When we die do we go

[blessedmomof5]

Straight to heaven? or do we remain in the grave until the second coming of Christ.. the reason i ask is because in the book of revelation it says.........1 thessalonians 4:16-1916 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 thessalonians 4:16-1917 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. who are the dead in christ? the people already in the grave? i think i have seen it referred to in that manner also? and if so would that mean the people who have died are just resting until the return of christ?
sorry if i am confusing anyone.
when Christ died on the cross, and the man next to him said...luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Is paradise here meant to mean heaven?

i have always pondered this thought....any help.
thanks Denise

[Danfrey]

I will touch on just a couple of things here. I have a CD from David Bercot that does a wonderful job of explaining what the Early Christians (first 2 centuries after the apostles) believed. If you would like a copy of the CD, I would be glad to mail one to you. Just send me an email with your mailing address.

The writers of the Early Church believed that paradise was part of Hades. There was a great Chasm between paradise or Abrahams bosom and that place of Hades that unbelievers went. I am not doing the subject justice as I have not studied it much for myself.

One thing to understand is that the King James translates 3 different Greek words as Hell. A quick look at Strong's gave me the following words. The word paradise is only used three times in the New Testament. The word for heaven is used numerous times.

Hell:
hades - place or state of departed souls
geenna - place or state of everlasting punishment
tartaroo - the deepest abyss of Hades. To incinerate in eternal torment.

Paradise:
paradeisos - a park, an eden (place of future happiness)

Heaven:
ouranos - air, sky (the abode of God)

Simply looking at the words shows that it goes deeper than "you die and go to heaven", which is what most of us grew up with. There are several illustrations in the New Testament that show where they got this understanding. Their understanding works with all of the verses regarding death. We don't have to explain any of them away.

From what I understand, it is a later distortion of this teaching that lead to the doctrine of Purgatory. In opposing the idea of Purgatory the reformers overcorrected (again) and taught that when we die we go to heaven or hell.

[rural_preacher]

It's really very simple. When a believer experiences physical death, they go into the immediate presence of their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Now, ask yourself where Jesus Christ is right now. That is where you will be.

II Corinthians 5:4-8
"For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

We do not need to look to the writings of the early church fathers or any others. We need only look to the written Word of Godto know what He desires for us to know. You can have confidence that you will be in the presence of your Lord when you leave this earth. What more is there than that?


-

[Danfrey]

It's really very simple. When a believer experiences physical death, they go into the immediate presence of their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Now, ask yourself where Jesus Christ is right now. That is where you will be.

II Corinthians 5:4-8
"For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

We do not need to look to the writings of the early church fathers or any others. We need only look to the written Word of Godto know what He desires for us to know. You can have confidence that you will be in the presence of your Lord when you leave this earth. What more is there than that?
-

The quote you have underlined simply states that we would rather be in heaven. As far as where Jesus is, as far as I know he is omnipresent.

Luke 16
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell (Hades in Greek)he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

One of the many passages that speaks of the afterlife. If you read this in light of how the Early Church understood it (written in their language) does it not make sense?

I don't believe our understanding of this is going to affect our eternal state, but it is interesting to see how those closest to the Apostles understood their teachings.

Many get defensive right away when I mention the Early Church writers because they often disagree with what we have been taught for so many years. Shouldn't we remain open minded on all issues. Many will swear by what Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley and others taught, but they reject the writings of those closest to the Apostles who had the scriptures in their own language.

[blessedmomof5]

off to church will read when i get back....

[tel0004]

My viewpoint on this is we wait until the second comming, but if it happens instantly, or takes a billion years, it will seem instant, and heaven is going anywhere, so Im not to worried about it.

[Ramdar_Goftar]

I kinda agree with Tel because time meanse nothing to God he can make the second coming come now or 100 years from now and still make it seem instant to someone. God can do anything....I myself have always thought that when we die we go straight to heaven but then again...there is validity to the verse used in the topic post maybe we do wait to go until the second coming but I think that God will make the time pass extremly quickly:D

[Imblessed]

My viewpoint on this is we wait until the second comming, but if it happens instantly, or takes a billion years, it will seem instant, and heaven is going anywhere, so Im not to worried about it.

that's what my mom thinks. The concept of soul sleep.

My understanding? our spirits go to God when we die, and the part of the scripture quoted that talks of the dead in christ rising first, is where the bodies of the dead are "changed" first, followed by the bodies of the living.....into the same body that Christ has now.

Before Christ's death and ressurection, however, I think people's spirits went to paradise, or abrahams bosom, and during the 3 day's Christ was "dead", that's where he was, preaching to those souls. Then he took those souls with him to God when he ascended.

That's how I understand it all, anyway.

[blessedmomof5]

actually my question was do we go to heaven or to the grave when we die..kinda like a rest period...if you will.... not about when Christ will return.:confused:

[Imblessed]

actually my question was do we go to heaven or to the grave when we die..kinda like a rest period...if you will.... not about when Christ will return.:confused: was that in answer to my post?

I didn't mean to confuse if it was. What I meant to say was that I believe that our spirits do go to be with God when we die. I don't think there is a "rest period" per se any more, unless it's a rest with God before we get our glorified bodies. Does that make better sense? Before the resurrection of christ there was place called paradise, or abrahams bosom...but I don't think it exists any more. I could be totally wrong though.....it's just how I currently understand it.

[Ramdar_Goftar]

actually my question was do we go to heaven or to the grave when we die..kinda like a rest period...if you will.... not about when Christ will return.:confused:

Actually you kind of did because...if we do have a rest period...when does it end? I believe that if there is it will end at the second coming

[Phileoeklogos]

The Body dies, and sleeps in the grave, the spirit goes to be with the Lord, at Christ's return, the spirits of those who died in Christ, the Lord will bring with him. the (changed and now made immortal) body and spirit are reunited in the resurrection.
2Co 5:6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord
2Co 5:7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight);
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
How does one become absent from the body, if the body and spirit are both laying in the grave asleep? Death separates them.
1Th 4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
Notice verse 14, Those that are fallen asleep in Jesus, are being brought with Him, why would they be brought with Him if the body and spirit are both laying in the grave asleep,


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
If those sleeping in Jesus are being brought with Him, and the Lord himself is descending from heaven, it is obvious that those being brought with Him were in the same location prior to the descent.

The only rest the spirit needs is in Christ, we won't need a nap to rest up for eternity.

[MrJim]

Soul sleep is an odd teaching-I understand SDA teach it and there are probably others.

I would tend to agree with Danfrey on this one-and yet consider that it just don't really matter if it's "paradise" or "heaven" it will not be here or hell.

The paradise teaching shouldn't be that strange. Hell is a waiting place until the judgement and the Lake of Fire. That would make paradise the same sort of thing. Paradise-sorta has a nice sound to it.

In any event there will be no soul sleep (but ya know if there was-and there ain't-but if there was you wouldn't really know it as sleeping 'cause it would be like when I lay my head down at 10:30 and next thing I know it's the alarm clock and 5:10 and the night it gone and time to get going. But there ain't no soul sleep-ha, the body is getting "sleep" of a sort-into dust).

[Picture.Of.Obedience]

My viewpoint on this is we wait until the second comming, but if it happens instantly, or takes a billion years, it will seem instant, and heaven is going anywhere, so Im not to worried about it.i think this too. When we die it will seem instant that we are in heaven when in reality it could be 100 years.... there is no time..so we will not know..

[Ramdar_Goftar]

I concur

[DeaconDean]

I have a simple answer, the Lord Jesus Christ was our supreme example. We are to live as He did. We are to model our lives after Him. We are to strive to be more Christlike every day. Since the grave didn't hold Jesus back, why should it hold us back? Did not our Lord rise from the dead on the third day? I personally don't subscribe to "soul-sleep." As it was said earlier, did not Paul write:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor. 5:6-8

Why should Christians fear death? Did not Christ take the sting out of death?

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" -1 Cor. 15:55

If the grave could not hold Jesus, what makes you think it can hold us? The grave didn't hold Moses either!

" And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." -Matt 17:1-3

And God himself buried Moses!

"So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died:" Deut. 34:5-7

I believe that just like Jesus taught, when we die if we are saved then we, just like Lazarus, go to Abraham's Bosom to be comforted. And if we're not saved, then just like the rich man, we'll go to hades, that temporary hell to be there until judgment day. But that's my two cents worth.

[Danfrey]

I have a simple answer, the Lord Jesus Christ was our supreme example. We are to live as He did. We are to model our lives after Him. We are to strive to be more Christlike every day. Since the grave didn't hold Jesus back, why should it hold us back? Did not our Lord rise from the dead on the third day? I personally don't subscribe to "soul-sleep." As it was said earlier, did not Paul write:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor. 5:6-8

Why should Christians fear death? Did not Christ take the sting out of death?

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" -1 Cor. 15:55

If the grave could not hold Jesus, what makes you think it can hold us? The grave didn't hold Moses either!

" And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." -Matt 17:1-3

And God himself buried Moses!

"So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died:" Deut. 34:5-7

I believe that just like Jesus taught, when we die if we are saved then we, just like Lazarus, go to Abraham's Bosom to be comforted. And if we're not saved, then just like the rich man, we'll go to hades, that temporary hell to be there until judgment day. But that's my two cents worth.
Well said.

[DeaconDean]

Thank you friend, I get bashed a lot because I hold this view. I'm glad there is someone who feels the way I do. God Bless you brother.

[Flynmonkie]

I have heard many variations, and studied this quite a bit. At this point I don't think we really "know" anything for sure other than "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". Now, I have agreed to disagree about the "state" we are in during this transition and for what timeframe we are in it. As far as I am concerned, when I leave my physical body behind, I am promised heaven. All the rest is relative I believe.:) :prayer:

[tulc]

In any event there will be no soul sleep (but ya know if there was-and there ain't-but if there was you wouldn't really know it as sleeping 'cause it would be like when I lay my head down at 10:30 and next thing I know it's the alarm clock and 5:10 and the night it gone and time to get going. But there ain't no soul sleep-ha, the body is getting "sleep" of a sort-into dust).

if it's anything like going to sleep then it depends on how much we drink before we die
tulc(sorry, that's an old guy joke) :sorry:

[blessedmomof5]

Thanks for all the replies, it helped clarify things more.. appreciated. although i did like this the most.......................When we die it will seem instant that we are in heaven when in reality it could be 100 years.... there is no time..so we will not know..

[Danfrey]

Thank you friend, I get bashed a lot because I hold this view. I'm glad there is someone who feels the way I do. God Bless you brother.

Your beliefs line up quite well the teachings of the early church. I am amazed at how hostile many can be toward their teachings. Especially since they line up with scripture. This is one area that the teachings are universal up to the time of the Montanists according to Bercot. It is a neat CD to listen to. Up to the time that I listened to it and went back to reread the scriptures I held to the soul sleep view, believing like many that the sleep would be outside of time. Once I listed to the CD and looked up the words for myself in Strongs it made sense.

If you have not heard the CD, I would love to send you one. I enjoy introducing people to David Bercot. He does a great job of explaining what the early church believed and pointing you back to scripture as well. If you want one, send me an email and I will get it out to you.

[JPPT1974]

You only go to you know where
If you don't accept God's love
And repent of your sins
Accept His one & only begotten Son
Into our lives as Savior & Lord

[Phileoeklogos]

More fuel for the fire,

Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

I wonder if Stephen expected Jesus to receive his spirit immediately, or at His return when Stephen would just wake up out of the grave and it would just "seem" like no time had past?

Of course if the body and spirit "sleep" in the grave, why wouldn't Stephen ask the Lord to receive his body and spirit at His return? :confused:

When I read the responses on this thread of those that hold the soul sleep position, I'm not seeing any support from scripture, or any response to scriptural support of the non-soul sleep position.

What do you base your belief on? I read that some of you "like" that belief, is that what you base it on?
And I can't see what would be at all appealing in the position you hold, Could you please explain the beauty of this belief to me.

[Flynmonkie]

What do you base your belief on? I read that some of you "like" that belief, is that what you base it on?
And I can't see what would be at all appealing in the position you hold, Could you please explain the beauty of this belief to me.
[/SIZE]

What are we taught about heaven? What are our promises from God through Christ? or me it encompasses everything we are to believe when it comes to God --Mainly, assurance of His promise of Heaven. (Although I have issues with some ideas of “Hell”, which I believe per rules cannot be discussed here; I am an absolutely firm believer in Heaven at this point)

Repeatedly throughout scripture we are taught our rewards in heaven. Deacon Dean’s answer is the closest to what I believe scripture teaches. But as Danfrey states, there are issues definitions rendered in translation I have in the KJV 1611 which I use regarding Hell, etc. Pay close attention to the earlier verses you posted: 2Co 5:7 in particular-(For we walk by faith, not by sight)

I have to pull my notes again on this it has been awhile, but if I remember correctly, the translation of sleep was an issue as opposed to saying death. (I really need to find those notes) Death is not for Christians in my understanding of scripture. We are promised eternal life.

See notes here: the latter of the two definitions rendered are drawn from Thessalonians.

171. THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS FOR "SLEEP".
There are two words rendered "Sleep" : --

1. katheudo = to compose one's self for sleep. Occurs twenty-two times; never used of death.

2. koimaomai = to fall asleep (unintentionally). Hence this latter is used of death, as it is involuntary while katheudo is voluntary. See this difference illustrated in 1Thess. 4:14 (where it is koimaomai), and 5:6, 7, 10 (where it is katheudo). Occurs eighteen times; always of death, save Matt. 28:13. Luke 22:45. John 11:12. Acts 12:6.

See definintions rendered here for dead quoted in Thessalonians 4: 16 mentioned above
139. "DEAD" AND "THE DEAD".


The word nekros (Noun and Adjective) has different meanings, according as it is used in different connections:--

1. With the Article (hoi nekroi) it denotes dead bodies, or corpses or carcasses in the grave, apart from the personality they once had. This is the O.T. idiom also. See Sept. Gen. 23:3, 4, 6, 8. Deut. 18:11; 28:26. Jer. 7:33; 9:22; 19:7. Ezek. 37:9. See notes on Matt. 22:31. 1Cor. 15:35.

2. Without the Article (nekroi) it denotes the persons who were once alive but who are now alive no longer : i.e. dead persons as distinct from dead bodies. Cp. Deut. 14:1. Judg. 4:22. Lam. 3:6. And see notes on Matt. 22:32. Acts 26:23. 1Cor. 15:12, 13, 15, 16. Heb. 13:20, &c.

3. With a Preposition, but without the Article, which may be latent in the Preposition (ek nekron), it denotes out from among dead people. See notes on Mark 9:9, 10. Luke 16:30, 31. Acts 10:41. Rom. 6:13; 10:7, 9; 11:15. 1Cor. 15:12-20. Heb. 11:19.
4. With a Preposition, and with the Article; e.g. 'ek ton nekron, it denotes emphatically out from among the dead bodies, or corpses. Cp. Eph. 5:14. Col. 1:18; 2:12.

5. The bearing of this on 1Pet. 4:6 will be better seen if we note that we have nekroi (See No. 2 above), meaning people who were then dead, but who had had the Gospel preached. (Ap. 121. 4) to them while they were alive; and this is confirmed by the Gr. Particle, men ( = although) in the next clause, which is ignored both by the A.V. and R.V. The verse reads thus : "For to this end to those who are (now) dead was the Gospel preached, that though they might be judged in the flesh according to [the will of] men (*), yet they might live [again, in resurrection], according to [the will of] God, as regards [the] spirit"; i.e. in spiritual bodies, spoken of in 1Cor. 15:44, 45.

6. To this end -- to give those to whom the apostle wrote this hope -- the Gospel was preached to them, as described in 1Pet. 1:12, 25. The hope of glory was thus set over against their sufferings (1Pet. 1:11; 4:13).

QuotesTaken from: Bullingers Companion Bible http://levendwater.org/companion/index_companion.html

I think some of these teachings stem from the old fire and brimstone approach (forgive me but I will go as far as to say old RC teachings, at least this is where I tracked it to last)

It puts question in a Christians mind and as far as I am concerned – it is another trick of Satan to cause doubt.

[Chris Norwood]

I'm sure that we go straight to heaven when we die. This is why:

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:40-43

So we'll be with Jesus, and call it what you like, that's gotta be heaven.


Hell, I'm not so sure about. Like others here have said, I think that there is a sheol/hades place that is still quite torturous where the unsaved go when they die. At the second coming, everyone in heaven and hades will rise and all that Revelation stuf will come to pass, and then we go to the new heaven while those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life get thrown into the Lake of Fire (which is really nasty).

[Danfrey]

I'm sure that we go straight to heaven when we die. This is why:

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:40-43

So we'll be with Jesus, and call it what you like, that's gotta be heaven.


Hell, I'm not so sure about. Like others here have said, I think that there is a sheol/hades place that is still quite torturous where the unsaved go when they die. At the second coming, everyone in heaven and hades will rise and all that Revelation stuf will come to pass, and then we go to the new heaven while those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life get thrown into the Lake of Fire (which is really nasty).

Why didn't Jesus say today you will be with me in heaven? The Greek word for Paradise and the Greek word for heaven are very different words. Take a look at Strongs.

[Flynmonkie]

Why didn't Jesus say today you will be with me in heaven? The Greek word for Paradise and the Greek word for heaven are very different words. Take a look at Strongs.

This is why I am not very thrilled with Strong’s. It is used figuratively.

(notes from my study bible) See Ecc.2:5

Orchards - Hebrew word: pardesim = paradises, parks or pleasure grounds. Different from “gardens” which were cultivated (Deut 11.10. 1 Kings 21.2). Paradises were formed by eastern monarchs. In the British Museum may be seen the inscriptions of Gudea, the greatest of the Sumerian rulers of Chaldea (2500 B.C.), and Tiglath-Pileser I, king of Assyria (1120 B.C.), describing what could be only a botanical and zoological park. Assur-nazir-pal, king of Assyria (885 B.C.), founded such a public paradise, and describes how he stocked it; what he brought, and whence he brought the natural history collection. The British Museum contains a portion of a similar catalogue of Sennacherib. The Paradise in Rev 2:7; 22 1,2, refers to the future paradise which will be as literal and real not figurative.

Revelation 2:7
7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

See: http://levendwater.org/companion/append173.html

Regarding "To- day" or "this day"
It is the same in Luke 23:43 : "And Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say unto thee to-day [or this day (*1), when, though they were about to die, this man had expressed so great faith in Messiah's coming Kingdom, and therefore in the Lord's resurrection to be its King -- now, under such solemn circumstances] thou shalt be, with Me, in Paradise.' " For when Messiah shall reign His Kingdom will convert the promised land into a Paradise. Read Isa. 35, and see Note on Ecc. 2:5.

http://levendwater.org/companion/append173.html

Things to ponder on :)

[Flynmonkie]

Another thought for Luke 23:43:
"I tell you the truth today you will be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:40-43
It has been suggested that there are no commas in the Greek text, so the translators made the verse agree with their theological beliefs.
with = used here applied definition xi 1.

i. meta governs two cases (the Genitive and the Accusative), and denotes association and companionship with. It thus differs from sun (No. xvi, below), which denotes proximity to and hence conjunction or coherence.

Compare Eph. 6:23 (meta) with Eph. 4:31 (sun); and 1Thess. 3:13 (meta) with Col. 3:3 (sun).

1. Hence meta, with the Genitive, denotes among, amid (e.g. Matt. 26:58. Mark 1:13. Rev. 21:3), or in company with (e.g. Matt. 9:15. John 11:31. 2Thess. 1:7. Rev. 14:13). It refers specially to the mental disposition with which an action is performed (e.g. Matt. 12:30. Mark 3:5. Luke 1:39; 9:49. John 8:28. 2Cor .7:15).

2. With the Accusative it means after, always in connection with time (e.g. Matt. 17:1; 26:32. John 13:7. Heb. 4:7; 7:28).
http://levendwater.org/companion/append104.html

[Phileoeklogos]

Still not seeing any defense/explanation of the soul sleep position :sleep:

[thepianist]

Straight to heaven? or do we remain in the grave until the second coming of Christ.. the reason i ask is because in the book of revelation it says.........1 thessalonians 4:16-1916 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 thessalonians 4:16-1917 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. who are the dead in christ? the people already in the grave? i think i have seen it referred to in that manner also? and if so would that mean the people who have died are just resting until the return of christ?
sorry if i am confusing anyone.
when Christ died on the cross, and the man next to him said...luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Is paradise here meant to mean heaven?

i have always pondered this thought....any help.
thanks Denise

:wave: First of all, Happy Birthday, dear! I trust you had a wonderful day.

As for your question.....let me see if I can help you out with this. You hit the nail on the head with the thief on the cross - when Jesus told the man that today he would be with Him in paradise - He meant it. We read in 2 Timothy 4:6 "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand." Paul was going to depart.....and if you depart - you arrive. I truly believe that our spirit leaves this body when we die - that we don't just 'go to sleep'.....I have actually seen it happen. When my daddy passed away almost eight years ago, he didn't have his eyes open and he hadn't spoken to any of us in the room....but all of a sudden without any change he asked "Where are we going?" It wasn't asked of anyone in his room....but he did know who he was talking to - if he hadn't known who it was, he would've said "Who are you???"

Daddy was a preacher, truly a man of God - I miss him terribly, and I know I always will (at least till I get to heaven). He often spoke of the following verse during sermons....one thing he said will always stick with me. This verse mentions witnesses......a witness has seen something - so it must be referring to those Christians who have died and gone to heaven.....the angels can't be witnesses about things on the earth - they don't know anything about salvation. There is rejoicing in heaven when one sinner repents - gets saved. Angels don't understand being saved - they can't rejoice over a soul accepting Jesus Christ.....but those that have died and gone to heaven sure can - they know what it means.
Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

When Paul speaks about the 'dead in Christ' rising first, I believe they will have a 6 foot head start on we that are alive.....When Jesus comes in the air to call the saved out - I believe that He will bring the spirits of those who have died with Him.

I hope this has helped you with your question. Believe me, if I thought for one minute that Daddy was down there in that box in the cemetery......it never would have been lowered into the grave - I would have stopped that from happening.

[blessedmomof5]

The pianist,

What a wonderful explaintion and testamony to your dad. he would be Proud. the story was truley amazing as i am sure you were there to witness it.

that actually helped me alot except.....When Jesus comes in the air to call the saved out - I believe that He will bring the spirits of those who have died with Him.

are you meaning the saints or have you totally lost me now?

thanks for the birthday wishes:D

[Imblessed]

Why didn't Jesus say today you will be with me in heaven? The Greek word for Paradise and the Greek word for heaven are very different words. Take a look at Strongs.

because Jesus had not yet died and been ressurected. When he died, he spent 3 days preaching to the souls in Paradise, and when He was ressurected, emptied paradisse and they all went to heaven.
He was not lying when he told the thief he'd be with him in paradise, because that's where they both went. They just didn't stay there.

That's how I understand it. I don't think Paradise/abraham's bosom exists today. I think our souls go straight to heaven....but we don't get our glorified bodies until Jesus returns at the end of the world. Because we don't "need" them until the new heaven and new earth are here.

[blessedmomof5]

imblessed,

that makes so much sense also......
you all seem to be making sense.....
*spinning head*

[thepianist]

The pianist,

What a wonderful explaintion and testamony to your dad. he would be Proud. the story was truley amazing as i am sure you were there to witness it.

that actually helped me alot except.....When Jesus comes in the air to call the saved out - I believe that He will bring the spirits of those who have died with Him.

are you meaning the saints or have you totally lost me now?

thanks for the birthday wishes:D

:wave: I'm SOOOO glad that I was able to help you with that question. Yes, I meant the saints - definitely - for they are the spirits who are with Him now in heaven. What a wonderful thought, huh??? Yes, I was there when Daddy passed away.....it was an extremely hard thing to witness, but at the same time there was a peace, a sweetness, that there are no words to describe it totally. I find myself thinking quite often about Daddy......just wondering how it is for him there......what he's doing, besides glorifying God and getting to know Paul the Apostle (something he always said he was looking forward to!).

If I don't get to meet you here on the earth...I believe I'll meet you in heaven, my friend!!! May our wonderful Lord Bless you, my dear. :hug:

[blessedmomof5]

If I don't get to meet you here on the earth...I believe I'll meet you in heaven, my friend!!! May our wonderful Lord Bless you, my dear.

I am sure we will when that day comes, i just wanted to add your dad sounded like a wonderfuly devoted man, and i love that he could not wait to meet paul the apolstle, something he always wanted to do....i would be so proud as to call him dady also.....:hug: :hug: :hug:

[JPPT1974]

When Jesus came on this earth
He praticed what God preached
He also did His Father's will
Not just was He sinless and perfect
But took upon our sins on our behalf
So that we wouldn't have to die on the cross
As He paid it in full

[thepianist]

If I don't get to meet you here on the earth...I believe I'll meet you in heaven, my friend!!! May our wonderful Lord Bless you, my dear.

I am sure we will when that day comes, i just wanted to add your dad sounded like a wonderfuly devoted man, and i love that he could not wait to meet paul the apolstle, something he always wanted to do....i would be so proud as to call him dady also.....:hug: :hug: :hug:

You are so very kind....I DO wish we could meet here - you sound like a wonderful person. Your words about my Daddy really touched my heart - and I wanted you to know that I appreciate it. By the way, you will love him when you get to meet him!!! He was an evangelist who went to any church, anywhere, anytime and preached his hardest for our Lord.....yes, he was devoted.....God's work was always first. :thumbsup: :hug:

[*~DJ~*]

I think we go straight to heaven or hell. When we blink our eyes closed in death and open in Heaven. I believe that the dead that will rise again before the tribulation are faithful the ones that died BEFORE Christ lived. He was not yet born to them.

[Palomino]

I have my own thoughts on after we're no longer here.I believe we see Jesus within seconds and our fate is then sealed.Heaven or Hell.

[ZiSunka]

actually my question was do we go to heaven or to the grave when we die..kinda like a rest period...if you will.... not about when Christ will return.:confused:

Idaho. When we die, we go to Idaho.

Oh wait, maybe that's only my version of heaven.

JWs believe that people go to the grave and sleep until the coming of the Lord, but James can undoubtedly tell you more about that than I can. Christians of orthodox doctrines believe that when we die, we go to heaven, except of course those who believe they go to purgatory to purge themselves until they are admitted to heaven.

I believe the Bible fully supports the idea that we go immediately to heaven, with no rest stops or layovers.

[holdon]

Here is a good article about "after death" from a biblical perspective.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/31011E.html

[JPPT1974]

Thanks Holdon for that link
As I do need to go on there
Very sweet of you to put the link on there!

[blessedmomof5]

Lambslove,
Idaho sounds nice;) ......but heaven sounds so much better....

Holdon, i am going to read that link, thank you and God bless

[FreeinChrist]

actually my question was do we go to heaven or to the grave when we die..kinda like a rest period...if you will.... not about when Christ will return.:confused:

I believe our spirits go to heaven at death, at at the rapture, our bodies will be resurrected glorified, our spiris joined to them....and those that are alive (and true believers) at that time will be instantly changed - glorified.
At the Second coming, those who died during the trib will be resurrected

[FreeinChrist]

Here is a good article about "after death" from a biblical perspective.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/31011E.html
:thumbsup:

[Dondi]

One problem of soul sleep I see is, how do you explain the fact that in Luke 16, Abraham, is conscious and talking to the rich man across that great gulf? How do explain Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus during the Transfiguration and conversing with Him? Aren't they supposed to be taking a nap?