Mosaic Law question (SBC specific): Tithe, circumcision

[constance]

Hi - I had a rather interesting conversation with the spouse of an SBC pastor and wanted to understand if their opinions were "orthodox".

Could someone please provide me with any SBC-specific directive/teaching regarding the tithe, and also circumcision of male infants?

Thanks -

Constance

[DeaconDean]

As a member of the SBC I can say that the SBC hold that tithes from the individual should be 10% as said in the Bible (Deut. 12:6). Offerings are another thing, as since they are offerings, the amount to give is between the Lord and the individual. As far as circumcision is concerned, that is left up to the family. It is not required. Before Jesus Christ came, it was a symbol between the seed of Abraham and God (Rom. 4:11). But since Jesus came and tore down the middle partition, circumcision is not required (1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 5:6). Although it is partially a health concern and is done in that regards, Christians not being subject to the law once we come to faith in Jesus Christ, (Gal. 3:24-25) we are no longer under the law so the requirments are not for the Christian. Except for what Jesus Christ said:
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt. 22:37-40

So if you wish to have your son(s) circumcisized, I see nothing wrong with it. I believe it is the Jewish faith that practice what is called a "briss," a circumcision after the 8th day following birth.

[mlqurgw]

If I might ask, not being SBC, how do they justify a tithe as part of the Law but not circumcision?

[DeaconDean]

Because it was still observed in the N.T. See Matthew 23:23 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+23:23); Luke 11:42 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+11:42); 18:12 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+18:12) Didn't God give you your job? Why wouldn't you give Him back only the meager 10% that He asks? There is a story where the Hebrews would take the limbs of the mint plant and count the leaves on the limb. And every tenth one they would pluck off and set it aside for God.

As far as circumcision is concerned, didn't Paul say:
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." -Rom. 6:14

It is the circumcision of the heart which counts, not of the foreskin.

Something else which just come to mind, when Jesus was questioned about paying tribute(tax) did He not say:

"Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."-Matt. 22:17-21

Isn't it clear that Jesus was impling that we are to give to Caesar what he requires and to give to God what He requires?

[rural_preacher]

SBC churches are autonomous local churches with the freedom to approach such issues as an independent body...just as any other Baptist church. I am not currently in an SBC church (I have been in years gone by...I'm currently in a GARBC church), but I'd like to weigh in on this if I may. Of course, you're always free to ignore me. :P

I always teach my people that they should give as much as they can back to God. Ten percent is a good place to start, but we should give Him all we can of our money, time, talents, etc. Everything we have came from Him, so we are not giving Him a gift when we put money in the offering plate. We are giving back to Him a portion of what He has given us. And we are doing so to advance the work of the Gospel. Keep what you need to live on, give the rest to the work of God.

Giving is not a matter of the Law. It is a matter of recognizing that you are God's child. You belong to Him. Everything about you should be totally dedicated to His use and His purpose. Giving should be an easy thing for every Christian. We should be giving with generous and cheerful hearts.

From a practical standpoint. If you are benefiting from the ministry of your local church, you ought to be supporting that ministry by putting as much in the offering plate as you can as often as you can. Gaining from the ministry of others without contributing of yourself and your resources is like stealing (IMO).

As for circumcision...

Romans 4

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.



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[constance]

SBC churches are autonomous local churches with the freedom to approach such issues as an independent body...just as any other Baptist church.

Oh, good.


I always teach my people that they should give as much as they can back to God. Ten percent is a good place to start, but we should give Him all we can of our money, time, talents, etc. Everything we have came from Him, so we are not giving Him a gift when we put money in the offering plate. We are giving back to Him a portion of what He has given us. And we are doing so to advance the work of the Gospel. Keep what you need to live on, give the rest to the work of God.

Giving is not a matter of the Law. It is a matter of recognizing that you are God's child. You belong to Him. Everything about you should be totally dedicated to His use and His purpose. Giving should be an easy thing for every Christian. We should be giving with generous and cheerful hearts.
That's right! We get so hung up on the mention of tithing in the NT that we fail to realize that when it is mentioned is when Jesus is confronting Pharisees. When we look at how to give, it's more than money...



As for circumcision...

My sister in Christ's response was "I can't believe ANY Christian wouldn't circumcise their child"
I pointed out several chapters in Galatians, where we're told not to, and if we do, we're subject to the whole of the Law. when I did this, she criticized me for "using scripture to support my position" (imagine!)...
I further explained that it's really only Americans who routinely circumcise, and it's only been the past 150 years. Christians didn't circumcise. She didn't believe me.

So do SBCs on the whole consider themselves New Testament Christians? I grew up ABC, and am currently in another baptist-originated denomination (hubby is a preacher), but I consider myself to be "A BAPTIST".

Thanks -

Constance

[Andyman_1970]

Contextually one cannot justify tithing today using the Torah (example Deut. 12:6 that DeaconDean cited). No where does God "switch" what He defined the tithe to be, which was grain/produce/animals to currency as we practice it today.

In the year 2006 it is impossible to tithe as God in His Holy Word defined it.

[rural_preacher]

So do SBCs on the whole consider themselves New Testament Christians?

Yes. But that does not mean you will necessarily find every SBC church or every individual in SBC churches with a proper understanding of God's Word or of what it means to live in Christ.

Just as in every church and fellowship of churches, there are those who are walking with God according to His Word and His Spirit and there are those that are not.



-

[Phileoeklogos]

Just a quick comment, the only "official" SBC position on giving would be found in the Baptist Faith & Message 2000, Article XIII. Stewardship. SBC churches are freely associated and choose to be so, the BF&M 2000 is just a statement of commonly held beliefs, what truly defines any Baptist church would be that local church's Statement of Faith, some churches tithe, some don't.

As far as circumcision is concerned, whether a male child is circumcised or not, it makes no difference as long as no salvific/covenantial aspect is attached to it. Yes, SBC churches are New Testament churches.

[constance]

As far as circumcision is concerned, whether a male child is circumcised or not, it makes no difference as long as no salvific/covenantial aspect is attached to it. Yes, SBC churches are New Testament churches.

Thanks for the explanation regarding the SBC denom's teaching on giving.

I'm having a particularly difficult time rectifying this statement with several redundant passages like this one from Galatians 5:
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Thoughts?

Constance

[mlqurgw]

Thanks for the explanation regarding the SBC denom's teaching on giving.

I'm having a particularly difficult time rectifying this statement with several redundant passages like this one from Galatians 5:


Thoughts?

ConstanceI am afraid you lost me. What do seem to have a problem rectifying? A tithe is law and is not binding on the NT church. Circumcision, if done as a means to keep the law, means that Christ is useless to you. You aren't looking to Him but to the law. Christ is the end of the law, as in its purpose, fulfillment, termination and object.

[rural_preacher]

When Paul speaks of those who "let themselves be circumcised", he is speaking of those who would do it as part of earning their salvation or for the purpose of pleasing God. There is nothing wrong with being circumcised in itself. If one has their male child circumcised at birth because they believe it is healthier, that is okay. Just don't attach any spiritual value to it.



-

[mlqurgw]

When Paul speaks of those who "let themselves be circumcised", he is speaking of those who would do it as part of earning their salvation or for the purpose of pleasing God. There is nothing wrong with being circumcised in itself. If one has their male child circumcised at birth because they believe it is healthier, that is okay. Just don't attach any spiritual value to it.



-Very true. :)

[Andyman_1970]

I’d like to add some clarifying comments regarding statements about “the Law”:

\ Christ is the end of the law, as in its purpose, fulfillment, termination and object.

Jesus did not do away with Torah, He never taught that, if He did teach that Jews no longer had to follow Torah He would have been a false Messiah. Gentiles are only obligated to follow that is outlined in Acts 15 in regards to Torah.

When a Jewish rabbi, which Jesus was, uses terms like “fulfill” with regards to Torah it means to correctly interpret not to do away with or end. God gave us His interpretation of Torah through the teachings of Jesus (God manifested in human form).

When Paul speaks of those who "let themselves be circumcised", he is speaking of those who would do it as part of earning their salvation or for the purpose of pleasing God.


One thing to remember early Christianity was a sect of Judaism, so there were still many Jewish Christians who were under the impression that if a Gentile wanted to become a follower of Jesus they had to become Jewish to do that. This of course is not true according to Acts 15.

The situation in Galatia was never a salvation issue, as 2nd Temple Judaism never taught that salvation is works based, but only comes by God’s grace through faith (sound familiar). Much of the early church was made up of Jews from the Pharisee sect, that placed a great importance on following Torah, while a good impulse we see in Galatia that some Jewish Christians got a bit carried away in their passion for Torah.

Anyway this has been an interesting thread, I thought I would just throw in a few comments.

[mlqurgw]

I’d like to add some clarifying comments regarding statements about “the Law”:



Jesus did not do away with Torah, He never taught that, if He did teach that Jews no longer had to follow Torah He would have been a false Messiah. Gentiles are only obligated to follow that is outlined in Acts 15 in regards to Torah.

When a Jewish rabbi, which Jesus was, uses terms like “fulfill” with regards to Torah it means to correctly interpret not to do away with or end. God gave us His interpretation of Torah through the teachings of Jesus (God manifested in human form).



One thing to remember early Christianity was a sect of Judaism, so there were still many Jewish Christians who were under the impression that if a Gentile wanted to become a follower of Jesus they had to become Jewish to do that. This of course is not true according to Acts 15.

The situation in Galatia was never a salvation issue, as 2nd Temple Judaism never taught that salvation is works based, but only comes by God’s grace through faith (sound familiar). Much of the early church was made up of Jews from the Pharisee sect, that placed a great importance on following Torah, while a good impulse we see in Galatia that some Jewish Christians got a bit carried away in their passion for Torah.

Anyway this has been an interesting thread, I thought I would just throw in a few comments.I will have to say that I disagree with you concerning your clarifications. Christ didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He did so and according to Paul ( Rom. 10:4) Christ is the end of the law. The situation in Galatia was a salvation issue. Paul says he does not frustrate the grace of God, if righteousness comes by the law then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal. 2:21 ) In 4:11 he says he is afriad that he has bestowed on them labor in vain. He calls the law weak and beggerly elements. 4:9.

[Andyman_1970]

I will have to say that I disagree with you concerning your clarifications. Christ didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

I agree, when a Jewish rabbi says "fulfill" with regards to Torah it means to correctly interpret.....which is what a rabbi's purpose was, to interprete the Torah. Jesus didn't get rid of the Torah, He gave us God's interpretation of it.

He did so and according to Paul ( Rom. 10:4) Christ is the end of the law. The situation in Galatia was a salvation issue. Paul says he does not frustrate the grace of God, if righteousness comes by the law then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal. 2:21 ) In 4:11 he says he is afriad that he has bestowed on them labor in vain. He calls the law weak and beggerly elements. 4:9.

I don't want to deviate from the OP with a discussion on Paul and the Torah, but fair to say you and I have divergent understandings of Paul's writings.

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion outside of my statements.............feel free to carry on inspite of my posts.......LOL

[Phileoeklogos]

Hey, this is getting juicy now, since I don't have the time right now, I'd like to start a new thread on Jesus and fufilling the law, I think taking a look at just a few verses clears this matter up, I know alot of people find this confusing, so I hope we can bring it to light, if not, I'm sure it will generate some heat, because it always does..........................

[mlqurgw]

Hey, this is getting juicy now, since I don't have the time right now, I'd like to start a new thread on Jesus and fufilling the law, I think taking a look at just a few verses clears this matter up, I know alot of people find this confusing, so I hope we can bring it to light, if not, I'm sure it will generate some heat, because it always does..........................I will put on my fire suit. ;)

[JPPT1974]

My brother & brother in law
Know what it is like to put on a fire suit
As they both are firemen!:thumbsup: