Baptists and the Gifts of the Spirit

[Cary.Melvin]

Do Baptists reject that the Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit (prophesy, tongues, healings, etc.) operate in the modern church?

Do you allow people in your congregations to express their charismatic gifts if they have them?

Thanks,

[eldermike]

I don't think we reject the gifts, but we look at them differently than Charismatics. Charismatics have a different view of how/when the Holy Spirit is recieved. This is the basic bottom line difference in the pratice of these gifts.
Baptists hold that the HS is recieved before salvation and is present in the believer at all times. Teaching the Holy Spirit from the baptist way is how this issue should be handled. I have never insisted that a person act a certain baptist way.

[arunma]

Do Baptists reject that the Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit (prophesy, tongues, healings, etc.) operate in the modern church?

Do you allow people in your congregations to express their charismatic gifts if they have them?

Thanks,

My church does believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as prophecy, tongues, and healing. We do not display them during church services, simply for the purpose of promoting orderly worship. I imagine that the Holy Spirit would usually give us these gifts during smaller meetings. And contrary to the image of people wildly convulsing and speaking unintelligably in the sanctuary's aisles, these manifestations would probably be more orderly.

Let us not remember that gifts of the Spirit do not always have a supernatural semblance. Love is listed as spiritual gift. And because man is naturally depraved, I don't think that this is any less supernatural than prophecy or healing. Other gifts such as leadership and teaching are also spiritual gifts (see Romans 12:3-8).

Many Baptists believe that gifts of the spirit are not present today, and that these gifts passed away with the closing of the Biblical canon. It is based on this passage:
For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)
As the argument goes, "the perfect" is the canon, while "the partial" is the set of all spiritual gifts (except, hopefully, for love). I don't personally agree with this view, because it doesn't seem like a proper exegesis from the Scripture. Besides that, there is no definitive point at which the canon was closed. Scripture itself does not mention a closing of the canon, nor does it specify a canon. No ecumenical church council ever closed the canon. On the contrary, the Council of Hippo (in 393 AD, which was not ecumenical) merely confirmed a canon which already existed. But it is still important to be aware of this view among some Baptists.

[ZiSunka]

Baptists believe in the gifts. We don't typically dance around while practicing them, but we do believe in them.

The gift of prophesy is about teaching, not predicting the future or giving a "new" message from God.

The gift of tongues is about speaking in your own language and being understood by people who only speak a different language, and only in very special circumstances (I have known people who have had the ability to speak in true tongues, not just make up a new language or use a "heavenly prayer" language).

The gift of healing isn't for impressing TV audiences or for getting people to make donations, it is the work of the Holy Spirit within a person's body. I have known more than one person who had been miraculously healed.

We may understand them differently, but we do believe in them.

[Flynmonkie]

Double post?!?! What is up lately with these? I have no idea how Iit is happening?

[Flynmonkie]

Baptists hold that the HS is recieved before salvation and is present in the believer at all times.
I never knew this?

In fact, I had been taught that we are not infused with the HS until after repentance? Hmmm... Interesting.:)

[Danfrey]

We do not display them during church services, simply for the purpose of promoting orderly worship.

I find this statement interesting. Do you believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are controlled by the person or by the Holy Spirit? Amongst Pentecostals I got the feeling that there was this idea that one could speak in tongues or prophesy or heal at the will of the person. Almost like a Holy Spirit water spigit. It would seem to me that the gifts are manifest at the will of the Holy Spirit. We don't see much manifestation here, but I hear of amazing things happening in other countries. I have seen both ends of the spectrum; from chaos in church to being in a service that I was afraid to raise my hands during worship for fear of offending.

This issue much like every other issue in scripture requires the balance that can only be found through Christ.

fine print: I grew up in Pentecostal churches, was first baptised in a pentecostal church, rededicated my life to Christ in a Pentecostal church...started reading the Bible for myself and converted to Anabaptist.

[ZiSunka]

I never knew this?

In fact, I had been taught that we are not infused with the HS until after repentance? Hmmm... Interesting.:)

Me, too. I wonder if this is a universal belief or a local belief?

[arunma]

I find this statement interesting. Do you believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are controlled by the person or by the Holy Spirit? Amongst Pentecostals I got the feeling that there was this idea that one could speak in tongues or prophesy or heal at the will of the person. Almost like a Holy Spirit water spigit. It would seem to me that the gifts are manifest at the will of the Holy Spirit. We don't see much manifestation here, but I hear of amazing things happening in other countries. I have seen both ends of the spectrum; from chaos in church to being in a service that I was afraid to raise my hands during worship for fear of offending.

This is a good point. I agree that all gifts of the Holy Spirit are controlled by God, and so it is impossible for the Spirit of God to be resisted. The problem is, the gifts can be easily faked. I imagine that usually, fraud isn't even the intent of the person committing the deceit. How do we discern between the true work of the Spirit, and our own wills? It is difficult. And how tempting it is for a person to stand up during a church service, utter nonsense, and genuinely believe that he is speaking in a tongue.

If we were encouraged to display gifts during worship, then people might feel peer pressure to display a gift, and they will probably mistake their own emotions for the working of the Holy Spirit. So this is why I think it is a good idea to not enocourage the display of gifts during the service. If God wants to work in a person, he will do so regardless of what church rules say.

That said, I do believe that gifts can be displayed during a service. For example, my pastor was once giving a sermon on evangelism among the poorest of the poor in our city. He made a statement to the effect of, "by this, we are not referring to a Bible study among businessmen on the 37th floor of the IDS tower." Now this was intended to be a purely random comment, But after the service, a woman came to him and said that she was involved in a Bible study among businessmen on the 37th floor of the IDS tower. Is that the display of a spiritual gift? I have my doubts (as does my pastor), but it is possible.

[Danfrey]

This is a good point. I agree that all gifts of the Holy Spirit are controlled by God, and so it is impossible for the Spirit of God to be resisted. The problem is, the gifts can be easily faked. I imagine that usually, fraud isn't even the intent of the person committing the deceit. How do we discern between the true work of the Spirit, and our own wills? It is difficult. And how tempting it is for a person to stand up during a church service, utter nonsense, and genuinely believe that he is speaking in a tongue.

If we were encouraged to display gifts during worship, then people might feel peer pressure to display a gift, and they will probably mistake their own emotions for the working of the Holy Spirit. So this is why I think it is a good idea to not enocourage the display of gifts during the service. If God wants to work in a person, he will do so regardless of what church rules say.

That said, I do believe that gifts can be displayed during a service. For example, my pastor was once giving a sermon on evangelism among the poorest of the poor in our city. He made a statement to the effect of, "by this, we are not referring to a Bible study among businessmen on the 37th floor of the IDS tower." Now this was intended to be a purely random comment, But after the service, a woman came to him and said that she was involved in a Bible study among businessmen on the 37th floor of the IDS tower. Is that the display of a spiritual gift? I have my doubts (as does my pastor), but it is possible.
The Lord works in mysterious ways :)

[daveleau]

Do Baptists reject that the Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit (prophesy, tongues, healings, etc.) operate in the modern church?

No. We take the Scriptural view that NO specific gift is required for salvation. We also teach that gifts are manifest in the church. We teach a hierarchy of gifts, all the above as discussed in 1 Cor 12. We teach that tongues are a less important gift than others, as explicitly stated by Paul, and that tongues will be accompanied by an interpreter. The negative view that many people have obtained because of improper use of tongues (the seeking of tongues by some congregations) has caused many to doubt the validity of tongues. But, this is a layperson-level misunderstanding, not a Baptist-theology stance.

Do you allow people in your congregations to express their charismatic gifts if they have them?

Thanks,
YES!!! Again, most in Baptist churches have had it so ingrained through poor teachings by pastors teaching against the Charismatic movement, that this gift has lost much of its use in the Baptist church. The view that overuse is bad or seeking out of a gift is bad should not overshadow the manifestation of the gift, but it has. It is sad.

Many, if not all the other gifts (healing, but not what people tend to think of when they see televangelistic faith healing) are upheld. The only two gifts specifically listed in Eph, Rom and 1 Cor, are seen in Baptist churches I have attended. And, Baptist theology teaches that these are to be at work in the church by those given those gifts from God.

The gift of prophecy, tongues and interpretation of tongues are ones that I have yet to see in a Baptist church. Prophecy is also marred by the negative view of past abuses, and is less likely to be seen until this is corrected. And, of course, God's timing is paramount in prophecy. God may simply not be giving that gift right now to the Church. Only God knows.

I hope this helps! :)

God bless you,
Dave

[Flynmonkie]

Baptists hold that the HS is received before salvation and is present in the believer at all times. Teaching the Holy Spirit from the Baptist way is how this issue should be handled. I have never insisted that a person act a certain baptist way.

Me, too. I wonder if this is a universal belief or a local belief?

This hit me the wrong way and now has been bugging me all day. I believe that this is what he is speaking of unless he is coming from a Calvinistic predestination perspective? (The elect already have the Holy Spirit before repentance?) see highlights..
:scratch:
:wave: Eldermike:help: Could you give a further explanation?


SBC.net
The Baptist Faith and Message (http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)
God the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Savior, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.

Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

[ZiSunka]

The Holy Spirit speaks to us before salvation, otherwise we wouldn't know or care about salvation. But he doesn't dwell in us until we are saved. I think that's where the confusion might be.

[eldermike]

The Holy Spirit speaks to us before salvation, otherwise we wouldn't know or care about salvation. But he doesn't dwell in us until we are saved. I think that's where the confusion might be.

This is correct. I did intentionally write what I wrote. The point is God comes after us and God keeps us. We do have to respond but those that do will be broken, those that do not will be left alone. But it's the work of the HS, not a work of ours. Reference 1 John 5 (from memory 14 - 18 I think).

This is a key difference in our beleifs. This is why we don't think the HS comes down on us after salvation over and over again.

[mlqurgw]

Here is something I wrote a while back in response to questions on another forum.

Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from “ Signs of the Apostles” by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800’s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913. I must question why those gifts were absent, especially in the manner in which they are practiced today, until that time. Was not the Spirit working before that time?
Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.
Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn’t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.
Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.
The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God’s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God’s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.

Ordinary Christians and gifts. After Pentecost every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.
This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bring fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.

Baptism in the Spirit is clearly shown to have taken place on the day of Pentecost.
Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
I do not find anywhere where there is a second work called a baptism in the Spirit. There are instances of fillings accompanied by the manifestations but only one baptism.

Speaking in tongues is only mentioned in Acts and 1Cor. If they were so important I believe they would have been spoken of in the other Epistles. The book of Romans was written after 1Cor. and the only gift repeated is prophesy, no mention of tongues.

The context of 1Cor. 12,13,14 is spiritual things not spiritual gifts. 1Cor. 12:1 does not have the word gift in it, it is another greek word altogether. Chapters 12&13 are concerned with divisions in the body, Some thinking they were higher in the body because of gifts. 14 merely teaches the proper use of tongues as opposed to prophesy in the Corinthian church not that they were to continue after the completed canon of Scripture.

These gifts were for a sign to unbelievers that they were speaking by God, that is , His word. I addressed this already.

As for 1Cor. 13:10 I do not believe that Paul is speaking of the completed canon of Scripture nor do I believe he was speaking of Christ, if he were he would have said Christ I believe. I am not sure what he is speaking of but I do think that it is possible that it is when we are glorified. Neither is he foretelling when the gifts will cease but only that they are temporary.

It seems clear to me that the book of Acts is a narration of the early Church and what happened to teach us how God established His Church in the world. It was not meant to teach doctrine nor should we learn doctrine from it exclusively. It should also be kept in mind that Paul wasn’t commending the Corinthians for their use of gifts but correcting them.

Now we have the complete inscripturated Word of God. The Apostles have all died and there are no more Apostles in the sense of those who were given special gifts and the ability to impart those gifts to men. I do believe it is clear from 1Cor. 13:11 that Paul is teaching that these things were for the establishing of the early Church. Modern day prophets claim to have new revelation from God and this denies that the Scripture are enough. I believe that Peter taught us that the Scriptures are mor to be believed than even our eyes or our experience.
2Pe 1:18 And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.

Also God himself tells us that He has magnified His word even above His name.
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth's sake; for You have magnified Your Word above all Your name.

[Flynmonkie]

This is a key difference in our beliefs. This is why we don't think the HS comes down on us after salvation over and over again.
I had no idea that charismatic believed this.
I agree, I am one that believes the Holy Spirit is revealed to us in scripture as early as Genesis, but promised to us as Christians upon Christ’s death/Resurrection as assurance of guidance. I have just have never heard it explained in this manner :) Thank you!:)

[HumbleMan]

This is a key difference in our beleifs. This is why we don't think the HS comes down on us after salvation over and over again.

I was in the CoG for awhile after being saved, and I don't think this is what they believe.

They believe that the Spirit resides in us from the moment we are saved, and never leaves (unless one loses their salvation, but that's a whole other 38 threads). They believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the HS, where most protestants believe it is when we are saved.

They do believe in the seperation of tongues. There are tongues and interpretations, and then there are prayer tongues, which is between the believer and God.

I have no problem with tongues and interpretation, as I don't with healing, or prophecy as long as it lines up with God's established word. I do have serious misgivings about the unintelligible mutterings (the scripture talks about utterings and groanings which cannot be heard)

[MikeMcK]

Do Baptists reject that the Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit (prophesy, tongues, healings, etc.) operate in the modern church?

Depends on the person, the church, or the denomination.

Each Baptist church is autonomous and is free to make up their own mind concerning these things. This would come under the category of what Paul called "disputable matters", or those things that are not considered essential doctrine or may not be spelled out specifically in scripture.

Some do believe that these gifts exist today, and some believe that they have ceased.

Do you allow people in your congregations to express their charismatic gifts if they have them?

While we are not a charismatic church, per se, we do try to be sensitive to the movement of the Holy Spirit and we do believe that the Holy Spirit does still manifest Himself today in this manner. We have members who are charismatic and who do exercise them for the edification of the church.

The only thing we ask is that it is done in accordance with Biblical guidelines and that propesies be substantiated with scripture.

[eldermike]

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I was in the CoG for awhile after being saved, and I don't think this is what they believe.

They believe that the Spirit resides in us from the moment we are saved, and never leaves (unless one loses their salvation, but that's a whole other 38 threads). They believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the HS, where most protestants believe it is when we are saved.

They do believe in the seperation of tongues. There are tongues and interpretations, and then there are prayer tongues, which is between the believer and God.

I have no problem with tongues and interpretation, as I don't with healing, or prophecy as long as it lines up with God's established word. I do have serious misgivings about the unintelligible mutterings (the scripture talks about utterings and groanings which cannot be heard)

Thanks for the correction:wave:
I know they talk about "a move of the Holy Spirit" in a corporate way, that's perhaps what has me confused.

[HumbleMan]

A move of the HS is considered when the congregation feels empowered and blessed either by hearing the word preached or sometimes during an altar call, when everyone is being prayed over, and everyone is earnestly seeking to feel the HS move in them. Whether this is truly a move of the HS or a self induced emotional high, I don't know. Sometimes I felt what I thought was the HS working, sometimes I went along with the crowd (I can tell the difference now).

[ZiSunka]

This is a key difference in our beleifs. This is why we don't think the HS comes down on us after salvation over and over again.

I agree. He stays with us all the time. We may not be aware of his presence continually, but it is there.

I have had experiences with the Holy Spirit and I have to say that they were most unlike those I have seen in some charismatic meetings. I don't understand why someone connects a person fainting in a hot, airless meeting house after spending an hour dancing with a work of the Holy Spirit, yet this phenomenon is called, "slain in the Spirit."

I have had friends who had experiences with tongues, but it wasn't at all like the phenomenon of standing on chairs in a service screaming gibberish at the top of your lungs, then interpretting what it meant with words that are almost completely unbiblical.

I have seen people who were healed by the Holy Spirit, but none of them had to be pushed backward and screamed at to get the Spirit do heal them. They didn't have to pay money, either.

A lot of what passes for charismatic gifts these days is of questionable value, if not questionable origin.

[eldermike]

Jesus said it would be better for Me to go and for the helper to come. If you must seek out the Holy Spirit then it's the same, nothing has changed. The reason it's better is the HS is always with you. We will all be better off if we respond to the convictions we all have from the Holy Spirit today, than to wait for an "experience" this next Sunday.

[Flynmonkie]

Jesus said it would be better for Me to go and for the helper to come. If you must seek out the Holy Spirit then it's the same, nothing has changed. The reason it's better is the HS is always with you. We will all be better off if we respond to the convictions we all have from the Holy Spirit today, than to wait for an "experience" this next Sunday.
:amen:

[JPPT1974]

Jesus said it would be better for Me to go and for the helper to come. If you must seek out the Holy Spirit then it's the same, nothing has changed. The reason it's better is the HS is always with you. We will all be better off if we respond to the convictions we all have from the Holy Spirit today, than to wait for an "experience" this next Sunday.

Jesus came to serve rather than serve
And Jesus kept His word!