Judgment

[daveleau]

Hi everybody!

Often times, people claim that others are judging them. It seems that society's view of being told what is right being called "judgmentalism" is or has crept into Christian teachings on being judgmental. What is biblical judgment, as far as the horizontal human to human relationship is involved?

1) Is it telling someone that X action is wrong?

2) Is it making a decision that a person is bad or a good person because of X?

3) Is it correcting someone for stepping off Scripture's defined Narrow Path?

4) Is it saying that a person is saved or unsaved because of x?

What are your thoughts?

God bless you,
Dave

[arunma]

I think these are most important questions, but I don't think there are many easy answers. Regarding your case 1, I certainly don't think that it is wrong to point out unrighteousness or sin. It says about judgment:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? (1 Corinthians 5:2)
And also:
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11)
Regarding number 3, I certainly don't think that it is wrong to correct a person for not acting in step with the Gospel. This is precisely what Paul did to Peter, as is recorded in Scripture:
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?" (Galatians 2:11-14)
Therefore, I argue that it is right and godly to correct a person who is living in sin.

Now on to number 2, the reasonable person would say that we should never say that a person is "good" or "bad" based on his works, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23). But let me propose an extreme example. Would many hesitate to say that David Duke is a bad person? To my knowledge he claims to be a Christian, and yet he is an outspoken racist. What about mass murderers from the history books, such as Hitler and Stalin? Are they not bad people also?

Likewise, most people would say that we should never question a person's salvation. But again, do we not question the salvation of the people I mentioned above? I think anyone would be very surprised to see Hitler in heaven.

I've thought about these issues for quite awhile, and I think that the Bible gives the most wonderful of solutions. It is unfortunate that this passage is only quoted at weddings, and misportrayed as a description of romantic rather than brotherly love, but I think we should apply it to the latter:
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. (1 Corinthians 13:1-8)
All four of the actions you described are sometimes sinful, and sometimes righteous. And it seems to me that love is the litmus test. In my opinion, it is OK even to question a person's salvation. But if I ever did so, I would first ask myself: am I doing this out of genuine concern for the state of this person's soul? Or am I doing it because I do not have any love for him? If the latter, then questioning a person's salvation is very sinful.

Do we have love for our brothers (and unbelievers) who fall into sin? Then let us show it in action. If we question a person's relationship with Christ, then let us do it with the intent of restoring that relationship. Let us not pour out our anger on others, because this is sin. From an impartial reading of the Bible, it seems clear to me that it is very difficult to commit sin when we are acting in love.

[Andyman_1970]

Something else to consider is the whole log and speck thing Jesus talks about............

[Danfrey]

It is interesting. We use labels to discredit things that make us uncomfortable.

It is easier for me to call an admonishment against watching TV as Judgemental than it is for me to really question the benefit/perils of watching it. (I use this because it affects me directly not for anyone else)

It is kind of like Holiness and Legalism. These two items both have to do with following a set of religious guildlines, but it is easier to throw around the Legalism word than question if there is something in scripture that I am neglecting to see.

There are scriptures that teach against judging, and there scriptures that teach admonishment of fellow believers. I don't think any of us would want an active pedofile continuing in our midst without admonishment. The same goes for adulterers. Now, how do we feel about revilers, drunkards, extortioners? We are told that is ok to keep company with those of the world who live in sin, but not those who claim to be a brother and choose to live in sin. I am not talking about a new Christian making mistakes here, I am speaking of a rebellious Christian who even after being confronted on the issue according to Biblical standards refuses to change. (for instance one of the many episodes of a church leader dumping his wife for another woman)

One of the biggest problems in the modern church is our unwillingness to address sin amongst believers. A little leaven, One rotten apple, sin spreads rapidly when left unchecked.

Let me end by saying, I don't believe we have to add rules or standards that are not in scripture. To hold someone accountable to a "standards and practice" that is not addressed in scripture gets right back to the ways of the Pharacees.

[Robinsegg]

1) Is it telling someone that X action is wrong?
2) Is it making a decision that a person is bad or a good person because of X?
3) Is it correcting someone for stepping off Scripture's defined Narrow Path?
4) Is it saying that a person is saved or unsaved because of x?
What are your thoughts?
God bless you,
Dave
First, I'd have to ask if we're talking about believers or unbelievers? There's a different standard, as we are accountable for the knowledge we have. I also think that judgementalism has more to do with judging a person rather than an action. Therefore:
1. Simply telling someone that "x action is wrong" is not being judgemental.
2. Deciding a person is bad or good is judgemental.
3. Correcting someone's behavior is not judgemental.
4. " Saying a person is saved/unsaved because of x" is a more difficult one. We are told to judge according to the fruits (which I believe references the "fruit of the spirit"), but also that we are to be careful about making such determinations, as "man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart". I would be more comfortable following Matt. 18 if I saw a problem and suggesting that they consider and examine themselves to see what they need to do about "x".
IHTH!
Rachel

[Proeliator]

Something else to consider is the whole log and speck thing Jesus talks about............

If we apply that on everything, then how often will someone be rebuked for their sin?

[Robinsegg]

If we apply that on everything, then how often will someone be rebuked for their sin?

Actually, I think the principle is to pray and become clean before God and make sure you're doing this for the right reasons and in the right way before engaging in rebuking a brother.

Rachel

[tamtam92]

I agree with arunma.

Generally i would say that we have to judge what people do, not what they are.

[Joykins]

I think one aspect of judgmentalism to consider is that when we are being judgmental, we are trying to feel good about ourselves by tearing someone else down.

Having to rebuke a brother or a sister who is sinning should not make us feel any better, if anything it should grieve us.

[Chris Norwood]

What I usually find is that people are very willing to pass judgement on those they don't know but are very unwilling to lovingly rebuke those closest to them, which is of course completely backwards.

Unless we have a relationship with someone, we pretty much have no business "correcting" them, mainly because they will not receive it as anything other than us being judgemental. Plus, the main motivation people usually have for doing this is to elevate themselves and make themselves feel important. Now, of course there are some rare exceptions (as in true prophets and the like), but usually it holds true.

For example, at the University I attended (UNC-Chapel Hill, GO HEELS!), there was a person we called the "pit preacher" (because he stood in an area called "the pit" and preached, how original). Anyway, the point of this man's preaching was how evil everybody was for their smoking, drinking, and homosexuality practicing, and that we were all going straight to hell. I never once heard him say the words "love", "faith", or "grace" and he certainly never showed compassion or interest in getting to know any of the "sinners" he was preaching at. Obviously, he was passing judgement on the whole campus instead of genuinely trying to help make people any better.

On the other hand, most of us are too scared to step out in love and gently rebuke our family, friends, or fellow church members because we are afraid they will hold it against us. We keep silent even when we see them running their lives off into the ditch with persistent and even public sin.

The only proper way to "correct" someone is to first totally remove yourself from the equation. If you are doing it out of anger, resentment, or retribution for something done to you (or those you love), you are probably not the one sho should go to the person. Rebuking is all about restoring the relationship between the offending person and those he as wronged (most importantly including God). The only proper motivation for rebuking someone is that we love them enough that we can't sit by and watch them hurt themselves or others with their actions.

[ZiSunka]

Hi everybody!

Often times, people claim that others are judging them. It seems that society's view of being told what is right being called "judgmentalism" is or has crept into Christian teachings on being judgmental. What is biblical judgment, as far as the horizontal human to human relationship is involved?

1) Is it telling someone that X action is wrong?

2) Is it making a decision that a person is bad or a good person because of X?

3) Is it correcting someone for stepping off Scripture's defined Narrow Path?

4) Is it saying that a person is saved or unsaved because of x?

What are your thoughts?

God bless you,
Dave

It's certainly telling someone or implying that someone is unsaved or in jeopardy of losing their salvation.

It is also berating someone from stepping off your own narrow idea of what Scripture says based on one or two verses that you especially like or hold to.

It is also making a decision that someone is good or bad based on your own impression of what is good or bad, or on one or two verses that you especially connect to.

It is also telling someone that action X is wrong based on a few verses of the Bible without context and a thorough understanding of what the whole Bible says on the matter.

For instance, if I were to say to someone, "I don't like you because you don't live the way I want you to live," that is not judging, that's preference.

If I were to say, "You are going to hell because you don't live the way I want you to," that is judging.

If you posted that you didn't think a saved person could do X, then that is judging.

If you posted that no Christian would ever think/do/feel that way, that is judging.

If you posted that anyone who thinks/does/feels that way is jeopardizing their soul or that they are in danger of losing their salvation, that is judging.

[ZiSunka]

I agree with arunma.

Generally i would say that we have to judge what people do, not what they are.

Or how they feel. If a person says they feel a certain way, that has to be respected. We can't go around telling a person that because they have a certain feeling for or against, happy or sad, loving or unloving, that's just the way they feel. We shouldn't condemn someone based on that. If a feeling turns into sinful behavior, then we can correct that person, but not every feeling is sinful in and of itself.

[JPPT1974]

Or how they feel. If a person says they feel a certain way, that has to be respected. We can't go around telling a person that because they have a certain feeling for or against, happy or sad, loving or unloving, that's just the way they feel. We shouldn't condemn someone based on that. If a feeling turns into sinful behavior, then we can correct that person, but not every feeling is sinful in and of itself.

We need to leave the judging to the one that judges
And put aside our differences
Working together for the sake of people.

[daveleau]

Great posts! I think the word "judgmental" is thrown around way too often. I think Joykins made a very very good point that it is the state of one's heart in rebuking. If someone is doing it to tear down or because of some internal issue, then they are not doing it for the right reasons. If someone sees something wrong, then they need to go to Scripture and discuss all of Scripture, while not holding onto one or two verses. Ignoring Scripture while holding onto others when there is apparent contradiction, is not fruitful. Here, Lambslove hit the nail on the head.

I also agree wholeheartedly with the other posts. Judgment is not rebuking, but is saying "you're going to hell for that" or "you are a bad person." Telling someone they are wrong because of X is not judgment assuming your heart is right, as Joykins put forth.

Judgment should be for the sinless...for the Judge.

It gets me when you walk into a situation and say "x is wrong because of y" and you are accused of being judgmental when no mention of a person's overall character or their salvation is discussed, and when you have the best intentions (not trying to tear down). This is such a prevelant thing in society today. Anytime you correct some, they pull out the "you're being so judgmental" card. This has had huge ramifications on Christianity, because the understanding of the word has changed so much. Anytime a word of rebuke is uttered, a person is labeled as judgmental. Christians do this as well as non-Christians, but this appears to me to be a backlash against doing what is right...a societal trait.

Great discussion! Thanks!!!

[ZiSunka]

I think the problem isn't because you say, "x is wrong because of y," it's when you say "x is wrong because of y" even while people are urging you to consider "a", "b" and "c" before you close your mind to a subject.

If you decide x is wrong on the basis of y only, and refuse to look at a, b and c before deciding x is wrong, then condemn your brethren because of it, then that is judgment.

[JPPT1974]

I don't think it is our right to judge
It is really the Lord's place
Because we shouldn't question His judgement
When we judge, we question God's judgement

[ZiSunka]

I don't think it is our right to judge
It is really the Lord's place
Because we shouldn't question His judgement
When we judge, we question God's judgement

Absolutely. God alone is qualified to judge.

When we judge, we are inviting others to judge us.

[daveleau]

I think the problem isn't because you say, "x is wrong because of y," it's when you say "x is wrong because of y" even while people are urging you to consider "a", "b" and "c" before you close your mind to a subject.

If you decide x is wrong on the basis of y only, and refuse to look at a, b and c before deciding x is wrong, then condemn your brethren because of it, then that is judgment.


Exactly. A,B,C and Y all have to be looked at, and their relationships understood to be able to arrive at a decision about X. All Scripture, not just some, and if they appear to contradict, they have to be studied for the resolution, because there is no contradiction in Scripture.

[Danfrey]

I think the problem isn't because you say, "x is wrong because of y," it's when you say "x is wrong because of y" even while people are urging you to consider "a", "b" and "c" before you close your mind to a subject.

If you decide x is wrong on the basis of y only, and refuse to look at a, b and c before deciding x is wrong, then condemn your brethren because of it, then that is judgment.

If "y" is the word of God, "a", "b", and "c" are irrelevant.

[JPPT1974]

Again I feel bad when I judge
Not knowing at times of course
We should give it to the Judge of all judges
Who is really in charge!

[Flynmonkie]

When I think about this, a couple of things I try to keep in mind are humility and two words, Discretion and Discernment.

We are taught to be wise as the serpent -- harmless as doves. But we are also shown there is a time, a place and a way to say things. (For everything there is a season) This is where in my mind discretion and discernment comes in. Only after trying and testing everything against scripture – proving all things.

Normally, in every day life, the bible instructs us to go to our brother and sister if we hold issue with them, in private. We are taught if they don’t listen, then bring two others. I think this to be very interesting, because those two people we go to discuss this matter with are more important than we realize. Either they are going to show us we might be wrong, or they are going to help explain the situation to the person, where it seems not so personal. Sometimes, I have seen this tactic misused, for instance, people that hold to legalisms “ganging up” on another. (I came from an atmosphere of shunning) This is not Gods way. It is very important to choose those two people wisely, humbly placing yourself before God. Scouring scripture in humility to make sure you are correctly judging (not the person’s heart but the situation and actions) and how God wishes to use you.

There are many numerous steps we are taught in making judgment on situations with others. Number one rule is that we can never know or understand another’s heart condition. That is Gods responsibility. Number two rule, love one another Number three rule – get that fat log out of your own eye. The most important thing to God is salvation. To me this means do this with humility, not with pride. Number four, IF at all possible do your best to get along with others, the Bible teaches us that sometimes this IS NOT possible but goes on to say – as much lies within you. But what is supposed to lie within us? Christ! That is where shaking the dust off your feet might come in.
Number five rule -- Love your enemies.

There ARE times to speak up, I don’t think they are necessarily on matters of no consequence to salvation or fellowship, and example goes a long way. IMHCO

[ZiSunka]

I find the people who harp the loudest about not being judgmental are usually the most judgmental people of all. I think that's why it's a hot-button issue for them. They are afraid to face who they really are, confess to God what they really do, and grow in the grace and love of God.

People who aren't judgmental don't even bring the subject up. They just live their lives without ever even worrying about judging or correcting others on every little thing.

[Danfrey]

(I came from an atmosphere of shunning) This is not Gods way.

I have a question Flyn. Do you mean the harsh spirit it is handled with in many circles, or as a practice in general? I have met many who are ready to throw it out as a practice all together because it has been abused in many circles.

For instance, what do we do with the known adulterer in church who continues to see his mistress?

Can you tell this is another one of my interests;)

[Flynmonkie]

I have a question Flyn. Do you mean the harsh spirit it is handled with in many circles, or as a practice in general? I have met many who are ready to throw it out as a practice all together because it has been abused in many circles.

For instance, what do we do with the known adulterer in church who continues to see his mistress?

Can you tell this is another one of my interests;)
It quickly became mine to after coming up in a very legalistic, judgmental environment. OF course the harsh spirit, but also I think in general it should not be practiced. Each situation could be different; I can only draw from my own experience here.

For me, I think generally we should be so heavenly minded that we are wise, but harmless as the scripture teaches us. I think Paul warns us in this situation to be careful when helping our brothers, lest we fall into the same sin. I think to myself the times I have been caught in a sinful trap one time or another, and actually those whom I have gleaned the most from were the non-judgmental Christians that let me work through what I had been dealing with, even when they did not agree, and stood beside me no matter. Later those same people have been a pillar to earthly example (one has passed on and the other is still here). They reminded me of Christ, who lovingly went to that woman at the well and told her that he knew her history but she is still welcome. She wasn’t repentant when he said these things to her she became that way. I think that is why she was so befuddled. It brings to mind the Apostle Paul’s history. I sometimes wonder, if during the time he advocated Christian massacre, if his sin had been met with the “God Hates” speeches, or deemed a lost cause, where he would be? What would we think of Him and how would we treat him? Instead we see him as one of Gods greatest disciples! Why? He had been convinced of Gods love and provision in times of trouble and need. Not condemnation of his sin. With the realization of Gods unconditional love, came the understanding of the struggle we all have with sin.

I am a Christian that continually thinks of the price Christ paid for my life, my sin. How He picks me up, brushes me off, hugs me and sends me back in the right direction every day, even when I have made and continue to make mistakes, allowing the opportunity to improve and grow. Perfection will not be attained in this lifetime. All sin is created equal in the eyes of God; God hates sin, not the sinner. However Solomon does share with us seven sins God does hate. Ironically, amongst those seven abominations are also proud looks, a heart that devises wicked plans, and feet that run rapidly to evil. I wonder if these Christians have assessed their own actions before considering those of others? Christ’s last words as He hung on the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” What about those that are obviously misinformed? Or have not grown to a level of Christian maturity yet? Would their sin not be innocent if they knew not? We knew not, sometimes I think it seems so easy for Christians to forget this.

It goes back to how much real faith we place in God and the Holy Spirit. Are we saying what Christ taught about our sharing the gospel is not enough, through faith, prayer, love, Christ-Like example, and fellowship? Is condemning the world for their sin really the best way to deliver Christ’s message in times like this?

First of all I pray. There are situations where Satan gets a hold of ones mind and literally has a heyday. I don’ think there is one solid answer to define it for me generally. Personally, It is none of my business; at least this is my take on the idea. Our role here is to uplift not to condemn. Correction and guidance is one thing -- as mentioned earlier --with discretion and discernment, but shunning is quite different. To me condemnation is the role of the Holy Spirit and I feel there are lines drawn for us in varying situations how to handle this. But first and foremost nothing we can do or say will make a difference. But it is hard to say that when we know the Holy Spirit works through us. So it is a delicate balancing as with everything else we are taught. With prayer and searching God for the answers in our particular situation.

Now, if I had a close friend in this situation I would tell them I believe it is wrong. But it is not my business it is their life. They know the rules. I cannot force them to stop doing this by peer pressure, any more than stopping them from speeding or other things? What good will this do? But cause them to go "find" others this IS acceptable to. I don't want to see that. No telling how something like this could snowball and spiral downward because of how we act and react as Christians. My thoughts are posted above about those whom have harmed you. Otherwise I wouldn't discuss it with them. I would just have to handle it as the situation arises.

I know this is probably not a popular answer; it is how I feel I should handle it. Let God deal with something I could not truly have a clue about. This goes back to my aversion to organized religion, bureaucracy within the church, to which I still have yet to figure out. I believe we all have the capabilities within us to lead and to follow each other when the time arises. By turning a brother or sister out of the fold, to me could be like condemning them to death. Does this make sense to you? It is a whopping large topic for me to define I guess.:sigh:

[Danfrey]

I can see much merit in what you have to say. This topic interests me because it has been all but abandoned amongst many Anabaptists. I have several theories on why but that is another thread. I do believe there is a point when we have to apply 1 Cor 5. I think a key to this is restoration. The reason for the teaching was not to hurt anyone, but to help the unrepentant sinner see the error.

I have been in a variety of Mennonite enviorments from those who apply the ban for not holding to Church rules to those who refuse to even discuss the teaching in scripture. I agree that wrongly applied this scripture can be very harmful. But so can any scripture wrongly applied. I think it is important that we don't overcorrect for past mistakes.

If my son were to start using Cocaine, I would demand he stop. If he continued to use it, I would ask him to leave my home. Even when asking him to leave, I would never stop loving him and I would be ready to accept my prodigal back when he was ready to kick the habit. I see it as a matter of boundries. Jesus gave us boundries in scripture and it is up to the church to uphold them. I see a big difference in someone who fails in their walk with God and someone who chooses to live in sin. The second type can destroy a Church body if left unchecked.

Again, let me emphasize. This option is a last resort for someone who has hardenend their heart. If and when it has to be applied it should hurt the church that applies it emotionally like ripping off one of your own limbs, because that is what is happening spiritually.

Let me finish by saying this scripture should never be applied to non-believers. It is clearly taught that it only applies to those already in the body. aka Baptised believers.

[Flynmonkie]

See each situation I think the application would be different. I would hope that the relationship between my son and myself would not ever merit the thought of leaving him out in the world to "fend" for him. But I cannot judge another in these matters. A child is a completely different story, I agree. But when it comes to regulating fellowship, we as those observing the questionable situations should also know our own struggle and recognize others that have not had this experience might not be as understanding about those either -- does that make sense?

Another thing, when you mention that Christians and non Christians are treated differently, do you mean this as a general statement as “us” vs. “them” or are you saying this in certain situations. I tend to view everyone equally and treat him or her equally (sometimes can be hard) But I also tend to be harder on those whom know better. Not when it is not hurting others, even outside of the church, when it hurts the truth of the gospel. (When others are acting out double standards) So in other words, while in church, I have seen members that display a whole lot less Christ Like attitude than the un-churched down the street. One of my other pet peeves I guess, the only thing one has to say is “I am a Christian” and all of a sudden we are disarmed. I gauge the situation/person in front of me at the time. I don’t carry a general rule on how to act (I don’t think).

Note added this scripture: I believe this applies to all I encounter or I feel God has placed before me, not just those in a church building, or those whom claim Christianity..

Galatians 6 1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

[Danfrey]

From what Paul is saying here there are situations that leave us no choice but to put a person out of fellowship. I know that is does not seem loving. I believe to let someone perish spiritually rather than hurt their feelings is not loving. Also, it is not up to my human logic to decide which scriptures to obey. I must accept even those that I don't fully understand. Again, understand that I am not speaking of taking this lightly. I agree it has been used to enforce non-biblical church standards, which is not the purpose.

1 Corinthians 5
Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28450a)] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28456c)] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.[B]Immorality Must Be Judged


9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28462d)]

[Flynmonkie]

The only experiences I have had with such things is seeing the "leaders" of the church getting away with deceitful actions, and remain leaders, specifically within the SBC I belong. (not in my church so far) I believe their justification is that "because" they are repentant (even though the damages are done) they are allowed to continue. What burns me up are the ones that operate in a very evil fashion and no one says anything. The ones that see it don’t want to rock the boat, or worse those above the persons in leadership are just as bad if not worse. Fearing by saying something it could ruin the fellowship. Feeling like they are abandoning (much to the churchs demise) the church by causing “conflict” and not “getting along”. It goes back to the bureaucracy in the church; I find it no different than the government bureaucracy. The iron law of oligarchy (Sore, sore subject to me) If someone IS cheating on his or her wife or husband, in my experience, I have never had to say anything to them; they disassociate themselves from the church anyway. However, if I see them at the local store, I am very happy to see them and the treatment is no different than anyone. Would I hang around with them, absolutely not? Would I say something that might seem sharp to them about the situation? If the situation called for such an action but always in love. But honestly, I have never found myself in such a situation -- other than those situations that are forced on me via the church itself through leadership.

[Danfrey]

From the sounds of your last post, it sounds like we are getting at the same thing just using different terminology and examples to get there. When you say that you would not hang out with them. That is exactly what I am getting at. I forget that not everyone understands my church situation. We are only two families meeting in the living room of one anothers homes. The application in situation like this is much different than one of 50 families.

[JPPT1974]

Again judging is for the Lord
He is a moral and just Lord
As well as compassionate and understanding
When we judge though, we jump to conclusions
Without looking at the facts
And we need not to do that
As we are sinful and fair game

[ZiSunka]

Exactly. A,B,C and Y all have to be looked at, and their relationships understood to be able to arrive at a decision about X. All Scripture, not just some, and if they appear to contradict, they have to be studied for the resolution, because there is no contradiction in Scripture.

That's right Dave, all of scripture, not just the parts that are sunny and happy or politically correct. And you are right, they cannot contradict. If it appears they contradict, one must study them and find out what they really mean.

There are many scriptures that one could intentionally misunderstand or genuinely misunderstand that appear to contradict. There are many words in the Bible that have more than one meaning. All these things must be evaluated and reconciled to make a full undestanding of what the Bible is trying to say. If you doubt this, just try to figure out why Jesus said to love your enemies, but hate your family.

[Danfrey]

All these things must be evaluated and reconciled to make a full undestanding of what the Bible is trying to say. If you doubt this, just try to figure out why Jesus said to love your enemies, but hate your family.

Interesting observation. I had never thought about that before.

[Chris Norwood]

Another thing, when you mention that Christians and non Christians are treated differently, do you mean this as a general statement as “us” vs. “them” or are you saying this in certain situations. I tend to view everyone equally and treat him or her equally (sometimes can be hard) But I also tend to be harder on those whom know better. Not when it is not hurting others, even outside of the church, when it hurts the truth of the gospel. (When others are acting out double standards) So in other words, while in church, I have seen members that display a whole lot less Christ Like attitude than the un-churched down the street. One of my other pet peeves I guess, the only thing one has to say is “I am a Christian” and all of a sudden we are disarmed. I gauge the situation/person in front of me at the time. I don’t carry a general rule on how to act (I don’t think).I don't mean to put words in Danfrey's mouth, but what I think he's talking about (and also what I believe is true) is that these guidelines in the Bible about rebuking others only apply to other Christians (or at least those who claim to be believers). Check out Matthew 18 as well, as Jesus is saying the same basic thing:

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. -Matthew 18:15-17

There is clearly a command in scripture to call out sin that plagues the lives of believers and churches. Sin, of course, is not healthy for a person, and will eventually bring about pain and difficulty in his life. Sin also hurts the reputation and witness of the church as a whole, so it should not be tolerated. The purpose of rebuking the offending believer is therefore to bring about their repentence and restore them back into proper relationship with God and the church. (As I said before, rebuking our brothers and sisters in Christ should only be an act of love meant for their best interests and the best interests of the whole church.)

Nonbelievers have not yet been reconciled back to God in the first place. So to rebuke their actions without first saving their souls is all backwards. Until the Holy Spirit is in a person's heart, they really have no ability on their own to fully realize their sin and certainly have no power to completely turn from it.

When a person claims to be a Christian, they identify themselves with the morality defined in the Bible. So to rebuke them for sinful (unBiblical) actions is holding them to a standard that they themselves have already accepted. Nonbelievers have not accepted these guidelines yet, so our goal should be to convince them of their need for God (and His moral standard) rather than to judge and rebuke them for things they might not even see as wrong.

[Flynmonkie]

Oh yes, CN, I agree with Danfrey (and your post). I think that my take on this situation is that it resembles Danfreys in the sense that I believe just you and I speaking or Danfrey too, are the church, we are the church. I am part of the church rather than a “church” building. So instead of it being viewed from a grand scale I view it as individual. It starts within us.

The only time I have ever had to deal with those whom are Christians in my life that are not living "biblical" lives, I have urged them to reconsider scripture and pray (I call this fellowship) But there is none of my friends that I have had to deal with "cheating" on their spouse. (I certainly hope I don't have to!)

So yes, I agree with Danfrey, I didn't mean to imply I didn't! I think it was because I "thought out" the situation in a post that made it confusing. Discussing my thoughts on the matter based on what I have experienced.

I just think that the practice is highly misunderstood, at the very least misunderstood.

[Danfrey]

Flyn,

I am encouraged by your openess and honesty. I am also encouraged that we can disagree or at least appear to and talk it through without it becoming a flame up. You set an example for us all to follow. May God bless you on your spiritual journey.:thumbsup: :clap: