Talmud

[arab4christ]

Hello to my Jewish brothers and sisters....

I would like to know how the Jews today view The Talmud and if it is still a significance and plays a major role in the Jewish religion today? It has been debated over...Critisized...Labeled 'racist' and 'inhumane' for a long time...What do you guys think and how do you view this special book?

God bless

a4c

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by arab4christ
Hello to my Jewish brothers and sisters....

I would like to know how the Jews today view The Talmud and if it is still a significance and plays a major role in the Jewish religion today? It has been debated over...Critisized...Labeled 'racist' and 'inhumane' for a long time...What do you guys think and how do you view this special book?

God bless

a4c
Marhaba, A4C. I’m not Jewish but you ask about the Jewish Talmud. Here are some direct quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1911. According to this the Talmud is still authoritative in Judaism. As for it being racist. Read the quotes, link to the articles and make up your own mind. At the top of each page is a browse feature click on a letter and research any topic.
Talmud-Its Authority.

The Talmud has not yet entirely lost its twofold importance as a historical factor within Judaism, despite the changes which have taken place during the last century. For the majority of Jews it is still the supreme authority in religion; and, as noted above, although it is rarely an object of study on the part of those who have assimilated modern culture, it is still a subject of investigation for Jewish learning, as a product of Judaism which yet exerts an influence second in importance only to the Bible.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=32&letter=T#149

Gentiles

"The Torah outlawed the issue [i.e. child] of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.).

Unreliability of Gentiles.

With such a character as that depicted above, it would naturally be quite unsafe to trust a Gentile as a witness, either in a criminal case or in a civil suit. He could not be depended upon to keep his promise or word of honor like a Jew (Bek. 13b). The Talmud comments on the untruthfulness of Gentiles ("a band of strange children whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand [in raising it to take an oath] is a right hand of falsehood" [Ps. cxliv. 11]), and contrasts it with the reputation of a Jew:

Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.

Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death"

Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.

Simon ben Yohai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Tob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G#538

[Shimon]

I'm a Messianic Jew, not a Traditional Jew, but I can tell you that we still view the Talmud as a very useful and significant book. There is a great deal of wisdom to be gleaned from it.

Basically, the Talmud is the efforts of the Jewish Sages to apply the Torah to our daily lives. Where the Jews of Yeshua's day erred, was in making the Talmud equal with, and in some cases even superceding, the commandments of G-d.


Shimon

[arab4christ]

Thank you for your responses...

And thank you OldShephard for the links...

I didnt know that it was still even looked at today, I thought it was long gone histroy...Wow thanx...

God bless

a4c

[Noa]

Originally posted by arab4christ
Hello to my Jewish brothers and sisters....

I would like to know how the Jews today view The Talmud and if it is still a significance and plays a major role in the Jewish religion today? It has been debated over...Critisized...Labeled 'racist' and 'inhumane' for a long time...What do you guys think and how do you view this special book?

God bless

a4c

Hello my Arabic brother! :pink:

For me, de Talmud is very very important, but the TeNaCH (OT) and the B´rit Chadasha (NT) are thè Truth; the Word of Yeshua Masiach!

Love and bless,

Noa

 

[Higher Truth]

There are two talmuds...which one are you referring to? [babylonian also]

[arab4christ]

Ameen Noa! :) But Im sure it is always interesting to go back and see the Talmud. It can tell us so much about the times long ago. Thats what I like about it !

Higher Truth - Im talking about the first genuine book if that makes sense. I was not aware there are 2 but Im talking about the first one I guess.

Btw, does anyone know where I can read the complete Talmud online???

God bless

a4c

[Higher Truth]

The MJAA and the IAMCS are the two governing bodies that oversee the majority of the Messianic Jewish congregations in the world. They have a statement of faith that can be viewed here:

http://mjaa.org/StatementOfFaith.html

Their homepage can be viewed here:

http://www.mjaa.org/

They make no mention of Talmud in their doctrinal views. I quess the first question that we need to ask is, does the Talmud confirm or deny the divinity of Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah.

Talmud is typically taught in Orthodox Judaism and in Hebrew school for children.

[Shimon]

They make no mention of Talmud in their doctrinal views. I quess the first question that we need to ask is, does the Talmud confirm or deny the divinity of Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah.


The Talmud certainly doesn't deny the divinity of Yeshua. If anything, it proclaims it:

Rab said: The world was created only on David’s account. Samuel said: On Moses’ account; R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah’s] name? – The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come. The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever and ever: e’er the sun was, his name is Yinnon. The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah. Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem [‘the comforter’], that would relieve my soul, is far. The Rabbis said: His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.

-- b.Sanhedrin 98b. cf. also Mid. Rab. Ruth on 2:14; Yalqut ii.571, ii.620.


What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba Kahana said: His name is “the LORD” (YHVH); as it is stated, And this is the name whereby he shall be called, the LORD (YHVH) is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6).

-- Mid. Rab. Lamentations 1:51; cf. b.Bava Batra 75a.

…It is well according to him who explains that the cause [of the mourning] is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse, And they shall look upon me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son.

-- b.Sukkah 52a.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

"The Talmud certainly doesn't deny the divinity of Yeshua. If anything, it proclaims it:"

If this statement was correct, then wouldn't all 'spiritual' Jews now be Messianic Jews [Jewish Believers}

[Shimon]

If this statement was correct, then wouldn't all 'spiritual' Jews now be Messianic Jews [Jewish Believers}

Not as long as Christianity continues to proclaim that Yeshua "freed" us from the Torah.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

That was not an answer to the question Shimon, but that is okay. Please just think about what I said. I am not trying to attack anyone, but as James wisely said, if we are going to be teachers, we will be held to a stricter judgement. Make sure that your sources are correct and scriptural.That is all that I ask. Don't be fooled by some of the 'false' doctrine that is masquerading as Messianic Judaism.

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

I know that the above wasn't really an answer to your question, but I have addressed it another discussions already. I've provided the quotes from the Talmud, along with the references so that anyone can verify their accuracy themselves.

Shimon

[Talmid HaYarok]

Nobody here described in my opinion my view of the  Talmud.

Though I give it no scriptural signifigance what-so-ever, I view it as probably THE most important historical work in which to view the bible. Being the complied writings of Rabbis before, during, and after the time of our Savior Yeshua.

Unfortunately for rabbinic Jews it is used as an interpretive filter on the Tanakh. The Torah is not read through straight for itself, rather it is generally disected and referred to the Talmud on what "the interpretation" is.

Though I have not read near as much of the Talmud as I would like to, what I have read has been very edifying to me as a follower of the true Messiah.

[Ruhama]

The Talmud is an enormous book and is a compilation of many interpretations of passages.
Some of its contributors believed the Messiah would be God himself. Others did not (like Akiva).
Some of it is wildly racist and supremacist (for example against women). Some of it upholds equality and humility.

The passages that stand out to me about the divinity of Jesus however, besides the ones already mentioned, are the ones that picture him being thrown into hell where boiling filth is poured over him for eternity, where his disciples are the agents of evil (their miracle healings are worse than death), where he is the illegitimate son of an unvirtuous woman, and deceiving sorcerer from Egypt. These are very common opinions in the Talmud. His name in modern Hebrew, Yeshu, is actually a derogatory corruption of Yeshua from the Talmud and an acronym for "may his name be forgotten." (I may have that slightly incorrect, I"m writing this from memory.)

Also I believe the reference to the "Messiah son of Joseph" is not to Jesus specifically, but comes from an older tradition of two messiahs, the conquering King Messiah (M. ben David) and the suffering servant (M. ben Yoseph), due to the dichotomy in the descriptions of the Messiah in the Tanakh.

If I have time later I will try to look up this stuff and get references for these.

[edit] I'm probably overdoing the Talmud-slamming here but it seemed that no one had mentioned these things yet and I thought it good to show a different side of it. As Talmid said, there are edifying things to be gleaned from the Talmud; however the above is probably a good reason why most serious Jews don't become Messianic Jews, over and above the centuries of enmity between the Catholics and Jews. The first Messianic Jews were already outcasts and hated by the pharisaic school (witness Paul for example) - that really didn't change when the pharisaic became known as talmudic.

[SonWorshipper]

Here is something that may be of interest to some. This is a page of Talmud. Notice the layout.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/TalmudL.GIFYou can learn more about it here A page of Talmud (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/TalmudPage.html)

[ILJ]

Arab 4 Christ, Grace and Peace to you.:pray:

I sent you a private message a few weeks ago, if you get a chance to read it let me know if you are ineterested in what I asked you in the message.

In Christ
ILJ