Baptism question

[Dust and Ashes]

We got an email from Father yesterday giving us the news officially that we are being recieved into the Church on Holy Saturday. He asked for a description of our baptisms and I told him that I was baptised in a Missionary Baptist Church, Trinitarian formula but that if it wouldn't be a problem, I would prefer to be recieved by baptism.

My wife was baptised in a Missionary Church in Northern Indiana, triple immersion, Trinitarian formula and will be recieved by Chrismation.

My question is this: If I am recieved by Chrismation only, will I likely face times where I won't be able to commune at some Churches because I was not baptised Orthodox? I want to be baptised but if Father doesn't want to rebaptise, I will accept that.

[Akathist]

There is no Orthodox Church that will not recognize your Chrismation. The decision is made by your Bishop actually, not your Priest. (Though I am sure his discussion with the Bishop will have influence.) I can not imagine any Orthodox Church ruling that your Bishop was wrong in whatever decision he makes.

I wanted to be received by baptism even though I had a previous trinitarian baptism. My case was "different" in that my infant baptism was a sprinkling with trinitarian formula than an adult baptism by immersion that was not trinitarian. I think that between the two I might have been brought in by Chrismation, but I wrote a letter to my Priest and Bishop (one letter addressed to both of them given to my Priest to share with the Bishop if he felt it appropriate) that explained my desire to have an Orthodox Baptism.

[Eusebios]

Brad,
I can't imagine that you would ever run into any kind of difficulty. I totally understand your desire to be baptized thoug and hope it works out for you.
In Xp,
Eusebios,
:bow:

[ThePilgrim]

We got an email from Father yesterday giving us the news officially that we are being recieved into the Church on Holy Saturday. He asked for a description of our baptisms and I told him that I was baptised in a Missionary Baptist Church, Trinitarian formula but that if it wouldn't be a problem, I would prefer to be recieved by baptism.

My wife was baptised in a Missionary Church in Northern Indiana, triple immersion, Trinitarian formula and will be recieved by Chrismation.

My question is this: If I am recieved by Chrismation only, will I likely face times where I won't be able to commune at some Churches because I was not baptised Orthodox? I want to be baptised but if Father doesn't want to rebaptise, I will accept that.
No, I can't imagine that you'd run into any problems, unless you went to a schismatic Church that would want to rebaptize even other Orthodox ;-)

If anyone ever did give you trouble (which they won't), point out that St. Elizabeth the New Martyr was received by chrismation.

I've communed in Antiochian, Greek, Russian, and Romanian parishes and no one has ever not accepted my chrismation.

Grace and peace,
John

[ByzantineDixie]

I am told that one who is not baptized in the Orthodox church but received by Chrismation is not to commune at Mt. Athos. Not a problem for your wife but if you ever go there...

My priest is a convert and was received by Chrismation at the instruction of the Bishop and is not to commune at Mt. Athos...he says this is a great scandal in the Church.

But as far as regular congregations it should not be an issue.-----R

[EricTheRed]

I am glad I have never been baptised before. I get to be baptised Orthodox style hehehe :)

[gzt]

There would be no problems, except perhaps with schismatic traditionalists.

[MariaRegina]

I am glad I have never been baptised before. I get to be baptised Orthodox style hehehe :)

There are some Greek Orthodox priests who like to baptize in a lake or river. Those can be very cold, especially the lake near Spokane, Washington. Snow melt, folks. :eek:

[rusmeister]

Yeah, I was baptised Catholic as a baby. Called my mom before Chrismation: "Are you sure, Mom, are you sure?"
That Mt Athos thing sounds kinda far-fetched.

[Dust and Ashes]

I am told that one who is not baptized in the Orthodox church but received by Chrismation is not to commune at Mt. Athos. Not a problem for your wife but if you ever go there...

My priest is a convert and was received by Chrismation at the instruction of the Bishop and is not to commune at Mt. Athos...he says this is a great scandal in the Church.

But as far as regular congregations it should not be an issue.-----R

That is definately a concern for me as I want to visit Mt. Athos someday but if I wouldn't be in communion with them, there's no reason to go. :(

[ByzantineDixie]

That is definately a concern for me as I want to visit Mt. Athos someday but if I wouldn't be in communion with them, there's no reason to go. :(

The decision is your Bishop's to make...I thought my priest said he tried to be baptized but the Bishop would not make the exception. I could be wrong though...maybe your priest would talk to your Bishop in light of your desire to visit Mt. Athos?

[Gnisios]

That is definately a concern for me as I want to visit Mt. Athos someday but if I wouldn't be in communion with them, there's no reason to go. :(

No problem at all my brother. Your chrismation will be fully accepted and don't listen to rumours: OF COURSE you can visit Athos and be treated as fellow Orthodox.

PS: Remember; without your wife....this time you should be the one to leave her LOL

:thumbsup:

[EricTheRed]

There are some Greek Orthodox priests who like to baptize in a lake or river. Those can be very cold, especially the lake near Spokane, Washington. Snow melt, folks. :eek:

Dont worry I am OCA and in Texas. I dont have to worry about that. :thumbsup:

[Dust and Ashes]

No problem at all my brother. Your chrismation will be fully accepted and don't listen to rumours: OF COURSE you can visit Athos and be treated as fellow Orthodox.

PS: Remember; without your wife....this time you should be the one to leave her LOL

:thumbsup:

That puts my mind at ease. My cousin, who is a very serious inquirer, and I want to visit a monastery soon. We talked about St. Anthony's in AZ but isn't there one in the SE US somewhere? GA maybe?

[Gnisios]

That puts my mind at ease. My cousin, who is a very serious inquirer, and I want to visit a monastery soon. We talked about St. Anthony's in AZ but isn't there one in the SE US somewhere? GA maybe?

I don't know much about monasteries in the US. Maybe an American brother/sister can help you. :)

[repentant]

I am told that one who is not baptized in the Orthodox church but received by Chrismation is not to commune at Mt. Athos. Not a problem for your wife but if you ever go there...

My priest is a convert and was received by Chrismation at the instruction of the Bishop and is not to commune at Mt. Athos...he says this is a great scandal in the Church.

But as far as regular congregations it should not be an issue.-----R

And where did you hear this from?

[repentant]

That is definately a concern for me as I want to visit Mt. Athos someday but if I wouldn't be in communion with them, there's no reason to go. :(


I don't think it's a problem. But even just going to Mt. Athos to talk to future Saints would be enough reason to go for me...;)

[repentant]

That puts my mind at ease. My cousin, who is a very serious inquirer, and I want to visit a monastery soon. We talked about St. Anthony's in AZ but isn't there one in the SE US somewhere? GA maybe?


I would definitely visit St. Anthony's if you can. But Elder Ephraim has a few Monastery's spread across the US. I know there are some in North Carolina, South Carolina and Florida if you want SE.

US Monastery's (http://omna.malf.net/goansa.htm)

[choirfiend]

http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/Map.htm#14

http://www.monastery.org/

http://www.saintsmaryandmarthaorthodoxmonastery.org/

There are a few that are closer than AZ...

[Gnisios]

he says this is a great scandal in the Church.

Forget that brother. I assure you there is no problem at all. Actually, it was a much greater scandal when prince Charles was allowed to baptize (as godfather) a boy in Athos although not an Eastern Orthodox himself!

[EricTheRed]

Forget that brother. I assure you there is no problem at all. Actually, it was a much greater scandal when prince Charles was allowed to baptize (as godfather) a boy in Athos although not an Eastern Orthodox himself!

I have never heard that. That is disturbing indeed

[repentant]

Forget that brother. I assure you there is no problem at all. Actually, it was a much greater scandal when prince Charles was allowed to baptize (as godfather) a boy in Athos although not an Eastern Orthodox himself!


:scratch:

[Gnisios]

And not only by the way: Link (http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/paulgreece1967album.htm)

You will find the photos under the baptism of their daughter Maria Olympia, Princess of Greece+Denmark *1996 header. Can someone from the Ecumenical Patriarchate explain please why HAH the Ecumenical Patriarch who presided over the baptism allowed a non-Orthodox to be the godfather in front of his very own eyes? Under what canonical right Your All Holiness? I'm not pushing any buttons, but we sure have an open issue here. :scratch:

[Gnisios]

Deleted by author

[MariaRegina]

And not only by the way: Link (http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/paulgreece1967album.htm)

You will find all pictures under the baptism of their daughter Maria Olympia, Princess of Greece+Denmark *1996 header. Can someone from the Ecumenical Patriarchate explain please why HAH the Ecumenical Patriarch who presided over the baptism allowed a non-Orthodox to be the godfather in front of his eyes? I'm not pushing any buttons here, but we sure have an open issue here. :scratch:


Here in Los Angeles, the Antiochians and the Greek Orthodox have been allowing Catholics to serve as Godparents at Orthodox Baptisms as long as there is an Orthodox Godparent also. Only the Orthodox Godparents actually participate in the Baptism, while the non-Orthodox Godparent will help the child dress, but not go up to the baptismal font.

The big problem is that, at several baptisms that I attended, the non-Orthodox Godparent said that they had every intention of taking their Godchild to their non-Orthodox church to receive Communion.

In one case, the child became very confused because of this practice. He responded during Orthodox Sunday school that he was an "Orthodox Roman Catholic".

His fellow Orthodox students, responded,
"What do you mean, you cannot be both a Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Christian at the same time?"

The child said, "Yes, I can and I receive communion in both churches."

Unfortunately, a fight ensued, he was injured, and the mother of the child withdrew him from the Orthodox Church and then raised him in the Catholic Church.

[Gnisios]

Here in Los Angeles, the Antiochians and the Greek Orthodox have been allowing Catholics to serve as Godparents at Orthodox Baptisms as long as there is an Orthodox Godparent also. Only the Orthodox Godparents actually participate in the Baptism, while the non-Orthodox Godparent will help the child dress, but not go up to the baptismal font.

The big problem is that, at several baptisms that I attended, the non-Orthodox Godparent said that they had every intention of taking their Godchild to their non-Orthodox church to receive Communion.

In one case, the child became very confused because of this practice. He responded during Orthodox Sunday school that he was an "Orthodox Roman Catholic".

His fellow Orthodox students, responded,
"What do you mean, you cannot be both a Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Christian at the same time?"

The child said, "Yes, I can and I receive communion in both churches."

Unfortunately, a fight ensued, he was injured, and the mother of the child withdrew him from the Orthodox Church and then raised him in the Catholic Church.

I understand what you mean.....the problems are obvious unfortunately. My point however is that all these strange and modern practices are very much against our Holy Tradition. Shall we stay silent?

[MariaRegina]

I understand what you mean.....the problems are obvious unfortunately. My point however is that all these strange and modern practices are very much against our Holy Tradition. Shall we stay silent?

We need to pray all the more.

Is Los Angeles alone in these aberrations?

[ByzantineDixie]

And where did you hear this from?

My priest. He lived in Greece for six years and has been to Mt. Athos many times.

[prodromos]

That is definately a concern for me as I want to visit Mt. Athos someday but if I wouldn't be in communion with them, there's no reason to go. :(
It's simple. If anyone asks if you were baptized or chrismated just tell them in all truthfullness that you were received by baptism. There is no need to mention that it was later filled with grace at your chrismation. I have to admit that some very traditionally minded monks have caused me some anxiety over my own chrismation. I've come to understand that it really is none of their business how I was received and since it is my bishops view that my heterodox baptism has been filled with grace at my chrismation then I have received an Orthodox baptism, it simply took a few decades from go to woah :).

I haven't had Holy Communion on Mt Athos simply because I was not adequately prepared, either not having been to confession recently or not being aware of the stricter fasting requirements prior to Communion on the Holy Mountain (no food from the previous afternoon). Since most visits to Mount Athos are limited to a duration of four days, it really isn't likely to be an issue anyway, but if you do wish to have Holy Communion on Mount Athos and have fulfilled the requirements of confession and fasting, then if anyone asks how you were received into the church simply tell them baptism, chrismation and receiving Christ's Body and Blood.

John.

[Gnisios]

I've come to understand that it really is none of their business how I was received and since it is my bishops view that my heterodox baptism has been filled with grace at my chrismation then I have received an Orthodox baptism, it simply took a few decades from go to woah.


Exactly. Don't need to go in details but I'm preety sure you won't have any difficulties. In case you are still worried, just PM before your trip there and I'll call my spiritual father in Athos to assist you. The same stands for every brother who has doubts or fears.

[Gnisios]

Is Los Angeles alone in these aberrations?

No I'm afraid :(

[Greg the byzantine]

Here in Los Angeles, the Antiochians and the Greek Orthodox have been allowing Catholics to serve as Godparents at Orthodox Baptisms as long as there is an Orthodox Godparent also. Only the Orthodox Godparents actually participate in the Baptism, while the non-Orthodox Godparent will help the child dress, but not go up to the baptismal font.

The big problem is that, at several baptisms that I attended, the non-Orthodox Godparent said that they had every intention of taking their Godchild to their non-Orthodox church to receive Communion.

In one case, the child became very confused because of this practice. He responded during Orthodox Sunday school that he was an "Orthodox Roman Catholic".

His fellow Orthodox students, responded,
"What do you mean, you cannot be both a Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Christian at the same time?"

The child said, "Yes, I can and I receive communion in both churches."

Unfortunately, a fight ensued, he was injured, and the mother of the child withdrew him from the Orthodox Church and then raised him in the Catholic Church.
Yikes :o . This makes the fighting among the parish council members at my church look like a small dispute. I take their idiotic fighting about money, over a dispute like that any day.

It seems that parishes here on the right coast don't do this, because when a godparent aproaches the priest to set a date for the baptism, the priest almost always asks to see the godparents baptismal certificate (must be from one of the canonical orthodox churches) unless the priest already knows them. That and you must have paid your membership dues for the year at the parish where you wish to baptise the baby. This is true at least for my parents experience (they have 10 Godchildren in total)

[choirfiend]

Well, as always, it is best to work on any problems from within. Once you separate yourself and place yourself outside, there is nothing that can be altered and in the meantime, you're outside. What a waste of zealous indignation.

[ByzantineDixie]

It's simple. If anyone asks if you were baptized or chrismated just tell them in all truthfullness that you were received by baptism. There is no need to mention that it was later filled with grace at your chrismation. I have to admit that some very traditionally minded monks have caused me some anxiety over my own chrismation. I've come to understand that it really is none of their business how I was received and since it is my bishops view that my heterodox baptism has been filled with grace at my chrismation then I have received an Orthodox baptism, it simply took a few decades from go to woah :).



This is excellent. I went through a similar anxiety recently (and I am not even Chrismated yet!) but easily came to comfort in the decision of my Bishop and his role in the Church. A Chrismation is the real deal...no partial Grace conveyed...but the Sacrament in all its fullness.

BTW...your suggestion regarding what to do on Mt. Athos is similar to what I have heard others uses as well. Fortunately for me this is not an issue...however I hear that sometimes they bring relics down from the Mt. and put them on a boat so that women can come and venerate them...now that would be something I would like to do.

[Photini]

That puts my mind at ease. My cousin, who is a very serious inquirer, and I want to visit a monastery soon. We talked about St. Anthony's in AZ but isn't there one in the SE US somewhere? GA maybe?

We have about 3 monasteries here in FL.

These are the 2 that I visit sometimes:

www.panagiavlahernon.org (http://www.panagiavlahernon.org)

www.holyannunciation.org (http://www.holyannunciation.org)

[Gnisios]

Well, as always, it is best to work on any problems from within. Once you separate yourself and place yourself outside, there is nothing that can be altered and in the meantime, you're outside. What a waste of zealous indignation.

I really wish it was so simple my beloved sister. In fact, if you try to solve some issues from within, you'll find yourself kicked out of the door with a tag on you. :(

[choirfiend]

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints/maximos_confessor.htm

The saint accepts all persecutions; the Holy Spirit will prevail.

[Gnisios]

The saint accepts all persecutions; the Holy Spirit will prevail.

Amen to that!

[Dust and Ashes]

Well, I emailed Father and told him that my reservations were based purely on the concern of being refused communion at more traditionalist Churches rather than any worries about Chrismation filling my heterodox baptism with grace. I told him that I also had reservations about being rebaptised since my Trinitarian baptism did follow a genuine conversion and decision to follow Christ. I told him that I would leave it up to him and that I would accept whatever he decided with no reservations.

That's what I should have done to start with. :doh:

[Gnisios]

Well, I emailed Father and told him that my reservations were based purely on the concern of being refused communion at more traditionalist Churches rather than any worries about Chrismation filling my heterodox baptism with grace. I told him that I also had reservations about being rebaptised since my Trinitarian baptism did follow a genuine conversion and decision to follow Christ. I told him that I would leave it up to him and that I would accept whatever he decided with no reservations.

That's what I should have done to start with. :doh:

You did the right thing. However, the situation in Athos isn't just like any traditional Church out there. Remember that although many fathers of the Holy Mountain come from very 'heavy' Old-Calanderist and exclusive Churches, they have to follow the Encyclicals of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which they promised to recognize and uphold. Thus, every Orthodox Christian, convert or not, has all the rights to be admitted and partake of the Holy Sacraments.

The only thing that can cause problem isn't your convertion but your life. If for example the brother who will hear your confession finds out that you are not living according to the faith, he may not grand you a blessing to receive Holy Communion. That's a different story though. Please don't worry and I pray that one day you'll go there and return home full of blessings and uplifting experiences.

[Birgitta]

"What do you mean, you cannot be both a Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Christian at the same time?"
Aria told a quite an experience. :eek:

Well, this is some kind of an off-topic, but I'll tell it anyway. I heard an odd anecdote in an Orthodox monastery last summer. A Roman Catholic pilgrim visited the monastery. During the DL, he tried to receive the communion. The abbess stopped that man and said he hadn't a permission to receive the communion. The pilgrim told he was indeed a Catholic but also baptized by an Orthodox priest on Mount Athos during his pilgrim there. So that's why he thought he could be both a Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Christian at the same time. :scratch: