struggling with a concept

[kamikat]

I guess maybe it's two inter-related concepts. And, yes, before anyone says anything, I have e-mailed my spiritual father.;)
I was listening to one of the lectures from http://www.stcatherinechurch.org/audio/ where the concept of atonement was discussed as Orthodox vs the Western concept of "legal transaction". He also discussed how, since God is unchanging in His love for us, our sins cause Him no sadness or pain. If this is so, then who is damaged by sin, just ourselves? If we are asking God for forgiveness, doesn't that mean that nwe have offended Him? I'm sure I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here. The "act of contrition" keeps running though my head (all you former Catholic know what I'm saying). At the end of Catholic confession, the act of contrition is the prayer that the penantent says
" my God,I am heartily sorry forhaving offended Thee,and I detest all my sins,because I dread the loss of heaven,and the pains of hell;but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance,
and to amend my life.
Amen."
Would this prayer be totally foreign to Orthodoxy or am I missing something?


kamikat, who is very confused this morning:help:

[eoe]

Sin does indeed only injure us. It moves us farther from God. I do however think that in some cases people go a bit too far in trying to seperate the two concepts tho.
Imagine this. If you throw a brick at someone and miss, the brick hits a window and the glass falls on you and cuts you while they remain unscathed - have you injured them? No. Should you still apologize? Yes.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

To just add to what eoe said, the prayer you quoted is not an Orthodox prayer, also, to my knowledge, the OC does not teach that our sins wound Jesus, but rather just hurt ourselves.

[Theophorus]

It is also taught that sins are cosmic in proportion. That individual sins do effect all of creation in some manner. As a result, no sin is entirely personal.

[rusmeister]

Sin does indeed only injure us. It moves us farther from God. I do however think that in some cases people go a bit too far in trying to seperate the two concepts tho.
Imagine this. If you throw a brick at someone and miss, the brick hits a window and the glass falls on you and cuts you while they remain unscathed - have you injured them? No. Should you still apologize? Yes.

Well said! In a lewisian vein I might add that we cannot make God "sad" or "sorry" in any sense that might be understood as make Him suffer or make His glory less, although some might wish to ("The Great Divorce"). That doesn't mean that God cannot be offended by our sins or not feel sorrow. After all, Jesus did weep. Is that helpful? :scratch:

[Xpycoctomos]

" my God,I am heartily sorry forhaving offended Thee,and I detest all my sins,because I dread the loss of heaven,and the pains of hell;but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance,
and to amend my life.
Amen."
Would this prayer be totally foreign to Orthodoxy or am I missing something?

I like it.

Penence certainly exists in the Orthodox Church (often called obediences whreas an actual "penance" for us is harsher and implies forging the Eucharist for a certain amount of time... at least in the Russian tradition.. but that's just semantics) although from my understanding an obediance (penance) tends to be more practical (something you do... a new habit you start or an old one you drop) in order to make baby steps toward changing the action (although it can certianly include prayers). While I don't believe such a concept is foreign the Catholic Church, it seems that traditionally a penance was centered around how many of which certain prayers you are to say and then you're done with it. I don't mind that idea at all... but I do feel it is lacking if that's it.

[MariaRegina]

Read Father Thomas Hopko's little booklet on confession: IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS.

Sin is truly cosmic.

It affects the whole cosmos.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

[choirfiend]

"loss of heaven"

as if it's something you obtain or even already have....it's a gift, so you can't lose something you don't own...
"offend Thee" it is offensive only in as much as it is a distortion or maltreatment of one or more of His Creation--but that is injurous to US, not causing of injury to God.

[MariaRegina]

From the Antiochian Service Book (p. 23)


O Lord our God, good and merciful,
I acknowledge all my sins which I have committed
every day of my life, in thought, word, and deed;
in body and soul alike.
I am heartily sorry that I have ever offended Thee,
and I sincerely repent;
with tears I humbly pray Thee, O Lord:
of Thy mercy forgive me all my past trangressions
and absolve me from them.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy Grace,
to amend my way of life and to sin no more;
that I may walk in the way of the righteous
and offer praise and glory
to the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Amen.

[Xpycoctomos]

Read Father Thomas Hopko's little booklet on confession: IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS.

Sin is truly cosmic.

It affects the whole cosmos.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

This was a huge point for me when I became Orthodox. It rocked my world when I learned this. it makes so much sense though that I wrote a paper on the Church and how it is a Community from the aspect of every sacrament. it was something that was lacking (although not completely to be sure) in the my Protestant experience.

[eoe]

Has any of this helped, Kamikat?

[kamikat]

No, I gotta admit to being more confused than ever. I think I'll just wait until Father e-mails me back.

kamikat

[rusmeister]

In the meantime, Kamikat, why don't you read "The Great Divorce" by Lewis? It's an hour or 2 read, and addresses the idea of people and sin trying to cause harm (pain or suffering through pity) to Christians and/or God. (Especially the Actor/Dwarf!)
That certainly helped me understand the idea.

[kamikat]

Well, Father suggested that I reread a reading assignment from a month ago. I think I've come to the conclusion that either I'm missing something or there's a language barrier. East and West are using the same words to describe something, but they have different meanings. Perhaps it's just something that takes time to sink in.
kamikat

[MariaRegina]

Well, Father suggested that I reread a reading assignment from a month ago. I think I've come to the conclusion that either I'm missing something or there's a language barrier. East and West are using the same words to describe something, but they have different meanings. Perhaps it's just something that takes time to sink in.
kamikat

My spiritual father really made we work and study hard as a catechumen.

I had to read lots of books but one stood out from the rest:

For the Life of the World by Father Alexander Schmemann, may his memory be eternal.

Father had me read the book, then read it a second time and highlight it, then read it a third time and outline it. I felt like I was in a college class. Then I finally understood the difference between the Eastern and the Western perspectives.

Another excellent book that really helped was
Common Ground by Father Bajis (available through Light and Life). He finds similarities where possible but also points to the different points of views in the East and in the West.


As always, ask your priest.

[kamikat]

Sometimes, I feel overwhelmed at all the materials I'm supposed to be working on. Right now, I'm reading "Great Lent" by Father Alexander Schmemann, but I'll add the books you recommend to the list.
kamikat

[Xpycoctomos]

Another excellent book that really helped was
Common Ground by Father Bajis (available through Light and Life). He finds similarities where possible but also points to the different points of views in the East and in the West.

THANK YOU for recommending this book!!! I always thought I was the only one who cared about or even knew of this book. I think this is a must-read (along with other great books) for any westerner who his thinking of becoming Orthodox. Truly under-rated.

John

[Monica, child of God]

I guess maybe it's two inter-related concepts. And, yes, before anyone says anything, I have e-mailed my spiritual father.;)
I was listening to one of the lectures from http://www.stcatherinechurch.org/audio/ where the concept of atonement was discussed as Orthodox vs the Western concept of "legal transaction". He also discussed how, since God is unchanging in His love for us, our sins cause Him no sadness or pain. If this is so, then who is damaged by sin, just ourselves? If we are asking God for forgiveness, doesn't that mean that nwe have offended Him? I'm sure I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here. The "act of contrition" keeps running though my head (all you former Catholic know what I'm saying). At the end of Catholic confession, the act of contrition is the prayer that the penantent says
" my God,I am heartily sorry forhaving offended Thee,and I detest all my sins,because I dread the loss of heaven,and the pains of hell;but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance,
and to amend my life.
Amen."
Would this prayer be totally foreign to Orthodoxy or am I missing something?


kamikat, who is very confused this morning:help:

I hope my thoughts do not confuse you more but I wanted to share something with you that helps me understand it. I have a feeling that the speakers were reactingto a particular view of the Atonment. This popular Western concept of the Atonement envisions God as a feudal over lord whose honor has been infinitely offended by our sin. In order to maintain His infinite justice, our sins must be punished. Therefore He sends His Son into the world to bear the punishment for our sin on the cross as a Man. God pours out His wrath on Christ instead of on us. With this accomplished, God can forgive us and retain His honor and justice. God's wrath is satisfied.

The problems with this view are:

a) God is not bound by the external concept of "justice." In this view God cannot forgive-- even if He wanted to-- without "payment."

Well, God is not bound by anything and He forgives us freely when we repent (Psalm 103:2-4; Psalm 130:3-4; 2 Chronicles 7:14).

b) Further, it introduces a separation between God the Father and the Son which is not Scriptural. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19).

c) It sees God reconciling Himself to the world rather than the world to Himself. It is we who need to change, not God. God is always love, abounding in mercy and compassion.

d) The word satisfaction does not appear in the New Testament.

So if a person has this view of the Atonement, they would see God as wounded and offended in a way that is not Scriptural. I think (and this is my opionion) there is a sense in which God is “hurt” by our sins but it has nothing to do with the above model:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” --Matthew 23:37

The lament of Christ over Jerusalm is not one of “offended honor” but of loss of relationship. God created us for relationship with Him and has done everything in His power to restore that relationship. So when we (like Jerusalem) refuse to be gathered under the healing wings of God’s love (Malachi 4:2), I do believe that God laments as we see in Matthew 23. It is just not the personal offense that we see in some Western theology.

Ignore this if it confuses you more :)

Monica

[kamikat]

Thanks, Monica! Every little bit is helping. I also need to reread the passage my priest recommended. However, I lent the book to a friend's husband. I should be getting it back today or tomorrow. Evidently, he is tearing through it and wants to come to church with me this weekend.

kamikat

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Evidently, he is tearing through it and wants to come to church with me this weekend.

Very cool! :thumbsup:

[Theophorus]

Thanks, Monica! Every little bit is helping. I also need to reread the passage my priest recommended. However, I lent the book to a friend's husband. I should be getting it back today or tomorrow. Evidently, he is tearing through it and wants to come to church with me this weekend.

kamikat

What book?

[MariaRegina]

Thanks, Monica! Every little bit is helping. I also need to reread the passage my priest recommended. However, I lent the book to a friend's husband. I should be getting it back today or tomorrow. Evidently, he is tearing through it and wants to come to church with me this weekend.

kamikat

Maybe you could ask him to read the passage and then explain the answer to you.

I will pray for your friend's husband. Is your friend also interested in Orthodoxy?

[kamikat]

What book?


"The Orthodox Faith", by Fr Thomas Hopko, Volume 1 "Doctrine".
https://secure.oca.org/ocpc/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=27

kamikat

[kamikat]

I will pray for your friend's husband. Is your friend also interested in Orthodoxy?

Not really. He was a lapsed Catholic and she was a practicing Catholic when they got married. Shortly after the wedding, he became more interested in his faith and she became less interested in faith and left the church. She has said that for the last 6 or 7 years, he'll get a whim to try out churches, attend a couple for a month or two, then drop it. She never joins him at these churches. What peaked both of their interest initially was when I mentioned that Liam liked the Orthodox service and called it the singing church. I told them that the whole service was sung and was kind of like an old Latin Mass, but in English. That when he asked for more info. She's asked me a few questions and seemed to like my answers, but she says she's very much against organized religion.

kamikat