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ZiSunka
26th February 2006, 12:32 AM
Biblical evidence for the idea that God completely loves all people all the time?

tel0004
26th February 2006, 12:46 AM
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us -romans 5:8

ZiSunka
26th February 2006, 12:49 AM
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us -romans 5:8

Does that mean he loves all people all the time, or that he loves people enough to want them to be reconciled to him?

MrJim
26th February 2006, 01:14 AM
Does that mean he loves all people all the time, or that he loves people enough to want them to be reconciled to him?

Through anabaptist teaching love is always the approach-and that isn't anything new. They loved their enemies inspite of who they were-even to the death. Whether God loves or hates is really irrelevant-He's called us to love one another and love our enemies. There's not much of a grey area there.

Danfrey
26th February 2006, 01:39 AM
He's called us to love one another and love our enemies. There's not much of a grey area there.

Amen,

I appreciate your input Menno.

caseyatisu
26th February 2006, 01:42 AM
Their is nothing that we can do that is going to make God love us less or love us more. I think that it is a hard concept for some people but it is awsome when you think about it. He loves us all the time, whether we are down or whether we are up.
Casey

Flynmonkie
26th February 2006, 01:57 AM
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Here are a few references for starters.

I firmly believe God is much like we reconcile our flesh fathers to be, Unconditional love. God hates sin - not the sinner. It is this love that caused an undying reverence towards Him in my life.

No, God is not happy with sin; He hates sin - but confusing hating sin - and the sinner I see as a big problem in sharing the gospel.

We love God because He first loved US - Every single one of us. This does not mean that God is not just to the unregenerate. But it also does not mean He does not still love them and want for them to come to Him

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

arunma
26th February 2006, 03:12 AM
Biblical evidence for the idea that God completely loves all people all the time?

Lambslove, I'm guessing that this is the line of reasoning by which you justify hating Fred Phelps. While I commend that conviction, I'm not sure I am convinced that God does not love all people. St. John 3:16 tells us that God has loved the entire world by giving us his Son. It does not say that he loves the elect (it says this elsewhere), it says that he loves the world. And you're hearing this from a Calvinist! Therefore, I wonder how there is any person in creation whom God could not love.

I'm sure that some people could explain this to me by changing the definitions of love and hatred. But then the answer would lose its meaning, would it not?

Andyman_1970
27th February 2006, 12:19 AM
I think God does love everyone, Jesus says that God makes the rain fall on both the good and the evil people (rain equates God's provision and blessing for a Jew).........It's crazy to wrap your mind around things like God loves people who fly airplanes into buidings, God love axe murderers, God loves people who don't love Him, God loves people who only think He loves them........the list goes on and on and on.

Flynmonkie
27th February 2006, 12:44 AM
It's crazy to wrap your mind around things like God loves people who fly airplanes into buildings, God love axe murderers, God loves people who don't love Him, God loves people who only think He loves them........the list goes on and on and on.
I don't think we can ever truly comprehend it (makes us mad to even think about at times!)- That is why God tells us it is His alone! Work out our own salvation (IOW - mindya - mindyaownbusiness!;) )

mlqurgw
27th February 2006, 12:45 AM
I think God does love everyone, Jesus says that God makes the rain fall on both the good and the evil people (rain equates God's provision and blessing for a Jew).........It's crazy to wrap your mind around things like God loves people who fly airplanes into buidings, God love axe murderers, God loves people who don't love Him, God loves people who only think He loves them........the list goes on and on and on.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John the Baptist doesn't seem to believe the love of God abides on the unbeliever. Notice that it is in the present tense. It does now.

Flynmonkie
27th February 2006, 12:49 AM
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John the Baptist doesn't seem to believe the love of God abides on the unbeliever. Notice that it is in the present tense. It does now.

Yes but God loving all does not mean He is not just to the unregenerate!?!? I think two different things, no?

mlqurgw
27th February 2006, 12:56 AM
The whole idea that God loves all men is both unScriptural and it is part of the reason many do not follow Christ. We grow from small children being told that God loves us. We hear it from preachers and so-called evangelists. God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. We see it on bumper stickers, everywhere we are told that God loves us. The problem is that it is just simple logic that if God loves us He won't send us to Hell. He may send somebody else but He loves me so I don't really need to worry about it. I will get to repenting sometime but not right now because it isn't a pressing issue, God loves me right. It actualy gives people a false hope. It is crying peace when there is no peace. The Scriptures are clear that God hates all workers of iniquity, all those who are not found in Christ. God's love is in Him and all who are in Him are loved of God.

The Gospel is about God loving sinners who trust Christ.

mlqurgw
27th February 2006, 01:02 AM
Yes but God loving all does not mean He is not just to the unregenerate!?!? I think two different things, no?So then His love turns to wrath? When does that happen? And if it does how does that fit with God being immutable? Justice is the condemnation of the sinner in a legal sense wrath is altogether a different thing. We read in ;

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

JPPT1974
27th February 2006, 01:37 AM
God loves us all the time
Everytime no matter how many times we may disappoint Him
As well as we are Christians and can always ask for forgiveness of our sins

Flynmonkie
27th February 2006, 05:22 AM
So then His love turns to wrath? When does that happen? And if it does how does that fit with God being immutable? Justice is the condemnation of the sinner in a legal sense wrath is altogether a different thing. We read in ;


You are correct Gods character is not immutable. It is the perception of Gods character I hold in question here. Key point; GODS wrath! including confusing definitions/variations of judgment. Starting with the verses quoted:

Rev 6:15,16 First I look to see whom this was written and why, following the surrounding context. Here we see the judgment coming down upon those whom choose not our Gods path. But something rather interesting here too, we see the translation “wrath.” This is only used once in the NT is “wrath” attributed to our Lord. Elsewhere it pertains to God.

See Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger (orge {or-gay'}), being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

orge {or-gay'} see BLB (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1141026070-954.html)
[I]v16“Wrath of the Lamb” Devine love spurned and rejected turning to judicial wrath and destruction. I have mentioned before I have not studied Revelation, it has not been something I felt I am spiritually ready to take on, many more pressing things I need to learn. However I can see the concept of a final promised judgment coming to pass. The great day of His wrath – for who shall be able to stand? Absolutely! God is just. God does not lie. If He says it will happen it will. Those that are dead are remembered no more, a total and final separation from God. Burnt up. 2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

However, in our day-to-day lives as Christians, Gods wrath is not our own, strictly reserved for the only one whom has the ability to administer justice. Now I will not argue that there might be a time in a Christian’s life where hard decisions have to be made while standing as judger in this world. I feel certain verses are significant to those Christians whom are in the situation and those alone. Those that have exhausted every sense of God given / Christ taught virtue in dealing with others. For instance, Adolph Hitler, I feel that if I had the opportunity to remove that man from the face of this planet in effect of saving lives, I would. I don’t think I would ever feel completely secure about it. But I believe in certain situations we know God values life, and some protection is needed. (Sometimes adults need parenting.) But this is between the Christian whom is facing this and God. And these types of situations are after much prayer and thoughtfulness. We cannot know ones heart condition or sanctification process. NO MATTER. To me this goes for weak Christians and strong alike. Some beginning believers show signs of not being a Christian, because they have not learned yet, other more seasoned Christians disturb me more than those early-early in their sanctification. With the promise of Beaten with many stripes! The only thing I can do as a Christian is hope that my actions were met with approval or not. I still feel this is not pleasing to God. He clearly states: “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked!!”

Mr. Phelps, I do not know this man and I am very angry at his actions. He is clearly in defiance of everything Christ represented. Do I wish this man to death? No, but my anger is not righteous or self-serving, not only is He hurting the truth of the blood gospel – he is hurting other believers by promoting spiritual warfare in their lives. Something SHOULD be said. But not out of fleshly hate, or righteous indignation – but Godly love. There is a difference. Realizing When someone offends me or hurts me, do I react with hate? I am taught I should not, if be it at all possible. This world tells us “We have to DO something” that is where they are wrong, we don’t have to DO anything – God DOES everything. It is all about having faith in that; faith and trust in a God whom has a plan that does not lie, and can take care of His job all by himself. Our role here as Christians is to uplift and share the gospel. In any way we can. Sanctification is a life long process, not everyone will be at the same level at the same time – IOW we can never know another’s heart condition. Because of this – as I have said before. We are taught to work out our own salvation, and stay away from responsibilities that are Gods alone. But to pin down a general answer for every situation, that I cannot do, nor do I think it is appropriate to do so.

Back to the question “when does Gods wrath happen” I cannot know this for I cannot always know the mind of God on these things. I do believe His wrath can be seen in many ways, consequence of action is the first thing that comes to mind. I do believe that even in the fact that God loves all of mankind, as Christians he shows us that love in more ways than the unbeliever – or a special kind of love, of knowing us. But this does not mean God hates the unregenerate! I also believe that there will be those that not only do not choose God, even after He has chosen them because None of us love God 1 John 4:10 we love God because God first loved us I believe He removes those that are that far gone. (God created everything to be good, for our pleasure – we screwed it up) However, I cannot always tell who those people are. In fact, as Andyman said – even when I was a goner, I can look back and see by the Grace of God blessing that rained on me, He had a plan for me. Look at Paul the murderer of CHRISTIANS!

What I DO know – God takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked – He wishes they would turn from their sin! He loved the WORLD so much He gave His son to wash our sins away. That is enough for me to realize that God wishes something and it might not happen. Is that Gods fault, absolutely not! It is our God given Grace and our fault alone.

This is what is so divine about Gods love, just how unconditional it is. We see this as Christians and want to share this with others that do not know the Love of God. The entire Bible is Gods love story to us, not a book of rules and regulation, but a book of wisdom and teaching to strive to keep running the race. How can we run the race if we are too busy sharing hate? Hate is a dangerous thing. It starts as something little, and before you know it – it takes over and undermines everything good God is doing with you.

mlqurgw
27th February 2006, 01:38 PM
You are correct Gods character is not immutable. It is the perception of Gods character I hold in question here. Key point; GODS wrath! including confusing definitions/variations of judgment. Starting with the verses quoted:

Rev 6:15,16 First I look to see whom this was written and why, following the surrounding context. Here we see the judgment coming down upon those whom choose not our Gods path. But something rather interesting here too, we see the translation “wrath.” This is only used once in the NT is “wrath” attributed to our Lord. Elsewhere it pertains to God.

See Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger (orge {or-gay'}), being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

orge {or-gay'} see BLB (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1141026070-954.html)
[I]v16“Wrath of the Lamb” Devine love spurned and rejected turning to judicial wrath and destruction. I have mentioned before I have not studied Revelation, it has not been something I felt I am spiritually ready to take on, many more pressing things I need to learn. However I can see the concept of a final promised judgment coming to pass. The great day of His wrath – for who shall be able to stand? Absolutely! God is just. God does not lie. If He says it will happen it will. Those that are dead are remembered no more, a total and final separation from God. Burnt up. 2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

However, in our day-to-day lives as Christians, Gods wrath is not our own, strictly reserved for the only one whom has the ability to administer justice. Now I will not argue that there might be a time in a Christian’s life where hard decisions have to be made while standing as judger in this world. I feel certain verses are significant to those Christians whom are in the situation and those alone. Those that have exhausted every sense of God given / Christ taught virtue in dealing with others. For instance, Adolph Hitler, I feel that if I had the opportunity to remove that man from the face of this planet in effect of saving lives, I would. I don’t think I would ever feel completely secure about it. But I believe in certain situations we know God values life, and some protection is needed. (Sometimes adults need parenting.) But this is between the Christian whom is facing this and God. And these types of situations are after much prayer and thoughtfulness. We cannot know ones heart condition or sanctification process. NO MATTER. To me this goes for weak Christians and strong alike. Some beginning believers show signs of not being a Christian, because they have not learned yet, other more seasoned Christians disturb me more than those early-early in their sanctification. With the promise of Beaten with many stripes! The only thing I can do as a Christian is hope that my actions were met with approval or not. I still feel this is not pleasing to God. He clearly states: “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked!!”

Mr. Phelps, I do not know this man and I am very angry at his actions. He is clearly in defiance of everything Christ represented. Do I wish this man to death? No, but my anger is not righteous or self-serving, not only is He hurting the truth of the blood gospel – he is hurting other believers by promoting spiritual warfare in their lives. Something SHOULD be said. But not out of fleshly hate, or righteous indignation – but Godly love. There is a difference. Realizing When someone offends me or hurts me, do I react with hate? I am taught I should not, if be it at all possible. This world tells us “We have to DO something” that is where they are wrong, we don’t have to DO anything – God DOES everything. It is all about having faith in that; faith and trust in a God whom has a plan that does not lie, and can take care of His job all by himself. Our role here as Christians is to uplift and share the gospel. In any way we can. Sanctification is a life long process, not everyone will be at the same level at the same time – IOW we can never know another’s heart condition. Because of this – as I have said before. We are taught to work out our own salvation, and stay away from responsibilities that are Gods alone. But to pin down a general answer for every situation, that I cannot do, nor do I think it is appropriate to do so.

Back to the question “when does Gods wrath happen” I cannot know this for I cannot always know the mind of God on these things. I do believe His wrath can be seen in many ways, consequence of action is the first thing that comes to mind. I do believe that even in the fact that God loves all of mankind, as Christians he shows us that love in more ways than the unbeliever – or a special kind of love, of knowing us. But this does not mean God hates the unregenerate! I also believe that there will be those that not only do not choose God, even after He has chosen them because None of us love God 1 John 4:10 we love God because God first loved us I believe He removes those that are that far gone. (God created everything to be good, for our pleasure – we screwed it up) However, I cannot always tell who those people are. In fact, as Andyman said – even when I was a goner, I can look back and see by the Grace of God blessing that rained on me, He had a plan for me. Look at Paul the murderer of CHRISTIANS!

What I DO know – God takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked – He wishes they would turn from their sin! He loved the WORLD so much He gave His son to wash our sins away. That is enough for me to realize that God wishes something and it might not happen. Is that Gods fault, absolutely not! It is our God given Grace and our fault alone.

This is what is so divine about Gods love, just how unconditional it is. We see this as Christians and want to share this with others that do not know the Love of God. The entire Bible is Gods love story to us, not a book of rules and regulation, but a book of wisdom and teaching to strive to keep running the race. How can we run the race if we are too busy sharing hate? Hate is a dangerous thing. It starts as something little, and before you know it – it takes over and undermines everything good God is doing with you.Please don't misunderstand, I am not advocating hatred I am just trying to show that God's love is for His people, those that are in Christ. Those who are yet in unbelief have no claim on His love. Certainly there are those among them that are His elect that He will draw because he loves them but as long as they remain in rebellion they have no claim on His love.

As far as the passage from Ezek. goes, the word pleasure could correctly be rendered satisfaction. I do not believe God takes malicious pleasure in the death of the wicked but neither do I believe He is greived by it.

Flynmonkie
27th February 2006, 02:12 PM
Please don't misunderstand, I am not advocating hatred I am just trying to show that God's love is for His people, those that are in Christ. Those who are yet in unbelief have no claim on His love. Certainly there are those among them that are His elect that He will draw because he loves them but as long as they remain in rebellion they have no claim on His love.

As far as the passage from Ezek. goes, the word pleasure could correctly be rendered satisfaction. I do not believe God takes malicious pleasure in the death of the wicked but neither do I believe He is grieved by it.
(:wave: Forgive the run-on in my earlier post – very tired from study I have an exam this evening and a paper to turn in. :blush: )
:thumbsup: I agree we have a covenant, a promise kept from our Father as Believers sealed with the blood of His Son. I would also agree that those that do not believe do not share that covenant. Absolutely! Divine Justice IS Devine Justice.

But the question is Does God love all the people all the time - yes that is the point. He loved us all and wanted us to come to him. If He didn’t love us, as sinners, we would have never been given this Grace, don’t you think? An unbeliever has a chance to that Grace also through belief. That is what I believe we, as Christians should be concerned about. I feel God is very clear about dissatisfaction and unhappiness of loosing that one lost sheep. I feel as if we are mixing two different types of Love here?

I see many out there (especially of the Fred Phelps kind) that advocate “God Hates” so much Gods Love is put to rest. I know many whom have told me God wants us to kill, or commit other crimes against His word – citing that it is Pleasing to God for us to do this – Because He hates. I vehemently disagree with this assessment. God never told us to be God like, but taught us Christ Likeness. There are responsibilities that are Gods, and Gods alone.

DavetheProphet
27th February 2006, 02:53 PM
God may be angery at people when they do wrong, but He loves them all the same all the time. Simple yet amazing concept. That's why Christ's love is the ultimate love.

mlqurgw
27th February 2006, 02:55 PM
(:wave: Forgive the run-on in my earlier post – very tired from study I have an exam this evening and a paper to turn in. :blush: )
:thumbsup: I agree we have a covenant, a promise kept from our Father as Believers sealed with the blood of His Son. I would also agree that those that do not believe do not share that covenant. Absolutely! Divine Justice IS Devine Justice. No problem at all. I do understand.

But the question is Does God love all the people all the time - yes that is the point. He loved us all and wanted us to come to him. If He didn’t love us, as sinners, we would have never been given this Grace, don’t you think? An unbeliever has a chance to that Grace also through belief. That is what I believe we, as Christians should be concerned about. I feel God is very clear about dissatisfaction and unhappiness of loosing that one lost sheep. I feel as if we are mixing two different types of Love here?But He doesn't loose any sheep. That is my point. He does, without doubt, love His elect as sinners and by His amazing grace has sent His Son to accomplish salvation for them. Thaey are His sheep. Those whom He has left to their rebellion are not sheep but goats. He seeks and finds His sheep. I believe that the preponderance of Scripture makes it very clear that God loves only His people and those passages that speak of His love must be understood in that light.

I am not sure what you mean by mixing two different types of love. If you are talking about God being longsuffering toward the unregenerate I believe He does so for the sake of His elect. He does make His sun to shine and His rain to fall on the saved and the unsaved but it is not for the sake of His love to the unsaved but for the good of the saved. He said to Israel ( as a type of His elect) in Isa. 43
Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Isa 43:7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.




I see many out there (especially of the Fred Phelps kind) that advocate “God Hates” so much Gods Love is put to rest. I know many whom have told me God wants us to kill, or commit other crimes against His word – citing that it is Pleasing to God for us to do this – Because He hates. I vehemently disagree with this assessment. God never told us to be God like, but taught us Christ Likeness. There are responsibilities that are Gods, and Gods alone.I hope you don't put me in this group. I don't think you do. Yet we must bow to the truth that there are some whom God loves and some whom He hates. This is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. We should not discount truth because some misapply and misuse it.

Angel4Truth
27th February 2006, 03:46 PM
Biblical evidence for the idea that God completely loves all people all the time?

Matthew 5:44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


God would not tell us to do something that He does not and cannot do himself . Love is to seek anothers highest good , we can all do that without having to 'love' that which another person does . Can a parent love a child who willfully and repeatedly disobeys them even when they are in the act of disobedience? Yes .

Love doesnt stop because we dont like what someone DOES . We can still seek someones highest good without liking their choices , and if we can do that , you bet God can do a billion times better.

Its already been given in this thread that while we were yet sinners ,Christ died for us. God sees beyond our sin and desires our greatest good which He knows better than anyone since He is who created us and He can do this in spite of ourselves .

Flynmonkie
27th February 2006, 04:09 PM
No problem at all. I do understand.

But He doesn't loose any sheep. That is my point. He does, without doubt, love His elect as sinners and by His amazing grace has sent His Son to accomplish salvation for them. They are His sheep. Those whom He has left to their rebellion are not sheep but goats. He seeks and finds His sheep. I believe that the preponderance of Scripture makes it very clear that God loves only His people and those passages that speak of His love must be understood in that light.

I am not sure what you mean by mixing two different types of love. If you are talking about God being longsuffering toward the unregenerate I believe He does so for the sake of His elect. He does make His sun to shine and His rain to fall on the saved and the unsaved but it is not for the sake of His love to the unsaved but for the good of the saved. He said to Israel ( as a type of His elect) in Isa. 43
<snip>
I hope you don't put me in this group. I don't think you do. Yet we must bow to the truth that there are some whom God loves and some whom He hates. This is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. We should not discount truth because some misapply and misuse it.
No not at all! I have not held many conversations with you to know your absolute thoughts on the matter. I think this thread stems from topics of other current threads as mentioned earlier, and they remain all encompassing in my mind. If one plans to use this thought to bolster ones own "salvation" or hold gain over another, I feel it is wrong. But if one wishes to explain that God is Just, I have no problems. The dead know not anything…

I think to myself, “isn’t it obvious to everyone what God wants to stress more than anything,--- His Love.” I think it is also important to stress how God hates --All of us were haters of God? What are Gods reactions to those Hates and what are we taught in our reaction? First we see that we are ALL undeserving sinners. God hates sin. Especially seven Solomon speaks of. (Haughtiness is included in the seven sins God specifically hates!) How could God not love ALL and offer Grace? Impossibility! Is it just the elect that have this option, Pre chosen, predestined? Or is it that we all have a choice in the matter? ((turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?) We are taught to love our enemies – wouldn’t someone advocating against Christians be considered an enemy? Why would He teach us this? I don’t think God makes it confusing for Christians. How would we be able to tell those whom are elect or not? Sometimes we can, others we cannot. Look at Paul, if we were to have met him during the time of his Christian massacre – would we have considered him elect? Of course not! Based on this theory we would have told Him God Hates him – what good would that have done him? But what do we consider Paul now?

I have no problems using the term elect for those whom are believers, Christians that have taken up their cross, citing passages that are directly dealing with How God handles those whom hold to salvation, however I do not see the point of telling others “They might not be one of the elect”. We don’t have that right or that ability. Fact is He loved ALL of US Unrighteous sinners so much He offered ALL a way out. We ALL deserve of His wrath -- you, me and everyone else. How does God deal with those he “hates?” Those all deserving of His wrath?? -- He feeds them. He gives them some measure of safety and health. Most importantly, He sincerely urges them to flee His wrath. God does not love us for anything we do – He loves us IN SPITE of who we are- because of who He is. Again by denying this fact is loosing reverence (awe) to the fact of why we are so grateful and humble for this Mercy. We are ALL so unworthy but we have Grace in spite.

JPPT1974
27th February 2006, 10:54 PM
God maybe angry too
But He is also a forgiving and loving God
As well as a God of repentance
Also He loves us and never is a God of grudges at all.