Orthodox Perspective

[drpepper101]

I just wanted to get an Orthodox prespective on this question as the other thread around an unbelieving spouse had me wondering.

Would you consider divorce if your unbelieving spouse was intentionally negatively influencing the spiritual growth of your children?

[eoe]

UG. Gross siutuation. I have no idea but if this is happening to you I would suggest that you get to a priest fast.

Lord have mercy.:crosseo:

[drpepper101]

UG. Gross siutuation. I have no idea but if this is happening to you I would suggest that you get to a priest fast.

Lord have mercy.:crosseo:

I'm not married, so my question is only one of an interest in Orthodox opinion.

[kamikat]

Mine may not be an Orthodox opinion, but comes from being a child of a divorced family. My husband would have to beat the tar out me before I'd even consider divorce. I think divorce is the worst possible thing to ever happen to a child. Divorce shatters a child and should only be an option in VERY rare and deplorable circumstances.
kamikat

[drpepper101]

Mine may not be an Orthodox opinion, but comes from being a child of a divorced family. My husband would have to beat the tar out me before I'd even consider divorce. I think divorce is the worst possible thing to ever happen to a child. Divorce shatters a child and should only be an option in VERY rare and deplorable circumstances.
kamikat

So if you had your children saying something alone the lines of "Daddy says Jesus isn't real and I think he's right" you wouldn't consider the possiblity of terminating a marriage if your spouse refused to amend this behavior? I'm not trying to argue, so please don't take it that way.

[Dewi Sant]

I would never resort to divorce.

I would show my wife her problem, then if she doesn't change I would pray also.

My parents are divorced and though it doesn't affect me much I can only imagine how much better things could be if they were together.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Having just gone through a divorce 2 years ago I would not wish that kind of emotional trauma on anyone, not even on my x-wife. There are some times when a divorce is inevitable, but it is never pretty and always harmful to the soul.

[kamikat]

So if you had your children saying something alone the lines of "Daddy says Jesus isn't real and I think he's right" you wouldn't consider the possiblity of terminating a marriage if your spouse refused to amend this behavior? I'm not trying to argue, so please don't take it that way.

Well, my husband is an atheist. In fact, there's a thread somewhere here where I ask how to handle my children's questions about why Daddy doesn't pray. My God-given roll is to obey and submit to my husband. If he were to leave me, I would move on with my life, but I would try to get us into therapy first. My husband also comes from a divorced home and would never consider divorce. My job is raise my children to know Christ. They know their prayers and I'm working on getting them comfortable with coming to church. I have asked my priest about coming into the church with an unbelieving spouse. He had a completely different response than when I was trying to revert to Catholicism and asked the monsigor to convalidate my civil marriage. When the Orthodox Church welcomes me into her bosom, she is welcoming my whole life, as it is.

kamikat

[drpepper101]

I guess to put in my two cents, we know from St. Paul that it is okay to remain married to an unbeliving suppose. Of course, we are also told not to be unequally yoked with non-believers. I have always understood that to mean if we are already believers we should not consider marrying those that do not believe. I may vary from the RCC teaching a little on this subject, but I believe that St. Paul's instructions clearly provide for divorce if a non-believing spouse makes it difficult for the believer to follow the faith and raise the children in the faith. It is entirely possible for a spouse to be a non-believer and not be a negative spiritual influence. That's fine, of course. However, I would have to say that I would end a marriage if I had a wife that did not believe and encouraged my children to share her unbelief. I don't think I could sit back and watch my spouse try and lead the impressionable children astray intentionally.

[OrthoCanuck]

I'm married to an unbelieving spouse who is a fairly negative influence. No plans for divorce though.


Peace.

[kamikat]

duplicate

[kamikat]

[FONT=Arial However, I would have to say that I would end a marriage if I had a wife that did not believe and encouraged my children to share her unbelief. I don't think I could sit back and watch my spouse try and lead the impressionable children astray intentionally.[/FONT]

Are you married? Do you have children? If not, then you have no idea how you would react. If the two of you come together in marriage as unbelievers, then one becomes a believer, the believer is the one who changes. The unbelieving spouse didn't sign up for a Christian marriage. How would you feel if your wife suddenly became a Muslima? I'm sure she would feel it was her duty to teach that Muhammad is the only prophet. She would feel that you are the unbeliever. It's up to her to compromise.
Personally, I feel it's my duty to do what I can to preserve my family and the 10 years I have built with this man. Sure, I tend to keep my faith hidden from he and when I teach my children, it is generally when he is not home, but my family is my prority. No, I don't think you should let your spouse lead the children astray. You take your children to church, you teach them the faith and do the best you can. Children will be lead astray by the world, it doesn't have to be a parent.
kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

Are you married? Do you have children?

Yes, exactly. You can't possibly understand the pain of leaving a marriage unless you have been married yourself.

[kamikat]

I think I'm going to have to unsubcribe from this thread. This reminds me too much of an arguement I had last year in OBOB when I was talking with other reverts and converts about birth control with a non-Catholic spouse. All of a sudden, a bunch of very young, unmarried posters jumped in and told everyone to divorce their spouses for using birth control. Someone who has never been married or does not have children has no idea what it means to build a life with someone. This thread is really making me upset and I don't need that.

kamikat

[seashale76]

Kamikat:

:hug: Scripture backs up your position on this.

[moses916]

No. The person chose to marry an unbelieving spouse and if that person felt he/she would be a negative influence than they shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. If the person is strong through God, than the unbelieving spouse cannot harm him/her, rather the person will make the unbelieving spouse a believer and positive influence. :)

[OrthoCanuck]

No. The person chose to marry an unbelieving spouse and if that person felt he/she would be a negative influence than they shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. If the person is strong through God, than the unbelieving spouse cannot harm him/her, rather the person will make the unbelieving spouse a believer and positive influence. :)

I guess this whole question really only applies to those who convert after marriage. Orthodox Christians cannot marry non-Christians and my priest says he wouldn't even marry an Orthodox to a non-Orthodox Christian.

Peace.

[Matrona]

I hope I would be patient and understanding if I married that person while they were an unbeliever--after all, I did know what I was getting into.

If I were married and my spouse lost his faith, I would try to help him back on the wagon. But if he became belligerent or belittling to me, or tried to coerce me out of the faith... I think might split. Even if the husband didn't leave religion altogether but went to a different religion or a denomination of Christianity. And if he spoke to others about me "oh, she'll come around to [belief system] eventually, it's just a matter of time before she leaves the Orthodox Church" or tried to make me convert on the basis of a man as "head of the house", I think I would divorce him. Maybe that's a failing of mine and I'm wrong for feeling that way, but if I heard my husband talking about me like that, it would hurt me worse than anything, and I don't think I could stay married to someone who would say such things. Call it the last remnant of feminism in my mind, but if I tolerated that kind of treatment, I would feel like a doormat.

That's just me, though, and I definitely don't presume to judge anyone who has or would choose differently.

I should note that I think I would be much less likely to divorce in any case if we had kids.

[Theophorus]

I guess to put in my two cents, we know from St. Paul that it is okay to remain married to an unbeliving suppose. Of course, we are also told not to be unequally yoked with non-believers. I have always understood that to mean if we are already believers we should not consider marrying those that do not believe. I may vary from the RCC teaching a little on this subject, but I believe that St. Paul's instructions clearly provide for divorce if a non-believing spouse makes it difficult for the believer to follow the faith and raise the children in the faith. It is entirely possible for a spouse to be a non-believer and not be a negative spiritual influence. That's fine, of course. However, I would have to say that I would end a marriage if I had a wife that did not believe and encouraged my children to share her unbelief. I don't think I could sit back and watch my spouse try and lead the impressionable children astray intentionally.

But words mean nothing or are much less important in the overall scheme of things. To divorce over this issue would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I believe you are wrong in your assertion that divorce is justified in this situation. Peter talks about how the chaste wife can win her husband over not with word, but through virtue. And the scriptures talk of how the unbelieving spouse is sacntified by the believing spouse "else your chilfren were unclean; but now they are holy."

The divorce would be more un Christian in this situation than the words of the husband. It would be an extremely bad example.

Now I will go off on a little rant about children and parents.

Today's society places children on a pedistal within the family unit. Not to undermine the blessing that children are, but imo, for a healthy family, the parents should put each other first. If the two, or even one of them, .loves the other as Christ loves the Church, then the children also benefit. I see all too often marriages putting the cart before the horse when it comes to their children. They place the children before their spouse, there are divisions and animosity sometimes between the parents.

Remember, the greatest relationship between God and man takes the form of a marriage. The children would learn more of virtue and God by the wife loving the husband, unconditionally rather than her leaving him, just as she loves her children in the same way.

The great Saints of the Church, also love all men, Christian or not. Christ also loved us.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us...

The children ultimately learn virtue and other things by the example set by their parents. If the Parents love each other, this is a poewrful message. If the wife loves her unbelieving husband, this can be an even more powerful example, because it is the example we find in Christ Himself.

[ephraimanesti]

But words mean nothing or are much less important in the overall scheme of things. To divorce over this issue would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I believe you are wrong in your assertion that divorce is justified in this situation. Peter talks about how the chaste wife can win her husband over not with word, but through virtue. And the scriptures talk of how the unbelieving spouse is sacntified by the believing spouse "else your chilfren were unclean; but now they are holy."

The divorce would be more un Christian in this situation than the words of the husband. It would be an extremely bad example.

Now I will go off on a little rant about children and parents.

Today's society places children on a pedistal within the family unit. Not to undermine the blessing that children are, but imo, for a healthy family, the parents should put each other first. If the two, or even one of them, .loves the other as Christ loves the Church, then the children also benefit. I see all too often marriages putting the cart before the horse when it comes to their children. They place the children before their spouse, there are divisions and animosity sometimes between the parents.

Remember, the greatest relationship between God and man takes the form of a marriage. The children would learn more of virtue and God by the wife loving the husband, unconditionally rather than her leaving him, just as she loves her children in the same way.

The great Saints of the Church, also love all men, Christian or not. Christ also loved us.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us...

The children ultimately learn virtue and other things by the example set by their parents. If the Parents love each other, this is a poewrful message. If the wife loves her unbelieving husband, this can be an even more powerful example, because it is the example we find in Christ Himself.

MY DEAR BROTHER IN CHRIST,

AMEN TO EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID! What you describe is the exact experience my wife had with me. Sinful piece of trash that i was, i was a verbally abusive alcoholic/addict/atheist while my wife was a clean/sober/devout Christian. i cannot imagine a worse influence on our three children than i was and yet my wife, with the support of her Church Family (she's Protestant), hung in there and focused all her attention and energy in assuring that our children were brought up to know the Lord.
It took many years--may my wife be eternally blest!!!!!--but her shining example finally brought me to my senses--both physically, mentally, emotionally and, most importantly Spiritually--and not only facilitated my getting clean and sober, but also my coming to know the Lord and eventually finding Orthodoxy.
Divorce except for marital infidelity is not an option for a Christian, as our God is stronger than any possible "bad influence" a spouse could be! Divorcing in a situation like this is denying God's Power--a sin in and of itself.
To anyone in this situation, i would counsel them to hang on and pray--if my wife's example could turn a sinner like me from the darkness to the light, it can, with prayer, happen to anyone. :bow:TRUST HIM TO MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!

BLESSINGS TO ALL IN CHRIST,
ephraim

[drpepper101]

Not really interested in carrying out an argument. Wasn't my intention. As for your point on the RCC and birth control, it doesn't matter whether the other spouse is RCC or not. Anything outside of NFP is not acceptable to the Church. So young and unmarried or not they were correct in pointing that out.
Some relivant Scripture, "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matt 10:37)
I guess my only last question would be if we spend all of our time hiding our faith how are we going to live out the Great Commission?

[Xpycoctomos]

I am getting married this summer and thankfully my wife is Orthodox. So, we are getting married as Chrsitians, and, even better, as Orthodox Christians.

Were she to fall away from the faith, I would hope I would not consider divorce. Even if she were trying to influence my children away from God, I'm not sure how divorce would help that. It would jsut mean she has more "alone time" with them to influence them.

I agree with everything Kamikat said regarding her situation (not that it matters since it is HER situation).

The only reason I would seriously consider divorce would be for an affair (We would try to repair it first, but I would never be able to trust my spouse again if that were to happen... but God can work miracles) or abuse... especially of my children.

I feel that if the spouse is abusing the children in any significant and chronic way, one is almost obliged to AT LEAST leave that spouse if not divorce them. But in such a case, there is no real mutual love anyway, so from an Orthdoox perspective, the sacrament of marriage has ceased to exist, even if it is on paper. Surely it can be revived and this should be tried, but not at the expense of the children's health. Same goes for drug abuse.

So, for me personally there are defintie criteria that warrant a divorce or at least separation, but I pray that my future marriage will never have to deal with this and thankfully I don't see any signs of anything like the above situations happening.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

Anything outside of NFP is not acceptable to the Church. So young and unmarried or not they were correct in pointing that out.
Some relivant Scripture, "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matt 10:37)

This is exactly what she didn't want to talk about/discuss/debate here. This is not part of the OP really. Kamikat was making a comparison so as to explain how this thread was making her feel.

I think people you and I need to realize that even IF we are correct, it is certainly not OUR postition to point out the errors of how one is reacting to a situation that you and I cannot possibly understand. This is deeply personal and her priest and her can/will deal with this.

I'm certainly not going to stand by and tell a mother whose child was just raped and killed that she is wrong for not forgiving the person who did these things. Am I correct? Yes. Can I possibly understand what she is going through? No way...I hope never to understand it. So, I would just pray for her and out it in God's hands that she would come to forgive the man.

John

[kamikat]

Not really interested in carrying out an argument. Wasn't my intention. As for your point on the RCC and birth control, it doesn't matter whether the other spouse is RCC or not. Anything outside of NFP is not acceptable to the Church. So young and unmarried or not they were correct in pointing that out.
Yeah, but divorce is also not acceptable in the Catholic church. These people were telling me to commit one mortal sin to correct another mortal sin. They were also contradicting what I had been told by the monsignor at the church I was attending. He told me that the church's official position was that a Catholic can not force a non-Catholic to abide by the Church's teaches. That if the non-Catholic spouse chooses to use birth control on his own, without the Catholic spouse's encouragement, the Catholic spouse is not commiting a mortal sin.

I guess my only last question would be if we spend all of our time hiding our faith how are we going to live out the Great Commission?


You live your faith your way, I'll live my faith my way. I'm trying very hard to be charitable, but you are stretching my limits.

kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

I guess my only last question would be if we spend all of our time hiding our faith how are we going to live out the Great Commission?



You are young and I assume you have never been married. You do not know what it means to love a spouse and for the two of you to become members of each others family. You can't possibly understand the type of pain a divorce can cause. Having been there regrettably, I can only tell you that if I could go back again I would have done everything in my power to keep that from happening. Being of two different faiths is a small matter, in the big picture. Patiently loving a spouse and praying for their soul is a much more Christian approach than divorcing them because they are not of the same faith as you. Again, I do not expect you to understand this. But I know that every one in here who is or has been married thoroughly understands what I am saying.

[Michael the Iconographer]

You live your faith your way, I'll live my faith my way. I'm trying very hard to be charitable, but you are stretching my limits.

kamikat

I have never known you to be anything but charitable! :thumbsup:

[kamikat]

I have never known you to be anything but charitable! :thumbsup:

There's just something about overzealous Catholics, whether on-line or in my own family, that really gets me worked up. This is the same arguement that chased me out of OBOB last summer, then followed me into a forum they had no business being in (whosoever will may come), then they started harrassing me by PM and even followed me into the "struggles by non-Christians" forum when I decided that I had to change my icon to "seeker". The other reason this is getting me worked up is that my mother hasn't received communion in 20 years and she greatly regrets her actions, but has been told she needs to wait until the men in her life die before she can be welcomed back to the church. She was actually told to pray for one of them to die.

kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

There's just something about overzealous Catholics, whether on-line or in my own family, that really gets me worked up. This is the same arguement that chased me out of OBOB last summer, then followed me into a forum they had no business being in (whosoever will may come), then they started harrassing me by PM and even followed me into the "struggles by non-Christians" forum when I decided that I had to change my icon to "seeker". The other reason this is getting me worked up is that my mother hasn't received communion in 20 years and she greatly regrets her actions, but has been told she needs to wait until the men in her life die before she can be welcomed back to the church. She was actually told to pray for one of them to die.
kamikat

The Roman Catholic teaching on divorce was the first teaching I found myself openly dissenting from. If I were still Roman Catholic and wanted to remarry I would be denied reception of the Eucharist! How does that fit into the view of God as being a loving and forgiving Father?

[kamikat]

The Roman Catholic teaching on divorce was the first teaching I found myself openly dissenting from. If I were still Roman Catholic and wanted to remarry I would be denied reception of the Eucharist! How does that fit into the view of God as being a loving and forgiving Father?

Not only that, but she was embarrassed by our pastor. She had tried to get an annullment, but was denied. This pastor had married her and my father, had baptized me and my sister, had been with us through all our sacraments. The Sunday after she was denied the annullment, this pastor told her, during the after Mass handshake, that as an adulteress, she wasn't allowed to receive communion any more. Sure, Dad left her because she was the one having the affair, but there was no need to announce her business to the congragation.
I was also denied the Eucharist and a convalidation of my marriage because I refused to repent of having civil wedding. Nevermind the fact that I was a practicing Wiccan at the time. That would have been totally hypocritical of me to have a Catholic wedding just in case I might return to the church some day. What I did was the honest thing. Just as when the monsignor gave me the business about not having my children baptized as infants. I considered myself an atheist. Was I supposed to promise to a God I didn't believe in at the time to raise them in a church I had no intention of attending?
kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

this pastor told her, during the after Mass handshake, that as an adulteress, she wasn't allowed to receive communion any more.

What happened to the seal of the confessional?

[Annabel Lee]

What happened to the seal of the confessional?

And also, if she had confessed her adultery during confession, the sin would have been forgiven.

I don't understand why the priest told her that she wasn't permitted to receive communion anymore.

[kamikat]

What happened to the seal of the confessional?

Years later, I asked her about it. She claims that she never confessed it, but that it came out in the annullment proceedings. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that for 10 years after that, she didn't step foot in any church and Dad, who's Orthodox, fullfilled his promise when he got married to raise us as Catholics. Dad took us to Mass, made me keep going to CCD and saw that I was confirmed.

kamikat

[kamikat]

And also, if she had confessed her adultery during confession, the sin would have been forgiven.

I don't understand why the priest told her that she wasn't permitted to receive communion anymore.

Because, in order to have been forgiven, she would have had to leave that man. As it is today, she's been married to that man longer than she was married to my father. Even today, if she wanted to receive communion, she would have to divorce my stepfather, then confess to having lived in sin with him for nearly 20 years. OR, if she's lucky, her first husband will die, then she can get married again in the Catholic church.

kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

Because, in order to have been forgiven, she would have had to leave that man. As it is today, she's been married to that man longer than she was married to my father. Even today, if she wanted to receive communion, she would have to divorce my stepfather, then confess to having lived in sin with him for nearly 20 years. OR, if she's lucky, her first husband will die, then she can get married again in the Catholic church.

kamikat

There is something seriously wrong with that equation.

[kamikat]

There is something seriously wrong with that equation.

Yes, there is. And now, this woman, who was once very devout and almost became a religious sister before deciding to get married, has a very warped view of Christ, His Church and the Eucharist. During Christmas Midnight Mass, we had an argument about communion. She now believes that the Eucharist belongs to everybody and the Church has no right to keep the Body of Christ from anyone because the Church is all just man-made laws that they change whenever they want.

kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes, there is. And now, this woman, who was once very devout and almost became a religious sister before deciding to get married, has a very warped view of Christ, His Church and the Eucharist. During Christmas Midnight Mass, we had an argument about communion. She now believes that the Eucharist belongs to everybody and the Church has no right to keep the Body of Christ from anyone because the Church is all just man-made laws that they change whenever they want.

kamikat

Can you blame her? As I said, the whole thing with divorce was the first thing I found myself openly dissenting with Rome over in my conversion process. Yes, divorce is destructive to a family and to one's life. But there are times when it does happen. The role of the Church is not to play Torquemade (The Grand Inquisitor) and point it's finger at you and say "you sinner are damned to hell." The role of the church is to embrace the fact that we are all sinners, thus in need of God's grace and mercy, and to extend that mercy to us! I was seriously amazed by how much my parish opened it's arms and embraced me after my own divorce. Yes, there was penance involved, but even that was done in a very loving manner. My priest made the habit of stopping in to my work to chat with me atleast once a week, and often more than that, just to chat with me and make sure I was doing ok. I soon discovered I had many, many friends in my parish and they all deeply cared about me. And after the pennance was finished I was allowed to return to the chalice. While it is unfortunate that your mom has become so bitter, I can understand how her experience has made her that way. Maybe Rome should take a look at the tree growing in it's eye before they point out the speck in your mom's eye.

[kamikat]

Yes, divorce is destructive to a family and to one's life. But there are times when it does happen. The role of the Church is not to play Torquemade (The Grand Inquisitor) and point it's finger at you and say "you sinner are damned to hell." The role of the church is to embrace the fact that we are all sinners, thus in need of God's grace and mercy, and to extend that mercy to us!

:amen: Preach it, brother!
I'm glad that your church was so kind during your experience. I heard on a recent audio program that the Protesant church is the church of faith, the Catholic church is the church of law and the Orthodox Church is the church of love. You have just shown an example of that.

kamikat

[Annabel Lee]

A few months back the subject of 'economia' came up.
Because of this Eastern Orthodox concept, love, mercy and compassion remain more in control than absolute law.
The suffering human being comes before the LAW.

I'm guessing economia would have been applied in Kamikat's mother's case.

Maybe someone knowledgeable could expand on the concept?

[kamikat]

I'm guessing economia would have been applied in Kamikat's mother's case.


Based on some questions I've asked my priest and some other info, if mom and dad had both been Orthodox, there would have been a period of penance and seperation from communion, then mom would have been allowed to marry my stepdad. Mom didn't "run around". Mom has been married to this man for over 20 years. The problem is that Catholic teaching can set up a sort of parent/child relationship with it's flock. The church, as parent, sets up strict rules abuot behavior, some things happen and the child brakes those rules. The parent thinks that if the rules are bent for one child, then all the other children will start crossing the line. However, a good parent understands that every child is different and what works with one child, may not work with another one.

kamikat

[drpepper101]

The children ultimately learn virtue and other things by the example set by their parents. If the Parents love each other, this is a poewrful message. If the wife loves her unbelieving husband, this can be an even more powerful example, because it is the example we find in Christ Himself.

Does that mean you think it is okay and a demonstration of love to sit around and belittle your spouse's faith at all, let alone, in front of your children?
I would also take issue with stating that words don't mean anything. As scripture says, man does not live by bread alone but by every word that issues from the mouth of the Lord. Words can be profoundly meaningful, in both the positive and negative respects. A positive comment to someone having a bad day can make the entire thing worth while, and a well placed insult can tear someone apart inside.
If words were meaningless then why do you think St. Paul spends so much time writing about the importance and difficulty of controlling our tongues?

[drpepper101]

This is exactly what she didn't want to talk about/discuss/debate here. This is not part of the OP really. Kamikat was making a comparison so as to explain how this thread was making her feel.

I think people you and I need to realize that even IF we are correct, it is certainly not OUR postition to point out the errors of how one is reacting to a situation that you and I cannot possibly understand. This is deeply personal and her priest and her can/will deal with this.

I'm certainly not going to stand by and tell a mother whose child was just raped and killed that she is wrong for not forgiving the person who did these things. Am I correct? Yes. Can I possibly understand what she is going through? No way...I hope never to understand it. So, I would just pray for her and out it in God's hands that she would come to forgive the man.

John

What I was addressing was the fact that she had said because someone was young and unmarried they were wrong. As St. Paul tells Timothy, don't let anyone put you down simply because you are young. As a Catholic I find it refreshing when younger people stand up firmly for what the Church teaches. I felt she implied as if the young people were misrepresenting the Church's teachings and she was in fact correct. I merely pointed out that the Church's teachings on BC are firm, and whether one's spouse is RCC or not has no bearing.

[drpepper101]

Yeah, but divorce is also not acceptable in the Catholic church. These people were telling me to commit one mortal sin to correct another mortal sin. They were also contradicting what I had been told by the monsignor at the church I was attending. He told me that the church's official position was that a Catholic can not force a non-Catholic to abide by the Church's teaches. That if the non-Catholic spouse chooses to use birth control on his own, without the Catholic spouse's encouragement, the Catholic spouse is not commiting a mortal sin.



You live your faith your way, I'll live my faith my way. I'm trying very hard to be charitable, but you are stretching my limits.

kamikat

That's not what the Catechism has to say on the matter, but again I'm not here to argue with you. Nor was I even speifically addressing you.

[ThePilgrim]

"As St. Paul tells Timothy, don't let anyone put you down simply because you are young."

Look at that in context. St. Paul is telling St. Timothy, who was a *bishop* not to let anyone look down on him because of his age. You don't have the office of bishop, and neither do they.

[drpepper101]

You are young and I assume you have never been married. You do not know what it means to love a spouse and for the two of you to become members of each others family. You can't possibly understand the type of pain a divorce can cause. Having been there regrettably, I can only tell you that if I could go back again I would have done everything in my power to keep that from happening. Being of two different faiths is a small matter, in the big picture. Patiently loving a spouse and praying for their soul is a much more Christian approach than divorcing them because they are not of the same faith as you. Again, I do not expect you to understand this. But I know that every one in here who is or has been married thoroughly understands what I am saying.

Why don't you read the OP and respond to the question I asked, this has nothing to do with it. I speifically asked about an intentional effort and a refusal to amend behavior. No where did I state that someone should get divorced solely on the grounds they were of a different faith.

[ThePilgrim]

Why don't you read the OP and respond to the question I asked, this has nothing to do with it. I speifically asked about an intentional effort and a refusal to amend behavior. No where did I state that someone should get divorced solely on the grounds they were of a different faith.
If you're so keen on what the CCC teaches, doesn't it bother you that it would not support divorce in the situation in which you're advocating it?

[Xpycoctomos]

What I was addressing was the fact that she had said because someone was young and unmarried they were wrong. As St. Paul tells Timothy, don't let anyone put you down simply because you are young. As a Catholic I find it refreshing when younger people stand up firmly for what the Church teaches. I felt she implied as if the young people were misrepresenting the Church's teachings and she was in fact correct. I merely pointed out that the Church's teachings on BC are firm, and whether one's spouse is RCC or not has no bearing.

Right dude, But this sisn't about BC. and it was clear that she didn't want to talk about it. It has nothing at all to do with how strongly one stands for their values. I admire that in any Christian group (and find it everywhre, especially in protestant denominations)... but it also says something about discernment to know when one should speak up or realize that their words will have no positive affect becuase they have no experience to back up what they are saying. I'm not going to go to a single person for advice on marriage, but rather to married people who are devout in the Church. Similarly, I am not going to chastise someone for doing such and such a sin if I have no idea what it is liek to be in that position... especially if I do not know them well and they didn't even solicit my help. That's all. I wasn't questioning weather you were correct or not on BC.

John

[drpepper101]

If you're so keen on what the CCC teaches, doesn't it bother you that it would not support divorce in the situation in which you're advocating it?

I'm not supporting divorce, St. Paul tells us there is no martial bond when a non-Christian does not desire the marriage to continue. Sitting around intentionally and unapologicially belittling someone's faith is clearly not working towards continuing the marriage. There can be no divorce when there never was a marriage.

[ThePilgrim]

I'm not supporting divorce, St. Paul tells us there is no martial bond when a non-Christian does not desire the marriage to continue. Sitting around intentionally and unapologicially belittling someone's faith is clearly not working towards continuing the marriage. There can be no divorce when there never was a marriage.
Still, what you're saying goes against what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. You can rationalize it all you want, but it's the case.

[drpepper101]

Right dude, But this sisn't about BC. and it was clear that she didn't want to talk about it. It has nothing at all to do with how strongly one stands for their values. I admire that in any Christian group (and find it everywhre, especially in protestant denominations)... but it also says something about discernment to know when one should speak up or realize that their words will have no positive affect becuase they have no experience to back up what they are saying. I'm not going to go to a single person for advice on marriage, but rather to married people who are devout in the Church. Similarly, I am not going to chastise someone for doing such and such a sin if I have no idea what it is liek to be in that position... especially if I do not know them well and they didn't even solicit my help. That's all. I wasn't questioning weather you were correct or not on BC.

John

While I respect your position the danger I see it that is falling into the idea it's okay not to stand up for truth or morality because someone might be offended by it. There are times when wrong is wrong, and if someone is saying otherwise they need to be told so. I don't think we should fall into pride because we may boast more experience than someone else, nor does that fact alone make the experienced one right on the younger one wrong. My father's life did not get turned around like a priest about 15 years his younger gave him the dress down of a life time. He was, at first, very offended that someone that young would have the audicity to tell him about his life. After a few days he realized the priest was completely right, and it really changed his life for the better. Experience is what is it is, and the same can be said of book learning. There is only one truth that comes from God, and that is what we will be held accountable to in the end. One does not need old age or experience to know what that truth is. I think we can all recall a few times when someone of great experience recounted some bit of human wisdom that did not line up with Godly truth. If someone is wrong about something then say why they are wrong, addressing irrelvant personal traits has nothing to do with it. Most people wouldn't accept "they don't know what they're talking about because they're women, or because of their race" as a good means to discredit something, so why should age be held any differently? As a final point, many times the young have a refreshing "right or wrong" way of looking that things that the older don't like to hear because it gets in the way of their excuses for doing things they know are wrong.

[drpepper101]

Still, what you're saying goes against what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. You can rationalize it all you want, but it's the case.

Well you're wrong. That's why there is an
annulment process, and I tend to think if your basis for requesting an annullment was your spouse's refusal to allow you to practice the faith it would likely be granted.

[drpepper101]

Anyway, nice talking to you all but if I wanted to read Catholic bashing I would just order some Jack Chick tracts.

[ThePilgrim]

Anyway, nice talking to you all but if I wanted to read Catholic bashing I would just order some Jack Chick tracts.
You're not the most courteous person in the world, are you?

[InnerPhyre]

Annulment - Catholic speak for "divorce."

[choirfiend]

Hmmm, maybe move this to a debate forum. Only Orthodox may debate here.

[InnerPhyre]

Good idea

[kamikat]

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

Forgive me!
I should have staid away from this thread when I said I was going to.

kamikat