:

http://www.cjf.org/

Cross Talk Television Ministries:

http://www.crosstalk.org/

Jewish Jewels:

http://www.christianity.com/partner/0,,77690,00.html

Zola Levitt Ministries (offers online discussion forums):

http://www.levitt.com/

If you have any other questions, just ask.  I'm happy to help. :)

Shimon

[Reformationist]

<DIV>Originally posted by Shimon
Basically, the main difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe that Yeshua "freed us from the need to obey the Torah" while Messianic Judaism holds that Yeshua freed us to walk *in* it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Every Christian I know hold the Bible as God's Word and strives to be obedient.&nbsp; With that in mind, how&nbsp;do you come to the conclusion that&nbsp;"Christians believe that Jesus freed us from the need to&nbsp;obey the Law?"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We observe the Sabbath and worship on the seventh day (Saturday instead of Sunday).&nbsp; We observe the biblical ("Jewish")&nbsp;Festivals such as Passover, Shavuot, Yom Kippur and Sukkot, rather than celebrate Christmas and Easter.&nbsp; We observe the kosher laws, we wear kippah and tallit, we learn Hebrew, and recite the traditional Jewish prayers.&nbsp; Basically, we resemble a traditional Jewish synagogue in every way, the only difference being that we recognize Yeshua as Messiah.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Do you believe that the observance of these things are salvitic issues?&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your answers,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>God bless</DIV>

[Knight]

Shimon,
I've no wish to offend you. I have a great deal of respect for Messianics. I've had dialogues with Messianics on other forums who did not pass jugdment on Christians the way you seem to be doing.

I'll echo Ref's question: Do you consider these issues to be salvitic? (i.e. Is salvation dependant on these issues?)

[Michie]

Thank you Shimon!

I'm so glad to have you here posting on the board. :)

Let me ask you this, you said that "Basically, the main difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe that Yeshua "freed us from the need to obey the Torah" while Messianic Judaism holds that Yeshua freed us to walk *in* it."

When Jesus/Yeshua said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it, etc.
Matthew 5:17

And where in Luke 16:17 where it is said it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the law?

What is the Messianic Jew's take on these verses?

Does this have anything to do with the way Messianic Jews see their freedom to walk in the ways of the Torah?

[unitedistand]

Michie,

Luke 16:17 is pretty self explanitory. Yahweh's rules are eternal.

and when Yashua(Jesus) had said that he wasn't to break the Torah(law), but fufill it. "In order to fulfill something, you have to do it, participate in it, walk it out."

I really suggest you do more in-depth study on the site I sent you, Go to the nav bar and go to "Sabbath • Torah • Tanakh". This should be useful to a lot of questions about matters of Judism.

[Shimon]

Reformationist:

Every Christian I know hold the Bible as God's Word and strives to be obedient.&nbsp; With that in mind, how&nbsp;do you come to the conclusion that&nbsp;"Christians believe that Jesus freed us from the need to&nbsp;obey the Law?"

I've already pointed it out to you several times already, I'm beginning to wonder how many more times I'm going to be required to do so.&nbsp; You've already told me that you do not observe the Sabbath, you do not observe the kosher laws, and you don't even know what the biblical festivals (e.g. Sukkot, Shavuot, etc) are.&nbsp; You are not being taught Torah.&nbsp; God commanded us to observe these commandments and by not doing so, you are transgressing His commandments.

The Torah is the very *foundation* of all scripture.&nbsp; Every book of scripture was tested against the Torah to determine whether or not it was the Inspired Word of God or not.&nbsp; Any book which contradicted Torah was not accepted as Inspired.

In literal terms, the Torah refers to the first five books of the bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).&nbsp; These books contain the 613 mitzvot (commandments) of the Torah, but you are not being taught these commandments and are not being taught to obey them.&nbsp; In general terms, the Torah refers to *EVERY* book of the bible because every book teaches Torah -- anything that taught against Torah was thrown out.

&nbsp;

Knight:

I am not "judging" anybody.&nbsp; I am not saying I'm "a better Christian" than anyone else.&nbsp; I'm simply pointing a very serious doctrinal error of Christianity.&nbsp; By teaching against the Torah, you might as well be teaching that one doesn't have to accept Yeshua as their Savior, because it amounts to the same thing.&nbsp; Obedience of the Torah commandments are the method by which we accept Yeshua as our Savior.&nbsp; It is the Marriage Covenant.

Israel transgressed God's commandments of the Torah for 2000 years before the birth of Messiah, and it has continued to transgress His commandments for the 2000 years *after* His death.&nbsp; Man hasn't learned anything in 2000 years and he hasn't learned anything in 6000 years.

Rome considered any&nbsp;nation of people&nbsp;that would not accept the "superiority" of Roman culture to be "inferior."&nbsp; Jews were held in contempt.&nbsp; Constantine was anti-semitic and hated the Jews, and so when he declared Christianity to be the "official" religion of Rome, he certainly wasn't about to adopt what he considered to be "Jewish superstition."&nbsp; Instead, he forced Christians and Jews to take this oath:

Constantine's Creed:

...As a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew "Must confess
and denounce verbally, the whole of Hebrew people, forthwith declare that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is
a child, replying in these words:

”I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of the lambs of the Hebrews, all of the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications, propitiations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances of the synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I now renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law-abiding custom and if afterwards I should wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with the Jews or feasting with them or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain, and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.

Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, santifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath – the Sol Dei (Sun Day) – all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.”

&nbsp;

Michie:

Let me ask you this, you said that "Basically, the main difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe that Yeshua "freed us from the need to obey the Torah" while Messianic Judaism holds that Yeshua freed us to walk *in* it."

When Jesus/Yeshua said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it, etc.
Matthew 5:17

And where in Luke 16:17 where it is said it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the law?

What is the Messianic Jew's take on these verses?

Does this have anything to do with the way Messianic Jews see their freedom to walk in the ways of the Torah?

Yes, we view Matthew 5:17-18 as very important verses.

Moses taught the children of Israel that if any "prophet" or "dreamer of dreams" came along, performing signs and wonders, and yet taught them to abandon the Torah, they were to recognize him as a false prophet / false Messiah.&nbsp; Then, along comes Yeshua, performing signs and wonders, and Christianity claims that He "freed us from the Torah."&nbsp; If that were the case, then Christianity has just made the best possible case that Yeshua *cannot* be the Messiah.

But, of course, I believe that Yeshua *IS* the Messiah, and therefore I recognize that He could not possibly have taught against obedience of the Torah commandments.&nbsp; In Matthew 5:17-18, He shows us exactly that:&nbsp; He states, emphatically that He had *NOT* come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it.&nbsp; "Fulfill" is not a synonym for "abolish," "render obsolete," or "do away with."&nbsp; Yeshua died because of our transgression of His commandments, not so that we could turn around and start transgressing His commandments all over again.

Shimon

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Shimon
I've already pointed it out to you several times already, I'm beginning to wonder how many more times I'm going to be required to do so.

You're not "required to do so" once.&nbsp; Thanks for the time you did spend sharing your beliefs with me.

God bless

[Shimon]

Reformationist:

I take it that I have offended you in some way. If so, it was unintentional and I do apologize.

Shimon

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Shimon
Reformationist:

I take it that I have offended you in some way. If so, it was unintentional and I do apologize.

Shimon

Of course.&nbsp; No problem.&nbsp; I extend the same apologies.&nbsp; Sometimes the written word comes across more harsh than we mean things.

God bless

[Hector Medina]

Shimon,

I have intresting questions for you.


Do you at all recognize anything special about Sunday observance,the day Christ came back,if not why?

And why don't you observe Easter and/or Christmas???

Jesus Christ and Yeshua are the same name/thing in diffrent languages right?


In Christ(Yeshua),

Hector

[GreenEyedLady]

Just wanted to say that NOT all Messianics are the same and the doctrines can differ. There are Fanantical and passive Messianics.
Thankfully my best friend is a passive one.
I know of one church that speaks in tongues and one that does not...just to give you an example of the differant doctrines.

GEL

[Shimon]

Hector Medina:

Do you at all recognize anything special about Sunday observance,the day Christ came back,if not why?

No, because I don't believe that he died on "Friday" and rose "Sunday." I believe He died on Wednesday and arose on Saturday.

And why don't you observe Easter and/or Christmas???

No, I don't observe Christmas or Easter. December 25th is actually the birthday of Tammuz, the illegitimate son of Nimrod. Babylonian sun-god worship began with Nimrod, where the people worshipped Nimrod as a god. After his death, they claimed that he rose to heaven and became the son. They claimed that his wife was impregnated by the rays of the sun, and gave birth to Tammuz.

The Egyptian sun-god Ra was born on December 25th. Baal was born on December 25th. Molech was born on December 25th. The Roman sun-god Mithra was born on December 25th.

If there is one day in the year in which I can guarantee you that Yeshua was *not* born, it's December 25th.

Easter is also mired in Babylonian sun-god worship. The wife of Nimrod was claimed to have come down out of heaven in a giant egg which hatched open, and out came the Goddess of Fertility. She then turned a chicken into an egg-laying rabbit to proclaim her divinity.

I could go into a lot more detail, but you get the idea. :)

If you're interested in learning more about the origins of Christmas and Easter, Michael Rood provides an excellent audio teaching which you can listen to online for free.&nbsp; The teaching is called "The Feasts of the Lord" and can be found here:

http://www.michaelrood.com/teaching.htm

Jesus Christ and Yeshua are the same name/thing in diffrent languages right?

Yes, the name "Yeshua" is simply the Hebrew name for "Jesus." I got into the habit of using the name "Yeshua" out of respect for my Jewish brethren. The name "Jesus" leaves a very bad taste in their mouth because so many Jews have been killed and persecuted over the centuries in the name of "Jesus."


Green-Eyed Lady:

Just wanted to say that NOT all Messianics are the same and the doctrines can differ. There are Fanantical and passive Messianics.
Thankfully my best friend is a passive one.
I know of one church that speaks in tongues and one that does not...just to give you an example of the differant doctrines.

This is very true. A common joke among Messianics is that there is a "messy" part to "Messianic." :)

Some congregations, such as my own, has an ordained rabbi, while others are nothing more than a home bible-study. There is no organized leadership. Messianic Judaism is not so much a "denomination" as it is a "movement."

Shimon

[Hector Medina]

Shimon,

OK,

This IS serious,very serious.

I have always liked hebrew doctrines since its the one and only original "real thing".

I'm going to take bible and theology in school and I'm deep into religion so hearing this really could change my faith.

I MEAN,THIS MAKES A BIG DIFFRENECE!!!

Apparently I knew nothing about Messanic Judism :(

Does any of your belief contradict anything in the New testament(if your Bible is the same as ours)???
Might this have to do with changes in calenders???

Is it our belief that conflicts the Bible???

Hector

[Hector Medina]

By the way,

I noticed in you profile that you live in Austin.
I live in San Antonio.

Now this is even more serious since we're both Texans!

Hector

[Shimon]

Hector Medina:

This IS serious,very serious.

I have always liked hebrew doctrines since its the one and only original "real thing".

I'm going to take bible and theology in school and I'm deep into religion so hearing this really could change my faith.

I MEAN,THIS MAKES A BIG DIFFRENECE!!!

Apparently I knew nothing about Messanic Judism

Heh! Well, I hate to say it, but Messianic Judaism and Catholicism are polar opposites in almost every way. The two are so diametrically opposed to each other, that I'm kinda nervous about what kind of reception I can expect from other Catholics on this board. That being said, it amazes me that virtually half of my congregation are formerly Catholic.&nbsp; I can kinda understand it, though, because Messianic Judaism is steeped in as much tradition as Catholicism.&nbsp; I've known Catholics who attended Baptist services before, and they thought it felt "stale."&nbsp; No chance of that in a Messianic congregation. ;)

Does any of your belief contradict anything in the New testament(if your Bible is the same as ours)???

No, we use the same Bible, with both "Old Testament" known as the "Tanakh," and the "New Testament" known as the "B'rit Chadasha."&nbsp; We don't hold the books of the Apocrypha as "Inspired." &nbsp;I prefer to call the "New Testament" the "Apostolic Scriptures" because the word "testament" comes from the Latin word "testamentum" meaning "Covenant." Since I don't hold the "Old Testament" and "New Testament" to be the "old" and "new" covenants, referring to those books with these terms is very misleading. It was Jerome, who translated the Hebrew scriptures into Latin (the Latin Vulgate) and divided them in this manner. Jerome had studied with the Hebrew scholars and was extremely anti-semitic. He was quoted as saying this about the Jewish synagogue:

"If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

Jerome claimed to have "proven" the Jews are incapable of understanding the Scriptures, and that they should be severely persecuted until they profess “the true faith.”

Might this have to do with changes in calenders???

Well, it's helpful to know and understand the Hebrew calendar so that we can know where we are on God's Prophetic time-clock (and, of course, to know the proper days and seasons for observing the biblical festivals, such as Passover and Sukkot).

Is it our belief that conflicts the Bible???

Well.... yes. I believe that the early church founders were not trained and instructed in Torah, and therefore completely misunderstood what the Apostles were teaching. Yeshua was a rabbi -- a Torah-teacher, and his apostles likewise taught the Torah. One must remember that the early church founders were formerly pagan, and they fell back on their previous pagan beliefs because they were not trained and instructed in the Torah.

noticed in you profile that you live in Austin.
I live in San Antonio.

Now this is even more serious since we're both Texans!


Heh!&nbsp; We're just a stone's thrown away from each other. :)

Shimon

[MissytheButterfly]

Michie, you can learn a lot from this site about what Messanics believe..it's a small forum..but informative on the Messanic faith. It tells what they are, what they believe, and how services are in a Messanic congregation.

&nbsp;Messanic Believer Forum (http://www.churchquest.com/forum_display.php?id=62)

[MissytheButterfly]

Great Post, Shimon!!!

In Y'shua,
Missy

[JustinWilliams]

Shimon,

Do you observe all 613 laws of Judaism?


Also you say that Christians today should observe such things as the kosher laws, correct? But in such passages as 1st Corinthians 8 we find that early Christians at times ate things that had been sacrificed to idols, yet we know that in Deuteronomy 14:3 that such things were not allowed. So how is it that the early Christians could stray from certain laws but not us?


Be Well,

Jesaiah

[Shimon]

Jesaiah:

Do you observe all 613 laws of Judaism?

Yes, we observe all of the commandments that are possible to observe. Some commandments, such as the ones regarding temple sacrifices, cannot be observed since their is no Temple. Others can only be observed while in the land of Israel.

I'm always curious why I'm asked this question. What commandments do you think Traditional Judaism observes? ;)

Let's put it this way: Suppose your spouse sends you to the grocery store with a list of items to pick up. Your spouse tells you to pick up a loaf of bread, a carton of milk, a carton of eggs, and a sack of flour. You get the store and pick up the bread, milk, and eggs, and then discover that the store is out of flour. Do you then put all the items back on the shelves and return home empty-handed, and say to your spouse: "Well, since I couldn't carry out *all* of your instructions, I didn't carry any of them?"

How do you expect your spouse would respond? ;)

Also you say that Christians today should observe such things as the kosher laws, correct? But in such passages as 1st Corinthians 8 we find that early Christians at times ate things that had been sacrificed to idols, yet we know that in Deuteronomy 14:3 that such things were not allowed. So how is it that the early Christians could stray from certain laws but not us?


Yes, we should observe the kosher laws.

Basically, there are two issues we need to keep in mind with regard to Paul's teachings about meat sacrificed to idols.

One issue is that oftentimes, meat that had been sacrificed to an idol was placed back out on the open market for sale. A person had no way of knowing whether or not a particular piece of meat had been offered to an idol or not. The believers didn't know what they should do in this case, as they did not want to inadvertantly break the commandment unwittingly.

Secondly, the Jews considered that there were only two kinds of people in the world: Jews and Pagans. Traditional Judaism held that, for a Gentile to become a member of the Abrahamic covenant, he had to be circumcised and become a "Jew." Once he became a Jew, he had to maintain his "Jewish" status by observing *all* of the rabbinic halachah, including the Written Torah as well as the Oral Torah. Since the apostles were teaching that a Gentile did not have to obey the *Oral* Torah (not the Written Torah), the Jews were uneasy, because they had no way of knowing that a Gentile believer had made a solid break with their idolatrous past.

The pagan temple was the center of the Gentile community, just as the Jewish Temple was the center of the Jewish community. Oftentimes, feasts and other events were held in the Temple courtyard without having any direct connection to temple activity (i.e. no sacrifices taking place). Gentiles felt that they could participate in such events without engaging in any idolatrous activity, but the Jews were made very uncomfortable because they had no way of knowing if the Gentiles were engaging in idolatry or not. This was the reason behind the Jerusalem Council's decision in Acts 15: they requested that Gentiles obey *some* of the Oral Torah in order to prove to their Jewish brethren that they had made a solid break with their idolatrous past. All four "laws" given in Acts 15 dealt with issues of idolatry.

This was Paul's response:

1 Corinthians 10:27: If some unbeliever invites you to a meal, and you want to go, eat whatever is put in front of you without raising questions of conscience. But if someone says to you, "This meat was offered as a sacrifice," then don't eat it, out of consideration for the person who pointed it out and also for conscience's sake -- however, I don't mean your conscience but that of the other person.

Paul is saying that if you know that the meat has been sacrificed to an idol, then don't it. But if you don't know, then eat it without raising questions of concience.

Does that help?

Shimon

[Erwin]

A separate Messianic Judaism forum here at CF is a good idea. I'm wondering whether we have enough Messianic Jewish members here to support one. Please post in this threads your thoughts:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/28411.html

[Andrew]

The Messianic Jews my church knows and supports in Israel does not follow the laws anymore or worship on Sat etc. I'm also saying this cos they are also receiving and teaching the pure grace message of the gospel that my church is teaching -- ie all grace -- no mixtures.

Cast out the bondwoman.

[Michie]

What are the Messianic Jewish Believers take on the rapture?

This seems to be a pretty hot issue.

We got pre-post-pan- trib people.

Some people say Jesus will return twice, some say just once to gather His people.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Thank's! :)
Michie

[Shimon]

Michie:

What are the Messianic Jewish Believers take on the rapture?

This seems to be a pretty hot issue.

We got pre-post-pan- trib people.

Some people say Jesus will return twice, some say just once to gather His people.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this

Ooooooh! Now you've touched on a very intriguing subject! In fact, it was my interest in bible prophecy that led to my discovery of Messianic Judaism. With all of the world events that have happened in the last few years, I could see that God was at work, and I began to search the internet for prophecy material, and kept finding Messianic sites. Their interpretations fascinated me, and I could see that their knowledge of the Torah gave them an understanding that we lack. For instance, so much of the imagery described in the Book of Revelation requires an understanding of Torah so that one can see the correlations.

There are some slight variations in interpretations between various Messianic teacjers, but they all seem to agree on a Post-Trib or Pre-Wrath interpretation. I'm not aware of any Messianic teachers who accept the Pre-Trib viewpoint.

Give me some time collect my thoughts, and I'll start a new thread on the subject.


Shimon

[WildHeart75]

I have been studying Messianic Judaism. The jewish goes back to the original Hewbrew and therefor is the most accurate teachings. I think what alot of Christians fail to remember is that our Savior Yahshua was Jewish and He upheld the Feasts and the Laws of the Torah. One thing I would like to point out to Christians is that Yahshua did not say to do away with the feasts and the Torah, The only thing He changed by coming here and dying on a cross is the sacrificing animals. He was the sacrificial lamb. I would also like to point out that catholics are the main (or the only christian based religion that I know of) that is against the death penalty. Yahshua taught us to uphold the Torah and the Ten Commandments is part of the Torah. I know alot of Christians who teach the ten commandments and in the same breath will support the death penalty, that is not only a hypocrite, but mocking Yahshua, who was given the death penalty and died on a cross for our salvation. I do not think He would appreciate the support for such a hideous act, especially after Him putting Himself through it because of His love for us. We are suppose to love each other as we love ourselves. I would also like to point out that Christians today are celebrating perversed verisons of the Holy Days, like Halloween, Easter and Christmas. Pagans sacrificed babies and dipped eggs in the babies blood and that was suppose to make them fertile the next year, henceforth the coloring and hunting of easter eggs, the christmas tree is a representation of Ba'als *****. On the statue his scrotum was gold and silver, sorry for the lewdness here but henceofrth the gold and silver balls on the christmas tree. I do not think if most christians really realized this that they would be celebrating those things. I apologize if I have offended anyone by the lewdness of the above statements, but that is exactly what they are, and what christians are celebrating. I am not judging, I was born and raised in a household that celebrated those things, it wasn't until I got older and started researching that I found out all those years what exactly we were doing. Anyway, that is just my 2 cents worth.

- Rachael

[cleon]

I just picked up this thread and noticed back on page one that one of the differences between Miessianic Jews and Christianity was the observance of Christmas and Easter.

I would like to state that not all "Christians" observe these two religious festivals. If we are to be Christ's disciples and follow His word, it would appear that many are doing what is right in their own eyes, for nowhere do I find such command that we are to observe any Christianized pagan festivals such as these.

Can anyone point out a scripture where we are to observe the Messiah's birthday? Can you show me the scripture that points out the day when He was born?

And as for easter, where in the scriptures do we find such a feast that we are to observe?

&nbsp;

Noel

[Higher Truth]

TRUE Messianic Judaism is a beautiful faith. The problem that I see now occuring is that the non-Jewish believers who have found Messianic Judaism have brought their 'baggage' of teaching that is not part of the doctrine with them. Things like denying the tri-une nature of God. Messianic Jews call the Messiah Yeshua, because that is the correct translation of His name from Hebrew to English.Due to this 'false' teaching by others, there are now many variations of His name. There are many out there claming to be Messianic Jews, but are not. They are perverting the doctrine, and leading new believers astray.Once again, read the fine print.

Rev 2:9 I know your works, and the affliction, and the poverty; but you are rich. And I know the evil speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.

[msmorality]

" We are no longer under the law but under Grace". Romans 6:14

"So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new- moon ceremonies or Sabbaths." Col 2:16

[Higher Truth]

Masquerading in many cases as Messianic Jews, the Sacred Name [only] groups are growing in numbers. They seem to be gaining momentum and are appearing in many areas these days.

These groups vary when it comes to their beliefs and doctrines but many do have a similiar theme that they for the most part adhere to. They try to pass themselves off as Messianic Jews but you can see through them quite easily if you know what to look for.

Here are some of their basic points:

* Yeshua/Jesus was the Messiah but he wasn't God, just a man, or an "Agent" of God, but now his work is finished.Some also totally deny the tri-une nature of God.

* Intellectually accepting Yeshua/Jesus is enough. You are saved by the keeping of the laws, grace has nothing to do with it.

* Many adhere to a sacred name philosophy. Anytime you see someone claim a "This is the only name you are to call Yeshua/Jesus or God" philosophy, you can pretty much consider them as SNO right there.[they all have the one 'correct' name that they use]

* Many have done their own translation of the bible as no one has EVER in the history of mankind done it correctly before. Some believe that the Greek New Testamant has been corrupted, and should not be trusted.

* Some believe that their leader or leaders represent one or both of the two witnesses of revelation.

[cleon]

Higher Truth, I have met a man in our community who appears to subscibe to such as these "holy name" groups. I have recognized in him the same characteristics that you have mentioned. He appears quite radical for after talking with him for awile, he got extremely upset for me using the name Jesus (too often I guess) and started shouting, its "Yeshua, Yeshua", while thrusting his fists up in the air. I thought he was going to hit me. He did calm down although and I though it best to exit from his presence.

I have recognized as with all organized religion, they are either a form of the religion of Cain or that of Abel. There are really only two religions in the world.

[Higher Truth]

Cleon,

They do not typically use the correct name 'Yeshua' they use a version that 'sounds' similiar, but is not a name that is translatable from Hebrew to English. The name that they use is YAHshua. They believe that Jesus is a pagan name and so is God.

[Charles YTK]

To MSMORALITY,

Rom 6:[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Please read the entire passage to place it in context. Paul is making the point that we do not serve the law in a practice of legalistic observance in order to earn our own salvation. We are deliver from the power of sin in our lives so that the just requirements of the law are manifest in the lives of the believers, so that we do what the law requires not outwardly, but naturally, because Messiah lives in us.

Look back to other passages to understand what is being said.

Romans 2: [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness. . .

Charles YTK

[Shimon]

MsMorality:

" We are no longer under the law but under Grace". Romans 6:14

It was not the Torah which was "nailed to the execution stake," but the *penalty* for our transgression of the Torah. Yeshua died for the forgiveness of our sins, He did not die so that we could turn around and transgress His Torah all over again.

"So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new- moon ceremonies or Sabbaths." Col 2:16

Paul was saying that some people believed that one biblical holy day was "holier" than another. For instance, some believed that Yom Kippur was a "holier" day than Passover, while others believed that Passover was 'holier" than Yom Kippur. Even today, there are some who believe that Christmas is "holier" than Easter, and others who believe that Easter is "holier" than Christmas.

He was certainly not telling us that it was okay to stop observing the holy days that God had commanded us to observe. On the contrary, he even told us to continue to observe Passover:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened of sincerity and truth.

And in Acts Chapter 20, we find Paul hurrying to Jerusalem, in order to be there in time to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot:

Acts 20:16: For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: [b]for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Lastly, at Paul's trial before Felix, he stated emphatically:

Acts 24:14: Acts 24:14: But this I do admit to you: I worship the God of our fathers in accordance with the Way (which they call a sect). I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.

If Paul was teaching that it is okay to disregard the Torah, then how is it that he could have made the quote above?

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

David Stern is the translator of the Comple Jewish Bible. He is a Mesianic Jew, and his Bible is very popular among Messianic Jewish believers, because it restores a Jewish entity to the Gospels. He also wrote a book called "The Jewish New Testament Commentary" In this book he attempts to explain the Hebrew Idioms behind the Greek writings, from a Jewish perspective. Here are some 'excerpts' from this book:

Rev 2:9 I know your works, and the affliction, and the poverty; but you are rich. And I know the evil speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.

" Yochanan (John) writes about Gentiles who call themselves Jews but aren't - on the contrary, they are a synagogue of satan, the adversary, Perhaps they, like the gentile Judaizers of the book of Galatians, adopted a smattering of Jewish practices and tried to force them on Gentile believers. They may have subjected themselves to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. They apparently organized a pseudo Messianic synagogue. Their false doctrine probably led them to wrong and immoral behavior, since false doctrine usually does. They probably drew Gentile Christians away from the truth, and thereby threatened the Messianic community. Virtually all commentators ignore the obvious and straightforward interpretation that Yochanan (John) is talking here about Gentiles who pretend to be Jews."

"Should it nevertheless be thought improbable that Gentiles would call themselves Jews, Hebrews or Israelites, consider the following modern examples. The 'British Israelites' regard the British as the Ten Lost Tribes. The Mormons not only consider themselves to be the Ten Lost Tribes but regard themselves as Jews and everyone else (real Jews included) as Gentiles. A sect of mostly American-born blacks consider themselves the true Hebrews; several thousand of them are living in Israel. All of these are outside the pale of Christianity. In addition, scattered about are well-meaning Gentile Christians whose strong identification with and love for the Jewish people has made them believe,without a shred of evidence,that they are actually Jewish themselves.In fact, some years ago a congregation was expelled from the American Lutheran Church because, along with a general drift into weirdness, its pastor and dozens of its members claimed to have heard from God that they were really Jews; many even said they knew which tribe they belonged to."

"Without exception this phenomenon of Gentiles imagining and asserting they are Jewish when they are not leads to strange patterns of doctrine and practice. Such people are not accepted by Jews as Jewish; nor, as this verse shows, are they to be accepted by Christians as Christian. Isolated and self-defensive, they can easily become prideful, neither obeying the Torah nor showing brotherly love to Yeshua's (Jesus) real followers. It is easy to see why Yeshua (Jesus) does not regard them as harmlessly neutral but pegs them as the synagogue of the adversary."

(All above writings in "quotes" from the Jewish New Testament Commentary, by David Stern)

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

Was it really necessary to post the same message in four separate threads?

I've made it clear that I was born and raised as a Gentile, and that I haven't "converted" to Judaism. In fact, here is the exact quote:

I was born a Gentile, was raised as a Gentile, and am still a Gentile.

I really don't like to refer to myself as a "Jew." I'm not a Jew, and have no wish to be misleading, or to offend real Jews. But when someone asks me what denomination I'm in, I don't know what else to say -- "Messianic Judaism" is the name that it goes by. I really don't consider it a "denomination" but a movement that attempts to rediscover the Hebrew roots of our faith. The scriptures were written by Jews, and therefore I believe it is imperative that we attempt to understand them from a Hebraic point of view.


Secondly, I believe you are misunderstanding what Yeshua is saying in that verse. Here are the words of Paul:

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

If Paul is truly an emissary of Yeshua, and if his epistles were truly Inspired, then Paul cannot be contradicting Yeshua. Paul is clearly telling us that ethnic status has absolutely no bearing on one's right-standing before HaShem. What Paul is saying is that within the Covenant Family, there is no such thing as "Jew" or "Greek."

What Yeshua is saying in the verse you quoted, is that there are some who claim to be members of the Covenant Family who aren't members at all.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Shimon,

I am not accusing you of claiming to be Jewish, as I have read you statement before. I posted on four threads, because some people do not read all of the threads. What I have seen lately, is people mixing Messianic Judiasm with other doctrines that are not approved by Messianic Rabbis.ot the governing bodies. There are many 'false' teachers out there on the internet that are trying to steer Messianic Judaism in a direction to meet their own personal needs, and the majority of them are not even Jewish. Just like in Christianity, people are gathering together teachers who 'tickle' their ears, but are not promoting the truth according to scripture. There is so much 'extra biblical' teaching out there these days, that is posing as 'Messianic ', that people need to be aware of this. People that have not been exposed to Judaism, especially Christians who are curious, do not need to be 'Judaized', which will make them resentful towards people of Jewish birth. The writing that I posted was by David Stern, a Jewish scholar, who has interpreted the NT scriptures from a Hebrew perspective.

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

Okay, fair enough.

My congregation is led by an ordained Jewish rabbi, and is a member of the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues.

International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues:

http://iamcs.mjaa.org/

Messianic Jewish Alliance of America:

http://www.mjaa.org/

Below is a link to our website, which was rated in the Messianic Jewish Top 100 by the Messianic Bureau International.

Zion Messianic Congregation:

http://tzion.org/

Messianic Bureau International:

http://www.messianic.com/

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Does you Rabbi approve of the teachings of Monte Judah and Michael Rood?

[Charles YTK]

Higher truth,

I do not understand why you are bringing a personal attack against Shimon. I do not believe he is the spokes person for his particular synagogue nor for the rabbi or the Messianic Jewish believers in general.

Now it may be that you do not agree with the doctrines that Messianics believe in. It can be said without contest that Christianity has its own doctrines which are not as closely connected to the biblical doctrine followed by Jews and Messianics. So there is not point in arguing these difference. I believe this area was set up as a place for people with an interest in the Messianic faith or those already practicing this form of faith to have meaningful exchanges. You you are opposed to our doctrine, or have no interst, then I see there are an overwhelming number of more forum area here that you can take part in. Your interjections here are quickly bringing this area into the realm of an alley fight.

Charles YTK

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

Does you Rabbi approve of the teachings of Monte Judah and Michael Rood?


This are some points on which he agrees with them, and some points on which he disagrees. He neither encourages nor discourages anyone from listening to them. There are differences of opinion in *any* denomination or movement. For instance, not all Southern Baptists are in agreement with Jerry Falwell.

I know he disagrees with Michael Rood's calendar, and Michael Rood also acknowledges that it is a valid argument:

Still, there is a valid
argument that it was the purpose of a national representative of Israel (i.e. the Sanhedrin) to interview witnesses and declare the Rosh Chodesh for the Nation, so that we would all keep the Feasts on the same day -- and that since the last standing Sanhedrin established this calendar, and we have no such official body today, that the current Jewish calendar should be kept for the unity of the Nation. If you are of this persuasion, then you can stop reading -- for you know when your Holy Days will be from now until the year 7000. You have determined that, until a new Sanhedrin is convened, there is no need to look for Aviv barley in the spring or the New Moon each month.


I haven't really spoken to him at length over his views of Michael Rood's or Monte Judah's teachings, but I know that there are several in my congregation who have used them.

Personally, I find the materials from First Fruits of Zion to be among the best, and they have given seminars in our congregation in the past.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Charles,

Do not misunderstan me, as I totally agree with the 'true' doctrine of Messianic Judaism. What I disagree with is the false doctrine that others have brought in to try and steer the Messianic movement to promote their own doctrine. There is much of this going on, especially on the internet. I am not 'attacking' Shimon, I am merely stating my opinion to other members of the Messianic forum. I have personally enjoyed many of the posts and discussion.

[Higher Truth]

Charles,

Do not misunderstand me, as I totally agree with the 'true' doctrine of Messianic Judaism. What I disagree with is the false doctrine that others have brought in to try and steer the Messianic movement to promote their own doctrine. There is much of this going on, especially on the internet. I am not 'attacking' Shimon, I am merely stating my opinion to other members of the Messianic forum. I have personally enjoyed many of the posts and discussions.

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Is www.yashanet.com (http://www.yashanet.com) a messianic site?

[Higher Truth]

Let me just say this. All sites that have a star of David or a Menorah on them, are not necessarily Messianic Jewish sites.

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Higher Truth
Let me just say this. All sites that have a star of David or a Menorah on them, are not necessarily Messianic Jewish sites.

True.

Do you have any Messianic sites for Quizzler to refer to?

[Higher Truth]

Let me send you to an excellent one. It is hosted by Rav Loren Jacobs. He has a plethora of information. The list of articles is on the right side of the page. The names of God is an excellent one to start with.

http://www.shema.com

[Matthew9:9]

Speaking only for myself:

I am a Messianic Jew in that -

1.) I believe that Jesus (aka Yeshua) is the Messiah of the Jews and Gentiles.

2.) I was born a Jew to Jewish parents

3.) I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity/tribal heritage and don't wish to cast it off.

4.) I accept Torah but I reject Talmud, Mishnah, etc. I believe that Rabbinic Judaism has gone far astray by setting the words of humans (Rabbis in the Talmud)above the words of God in the Bible.&nbsp;

Remember that keeping Biblically Kosher is far different from keeping Rabbinically Kosher. Also remember that the oft-quoted figure of 613 Mitzvot is&nbsp;a bit misleading since many of the Mitzvot pertain to Temple practices.

&nbsp;

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Matthew9:9
Speaking only for myself:

I am a Messianic Jew in that -

1.) I believe that Jesus (aka Yeshua) is the Messiah of the Jews and Gentiles.

2.) I was born a Jew to Jewish parents

3.) I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity/tribal heritage and don't wish to cast it off.

4.) I accept Torah but I reject Talmud, Mishnah, etc. I believe that Rabbinic Judaism has gone far astray by setting the words of humans (Rabbis in the Talmud)above the words of God in the Bible.&nbsp;

Remember that keeping Biblically Kosher is far different from keeping Rabbinically Kosher. Also remember that the oft-quoted figure of 613 Mitzvot is&nbsp;a bit misleading since many of the Mitzvot pertain to Temple practices.

&nbsp;

AMEN!

[Higher Truth]

One New Man [and Woman]

Two types of people...Elohims...and everyone else.

[BBAS 64]

I must say as a christian I love the knowledge contained in this site. I will admit I do not understand if all to the degree I would like to, but my mind is delighted with this information and the thought it provokes. May be some day I will be able to contribute in a useful way.


THANK YOU ALL !!!! http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/clap.gif


For His Glory Alone!!

BBAS

[sojeru]

4.) I accept Torah but I reject Talmud, Mishnah, etc. I believe that Rabbinic Judaism has gone far astray by setting the words of humans (Rabbis in the Talmud)above the words of God in the Bible.&nbsp;

Remember that keeping Biblically Kosher is far different from keeping Rabbinically Kosher. Also remember that the oft-quoted figure of 613 Mitzvot is&nbsp;a bit misleading since many of the Mitzvot pertain to Temple practices.

so all of Talmud is thrown out because of these???
You have alot of learning to do- for you yourself cannot be completely complete without some of the insight that is in talmud.
I myself DO NOT set above Torah and the rest of the sepher HaShem, However, i do not rule out Talmud as having some inspiration within it.
I am orthodox....just a jew- and I believe in Messiah.

There is a group in Miami who are Orthodox, carry the Nazarean codocil (b'surat HaG'ulah-good news of redemption) and carry the talmud and they say there is no dicsrepancy within either of them.
I want like to understand their logic- But I DO KNOW that some of Talmud is inspired. and for you to throw that away is for you to throw away some of our brothers- because some of them are infact penned in there.

shalom!

[yod]

Or how about this article (http://www.lebaneseforces.com/blastfromthepast002.asp)describing the brutal deaths of 582 Lebanese christians at the hands of Arafat's Fatah group and the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine)?

He has been a mass murderer for his entire life! Why does ANYONE think he is interested in peace with anyone? He controls Palestinian media and education which teaches children as young as 5 to murder jews. It's unconscienable! It will take an entire generation to change this bloodlust.

But what is even worse is that seemingly reasonable people are being duped by his lies and the carnage continues as he becomes emboldened. I put the blame for all innocent people in this war, arab or jew, in the lap of Arafat.

[yod]

oops....posted in the wrong thread.