Rev. Moon discovered the true nature of the fall

[Rev Moon jr]

Rev. Moon discovered the true nature of the human "fall"

How did the human “fall” develop and multiple?

What is the process and motivation of the human “fall”?

The Sin of the Angel and the Sin of the First Man and Woman
What was the sin of the angel? Jude 6-7 says,

"And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise [like the angels] acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
[KJV- fornication]

The sin of the angel (in the Garden) was the sin of fornication. Since fornication cannot be committed alone, there must have been a partner. But who could it have been? The Bible tells us of only three beings that sinned in the Garden of Eden; the serpent and Adam and Eve. Let us consider what the sin of the first man and woman could have been.

In Genesis 3:7 we read that after being tempted by the serpent and committing sin, the first ancestors became ashamed of their nakedness and covered the lower parts of their bodies. However, before their fall Adam and Eve were naked but unashamed (Gen 2:25). Then when we read that they covered the lower, or sexual, parts of their bodies with fig leaves after they sinned, we must ask ourselves whether man also committed the sin of fornication.
It is in fallen man's nature to try to conceal his faults and wrongs; so if the fruit of good and evil were a fruit in the literal sense, Adam and Eve should have covered their hands or mouths if they had taken the fruit with their hands or had eaten it with their mouths. Yet we find that they covered their sexual parts, not their hands and mouths. This is an indication that Adam and Eve's transgression involved their sexual parts. Job 31:33 says, "...I have concealed my transgression...like Adam by hiding my iniquity in my bosom" (emphasis added). Job's words indicate that Adam concealed his transgression, and since we know that Adam and Eve concealed their sexual parts, we can conclude that their sin involved their sexual parts.
In the Garden of Eden, the only sin that man would possible commit at the risk of his life was a sin involving love. Adam and Eve were to grow as brother and sister, and, after perfecting themselves, were to establish the Kingdom of Heaven by becoming the first husband and wife and creating God's family, fulfilling the Purpose of the Creation. However, when Jesus says in John 8:44, "'You are of your father the devil...,'" he clearly shows that fallen people are descendants of the Devil. Adam and Eve forsook God, their true father, and became one with a false father, Satan, which is the reason that Romans 8:23 says, "...we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (emphasis added). The fact that we are waiting for adoption into God's lineage tells us that we are not of God's lineage. In Matthew 3:7 and Matthew 23:33, respectively, John the Baptist and Jesus called the people a "brood of vipers"--in other words, the offspring of serpents-clearly indicating that fallen man is the offspring of Satan. Thus we can clearly understand that fallen man belongs to Satan's lineage, not God's. This is the result of Eve's committing the sin of fornication with the angel. As a result of this crime, all human beings have been born as the "children" of Satan.

[carma]

There was one sin in the Fall of man and that was disobedience of God.

It was eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. It is not a metaphor for "sex", it is not a metaphor for "fornication", it means simply, they ate the fruit of a Tree that was forbidden them.

And again.....

This is not the teaching of Jesus Christ, this is a different gospel. If anyone has any questions concerning what has been presented here, please start a thread and ask those questions and we will all look to scripture and find the truth.

[Rev Moon jr]

Thank God that people have their own responsibility to decide what is true. Let each person ask God and look into their own heart for answers. I believe people will know the truth when they hear it, if they are not blocked by
self-centered, narrow-minded beliefs that exclude God's viewpoint, God's Spirit, new prophesy, new visions, new dreams and all other sources for truth necessary for good judgement.
" And in the Last Days it shall be, God declairs, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams...I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"
This is the year 2001, God will not repeat what He said 2,000 years ago.

The Fruit of Good and Evil and the Root of Sin

Since a tree reproduces itself by its fruit (which bears the seeds) and man reproduces by a sexual relationship, then the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil symbolizes the sexual love of Eve. The fact that Eve ate the fruit which Satan persuaded her to eat means that she committed fornication with Satan. Since eating something means to make it a part of our flesh and blood, Eve's giving Adam the fruit of good and evil and his eating it means that Eve caused Adam to fall through this same act of illicit love.

Therefore, the root of sin is not the first human ancestors' eating a literal fruit, but their establishing a blood relationship through fornication with the archangel, who was symbolized by the serpent, This blood relationship is the cause for the Original Sin's being passed on from generation to generation. All religions which try to remove sin have branded and treated adultery as one of the greatest sins. Based on this view of Original Sin, we can understand why the Israelites had to be circumcised to be considered God's chosen people. It was required in order to make restitution for the misuse of the sexual parts, by which man had become Satan's descendants. We may be able to put a stop to all other sins through social, educational, or economic improvements, but even though civilization develops and social and economic conditions improve to the point where we can enjoy a more stable life, the increase of sexual promiscuity and of man's inclination toward moral degradation cannot be stopped by anyone.

The reason that Satan is able to break down the proper order of man's love as the Last Days approach is because the first ancestors became husband and wife without the permission or blessing of God and united with Satan an their false father. Their children where thus born as children of sin, and not of God, and they established a world of faithlessness, evil, and war. Consequently, Satan has dominated man as he has seen fit (Jn 8:44).

Despite the fact that God created man and the cosmos, He has never been able to have the central role in any of the world's affairs--to rule according to his Will alone. Man cast Satan in the starring role, and Satan has been falsely playing the part of the lord. It is for this reason that Satan is referred to as "the ruler of this world" (Jn 12:31) and "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4).

[carma]

You aren't the first one that has taught the HERESY and you won't be the last.

Why don't you answer the questions about who Jesus Christ is, who Moon is, what Moon thinks he is supposed to do?

Are you afraid to give those answers because you know what people will say?

Thank God that people have their own responsibility to decide what is true. Let each person ask God and look into their own heart for answers. I believe people will know the truth when they hear it, if they are not blocked by
self-centered, narrow-minded beliefs that exclude God's viewpoint, God's Spirit, new prophesy, new visions, new dreams and all other sources for truth necessary for good judgement.

Yes, thank God most people here know Blasphemous Heresy when they see it, they know the scriptures speak truth when they say, "I am the way, the life and truth and NO ONE comes to the Father but through ME.

Notice something? Rev Moons name is not there, there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ, He paid it all and Rev Moon has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

[Rev Moon jr]

The thread is: Rev. Moon discovered the true nature of the fall.

If you would like to talk about Rev. Moon, start a new thread. Try www.unification.net or www.tparents.org
to get more information. There is no perfection in ignorance.

[onesheep]

You can't discuss this without discussing Reverend Moon himself since you are stating that he found the truth. The statement itself is an untruth and Reverend Moon is a false prophet. That is something is something you cannot get around. So if you want to discuss that, you're going to have to get into the unreliability and falseness of the person you believe to have found the truth.

[carma]

Since you brought up starting a thread, I did and since it was your idea, I assume you will participate.

The thread is located here, in the Round Tables Forum:

pub16.ezboard.com/fleftbe...=378.topic (http://pub16.ezboard.com/fleftbehindmessageboardthenarrowroad.showMessage?topicID=378.topic)

[Rev Moon jr]

Discussing Rev. Moon in the context of this thread is fine. I can only hope that good people will try to make effort to understand the truth being revealed.

[carma]

Wait a second.....you said this:

The thread is: Rev. Moon discovered the true nature of the fall.

If you would like to talk about Rev. Moon, start a new thread. Try www.unification.net or www.tparents.org
to get more information. There is no perfection in ignorance.

So I started another thread, just like you said. I started it with the expectations that you would participate in it, that is what you made it sound like.

I do not understand since you are the only Moonie on the board, that you will not participate in it.

What are you afraid of? I have never been afraid to state my beliefs, to anyone. If someone knows they are right, they do not refuse to discuss their beliefs. The only reason they generally refuse to discuss their beliefs is if they know there is a problem with them.

When you come to a board that discusses religion, Christianity in particular, you can't expect not to have your beliefs discussed or questioned. That is part of this board for EVERYONE.

Now you have been given an opportunity to explain your beliefs to us and if your beliefs are different than what we think they are, then I am sure that you want to make sure that we know what they are and they we don't believe something about your beliefs that is incorrect.

Anybody else would do that.

So, are you going to discuss Rev Moon or not?

[Rev Moon jr]

I have no problem discussing anything about Rev. Moon.
His life on earth will benefit every man, woman and child.

When people who know so little start saying his teachings are false because some are different from theirs, well, I'm not so moved to share.

When such people point to sites other than official Unification Church sites and say this is where the truth about the UC can be found, that is just not right.

Rev. Moon describes what it means to fulfill the purpose of creation, in thousands of speeches. The time is soon coming when his experience with God will be desired by everyone. It is truly inspirational! [personal experience] God has provided mass communication to make sure this is possible.
Rev. Moon is creating a world-wide culture of true marriage and true family. Through ideal families, God's love will be manifested in all our lives. It will happen! [Christians don't even seem to have a clue what God is doing. God blessed Christians for the sake of the rest of the world and they gave the world a few crumbs and kept the rest for themselves.]
Rev. Moon teaches that God's way is to give and give and forget what you have given and give more. If you want to know Rev. Moon, just follow this way. This is how Rev. Moon met God. This is the way of God and Jesus and anyone who will be called the true Son and Daughters of God. Living for the sake of others will naturally separate anyone from satan, who is selfish and self-centered. It's the narrow road and the true road. It works!

[carma]

We don't need any sites, for or against to look at.

If you want to explain the beliefs as if talking to people that have never heard them, all we need for verification of your beliefs or mine, is scripture, that's it.

[Rev Moon jr]

One of the more ludicrous beliefs of some Christians is to limit Almighty God to the Christian scriptures, at the exclusion of all else. Who would make God so small.

[carma]

One of the more ludicrous beliefs of some Christians is to limit Almighty God to the Christian scriptures, at the exclusion of all else. Who would make God so small.

One of the biggest errors is to believe that God has private relevations and interpretations that conflict with scripture.

One is not a serious error if it is true, the other is fatal.

[Rev Moon jr]

The Creation of the Angels
With what motive and by what process did Adam and Eve and the angel fall in the Garden of Eden?
God first created the angels as servants to help with his creation and administration of the world (Heb 1:14). However, since man was created as the child of God and was to have dominion over the Creation, man was also to have dominion over the angles. The reason that today angels are usually considered higher than man is that because of the Fall, man became so corrupt (Jer 17:9) that he stood in a position lower than the things of the Creation, including the angels.
The Spiritual Fall
Lucifer (Is 14:12) was in the position of archangel and was thus the channel for God's love to the angelic world. It seemed as if only he were in a position to receive God's love. However, since Adam and Eve were created as God's children, God loved them much more than he did Lucifer, who was created as a servant. Yet, in no way did Lucifer actually receive any less love from God after Adam and Eve's creation than he did before their creation. However, by God's giving so much more love to Adam and Eve, Lucifer felt as though there had been a reduction in the amount of love he was receiving. Because of this feeling, Lucifer then tried to supplement the love he received by coming closer to Adam and Eve.
Because God's love is the source of life and beauty, Eve, who received much love from God, was very beautiful in Lucifer's eyes. Lucifer was often very close to Eve and was strongly stimulated by an impulse of love toward her. Eve, still being in a state of imperfection, was susceptible to Lucifer's temptation, and they committed the sin of fornication. This was the spiritual fall.
One might ask how it is possible for a sexual relationship to take place between an angel and a human being. This question arises only because man's spiritual perception fell to such a low state due to the Fall. However, in Genesis 32:25, the Bible shows that direct contact between man and angel is possible when it records that an angel wrestled with Jacob and dislocated his hip.
The Physical Fall
When Eve united with the archangel (through their spirit selves), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience, and she gained the knowledge that her intended spouse was Adam, not the angel.
Eve wanted to restore her relationship with God and she also wanted to rid herself of the fear derived from the Fall. Adam was her only hope for returning to God, and Eve thought she could accomplish this by even then becoming one with Adam, who was meant to be her spouse, and so she seduced Adam. This was the motive of the physical fall.
As explained in "The Principles of the Creation," Adam and Eve were to realize the Three Blessings. In order to do this they ultimately had to become husband and wife. In other words, the Ideal for the Creation was for Adam and Eve to perfect themselves individually and then become husband and wife of eternal love, centered on God. But because they acted as husband and wife prematurely and centered on Satan, their relationship resulted in the Fall and not in the realization of God's ideal. By uniting with Eve, Adam inherited the evil elements which Eve had received from Lucifer. These evil elements were then transmitted to their descendants from generation to generation.
If the first ancestors had not "eaten of the fruit of good and evil," they would have perfected themselves as the son and the daughter of God, and then, blessed by God, they would have become husband and wife centered on God's love and produced children with natures of goodness, fulfilling the Ideal for the Creation. Then, after Eve fulfilled the Ideal for the Creation, her love would have been a fruit of goodness, and she would have been likened to a tree of goodness.
However, before she could become perfect, Eve committed the sin of fornication with the archangel and became a fallen person. She furthermore caused Adam to fall, thus creating the first of the fallen families, none of which God can work through. Therefore, fallen Eve was likened to a tree of the knowledge of evil and her love to a fruit of that tree.
In retrospect, we can see that since just prior to the Fall, Eve was in a position to become either a tree of goodness, by accomplishing the Purpose of the Creation, or a tree of evil, by falling, she was symbolized by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Since prior to the Fall, Eve's love was capable of bearing either a fruit of goodness, fulfilling the Purpose of the Creation, or a fruit of evil causing the Fall, her love was symbolized by a fruit of good and evil.
According to "The Principles of the Creation," God was to accomplish the purpose of man's creation through love. Thus love is the source of man's joy, life, and happiness. However, because the first ancestors disobeyed the rules of heaven, and fell, love itself was corrupted, and Satan has dominated man and has made him suffer. Thus Satan, who corrupted man's love, is the ringleader behind the destruction of the ideal family. DP

[carma]

I pray that God has mercy on your soul at your judgment, you are going to need it.

[mikitta]

Sung Myung Moon is sorely decieved. All who follow him blindly are also decieved and have no part in Christ. RMJr, that means you. You have been decieved and led astray. You have blasphemed the Name of Christ. You have followed after false doctrine, putting your trust in the blind to lead you.

Here is the point. Call out to Christ Jesus. Admit that you are a sinner and that His is the ONLY name given under heaven to save you. Accept that salvation and run very far from the dangerous and destructive cult that holds you in bondage.

I will be praying that the Lord in His infinite wisdom and mercy will prompt your heart and lead you out of slavery to Sung Myung Moon.

God Bless,
mik

[Rev Moon jr]

I have confidence that the humble and pure will understand. I see it all the time.
What is interesting is that we are living at a time when Adam and Eve are telling their own story as to what really happened in the garden. Most people have never thought that there would come a time when God would allow all the Biblical personages to convey to people on earth their personal testimonies. This is the time of HIGH NOON when all truth will be revealed. No more shadows and church mysteries. I feel sorry for those who are locked into their small minded beliefs and cannot receive the outpouring of God’s Spirit. These are truly the Last Days.

[Rev Moon jr]

How It Was Possible For Man To Fall
The Force of Love and the Force of The Principle
Man was created to grow to perfection, moved from within during the growth period, or period of indirect dominion, by the force of The Principle to live in accordance with The Principle. Therefore, the force of The Principle cannot itself derail man from the track of The Principle and make him fall. But prior to perfection man is liable to be derailed from the track if hit by a force stronger than that of The Principle, which directs man's growth. The only force stronger than that of The Principle is the force of love, Then while man is still imperfect, prior to experiencing the perfect love of God's direct dominion, it is possible for him to fall because of non-Principle "love," love directed toward a purpose different from God's.
Then why did God make the force of love stronger than the force of The Principle? Love is the motive and purpose for God's creating the Creation, and therefore, love is the most precious aspect of all things, To the Creation it is the source of life, happiness, and joy. Although God created all things in accordance with The Principle, or laws, since he ultimately desired a dominion of love, he made love the strongest force.
The Purpose of the Commandment and the Period Necessary for It
Because the force of love is stronger than the force of The Principle, there is always the possibility that during his growth period a person may fall due to non-Principle "love." What can prevent this? Once the force of non-Principle "love" comes into play during their period when a person is still imperfect and not directly in the dominion of God's love, he may fall. In order to prevent this, God game man the commandment 'not to eat of the fruit of good and evil'. As long as the human ancestors had faithfully kept the commandment, they would not have established a reciprocal base with the archangel. Accordingly, the force of non-Principle "love" would not have come into existence. However, since they did not maintain their faith and observe the commandment, but instead established a reciprocal base and a give and take relationship with the archangel, the force of immoral "love" caused them to deviate from the track of The Principle.
Then how long would God have required the first ancestors to keep the commandment "not to eat," which is the condition of faith that God gave them? Once Adam and Eve had perfected themselves and established horizontal love as husband and wife centered on God, there would have been no force that could break that love, because the love created between them would have been absolute love. Then, after having perfected themselves, they could never have fallen. The force of the lower-level love of the archangel cannot violate the love between a perfected husband and a perfected wife. Accordingly, God's commandment 'not to eat' was required only as long as Adam and Eve were still in the period prior to their perfection.

[carma]

What is interesting is that we are living at a time when Adam and Eve are telling their own story as to what really happened in the garden. Most people have never thought that there would come a time when God would allow all the Biblical personages to convey to people on earth their personal testimonies. This is the time of HIGH NOON when all truth will be revealed. No more shadows and church mysteries. I feel sorry for those who are locked into their small minded beliefs and cannot receive the outpouring of God’s Spirit. These are truly the Last Days.

Rev Moon, jr, let me put it to you this way.

What you are trying to sell here is nothing but a cheap imitation, it is fool's gold.

You are passing off lies of hell as truths of God. What you have posted can't be found in scripture at all. Genesis is very clear in the story of Adam and Eve and nothing you have posted is there.

You are following a false prophet, a man who claims to be a messiah, which is a false messiah. Scripture is clear what will happen to this man if he does not repent, false prophets will go to hell and you are following right on his heels as long as you believe every lie that comes from his lips.

Your only hope is Jesus Christ and you will not find Jesus Christ associated with Rev Moon in any way, shape or form. If he does not repent and turn to Christ, he will be in the Lake of Fire right along with all the other false prophets and false messiahs that Jesus Christ warned us about.

[ChosenbyHim]

These are truly the Last Days.
Yep. On this ONE point, we agree. However, it was the true Messiah, Jesus, who said that many false prophets would arise in the last days claiming to be the true one or Messiah. Rev. Moon is a fine example of this.

Chosen

[Rev Moon jr]

Satan and Fallen Man
What were the results brought about in the Creation by the spiritual and physical falls of Adam and Eve and the archangel? Let us consider this by comparing the results of the Fall with what would have happened if Adam and Eve had not fallen, but had realized the Three Blessings.
If Adam and Eve had not fallen, but instead had achieved the perfection of their individual characters by becoming the incarnations of God's vertical love, they would have become husband and wife, establishing God's horizontal love, and they would have borne children with natures of goodness. Then, the Four Position Foundation through which they could experience the direct dominion of God's love would have been realized, But because Adam and Eve fell and became the embodiment of sin as a result of the
non-Principle love initiated by the archangel, God, who is the lord of The Principle, was excluded, and a pseudo Four Position Foundation was established centered on Satan's false 'love' and on Satan, who has falsely played the role of the lord. This is the reason that the Bible says fallen people are the children of Satan (Jn 8:44) and that he is "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4) and "the ruler of this world" (Jn 12:31).
Originally man was to have dominion over the angels, as well as over the rest of the Creation. However, Satan reversed this and came to dominate man and the cosmos. Therefore, as Romans 8:19 says, "...the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God...." Because of man's fall, all things are crying out to be freed from the dominion of Satan and to experience the dominion of true persons.
Satan's Actions in the Fallen World
How does Satan control the fallen world? Even Satan, who is "ruler of this world," can perform satanic actions only when he has an object with whom he has a reciprocal base. Satan's objects are evil spirit persons (those who dwell in the spirit world); their objects are the spirit selves of persons on earth; and, of course, the objects responding to people's spirit selves are their own physical bodies. Accordingly, Satan's power is manifested in persons on earth through the influence of evil spirits in the spirit world. Furthermore, since Satan is a spirit being, he can manifest himself transcendent of time and space, as long as he has a reciprocal base. When Luke 22:3 says that Satan entered into Judas Iscariot, it means that by establishing a reciprocal base and having a give and take relationship with Satan, Judas became the instrument of Satan.
To restore the Kingdom of Heaven on earth means to realize the world in which Satan cannot act at all. To do this, every person must completely dissolve his relationship with Satan and restore a relationship with heaven, having a give and take relationship with God, through Jesus. DP

[mikitta]

RMJr, you are listening to and believing in a very dangerous false gospel. One that has replaced the Glory of the incoruptible God with the lies of a swindler and cheat named Sung Myung Moon. He blasphemes every time he opens his mouth. When you repeat his lies, you also blaspheme the Holy, Righteous and Just God who is revealed only in the Bible. Turn away from the death that now ensnares you and turn to the righteous and Living Christ who longs to save your soul!

God Bless,
mik

[Josephus]

Gen 3: 13
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

The sin of the serpant was when it deceived Eve. There is no mention of it fornicating with Eve (besides, can you honestly see a woman having sex with a snake?). If we are children of this snake, then why don't we have scales?


Next, Eve commited the sin of pride, not fornication:

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

The first recorded sin is the snake decieving Eve - if indeed you can call it a sin. The next is Eve not resisting the temptation, and put her desires for herself first and foremost in front of the desires of God (in other words when she ate the fruit she committed the sin of PRIDE not fornication).

You can't sin where there is no law, for it is the law that defines sins and codifies the transgression. Fornication wasn't a sin because God never gave that command. The one and only command around was not to eat of the tree of good and evil. The law defines an action. The action comes from the heart. The heart is what sins.

When Adam and Eve as one man (one flesh) ate and sinned, their eyes were opened for indeed they realized the nature of their sin and sought to hide from each other and from God. A prideful heart always demands oneself to protect that pride. Never is someone so naked and open as when they are naked in front of someone. It is the ultimate pride-buster and that is why the Nazis forced people to run around naked. When Adam and Eve had pride in their hearts, they sought to protect what they had "gained" as knowledge in that realization. With that realization they hid from God and from each other, just as we still do today - both physically and spiritually. That is the nature of the fall. The "fall" is from relationship. We didn't "fall" from the purity of sex. We fell from the relationship we had with God - and ONLY when BOTH the man and woman ate did the COMBINED man sin and forever was changed their perception of good and evil: humility and pride.

The choice between humility and pride is the heart condition that God based his simple command for man to live with so that they could choose to love God or himself. God didn't want robots to love him out of program. He created us with choice so that we could CHOOSE to love him. This is based from the heart, and the heart has that simple choice before it always: humility or pride. Before eating of the tree, Adam and Eve lived in total humility before the LORD and each other. After they ate, they lived in pride and had to have that pride atoned for because they now knew how to walk in pride and once you have that knowledge, you can't take it away - all you can do is have God forgive you for it through His means of atonement. Thus that is why God killed animals to make skins for Adam and Eve. The transgression of the tree command required the death of them in that day. But instead of them dying, he kills an animal in the first recorded death in the bible and that blood atones for their sin. Still though, the man and woman die under the 1000 year limit of the God-lived day because they can no longer get rid of the knowledge of pride and how to walk in it. That very knowledge became their nature and we still have that "sin" nature today. Pride is root of sin. I call our nature a "pride" nature, but because we know about pride and act in it - when we do act in pride, we sin; so no matter what, we can't get around it. I'm sorry friend, but all we have to rely on is God's atonement for our sins - and thank Him that He paid the ultimate atonement that we are impossible to pay. With his atonement comes the guarantee of freedom from this body that knows how to act in the knowledge of pride. When we die (as the sin of pride demands), and raise to new life, our bodies (those in Christ) are transformed into new and perfect bodies without sin or the knowledge of pride for we will have been totally atoned for.

Ah, but I could go on. I hope though you have read some important points I would love for you to sit down with your bible and reconsider. Mr. Moon obviously hasn't spent much time reading his.

[Rev Moon jr]

Good and Evil Seen from the Viewpoint of Purpose
If Adam and Eve had become the incarnations of goodness and established the Four Position Foundation with love centered on God, they would have realized the world of Goodness. Yet, because they related through love that was directed toward a purpose other than God's, they became incarnations of evil, established a pseudo Four Position Foundation (centered on Satan), and established a world of evil.
Although in their initial stages of development good and evil actions appear to be similar to one another, as they move to accomplish their opposing goals they become separate and distinct. Good and evil are not innately decided by the particular action or type of action and result themselves, but are decided by whether the motive, direction, and purpose are toward the Will of God or toward the will of Satan.
Sin
Sin is an act or thought which violates heavenly law, creating the condition through which one forms a reciprocal base with Satan and enters into a give and take relationship with him, directly or indirectly. In the ideal world which God originally conceived of, sin could not exist--there could not be a sinful act in the realm of God's love, for Satan could not exist there. As the result of Adam's and Eve's forming a reciprocal base with Satan and sinning, man lives in the non-Principle world and commits sin by becoming Satan's partner, directly or indirectly.
Sin can be classified as Original Sin, Hereditary Sin, Collective Sin, and Personal Sin. Original Sin is the sin derived from the spiritual and physical fall of the first man and woman. It is the root of all sin. Hereditary Sin is the sin which is inherited from one's ancestors through the blood lineage (as mentioned in the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:5) ). This sin is analogous to the trunk of a tree. Collective Sin is neither one's own sin nor hereditary sin, but is the sin for which everyone is partially responsible as a member of mankind. The faithlessness of John the Baptist, the chief priests, and the scribes toward Jesus was responsible for his crucifixion. Though a relatively small group of people was directly responsible for the Crucifixion, Christianity, in particular, and mankind as a whole, have had to bear the responsibility for that sin and as a result have suffered greatly. Collective Sin is like the branches of a tree. Personal Sin is the sin committed by each individual. Such sins may be compared to the leaves of a tree. All sins originate with Original Sin, which is the root of all sin. Thus, man cannot be finally cleansed of any sin without first being cleansed of Original Sin.DP

[Josephus]

Mr. Moon, you have no scriptural definition for sin. You have theory and philosophy, but it just doesn't line up with what I see in scripture.

What is sin?

Sin is the action of seperation from God. Period. Before creation, there was God. Sin did not exist because creation did not. God created - and when he did, he created something other than himself.

God then gave his creation free will to choose between Himself or itself. Satan choose himself over God and thus it was called Pride. Pride led to further and further seperation from God until the point of Judgement came when he was removed from Heaven. In the final End, Satan will no longer exist in the universe as God is present everywhere and sin can no co-exist with Him.

Biblical definition:

1John 3:4 "sin is lawlessness."

Romans 8:7 "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

Romans 7:14 "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."


Satan is a spirit. When God created creation, he created creation to glorify himself.

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

Satan's pride caused him to fall.

12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
13
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
15
But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

That "falling" was a fall from the righteousness of God, from relationship with the Most High, a fall from life into death. Indeed, a true seperation. How easily it is that pride blinds us the death that it leads us towards.

Obadiah 1:3 "The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks and make your home on the heights, you who say to yourself, `Who can bring me down to the ground?'"


Pride is by definition the nature of the fall, and the original sin.

Proverbs 8:13 "To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."

Pride always comes before a fall.

Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall."

So it (sin) starts with pride. But salvation begins humility in accepting that you are a sinner and that you need a Savior.

The original sin was no doubt caused by the pride of the angel Lucifer who became the Devil as a result of his fallen state. This lead Satan into even more prideful acts for sin is indeed prideful and selfish. You NEVER can sin acting in humility. Sin is by nature a result of gratifying a prideful selfish desire. This idol worship of self is totally contrary to what God desires and knows is best for us: a life of humble righteousness in close, intimate, and loving relationship of one true God of all creation. The one who was, is, and is still to come. The Alpha and Omega - our Redeemer and Friend. Our Savior and our Counselor. The Lord Almighty.

Fornication is not the original sin. You can't trace all sins of humanity back to a root in fornication. NO! You can however, trace the root of all sin to something called PRIDE.

Repent of pride, or it will lead you into destruction. Come back to a Holy and loving God who truly waits for you with arms open wide - though his patience is not infinite as death is by the means in which we cross the point of no return.

[carma]

Fornication is not the original sin. You can't trace all sins of humanity back to a root in fornication. NO! You can however, trace the root of all sin to something called PRIDE.

Indeed, pride was also the cause of the fall of satan from his position.

[ChosenbyHim]

Rev. Moon, you present much rhetoric without any Biblical scriptures to back up these theories. I for one, would appreciate any time you post your (Moon's) theology, to back up every point with at least one scripture, just as we have done with you in the past. Can we please see you do this with your future posts?

Respectfully requested,
Chosen

[Rev Moon jr]

Believe it or not, the entire Bible is part of God’s efforts to restore true love. Adam and Eve lost true God-centered love.
Why is Abraham considered the “father of faith” for the chosen people? And what exactly was required of Abraham in order to establish a covenant with God?
Abraham had to establish an indemnity condition to reverse the fall. Abraham had to symbolically let out the satanic blood, due to the act of fornication between Eve and Lucifer and then between Eve and Adam, by striking the foreskin of his ***** and all males thereafter followed this condition. There is a direct connection between what happened in the garden and establishing a covenant with God later on.
Only a misuse of love could destroy God’s ideal and only the proper use of love can restore God’s ideal. Only true love can remove false love. This is embodied in Jesus’ two great commandments.
God was working through Israel to restore purity, to the point of death.[stoning] There was a reason for this. Jesus came to restore purity and the family, without which God cannot restore His original ideal.
I understand that many Christians [like Jews] are bound to their scriptures. There is little God can say to them. But almighty God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh and revealing the truth to those who ask, seek and knock.

[carma]

And still you post no scriptures to back your beliefs.

Rev Moon, without scripture, it is your opinion and well, you know the saying, everyone has an opinion.

[Jesusong]

Rev Moon Jr, One of the most plainest teachings of Scripture is that all doctrines must be supported by the Scriptures. The Apostle Paul in writing to the Galatian church states:
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Gal 1:6-9 (NIV)

In the Book of Isaiah it's stated in a different way: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 8:20 (KJV)

In order for a teaching or doctrine to have merit, it must be supported by the Scriptures. Otherwise the teaching is false & cannot be accepted by the Church.

[ChosenbyHim]

Maybe it's time for a title change to "Rhetoric Man" ;)

Chosen

[Pastor Carl]

I may tramp on some others theology also in this post, but I feel I need to make a point here.

I do not believe that Scripture indicates that angels, good or fallen, including Satan himself, have sexual capabilities. If they had they would have tried to reproduce themselves in order to outnumber the angels that have remained true to God. They are created beings with no sexuality in and of themselves. They cannot reproduce. They can bear no children. They are asexual.

Jesus said when questioned by the Pharisees: "At the resurrection they(people) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels." Sexual untion will not will not occur for believers in heaven and neither have or does it occur within the species of angelic beings.

The only way a fallen angel can even have remotely the semblance of the act is when they physically possess a human being or an animal, and even then they have no seed(sperm) that will produce offspring.

I realize that many hold that Genesis 6 indicates a sexual relationship between fallen angels and humans. However, I believe that this is a union between the seed of Cain's line and Seth's line. This is why only Noah whose personal line back to Seth remained pure, was spared from the flood. Nowhere else in Scripture does it indicate people having sexual relations with Satan or fallen angels. The Virgin birth was just that. A chaste virgin gave birth to the Son of God.

Why must the sin at the fall be sexual in nature? When Adam and Eve were in the garden they were perfect. They were clothed with the glory of God Himself. When they fell the glory departed. It was after the glory departed that they knew they were naked. Without the glory of God bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ we all stand naked and ashamed before God. We stand exposed in our sin.

[Rev Moon jr]

To be perfect is to be one in heart with God. Perfect people can never fall. Hence, Adam and Eve were not perfect when they fell.

Angels are male. According to Rev. Moon, female angels were to be created after the perfection of Adam and Eve.
Rev. Moon is in constant communication with God, which by the way, is a normal state of being. It’s been my experience to believe what he says. Had Christians actually believed in Jesus and absolutely obeyed and practiced his words, many people today would be in constant communication with their Father God.

Angels can indeed have sexual relations with humans. Angels are spiritual beings and people are both physical and spiritual. Although Eve and the archangel united in actual fornication by means of Eve’s spirit body and the archangel’s spirit body, no children can actually be born of a relationship between a human being and an angel. Nonetheless, Eve inherited satanic “love”, so when Eve and Adam had their relationship, which could produce children, their relationships were motivated by satanic “love”, and their children were born of that “love”. Thus, all people are the “children” of satan. This is the origin of original sin and the reason we need to be born again into God’s lineage.
Jesus says in John 8:44, “You are of your father the devil…”

Matt. 3:7 and Matt. 23:33, respectively, John the Baptist and Jesus called the people a “brood of vipers”—in other words, the offspring of satan. Thus we can understand that fallen man belongs to satan’s lineage, not God’s.


Pastor Carl*** Jesus said when questioned by the Pharisees: "At the resurrection they(people) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels." Sexual union will not occur for believers in heaven and neither have or does it occur within the species of angelic beings.

Why did Jesus say this? According to God’s principles, people were to be given in marriage only after they had perfected themselves. [ God wouldn’t want imperfect people multiplying, would He?] Jesus came to establish the original standard by which men and women can receive God’s permission to marry. Had the “chosen people” received Jesus as the Messiah, he himself would have established the first true God-centered family, thus opening the way for all to establish true families. Due to Jesus’ rejection, he could not take a true bride and thus neither could anyone else.
At some point the original standard will be restored when the first true family is established. God’s original plan is easy to understand. God placed a naked man and a naked woman in the garden [along with their nanny, Lucifer], gave them His Word to obey [a responsibility] and Blessed them to become "“fruitful"”[mature, perfect],
“multiply” [ establish a family],
and to have dominion over the creation [including the angels].

Then God rested! There it is!

It’s a natural process. While Adam and Eve were in their growth period, God does not interfere with their responsibility, “Do Not Eat”. [don’t have sex without permission].
Eve ate the “fruit” with Lucifer and passed it to Adam, who ate. Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness, covered their sexual parts and were kicked out of the garden, unable to become true trees of life.
[ People are still eating the fruit, which carries spiritual death]

This is why Rev. Moon is again touring America with hundreds of ministers, to promote purity before marriage and fidelity within marriage, true parentism, true families and one world under God.

SMM
The Lord comes to clean the lineage. All human beings have Satan's blood - false lineage. Messiah comes as a doctor with all skills needed to change lineage and engraft to the True Olive Tree.

Satan is like a prostitute. Sometimes we also have a mind [urge] to sleep with a prostitute and think about what kind of joy we can get from this.

Unless we can overcome our sexual desire, we cannot connect to God. By man's internal power alone, he cannot do it. He needs special help from God. Even if he tries one thousand times, he cannot do it.

The flesh is the base of Satan.

The most fearful enemy of the world is lineage - the sexual organ, if you misuse it. We should have confidence that we have nothing to do with Fallen Adam and Eve or their lineage and that we have been born anew.

We have to control the sexual organ.

[carma]

Angels are male. According to Rev. Moon, female angels were to be created after the perfection of Adam and Eve.
Rev. Moon is in constant communication with God, which by the way, is a normal state of being. It’s been my experience to believe what he says. Had Christians actually believed in Jesus and absolutely obeyed and practiced his words, many people today would be in constant communication with their Father God.

Well I'm in constant communication with God also, and God told me that Rev Moon ain't got it right.


Pastor Carl,

I had no idea the moonies had parts of Gnosticism in their beliefs, "the flesh is bad". Is that a normal belief for the moonies?

[originalblindfaith]

And STILL no scripture to back up the wacked-out theory.

[Rev Moon jr]

God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh. I'm very sorry for some Christians who are limited to only a few scriptures given to a people of 2,000 years ago. Anything God does or says will be rejected by them. Such people killed the prophets and crucified Jesus. They will try to discredit anyone God sends to raise them out of darkness.
Such people have no respect for others.

[carma]

God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh. I'm very sorry for some Christians who are limited to only a few scriptures given to a people of 2,000 years ago. Anything God does or says will be rejected by them. Such people killed the prophets and crucified Jesus. They will try to discredit anyone God sends to raise them out of darkness.
Such people have no respect for others.

No RMjr, we take God at HIS word and He said that Christ did the whole job, He completed it.

You choose to listen to a false prophet and you also choose to not answer any of the questions that are put to you.

Like one I asked you somewhere.

Care to show me where Jesus was found guilty?

[Rev Moon jr]

Jesus wasn't crucified because he was judged innocent!

[carma]

Jesus was crucified to pay for sin.

Jesus was crucified because it was a Feast and the people were allowed to have one prisoner released and they did not choose Jesus.

Wanna show me where He was found guilty? Does the statement, "I find no guilt in this man, I wash my hands of this" ring a bell????

[momule]

....I still weep for you and followers, who can only speak in part truths.....since you are or seem to be
(IMHO) thinking in legal ways, perhaps you should read this:
www.shroud.com/bucklin2.htm (http://www.shroud.com/bucklin2.htm)

I know your mind will not be changed, but if/when Christ can touch your heart in HIS proper response,
maybe you can see the light, maybe you have already seen and read this?

>>>>>>>>>>>†††<<<<<<<<<<<


janet k.

shortened the >< janet to fix the thread - Carma

[Rev Moon jr]

Show me where Jesus said anything about dying to pay for sins. This is someone else's teaching.

[carma]

Rev Moon, the Bible is God's Holy Word.

If you want to pick and choose what is the word of God from scripture, then that explains much why you follow some man and not God.

Tell us what is the word of God and what is not, in scripture.

[momule]

.....so sorry that this i gave you was someone elses teachings.. I didn't consider it a teaching but a
well researched paper on the triall and death of CHRIST.( with truth of scripture as a guide)

AND a not guilty of CHRIST on the cross......you brought it up!

so what is truth? what is relevant? to you and your followers.......for if you cannot confess this belief
of CHRIST with your mouth, it is a false teaching.........may GOD have mercy on your soul.

>>>>>>>>>>†††<<<<<<<<<<<<

[carma]

Rev Moon, jr. Scripture says that Jesus died for the sins of man.

Do you believe that scripture is the inerrant Word of God?

[Pastor Carl]

Rev. Moon,

Your answer to my statements that angelic beings are asexual therefore incapable of sexual relationships with humans was interesting in the least.

Great flowery words that sound spiritual and your answer came, according to you, from The Rev. Moon. Yet you or Rev. Moon never used any Scripture to back it up. Not one word. Your quick to answer some Scriptures with more words but never use scripture to back them up. Jesus wasn't referring to the scribes, priests and pharasees as Satan being their physical father, but rather a spiritual father, the same as believers have God as their Father. Being born into sin does make people spiritual sons and daughters of Satan until the blood of Christ cleanses us and when we receive Him as Lord and Saviour, Scripture tells us that we are adopted into the family of God. Neither is a process of sexual relations. We are "born of the Spirit", not as the result of a sexual relationship with the Father.

[Rev Moon jr]

Jesus did not say anything about dying for people’s sins. Jesus is the source for the NT. If Jesus didn’t teach it, why do Christians? Why did Jesus’ followers? Because that’s what THEY came to believe. Read Jesus’ words yourself and make up your own mind.
Jesus himself said why he must be “lifted up” in John 3:14 Num.21:4-9
I chose to follow Jesus and not John or anyone else, unless what they teach follows God’s Divine Principles. John does not always follow God’s Divine Principles.
Israel fell into faithlessness. Can we agree on that? God did not raise up a “chosen people” for thousands of years for them to be faithless when He sent His Son, Jesus to them. Jesus was “lifted up” for the reason he gave. To restore faith! Just as Moses “lifted up” the serpent in the wilderness when the Israelites AGAIN fell into faithlessness.

Had the early Christians actually believed in and practiced what Jesus taught and showed through his life, they would have lived up to the scriptures given to the people of 2,000 years ago and God could give more. No one has yet to live up to the standard of the OT, let alone the NT. That is until now! One true man is standing alone and lifting humankind out of darkness.

The OT is like the light of a candle.
The NT is like the light of a light bulb.
God’s Divine Principle is like the light of the sun.

Same truth but different levels of expression. It's like school!
The OT is not the absolute truth. Christians know this. What some Christians have a very hard time understanding is that the NT is not the absolute truth.
God's absolute truth are the very Principles that God Himself lives by and by which He created the universe.

All the details of history are being revealed. Now we can know clearly who God is, how God created and why God created. We can now know the details of the “fall” of man and the historical process God has been using to restore God’s ideal. We can now know how God manipulated the blood lineage to give birth to the Messiah.
We are living in a time when all the Biblical personages can tell their own story. The real truth! Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist and even Jesus, all are revealing their personal testimonies. Most Christians never thought a time would come when this would be possible. Now is the time! All the truth will be known!
Christians that are fixated on the words given through Jesus 2,000 years ago, well, that’s all God can give them or that they can receive from God. Once Christians actually start “living” up to those words, they will realize that there is a lot more God has to say. In the mean time they judge others from their own limited viewpoint and from a standard they are not even living up to. What is God to do with such people?

[momule]

since Moon knows, better than GOD what "HE can do with such people"


scripture pertaining to this doctrine of yours in GODS holy word, without a "twisting" of words
would be most helpful.....If that be possible.

your ability and those of moon's followers to preach false doctrine,
according to our bible is most disturbing.

Your belief that Christ is not the son(because GOD wouldn't sacrifice HIS own)

that there is no ressurection(when JESUS plainly said, I can lay down my life and take it up again)

that there is no virgin birth(if so there is no HOLY SPIRIT)

and you still cannot confess with your mouth that CHRIST is who HE says HE is(GOD in the flesh)

your doctrine is false, mine is not and I have nothing more to say.........

[Rev Moon jr]

The "fall of man" was due to false, self-centered love. It was not pride, disobedience or anything else. Because the "fall' was a love problen, only true unselfish,
God-centered love can solve the problem.
Belief is Jesus does not "save" anyone. Jesus never taught this! Belief in Jesus causes a person to live for the sake of God and others, which is the bases of true love. People are restored by fulfilling such a responsibility. Jesus cannot make a person love God and others, that's their own responsibility. [ability to respond]
Adam and Eve centered their love on themselves, so Jesus taught to center love on God. This is restoration of the "fall"! This is why by living according to Jesus' two great commandments, a person can be restored as a true love person. "I" am ultimatly responsible, not Jesus. Jesus was given authority by his God to forgive sins and can show the way, but Jesus cannot violate a person's own portion of responsibility. Christians cannot give Jesus their responsibility. A true, mature person, a child of almighty God, takes personal responbility, for everything!
The cause of the human "fall" was false love between Adam and Eve. The solution is true love between a true man and a true woman. This is what God's history of restoration is all about!
God is not sitting on the throne of glory and honor, but
is a God of suffering, grief and lamentation, endeavoring to save His children suffering in hell as a result of the fall.
The last days is the time when God's ideal will be realized. It is the time when the Second Advent will occur. Accordingly, in the last days, there will be no external catastrophic phenomena such as judgment by fire, the destruction of the earth or people levitating
into the air. Instead, it is a time when the history of evil entangled with countless tragedies will be untangled.
Thus in the last days, individual perfection is to be realized, family perfection is to be realized, the perfection of a people, of a nation, of the world and finally, the complete fulfillment of the cosmos is to
be realized.
Now is the time when true God-centered love will be realized on earth. This is God's Will from the very beginning.

[onesheep]

And still no Scripture to back up your opinions. Perhaps you would inform us when you have God's Word to support your opinion. That would be helpful.

[carma]

Sorry RMjr, but I believe God's Word over you or Rev Moon.

[Arkyrich]

God is not sitting on the throne of glory and honor, but is a God of suffering, grief and lamentation, endeavoring to save His children suffering in hell as a result of the fall.

Moon, when souls are in Hell, they're there forever because of their sins, which separated them from God. They had their chance to follow Christ and to live their lives in a manner that would leave them in a state of friendship with God at the moment of their death. They chose not to "remain in Christ," not to "endure unto the end." It was their call to stay faithful to Christ. And in life, they were given limitless opportunity to restore their friendship with God even after sinning, by repentence.

But as loving as God is during our lives, He is also a just God and we receive His justice at the moment of our deaths- eternal life with Him or eternal separation from Him. After He has justly judged us, if we are damned, we are out of His love forever.

[athames]

This was one faith I had not heard of before this. I don't know how anyone could follow this guy. In the beginning, there was one instruction given.. Don't eat of the tree of.. That was it. Fornication wasn't an option as there was no other human for them to recognize the act with. They broke the one commandment, and time and time again people fail to follow those, and the list grew big. Strange doctrine. Don't know how anyone can claim some of the stuff I read in here about Moon.