high expectations?

[kamikat]

I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now. I guess I feel like I can never be good enough. Orthodoxy seems to have very high expectations of it's adherents. Is it possible to be truly holy? Is it possible to be good enough for Heaven? At the same time as there are high expectations, it's all so vague. I've heard "it's a sin if you feel it's a sin". I've also heard "you are judged on how you love your nieghbor". How vague is that? If that is true, I am dammned. I don't know if I can do this. I have a meeting with the priest tomorrow. I think this will be very difficult because it means I have to open up to him and discuss personal issues. Yeah, I've talk about some of these issues here or other places on-line, but frankly, that's because I'll probably never meet any of you in real life. I don't know if I can talk to a priest about them. So far, all we've discussed is theology. Talking about these things will require me to trust this man. This is the first church that requires this much trust in a man. My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen. I don't know if I can do this, but I know in order to keep growing in my understanding of the Orthodx church, I need to do this. Please pray for me tonight.

kamikat

[Philip]

I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now. I guess I feel like I can never be good enough.

St Paul himself expressed these doubts. We can not, by ourselves, be good enough. With God energizing us, we can overcome. This is Faith, trusting that God will provide all the we need. His Grace is sufficient.

Orthodoxy seems to have very high expectations of it's adherents.

I agree. The path is narrow, and we often stumble. But have faith, let God provide you with the strength to continue on.

Is it possible to be truly holy? Is it possible to be good enough for Heaven?

If you mean 'good enough to earn heaven', then the answer is 'no'.

At the same time as there are high expectations, it's all so vague. I've heard "it's a sin if you feel it's a sin". I've also heard "you are judged on how you love your nieghbor". How vague is that?

It is a high standard, but not vague. Follow Christ's example. Make your neighbor's suffering your own. Whatever they need, try to provide. Now the hard part: do so not because you must, but because you want to.

If that is true, I am dammned. I don't know if I can do this.

We all have these anxieties. It is part of the process of realizing how desperate we are. No matter how much we want to please God, we know that we will always miss the mark. But this is where Faith comes in. Trust that God will fill whatever is missing. He will be your strength to love your neighbor.


I have a meeting with the priest tomorrow. I think this will be very difficult because it means I have to open up to him and discuss personal issues. Yeah, I've talk about some of these issues here or other places on-line, but frankly, that's because I'll probably never meet any of you in real life. I don't know if I can talk to a priest about them.

At the risk of sounding cliched, 'baby steps'.

So far, all we've discussed is theology. Talking about these things will require me to trust this man. This is the first church that requires this much trust in a man.

Remember that by trusting him, you are trusting Christ. God established the priests as shepherds for His flock. Just as we must rely on Him for strength, they too rely on Him to do their jobs.

My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen.

It was hard for me at first too as I came from a Protestant background. Now, I can envision doing it the 'Catholic' way. It need the direct 'confrontation' to help me be honest with myself.

Please pray for me tonight.


Of course.

[Oblio]

My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen.


May I suggest that you listen to Our Life in Christ, Confession (especially part II IIRC)

[Tsarina]

I will be remembering you in my prayers. :crosseo:

[InnerPhyre]

Kamikat, remember what Paul says in his letter to the Romans:

"There is no one righteous, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. 13 Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips; 14 their mouths are full of bitter cursing. 15 Their feet are quick to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery are in their ways, 17 and the way of peace they know not. 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that what the law says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God, 20 since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.


We are not righteous. We are wretched sinners. This is why we need the Church to be our mother. She nourishes us and keeps us in line, disobedient children that we are. We are saved by grace. Remember that. We can't do it on our own. It's impossible for us to save our own souls. Nothing is impossible for God.

[eoe]

I tried to think of something clever and insightful to say but I couldn't.

I do know how you feel tho. I guess that is why they call it a struggle.

Lord have mercy:crosseo:

Here is a hug:hug:

[kamikat]

We are saved by grace. Remember that. We can't do it on our own. It's impossible for us to save our own souls. Nothing is impossible for God.

So, then why the struggle? If it is impossible for us to save ourselves or ever make ourselves good enough, why isn't the "born again" Evangelical way the right way? Doesn't all this struggle with ourselves then just set us up for failure?

kamikat

[InnerPhyre]

So, then why the struggle? If it is impossible for us to save ourselves or ever make ourselves good enough, why isn't the "born again" Evangelical way the right way? Doesn't all this struggle with ourselves then just set us up for failure?

kamikat

Certainly we will always fail. Fall down...get up...fall down...get up...etc. Remember that Jesus told us to take His yoke on us. A yoke binds two animals together so they can both pull the load. When we are yoked together with Christ, His grace will make up for what is lacking in us. We push forward and He helps us. Without Him helping us, we couldn't do it. And the further we push, the more we begin to rediscover what was lost within us...the likeness of God. As we continue this struggle, we begin to regain it slowly but surely. This is theosis. And remember that theosis continues not just in this life, but eternally. We will always be moving further and further along the path and coming closer and closer to the perfection of God.

So the cart needs to be pushed and it's not gonna move if we don't move it, but God's grace is what pushes us forward and drives us to finish the task.


Also, don't let yourself fall into the trap that forces you to forget how much God loves you. "God loves you" sounds so cliche these days that it has almost lost its meaning. So when I forget, I think about the person that I love the most in this world and then try to remember that God loves me much more than that.

[The Virginian]

I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now. I guess I feel like I can never be good enough. Orthodoxy seems to have very high expectations of it's adherents. Is it possible to be truly holy? Is it possible to be good enough for Heaven? At the same time as there are high expectations, it's all so vague. I've heard "it's a sin if you feel it's a sin". I've also heard "you are judged on how you love your nieghbor". How vague is that? If that is true, I am dammned. I don't know if I can do this. I have a meeting with the priest tomorrow. I think this will be very difficult because it means I have to open up to him and discuss personal issues. Yeah, I've talk about some of these issues here or other places on-line, but frankly, that's because I'll probably never meet any of you in real life. I don't know if I can talk to a priest about them. So far, all we've discussed is theology. Talking about these things will require me to trust this man. This is the first church that requires this much trust in a man. My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen. I don't know if I can do this, but I know in order to keep growing in my understanding of the Orthodx church, I need to do this. Please pray for me tonight.

kamikat

There're several things which we say often enough in life, so as to lose the true import of the words; It's not for nothing that the Orthodox pray so often, "Lord have mercy" ! However; dispair not that the expectations of the Church are high, for our Chief Shepherd's are even higher, for He has commanded us "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." And even with this staggering commandment, we're encouraged by the words of the Apostle Peter to the Church in Asia, "...consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart."
How much more then should we remember the word so fo our Blessed Lord Jesus himself, who knowing the trials which would come to and against us, said to the apostles, "...peace give I to thee. Not as the world gives, give I to thee. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid...", and also "...these things I have spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full..."
From the dawn of time as we know it, i.e., Adam and Eve, not one person has ever been able to walk with God in their own strength. Adam and Eve "...walked with God in the cool of the evening, Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him..."

As part of the Body of Christ, not one Christian exists alone, for we are"...members of one another..." Confession is, and has always been, very important to Christians and the Church, which began with the words "...for if you do not confess Me before men, neither will I confess you before My Father in heaven..." Therefore we see that confession is key, for the beginning, continuation, and end of life for the believer. Jesus, as our Chief Shepherd is the first one to whom we confess. Confession is then made to those who have met the stringent requirements, for being a "presbyter, elder", someone who for all purposes stands in, and represents Christ to us. This is why St. Ignatius wrote "...do nothing without the Bishop..." One very key issue in all of confession, humility. We get embrassed when people get glimpses into our inner being. We want to hide, and keep hidden, the garbage we store away from sight, in the palace of our lives. Confession isn't easy for the flesh, but the more we confess from our hearts, the more we're cleansed, and grow in Christ-likeness.

[kamikat]

Also, don't let yourself fall into the trap that forces you to forget how much God loves you. "God loves you" sounds so cliche these days that it has almost lost its meaning. So when I forget, I think about the person that I love the most in this world and then try to remember that God loves me much more than that.

Thank you. I guess I'm just feeling unlovable these days. Some one told me that I was a child of God's and my first reaction was to think that I wasn't good enough to call myself that. I guess that's why we're all here.

kamikat

[georgia123]

I understand how you feel. I felt the same way about meeting with my Priest when I first joined the church and having to discuss something personal with him. Now, I look forward to it, for he can advise me in whatever I need help in. And trust me I need a lot of help. I too am always falling and having to get back up, many, many times every single day. This is the struggle that we as Christians have. I will never reach perfection, but I will grow and move closer to the mark. Nothing that I ever will or could do would make me, the worst sinner of all, worthy to be in Heaven even for one minute. I love the Orthodox religion, it shows us the true path to walk, but then also gives us help and instruction along the way. Please don't give up. I will remember you in my prayers.

[icxn]

... Doesn't all this struggle with ourselves then just set us up for failure?

kamikat
It's a failure full of spiritual gifts and of deep humility, the mother of all the virtues. ;)
Abba Poemen said of Abba John the Dwarf that he had prayed God to take his passions away from him so that he might become free from care. He went and told an old man this: "I find myself in peace, without an enemy," he said. The old man said to him, "Go, beseech God to stir up warfare so that you may regain the affliction and humility that you used to have, for it is by warfare that the soul makes progress." So he besought God and when warfare came, he no longer prayed that it might be taken away, but said, "Lord, give me strength for the fight." - The Sayings of the Desert Fathers
Also,
Human effort is profitless...without help from above, but no one receives such help unless he himself chooses to make an effort. We need always both things, we need the human and the divine, ascetic practice and spiritual knowledge, fear and hope, inward grief and solace, fearfulness and humility, discrimination and love." - St. Peter of Damascus

[InnerPhyre]

Thank you. I guess I'm just feeling unlovable these days. Some one told me that I was a child of God's and my first reaction was to think that I wasn't good enough to call myself that. I guess that's why we're all here.

kamikat


You're not good enough. Neither am I. Neither is anyone. But God still allows us to be His children and loves us in spite of our flaws. Let the knowledge that you aren't good enough inspire gratitude and humility in your heart, not discouragement :)

[choirfiend]

Remember how much you love your kids, even though they do and will let you down a million times. You will always love them, imperfect, even when they're 13 and make you turn gray.

God loves you like that, only about a billion times more, and He loves everyone like that.

[Akathist]

I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now. I guess I feel like I can never be good enough. Orthodoxy seems to have very high expectations of it's adherents. Is it possible to be truly holy? Is it possible to be good enough for Heaven? At the same time as there are high expectations, it's all so vague. I've heard "it's a sin if you feel it's a sin". I've also heard "you are judged on how you love your nieghbor". How vague is that? If that is true, I am dammned. I don't know if I can do this. I have a meeting with the priest tomorrow. I think this will be very difficult because it means I have to open up to him and discuss personal issues. Yeah, I've talk about some of these issues here or other places on-line, but frankly, that's because I'll probably never meet any of you in real life. I don't know if I can talk to a priest about them. So far, all we've discussed is theology. Talking about these things will require me to trust this man. This is the first church that requires this much trust in a man. My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen. I don't know if I can do this, but I know in order to keep growing in my understanding of the Orthodx church, I need to do this. Please pray for me tonight.

kamikat

You keep giving me such a warm feeling in my heart and the more you write the more I have grown to love you young lady! You think so much like an Orthodox! It is wonderful watching you explore our faith!

Yes, Orthodoxy gives much opportunity for growth. But it never lays on us more than we can handle! It is like a laddar. We climb it one step at a time, we slip and fall and get back up.

All in good time!

As far as trusting your Priest. Having to face ourselves in this way is wonderful yet overwelming. I hated having to tell my Priest who is younger than me my "lifetime confession" because there was so much horrible stuff to relate to someone. And some of it I told him before confession face to face. (In confessions at my parish most of it is not done face to face though, but kneeling with the Priest to my side and me facing down to the floor.)

But when I stopped to realize that God already knows everything I am about to say YET Christ still gave us Priests! AND told us to confess our sins one to another! That I realized that while this was "different" and "uncomfortable" it was something given to my by my Creator because He knows it is good for me.

And it is so very good for me!

I will never be a holy person. But hopefully, I am a bit holier than I was before and hopefully I will be holier than I am now. AND Praise God for the process!

[Theophorus]

I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now. I guess I feel like I can never be good enough. Orthodoxy seems to have very high expectations of it's adherents. Is it possible to be truly holy? Is it possible to be good enough for Heaven? At the same time as there are high expectations, it's all so vague. I've heard "it's a sin if you feel it's a sin". I've also heard "you are judged on how you love your nieghbor". How vague is that? If that is true, I am dammned. I don't know if I can do this. I have a meeting with the priest tomorrow. I think this will be very difficult because it means I have to open up to him and discuss personal issues. Yeah, I've talk about some of these issues here or other places on-line, but frankly, that's because I'll probably never meet any of you in real life. I don't know if I can talk to a priest about them. So far, all we've discussed is theology. Talking about these things will require me to trust this man. This is the first church that requires this much trust in a man. My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen. I don't know if I can do this, but I know in order to keep growing in my understanding of the Orthodx church, I need to do this. Please pray for me tonight.

kamikat

Wow, like Thornygrace said, you sound more orthodox everyday.

About this high ideal Holiness thing. I am in your shoes. How is it possible? But the reality is, it is possible. It is real! I have sees a small glimpse of this "ideal". Would I, will I, see more if I continue in the way? By the grace of God so be it.

Yes, the path is narrow, the struggle is difficult, but there are those that achieve the "ideal", not just Paul and Peter and John, but saints to this very day! If the scriptures were not alive and well without excuses in at least one man, then my faith is in vain. But it is! And more than you know of.

There is the hope, but also, there is the mercy. For those saints pray for you everyday. They love you even though they have never met you, they love you. And they love you because that is What God is.

Never underestimate the mercy of God!

Lent is starting to build up some steam, Saints and Christians are focused on Christ, don't despair, that is what your accuser wants.

[Torah613]

So, then why the struggle? If it is impossible for us to save ourselves or ever make ourselves good enough, why isn't the "born again" Evangelical way the right way? Doesn't all this struggle with ourselves then just set us up for failure?

kamikat

Did you ever watch the movie "Where the Red Fern Grows"? In that movie, it talks about meeting God halphway.

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now. I guess I feel like I can never be good enough. Orthodoxy seems to have very high expectations of it's adherents. Is it possible to be truly holy? Is it possible to be good enough for Heaven? At the same time as there are high expectations, it's all so vague. I've heard "it's a sin if you feel it's a sin". I've also heard "you are judged on how you love your nieghbor". How vague is that? If that is true, I am dammned. I don't know if I can do this. I have a meeting with the priest tomorrow. I think this will be very difficult because it means I have to open up to him and discuss personal issues. Yeah, I've talk about some of these issues here or other places on-line, but frankly, that's because I'll probably never meet any of you in real life. I don't know if I can talk to a priest about them. So far, all we've discussed is theology. Talking about these things will require me to trust this man. This is the first church that requires this much trust in a man. My church of Christ didn't require dealing with issues. The Catholic church allows you to hide behind a screen. I don't know if I can do this, but I know in order to keep growing in my understanding of the Orthodx church, I need to do this. Please pray for me tonight.

kamikat

worthless, miserable, and most likely unheard as my prayers are--you are in them.

I've been through these uncomfortable talks more than once--and been VERY badly burned more than once (Priests and even an "archbishop" blabbing my business to the entire world both real and virtual) yet in the end it is a process that is helpful to the soul.

Joe Zollars

[Prawnik]

So, then why the struggle? If it is impossible for us to save ourselves or ever make ourselves good enough, why isn't the "born again" Evangelical way the right way? Doesn't all this struggle with ourselves then just set us up for failure?

kamikat

The "born again" way is comfortable, but it is not realistic. You make the altar call, get saved, the next few days pass in a rush of emotions. After that passes, you're back to the same old sins.

Nothing really changed.

The Orthodox way is difficult; through your own efforts, you will never be "perfect, even as your Father is perfect." You and every other human will continue to sin. The Church knows this, and the Church provides the tools to become as close to perfect as you can, and through the Grace of God, to complete the process of theosis.

[kamikat]

Wow! Thanks, everyone. Y'all are so kind and helpful. I'm feeling prepared this morning. I think I can, I think I can.

kamikat

[kamikat]

The "born again" way is comfortable, but it is not realistic. You make the altar call, get saved, the next few days pass in a rush of emotions. After that passes, you're back to the same old sins.
Nothing really changed.


Yeah, I know that. If I had been happy with that way, I would have stayed in my old church. I guess some times we all want the easy way out.

kamikat

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Thank you. I guess I'm just feeling unlovable these days. Some one told me that I was a child of God's and my first reaction was to think that I wasn't good enough to call myself that. I guess that's why we're all here.

kamikat

Try to think of the Church as a Support Group for sinners who have the example of the saints who have gone before us to inspire us as to what we can become.

None of us are worthy of God's love -- that's what makes his love so awesome! :clap:

Love in XC,

Maureen

[Mary of Bethany]

Just saw this this morning, kamikat.

Praying for you. :crosseo:

Mary