Discomfort at Catholic Service

[Monica02]

Hello All

I was reading in another thread how some people are uncomfortable at Catholic services. I am curious as to why. Is it because you are unfamiliar with the liturgy and rituals? Do the people seem unfriendly? I used to be Evangelical and I know that people generally are not as outgoing and welcoming at Catholic Churches. Is the content of the Mass unsettling? Is it a combination of these things?


Thanks

[Joykins]

Well, for me it was just more social awkwardness--I didn't know the responses and when to stand and any of that stuff. Also saying the creed, because previously I'd only learned about the creed in class (late Roman history) and hadn't memorized it too well--but fortunately I had studied it so I knew I agreed with it and could feel OK about saying it if not getting it word perfect. Once I'd been a few times I pretty much got over the awkwardness, since I became more familiar with the service.

[catch21wide]

I wasn't used to that sort of thing. I have only been to one mass, but I just didn't feel comfortable there. I am so used to Baptist traditions that its hard to handle something different. I know where you are coming from.

[WarriorAngel]

The Catholic Church is much like Orthodox, but when I went to the Orthodox Church I felt out of place.

But I think it has to do with familiarity. I might be wrong.

I also felt that way in the Byzantine Mass too, but again when things become familiar, the oddness leaves.

God Bless and Peace!
May your next experience, if you choose, be wonderful.

[tulc]

I didn't know the responses and when to stand and any of that stuff.

LOL! Ok this isn't on point but when I read that it made me remember something:
In Milwaukee they have one of the best Irish fests in the Midwest and on Sunday if you bring a can of food and get there early enough to attend mass you get in for half price. You don't have to go to mass but nothing else is going on so we decided to go. Anyway they held the service in a sports arena type setting with stadium seating so we (about 15 friends and I) file in and find seats , the place is packed because they've brought in a priest from Ireland to conduct the ceremony so service starts and everything is going smoothly until they get to the part where everyone is supposed to get to their feet. Like I said it's stadium seating so when everyone gets to their feet all at the same time the seats slam back up into position all at the same time with a BANG! except of course for the protestents who didn't know they were getting up, so there's a huge bang and a series of little pops as we prods try and catch up. It was so loud the Priest stopped talking, and because (coming from Northern Ireland) when he hears what sounds like an explosian quickly followed by what sounds like small arms fire he, obviously, gets a little nervous! :eek: Anyway everything gets back on track and mass resumes. Except everyone was a little more careful about jumping out of their seats! :D
tulc(not a high Church kind of guy) :sorry:

[Monica02]

LOL! Ok this isn't on point but when I read that it made me remember something:
In Milwaukee they have one of the best Irish fests in the Midwest and on Sunday if you bring a can of food and get there early enough to attend mass you get in for half price. You don't have to go to mass but nothing else is going on so we decided to go. Anyway they held the service in a sports arena type setting with stadium seating so we (about 15 friends and I file in and find seats , the place is packed because they've brought in a priest from Ireland to conduct the ceremony so service starts and everything is going smoothly until they get to the part where everyone is supposed to get to their feet. Like I said it's stadium seating so when everyone gets to their feet all at the same time the seats slam back up into position all at the same time with a BANG! except of course for the protestents who didn't know they were getting up, so there's a huge bang and a series of little pops as we prods try and catch up. It was so loud the Priest stopped talking, and because (coming from Northern Ireland) when he hears what sounds like an explosian quickly followed by what sounds like small arms fire he, obviously, gets a little nervous! :eek: Anyway everything gets back on track and mass resumes. Except everyone was a little more careful about jumping out of their seats! :D
tulc(not a high Church kind of guy) :sorry:



Great story - it would be hard to top that one!


If anyone is interested in going to a mass and you do not know when to stand/sit/kneel there is usually a missalette in the pew that has directions so to speak.

[ThirdDay3337]

I think it is uncomfortable, but not because of the timing or not knowing when to stand up. It is the fact that we don't know the reasoning or point behind these rituals. After doing something for long enough, you kinda get 'tolerant' of it, so no one knows why they do it anymore. So if everyone is talking monotone, I feel weird standing there in a catholic mass, listening.

[Monica02]

I think it is uncomfortable, but not because of the timing or not knowing when to stand up. It is the fact that we don't know the reasoning or point behind these rituals. After doing something for long enough, you kinda get 'tolerant' of it, so no one knows why they do it anymore. So if everyone is talking monotone, I feel weird standing there in a catholic mass, listening.

Does the monotone make you feel like the rituals are done without any real meaning or feeling?

[ThirdDay3337]

It does seem as though it is done without feeling because I see such a change in my friends. If I go to a catholic service with them, I see them there say something, but when they go to school they do something totally different.

It might be because I have a small mindset on Catholic rituals. But nevertheless, I feel like there is no feeling in saying the same prayer everyweek. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

Brother in Christ,
Luke

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I have no problem with the Roman Catholic liturgy, except it's a little too low-ceremonial for my taste. :P
You guys are going to have a long road to recovery since Vatican II!

[Lexi]

It was very monotone when I went and nope, I didn't know when to stand, sit, or kneel. When I was trying to figure it out, there were people who watched me and snickered instead of offering to help me know when to do what which is what would have happened in any other church that I'd gone to.

The second time, the priest angered me with calling a basketball player a barbarian for being black. I was extremely offended and uncomfortable anyway because I'd had a bad experience before in a Catholic church. I can't see myself returning back to a church unless a Catholic friend of mine passes away.

[WarriorAngel]

I have my heart in every prayer at Mass. :)
The psalms, the readings, the Gospel, the whole thing is like unvieling a mystery.

The Bible is so huge, it's gr8 IMO to have many pieces in every part of Mass.

IF anyone desires to ask about why...then go to One Bread, One Body. :wave:

I am only here to fellowship.

Peace!

[WarriorAngel]

Sorry to hear about that Lexi. That's unusual for a priest to do that.
:scratch: In fact I have never experienced a racist priest.

And maybe its my location, but I never experienced snickering either, except from teens who I chalk up to being hormonal and such.

Peace to you.

[Monica02]

It was very monotone when I went and nope, I didn't know when to stand, sit, or kneel. When I was trying to figure it out, there were people who watched me and snickered instead of offering to help me know when to do what which is what would have happened in any other church that I'd gone to.

The second time, the priest angered me with calling a basketball player a barbarian for being black. I was extremely offended and uncomfortable anyway because I'd had a bad experience before in a Catholic church. I can't see myself returning back to a church unless a Catholic friend of mine passes away.


How rude to snicker at you - I am sorry that happened.
Where on Earth was this parish?

The priest said that. YIKES.

[tulc]

If anyone is interested in going to a mass and you do not know when to stand/sit/kneel there is usually a missalette in the pew that has directions so to speak.

Hey that's nice to know! Thanks! ;)
tulc( ;) )

[Mysterium_Fidei]

It was very monotone when I went and nope, I didn't know when to stand, sit, or kneel. When I was trying to figure it out, there were people who watched me and snickered instead of offering to help me know when to do what which is what would have happened in any other church that I'd gone to.

The second time, the priest angered me with calling a basketball player a barbarian for being black. I was extremely offended and uncomfortable anyway because I'd had a bad experience before in a Catholic church. I can't see myself returning back to a church unless a Catholic friend of mine passes away.

Most Roman Catholic priests I know are holy, pious, devout men -- I'm so sorry you had that experiance!

[arunma]

Hello All

I was reading in another thread how some people are uncomfortable at Catholic services. I am curious as to why. Is it because you are unfamiliar with the liturgy and rituals? Do the people seem unfriendly? I used to be Evangelical and I know that people generally are not as outgoing and welcoming at Catholic Churches. Is the content of the Mass unsettling? Is it a combination of these things?


Thanks

When I went to a Catholic mass for the first (and only, so far) time, I had already been to several Episcopal services. So I was quite familiar with the liturgy. One of my main problems was purely logistic. They didn't provide references to the hymn book when they sang the hymns, and so I couldn't sing with the congregation. That is the only discomfort that I felt.

As I said in the other thread, I actually liked most of the Catholic liturgy. If only Catholics believed in what they preached at church (I'm not referring to you, Monica), I probably wouldn't have many serious issues with the Catholic Church.

[constance]

Hello All

I was reading in another thread how some people are uncomfortable at Catholic services. I am curious as to why. Is it because you are unfamiliar with the liturgy and rituals? Do the people seem unfriendly? I used to be Evangelical and I know that people generally are not as outgoing and welcoming at Catholic Churches. Is the content of the Mass unsettling? Is it a combination of these things?

Thanks
Hi -

My husband was Catholic when we married. We attended a RCC church for a year. He's now a protestant minister and very very sympathetic to the Catholic faith.

We both are historians, my particular area of interest is 1500s Flanders and England (read my sig). I was raised Baptist, although I consider myself to be an Anabaptist in theology. I started my history jaunt as a music historian, and so I know the mass really well (in Latin!)

My "triggers" are mundane things, from the music being not to my taste (I prefer old hymns that rhyme), to major theological issues (I consider myself an iconoclast, I refuse to participate in responsive readings including the creeds, and, well, my beliefs about baptism and communion are really different than the RCC.

I do occasionally go with a friend of mine, if something cool is happening for her child...they make jokes about making sure I have no sharp objects.

Is that what you are looking for?

Constance

[arunma]

My "triggers" are mundane things, from the music being not to my taste (I prefer old hymns that rhyme), to major theological issues (I consider myself an iconoclast, I refuse to participate in responsive readings including the creeds, and, well, my beliefs about baptism and communion are really different than the RCC.

Hey, another iconoclast!

But personally, I have no problem with responsive readings (my church does it), and I absolutely love the Nicene Creed.

[constance]

Hey, another iconoclast!

But personally, I have no problem with responsive readings (my church does it), and I absolutely love the Nicene Creed.
Yep. No creeds for me.

Here's a little tidbit by Alexander Campbell (a 19c Christian who explains it better than me)
Paul commanded the Roman Christians to receive one another without regard to differences of opinion. No man was excluded by Paul for a difference of opinion.
Q. Ought a man to read any human creed for the sake of assenting to it?
A. No, unless he read them all; for how can he decide without a comparison?
Q. But ought he not to compare every one he reads with the Bible?
A. Yes; but this supposes him to understand the Bible as well as the creed: and surely, if he can decide what is truth from the Bible, he need not trouble himself with the creed. Why impose upon himself the task of reading the creed, since he cannot receive it unless he understand the Bible before he read it?
Q. Of what use, then, is a creed?
A. Of much use to build and keep up a party; to cause professors to revile, slander, and hate one another; to hold formalists, hypocrites, and prevaricators together; and to exclude weak Christians and honest disciples from popular establishments. They, like strainers, retain all the feculent matter, and suffer the pure liquor to escape.

[MikeMcK]

I don't believe that I could, in good conscience go to a Catholic service because there are just too many Catholic teachings I could not agree with.

Besides, knowing Catholics views on non-Catholics, I doubt I would be comfortable there, anyway.

It would be best just to stay with likeminded Christians.

[Imblessed]

I've only been to mass once, when I visiting a friend of mine. I found the experience very odd. Mainly because i was raised Quaker and had not experienced any kind of ceremony before at all in church.

[ctay]

I went once and didn't have a problem, I guess its because I go to a Lutheran church and am used to a liturgy type of service its still a little different than Mass, my daughter in law grew up Baptist and she felt uncomfortable in a Lutheran church service.

[tulc]

It would be best just to stay with likeminded Christians.

I think you're missing a blessing, but it's up to you! ;)
tulc(discovered like minded doesn't have to mean thinks the same!) :)

[aReformedPatriot]

I goto Mass quite often. Mainly to learn Catholic teaching from the horse's mouth on a saturday night. While I enjoy the service in a sensory fashion and can appreciate many things about the service, it is ultimately deeply rooted in false teaching and quite often I feel the urge to stand up and say "stop this!" or during the homily, "thats not what this text is talking about at all!"

I agree with something John Calvin once said, "This pretense of sucession is vain unless their descendants conserve safe and uncorrupted the truth of Christ which they have recieved at their fathers' hands, and abide in it... See what value this sucession has, unless it also include a true and uninterrupted emulation on the part of the sucessors!" (Institutes 4.2.2-3 pgs. 1043-45).

What Calvin wishes to say is that the Catholic 'church' has abandoned the correct counsel of the word of God and is no longer to be designated a true church (as Rome claims to be the true church) at all for it has so maligned the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. This is what makes me uncomfortable. Unless several bishops wish to gather together for mass reform (pun intended) then we can have no true "likeminded" fellowship. (What other "likemindedness" is their save being so open minded that your brain falls out? To be united is to be united in the truth of the word).

Greetings Everybody! Hope all is well with you.

[Athanasian Creed]

... Is the content of the Mass unsettling?...

The Mass is a resacrifice of Christ - it is "a sacrifice which the sacrifice of the Cross is perpetuated..." (Vatican II)

"Remembering that the work of redemption IS CONTINUALLY ACCOMPLISHED in the mystery of the Eucharistic sacrifice, priests are to celebrate frequently; indeed daily celebration is strongly recommended..."
- The Code of Canon Law, Canon 904

The Bible, however, assures us in numerous verses that the work of redemption was "once for all" accomplished on the Cross and that Christ's sacrifice is never to be repeated (nor need be) (Hebrews 7:16,27; 9:25-10:2; 10:12-18; Rev. 1:18) Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED!!"

"...we find in obedience to the words of his priests - Hoc est Corpus Meum - God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes whenever they call Him; and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their hands, even though they should be His enemies. And after having come, He remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh, and give Him for the food of others. Oh how great is their power!'

For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself. When the priest pronounces the tremendous works of Consecration, he reaches up into heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man.

"It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. For, while the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man - not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ the Eternal and Omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command."
Above quotes from "The Dignity of the Priesthood" by Liguori

The Mass is very much unsettling - indeed more than unsettling - blasphemous! I agree with the Reformers and other Christians who called the "Sacrifice of the Mass" such and willingly died horrific deaths in the flames rather than identify with such heresy!:sigh:

Sorry - ain't gonna mince words when it comes to the truth of God's Word - i care too much for your soul and the souls of all RC.:cry:


Ray :sorry:

[tamtam92]

The Mass is very much unsettling - indeed more than unsettling - blasphemous! I agree with the Reformers and other Christians who called the "Sacrifice of the Mass" such and willingly died horrific deaths in the flames rather than identify with such heresy!:sigh:

Sorry - ain't gonna mince words when it comes to the truth of God's Word - i care too much for your soul and the souls of all RC.:cry:


Ray :sorry:

At least there are some posts i can agree with! I was wondering what this thread was developing into. Thank you MikeMcK and Ray
for holding up the truth!

Anyway, i've never been to a mass. Visiting Catholic churches and cathedrals was discomfortable enough (though often i found beautiful stained-glasses and architecture, but there are things i can't stand).

Plus with a french baptist background, i feel like having Huguenot blood in my veins. I can be (and i am) good friend with some catholics, but not with Catholicism.

[Joykins]

Who is this Liguori and is this the official teaching of the Catholic Church what is quoted here and that a priest is greater than God?

[Athanasian Creed]

Alphonsus de Liguori was a Cardinal and now a patron Saint of the RCC. See here -

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainta09.htm

He has been referred to as "the incomparable Doctor of the (RC) Church"

Ray :wave:

[Athanasian Creed]

A...I can be (and i am) good friend with some catholics, but not with Catholicism.

:thumbsup::amen:



Ray :wave:

[Crazy Liz]

Oh my! A saint said something weird! :eek:

I hope 300+ years after my death people don't comb through all my internet postings to find something outrageous I said and use it to discredit my church. :doh:

[Monica02]

Who is this Liguori and is this the official teaching of the Catholic Church what is quoted here and that a priest is greater than God?

Please go over to OBOB for an answer to your question.

[Iollain]

I have been to a few RCC yard sales in the basement of the church, they give really good deals :thumbsup:

[JPPT1974]

They seem to have like good deals
Love your avator btw!:thumbsup:

[Iollain]

thank you :)

[catch21wide]

I think that I felt out of place because I don't believe in confessing sins to a priest. I believe you should pray straight to God with your sins. Along with that I don't believe in praying to the Virgin Mary. I don't believe in those things, but I do respects Catholics because they preach the word of God. I have enormous respect for the Pope because of his stand on gay marriage and abortion. What I am trying to say is that I don't agree with some of the practices done by Catholics, but I do respect them.

[ThirdDay3337]

I think that I felt out of place because I don't believe in confessing sins to a priest. I believe you should pray straight to God with your sins. Along with that I don't believe in praying to the Virgin Mary. I don't believe in those things, but I do respects Catholics because they preach the word of God. I have enormous respect for the Pope because of his stand on gay marriage and abortion. What I am trying to say is that I don't agree with some of the practices done by Catholics, but I do respect them.

I could never have summed it up better. :thumbsup:

[MikeMcK]

I think you're missing a blessing, but it's up to you! ;)
tulc(discovered like minded doesn't have to mean thinks the same!) :)

Where is the blessing when I watch them take communion that they don't consider me worthy to take?

Where is the blessing when I watch them pray to Mary?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach that I must be aligned with Rome?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach any one of a dozen things that contradict God's word?

No disrespect to the Catholics here, but you may call it "blessing", God calls it compromise.

[Diane_Windsor]

Monica,

Well, when I first went to a RC service with a friend years ago I found that the parishoners were unfriendly. Then came communion, which a friend of mine said I could take. To make a long story short after I took the bread the guy holding the wine gave me the dirtiest look imaginable. I was completely turned away from the RCC at that very moment. The tip that I can give you is this: If you are an EM, or know one, NEVER under any circumstance, give a communicant a dirty look. It took me years to start getting interested in the RCC again, and get over the dirty look.

If anyone is interested in going to a mass and you do not know when to stand/sit/kneel there is usually a missalette in the pew that has directions so to speak.

Actually, this guide (http://grigaitis.net/?doc=articles/guide.html) is much better than a confusing missalette.

DIANE
:wave:

[aReformedPatriot]

Where is the blessing when I watch them take communion that they don't consider me worthy to take?

Where is the blessing when I watch them pray to Mary?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach that I must be aligned with Rome?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach any one of a dozen things that contradict God's word?

No disrespect to the Catholics here, but you may call it "blessing", God calls it compromise.

:amen:

[tulc]

Where is the blessing when I watch them take communion that they don't consider me worthy to take?

Where is the blessing when I watch them pray to Mary?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach that I must be aligned with Rome?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach any one of a dozen things that contradict God's word?

No disrespect to the Catholics here, but you may call it "blessing", God calls it compromise.

Sorry you feel that way, I've almost always been very welcomed when I've gone. Are you sure you're not mistaking the "official" position" for the local Church? There is a difference. How long ago has it been since you went to any other Church besides your normal one? This isn't a critisism of you MikeMcK, I just am a little suprised. :)
tulc(waiting for snow in my hometown, that would be nice!)

[MikeMcK]

Sorry you feel that way, I've almost always been very welcomed when I've gone.

It has nothing to do with being welcome or unwelcome.

Are you sure you're not mistaking the "official" position" for the local Church?

No, these are all "official" positionc.

How long ago has it been since you went to any other Church besides your normal one?

Between singing in other churches, working with them on cooperative missions projects and charitable outreaches, and visiting friends' churches, I go to other churches quite a bit.

This isn't a critisism of you MikeMcK, I just am a little suprised. :)

If you're surprised that I'd stand up for sound doctrine, I suppose that doesn't speak very well of me.

[PaladinGirl]

Well, I am in RCIA (Catholic conversion classes - I won't be converting though.) and when I first attended Mass, it was quite a shock to me as well. But I must say that I was more pleasantly surprised by it than anything. It was beautiful and neat to see such a cool liturgy. Nowadays I have to wonder if such elaborate ritual is necessary. I mean no offense to Catholics and all but it almost seems like a throwback to the Old Testament days of ritual.

[tulc]

Between singing in other churches, working with them on cooperative missions projects and charitable outreaches, and visiting friends' churches, I go to other churches quite a bit.
Wow, that sounds interesting! I'd be interested in knowing more about those! :)

If you're surprised that I'd stand up for sound doctrine, I suppose that doesn't speak very well of me.

LOL! Nope not suprised at all! ;)
But then I'm not really talking about defending anything, I'm talking about attending other believers Churchs. :)
tulc(what kind of singing? it isn't shape note is it? just started learning about that!)

[MikeMcK]

tulc(what kind of singing? it isn't shape note is it? just started learning about that!)

I have a ministry where I take my guitar and sing and preach a little.

If you're interested in shape note singing, there are several people over on baptistboard.com who are into that.

[MikeMcK]

Well, I am in RCIA (Catholic conversion classes - I won't be converting though.) and when I first attended Mass, it was quite a shock to me as well. But I must say that I was more pleasantly surprised by it than anything. It was beautiful and neat to see such a cool liturgy. Nowadays I have to wonder if such elaborate ritual is necessary. I mean no offense to Catholics and all but it almost seems like a throwback to the Old Testament days of ritual.

In a way it is. Catholics depend very much on having to have someone to go to God on your behalf and reject the Biblical teaching of the priesthood of the believer (among many other Biblical teachings).

Having to go through a priestly intermediary and appease God through works and ritual is an OT idea.

The temple veil has been rent in two and that system is gone. To say that we are bound by these things when Jesus has fulfilled them makes Christ's death meaningless

For people who love so much to tell the rest of us how they're the only true church, they sure don't seem to understand NT teachings on the "true church".

[arunma]

Well, I am in RCIA (Catholic conversion classes - I won't be converting though.) and when I first attended Mass, it was quite a shock to me as well. But I must say that I was more pleasantly surprised by it than anything. It was beautiful and neat to see such a cool liturgy. Nowadays I have to wonder if such elaborate ritual is necessary. I mean no offense to Catholics and all but it almost seems like a throwback to the Old Testament days of ritual.

Actually, I too enjoy the Catholic liturgy. It would be preferable, though, if they could give up the unbiblical theology, and keep the rituals.

[JPPT1974]

You all have interesting answers
For someone like myself
That has never, ever been in a catholic service
But though I went as a child
I don't remember much of it!

[chrismon]

- Mariology. I just can't abide. A symbol of the Church, weak and need yet bold and faithful and because of God indestructable. But not even the Eastern Churches holds to Rome's very, very late theology. The East may have a "theotokois", but no "coredemptrix" - that is simply beyond healthy. I find it difficult to worship under that banner.

- necessary liturgy. My Church follows a common liturgy - some things we always do, and always do the same way. But even then, what makes it common is desire, not necessity. I find it the rare Roman congegation which operates more out of desire than necessity. If desire was common, it would...well... necessitate a lack of necessity ;)

[Monica02]

Diane_Windsor]
Monica,

Well, when I first went to a RC service with a friend years ago I found that the parishoners were unfriendly. Then came communion, which a friend of mine said I could take. To make a long story short after I took the bread the guy holding the wine gave me the dirtiest look imaginable. I was completely turned away from the RCC at that very moment. The tip that I can give you is this: If you are an EM, or know one, NEVER under any circumstance, give a communicant a dirty look. It took me years to start getting interested in the RCC again, and get over the dirty look.


The EM should not have given you a dirty look but just out of curiosity, how did you receive the Eucharist?
I do know that Catholic parishioners seem less friendly than some non-Catholics. I think non-Catholics socialize more at their services than Catholics generally do. Even with people I know very well, we would never exchange more than a simple hello type nod before mass. I do talk to friends as we exit mass. but hardly never before mass.



Actually, this guide (http://grigaitis.net/?doc=articles/guide.html) is much better than a confusing missalette.

DIANE

Yeah, but it normally will not be in the pew.
:wave:[/quote]

[thatgirliknew]

Hello All

I was reading in another thread how some people are uncomfortable at Catholic services. I am curious as to why. Is it because you are unfamiliar with the liturgy and rituals? Do the people seem unfriendly? I used to be Evangelical and I know that people generally are not as outgoing and welcoming at Catholic Churches. Is the content of the Mass unsettling? Is it a combination of these things?


Thanks
I sometimes go to Mass with my grandmother at the Cathedral and I just was uncomfortable because I didn't know what I should be doing and when I should be doing it.

[JPPT1974]

Never have been though by reading all of your answers
Sounds pretty confusing as well!:confused:

[tamtam92]

Where is the blessing when I watch them take communion that they don't consider me worthy to take?

Where is the blessing when I watch them pray to Mary?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach that I must be aligned with Rome?

Where is the blessing when I hear them preach any one of a dozen things that contradict God's word?

No disrespect to the Catholics here, but you may call it "blessing", God calls it compromise.

:amen:
According to catholics books, i'm an anathema. And i think the french catholic churches are nearer to Rome than the american ones.

[Vedant]

Actually, I too enjoy the Catholic liturgy. It would be preferable, though, if they could give up the unbiblical theology, and keep the rituals.

Which theology do you find unbiblical?

[arunma]

Which theology do you find unbiblical?

Above all else, I think the most unbiblical theology the Catholic Church teaches is that unbelievers have any possibility of salvation.

[Vedant]

Above all else, I think the most unbiblical theology the Catholic Church teaches is that unbelievers have any possibility of salvation.

Any others?

[mesue]

Hello All

I was reading in another thread how some people are uncomfortable at Catholic services. I am curious as to why. Is it because you are unfamiliar with the liturgy and rituals? Do the people seem unfriendly? I used to be Evangelical and I know that people generally are not as outgoing and welcoming at Catholic Churches. Is the content of the Mass unsettling? Is it a combination of these things?


Thanks
Having grown up in the RCC I can say that I'm very uncomfortable now, less so now than when I first left the church. But uncomfortable none the less, like being in a pit. How dare a church tell me that Christ didn't die for all of my sins? How dare a church tell me that I could never have a right relationship with God again? How dare a church place a man in power and call him god on earth. How dare a church hide the word of God from people and tell them they couldn't possibly know the truth. How dare a church murder people for standing up for the truth?
I'm sorry but this church will have a lot to answer for at the Great White Throne judgment. I'm thankful for my salvation through Christ's shed blood. That Jesus shed His blood for all of my sin. My sin debt is paid in full. I praise God that I can have a right relationship with Him in spite of an ugly past. I praise God that I am indwelled with His Holy Spirit and that I can know the truth, I can understand His word. I praise God for the saints that died in the name of Jesus refusing to bow down to a false doctrine. Their blood screams for justice and justice will be served. I praise God for my pastor whom doesn't place himself above anyone. Who's grounded Biblically and just wants to do what is right in the Lord's sight.

[arunma]

Any others?

Plenty others, and I could list them for you if you'd like. But to be honest, if the Catholic Church made a clear and unequivocal statement that all non-Christians without exception are condemned to hell apart from direct, conscious faith in Christ (so as to preclude faith in Christ through other gods, or through the Jewish and Muslim understandings of the Messiah), then I wouldn't have many issues with the Catholic Church.

[Vedant]

Plenty others, and I could list them for you if you'd like. But to be honest, if the Catholic Church made a clear and unequivocal statement that all non-Christians without exception are condemned to hell apart from direct, conscious faith in Christ (so as to preclude faith in Christ through other gods, or through the Jewish and Muslim understandings of the Messiah), then I wouldn't have many issues with the Catholic Church.

Yes, arunma, I would like you to list them all, or at least the major ones.


I'm in the middle lengthy thread asking people in OBOB about catholicism. Anyway, they are not very receptive to debate, so I wouldn't advice going there seeing as we like debating on CF at times. However, there are some very knowledgeable people there.

[arunma]

Yes, arunma, I would like you to list them all, or at least the major ones.

Here are the usual problems:

The primacy of the Bishop of Rome
Transubstantiation
The divine inspiration of Roman Catholic "sacred tradition"
The authority of the magesterium
Salvation by the sacraments
Apostolic authority of the Roman Catholic Church
Prayers offered to Mary and the Apostles of ChristI'm in the middle lengthy thread asking people in OBOB about catholicism. Anyway, they are not very receptive to debate, so I wouldn't advice going there seeing as we like debating on CF at times. However, there are some very knowledgeable people there.

I've been there before. They're nice individuals of course. But I still don't believe in their doctrines.

[tulc]

According to catholics books, i'm an anathema.

Wow. Hopefully in the original sense! :eek:
(Gr. anathema -- literally, placed on high, suspended, set aside).
A term formerly indicating offerings made to the divinity which were suspended from the roof or walls of temples for the purpose of being exposed to view. Thus anathema according to its etymology signifies a thing offered to God.
;)
tulc(needing some coffee!) :(

[arunma]

Wow. Hopefully in the original sense! :eek:

;)
tulc(needing some coffee!) :(

Very interesting. I didn't know this. Based on what you've said, I would surmise that the Apostles used this phrase for the same reason that the Israelites used to talk about blasphemers as being "devoted to destruction by the Lord."

[constance]

Here are the usual problems:

The primacy of the Bishop of Rome
Transubstantiation
The divine inspiration of Roman Catholic "sacred tradition"
The authority of the magesterium
Salvation by the sacraments
Apostolic authority of the Roman Catholic Church
Prayers offered to Mary and the Apostles of Christ
I've been there before. They're nice individuals of course. But I still don't believe in their doctrines.

I'd add
- Prayers to saints and angels
- icons and the veneration thereof
- Infant Baptism
- Baptismal Regeneration
- Purgatory, Indulgences
- Celibacy of priests
- Permanent vows
- Episcopacy
- Papal Infallibility
- Apostolic Succession
- Ontological care of the priesthood
- Sacrificial nature of the mass
- Confession
- Birth Control
- Holy water/oil/candles

- Any song that doesn't rhyme and has a tambourine in it.

Constance

[arunma]

Actually I don't mind the episcopacy. But I very much agree with you on the icons issue, and I wish that they would get rid of them. Too bad we iconoclasts lost out at the Second Nicene Council, huh?

[Diane_Windsor]

Monica,

The EM should not have given you a dirty look but just out of curiosity, how did you receive the Eucharist?

In the hand, but I didn't realize that you had to say Amen to receive the bread until my friend whispered it to me after standing there for several seconds.

Yeah, but it normally will not be in the pew.

That's why you print out the guide or look through it beforehand ;)

DIANE
:wave:

[constance]

Actually I don't mind the episcopacy. But I very much agree with you on the icons issue, and I wish that they would get rid of them. Too bad we iconoclasts lost out at the Second Nicene Council, huh?
Oh, I don't know, I think we had a great revival in the sixteenth century. Grab your pitchfork, sweetheart.

Constance

[53Isaiah]

Hello All

I was reading in another thread how some people are uncomfortable at Catholic services. I am curious as to why. Is it because you are unfamiliar with the liturgy and rituals? Do the people seem unfriendly? I used to be Evangelical and I know that people generally are not as outgoing and welcoming at Catholic Churches. Is the content of the Mass unsettling? Is it a combination of these things?


Thanks
Thou most things I see as non-biblical there are some things I consider un-biblical, and thus I choose not to fellowship with them.

[WarriorAngel]

Monica,

Well, when I first went to a RC service with a friend years ago I found that the parishoners were unfriendly. Then came communion, which a friend of mine said I could take. To make a long story short after I took the bread the guy holding the wine gave me the dirtiest look imaginable. I was completely turned away from the RCC at that very moment. The tip that I can give you is this: If you are an EM, or know one, NEVER under any circumstance, give a communicant a dirty look. It took me years to start getting interested in the RCC again, and get over the dirty look.



Actually, this guide (http://grigaitis.net/?doc=articles/guide.html) is much better than a confusing missalette.

DIANE
:wave:

Unfortunately your friend misled you.
Which she probably didnt know she did.

After being in OBOB many times, you probably understand why you got that look. Hope it helps you feel better knowing it wasnt you.

I just hope you know, OBOB can help in any area, if anyone so chooses to understand anything in the Mass.

May the Lord give you all Peace and Love.

Ps, sorry you had to feel this way....

[Athanasian Creed]

Plenty others, and I could list them for you if you'd like. But to be honest, if the Catholic Church made a clear and unequivocal statement that all non-Christians without exception are condemned to hell apart from direct, conscious faith in Christ (so as to preclude faith in Christ through other gods, or through the Jewish and Muslim understandings of the Messiah), then I wouldn't have many issues with the Catholic Church.

I would - and so did the martyrs of the Reformation. At that time, Romanism didn't embrace ecumenism as they do today yet there was PLENTY that the Reformers and other Christians disagreed with Rome doctrinally (and those doctrinal issues remain today, even moreso then in the days of the Reformation!) ;)


Ray :wave:

[Athanasian Creed]

Which theology do you find unbiblical?

And we should start where??!! :eek: The issues with Romanism are vast and extensive (contrary to most evangelicals today, clergy and layman who think otherwise - either forgetting the history of the Reformation or mistakenly believing Rome has changed) A summary i present below:

The Gospel of Grace Reveals:

Jesus Christ - His life, death and resurrection (1)

Salvation is...

Only through Christ (2)
A gift of God's grace (3)
By faith alone (3)
Attained by Christ (4)
At the moment a sinner believes the gospel (5)
Secured by God (6)
Sins are expiated by Christ's blood (7)
Salvation glorifies God alone (8)
The work of salvation is FINISHED (9)

(1)1 Cor. 15:1-4 (2)Acts 4:12 (3)Ephesians 2:8,9 (4)Romans 5:9
(5)Ephesians 1:13,14 (6)John 10:27-30 (7)Romans 3:25 (8)Ephesians 1:12
(9)John 19:30


The Gospel of Roman Catholicism Reveals:

A religious system of sacraments, indulgences, purgatory and prayers for/to the dead (1032;1471-79,1498) *

Salvation is...

Only through the RCC (846)
Merited by doing good works (1815,1821,2010,2027)
By faith plus the law, sacraments, and good works (1129,1131)
Attained by man (2010,2027)
A process from Baptism through Purgatory (161-2,1254-55)
Never assured in this life (1036,2005)
Sins are expiated by suffering in Purgatory (1030-31)
Mary and all the saints are also glorified (1476-77)
This work continues with daily sacrifices (611,1405)

* Numbers in parentheses denotes paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.



The Roman Catholic Church Is Structured According To O. T. Judaism Instead Of N. T. Christianity:


O.T.JUDAISM
ROMAN CATHOLICISM

1. The High Priest
The Pope

2. Jewish Priests
Catholic Priests

3. Continuous Sacrifices (Animal)
Continuous Sacrifices (The Mass)

4. The Temple
The Cathedral

5. The Holy City (Jerusalem)
The Holy City (Rome)

6. Physical Discipline (Even Unto Death)
Physical Discipline (Even Unto Death)

7. Passive Laity
Passive Laity

8. Under Law/Good Works
Under Law/Good Works

9. O.T. Worship with Incense, altar, etc.
Worship with incense, Altars, etc.

l0. Church/State As One
Church/State As One


Why should we continue to follow an old covenant of law/works when Christ has established a New Covenant of grace/faith? The book of Hebrews tells us that the Old Covenant with its priesthood, altars, ceremonies, sacrifices, etc., have all been fulfilled in the work of Christ. Hence they are forever GONE. ;)


Ray :wave:

[Imblessed]

The Roman Catholic Church Is Structured According To O. T. Judaism Instead Of N. T. Christianity:


O.T.JUDAISM
ROMAN CATHOLICISM

1. The High Priest
The Pope

2. Jewish Priests
Catholic Priests

3. Continuous Sacrifices (Animal)
Continuous Sacrifices (The Mass)

4. The Temple
The Cathedral

5. The Holy City (Jerusalem)
The Holy City (Rome)

6. Physical Discipline (Even Unto Death)
Physical Discipline (Even Unto Death)

7. Passive Laity ® Passive Laity

8. Under Law/Good Works
Under Law/Good Works

9. O.T. Worship with Incense, altar, etc.
Worship with incense, Altars, etc.

l0. Church/State As One
Church/State As One

I had never made that type of connection before.

Interesting...and a bit disturbing really.......

[MikeMcK]

And we should start where??!! :eek: The issues with Romanism are vast and extensive (contrary to most evangelicals today, clergy and layman who think otherwise - either forgetting the history of the Reformation or mistakenly believing Rome has changed) A summary i present below:

The Gospel of Grace Reveals:

Jesus Christ - His life, death and resurrection (1)

Salvation is...

Only through Christ (2)
A gift of God's grace (3)
By faith alone (3)
Attained by Christ (4)
At the moment a sinner believes the gospel (5)
Secured by God (6)
Sins are expiated by Christ's blood (7)
Salvation glorifies God alone (8)
The work of salvation is FINISHED (9)

(1)1 Cor. 15:1-4 (2)Acts 4:12 (3)Ephesians 2:8,9 (4)Romans 5:9
(5)Ephesians 1:13,14 (6)John 10:27-30 (7)Romans 3:25 (8)Ephesians 1:12
(9)John 19:30


The Gospel of Roman Catholicism Reveals:

A religious system of sacraments, indulgences, purgatory and prayers for/to the dead (1032;1471-79,1498) *

Salvation is...

Only through the RCC (846)
Merited by doing good works (1815,1821,2010,2027)
By faith plus the law, sacraments, and good works (1129,1131)
Attained by man (2010,2027)
A process from Baptism through Purgatory (161-2,1254-55)
Never assured in this life (1036,2005)
Sins are expiated by suffering in Purgatory (1030-31)
Mary and all the saints are also glorified (1476-77)
This work continues with daily sacrifices (611,1405)

* Numbers in parentheses denotes paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.



The Roman Catholic Church Is Structured According To O. T. Judaism Instead Of N. T. Christianity:


O.T.JUDAISM
ROMAN CATHOLICISM

1. The High Priest
The Pope

2. Jewish Priests
Catholic Priests

3. Continuous Sacrifices (Animal)
Continuous Sacrifices (The Mass)

4. The Temple
The Cathedral

5. The Holy City (Jerusalem)
The Holy City (Rome)

6. Physical Discipline (Even Unto Death)
Physical Discipline (Even Unto Death)

7. Passive Laity ® Passive Laity

8. Under Law/Good Works
Under Law/Good Works

9. O.T. Worship with Incense, altar, etc.
Worship with incense, Altars, etc.

l0. Church/State As One
Church/State As One


Why should we continue to follow an old covenant of law/works when Christ has established a New Covenant of grace/faith? The book of Hebrews tells us that the Old Covenant with its priesthood, altars, ceremonies, sacrifices, etc., have all been fulfilled in the work of Christ. Hence they are forever GONE. ;)


Ray :wave:

Excellent post. Sad but true.

There is Christianity as it's presented by the Catholic church and there is Christianity as it's presented by the Bible.

Never the twain shall meet.

[Athanasian Creed]

...There is Christianity as it's presented by the Catholic church and there is Christianity as it's presented by the Bible.

Never the twain shall meet.

Unfortunately the way it's going that will be the case - it seems as if the 'New Evangelicalism' movement within the Church is more interested in 'ecumenism' - union instead of true unity, a unity consistent with and built on Biblical truth!

Fifty or so years ago, the term 'Evangelicalism' referred to firm, Bible believing Christianity. As a rule, it traditionally describes Protestants who believed the Bible without reservation, who preached the new birth, and who were stidently opposed to Rome - they were militant soldiers for Christ.

"The New Evangelicalism is a theological and moral compromise of the deadliest sort. It is an insidious attack upon the Word of God...The NE advocates TOLERATION of error. It is following downward path of ACCOMODATION to error, COOPERATION with error, CONTAMINATION with error, and ultimately CAPITULATION to error !"
- Dr. Charles Woodbridge, former Fuller Theological Seminary professor, "The New Evangelicalism", pp. 9,15

"Bible believing Christians would do well to beware of the NE for four valid reasons. First, it is a movement BORN OF COMPROMISE. Secondly, it is a movement NURTURED IN PRIDE OF INTELLECT. Thirdly, it is a movement GROWING ON APPEASEMENT OF EVIL; and finally it is a movement DOOMED BY THE JUDGMENT OF GOD'S HOLY WORD."
- William Ashbrook, "Evangelicalism: The New Neutralism"

"A man, church, denomination or movement cannot reject Biblical seperation and a zealous defense of the whole counsel of God without paying the consequence of apostacy."
- David W. Cloud, "Evangelicals & Rome", pg. 17

Hopefully, what we share with Catholics about the errors within Catholicism is done in a spirit of humility and love, both for Christ and for them. Pray the Spirit of God use our testimony and defense for the truth of God's Word to bring them to the saving knowledge of the truth found only in God's Word, not in the traditions of men. May we all be found serving the true Jesus of the Bible and obeying the true Gospel of salvation! :prayer:


Ray:wave: