why no outcry from mainstream believers?

[SonOfThunder]

It interests me that some mainstream religions turn a blind eye to some practices. I will give a couple of examples whilst I am careful not to name those religions.

1. One very very large club near where I live goes under the banner of a ******** Club. (a major religion) It is full of poker machine whereby the poor as well as those that can afford it fill them with their money. It serves alcohol even on the Day set aside for worship.

The banner does Not honor God, in fact it serves against everythng The Bible speaks about.

2. A denomination that is also large here in Australia opened a new building recently, it is a sports complex and local church... one supports the other. They also have local injecting rooms for users and support Gay leadership.

3. trading in a place of worship is allowed

These examples I gave are but I few I have observed, it troubles me that these practices have a double standard, and the people attending these churches are complacent about it.

what say you?

I'm sure you can add to this.


Oh!!!! I forgot, in my own church my first Christmas away from home, they had a Christmas tree on the platform next to the pastor with gifts under it.

It bothered me a great deal at the time.

James

[Danfrey]

I understand your concerns about things happening in "Mainstream" Christianity. There is a TV program about to air here with the title of "Eat, Drink, Pray". From the advertisement, it talks about the church replacing the mall. Food, shopping, sports, entertainment, it's all available in some place that claims to be a Church. I think Jesus made it quite clear that he doesn't tolerate doing business in his father's house.

As far as the christmas tree goes, I sympathize with you. It is amazing to me the anger that it invokes when christians are confronted with the reality that Christmas is a pagan holiday. Yes, it has been sugar coated and many have tried to turn it into a celebration of Jesus' birth, but history shows that 300 years of Christians didn't feel it necessary to celebrate it. I believe it was Tertullian who critisized some of the Christians of his time for decorating with Laurel and Lanterns in honor of the Pagan winter soltice celebration. Many will say "can't we redeem something evil for Gos?" I guess each has to answer this question for themselves. I see it kind of like dressing my kids up as angels instead of devils for Halloween. It doesn't make Halloween a christian celebration.

Leonard Ravenhill said "If Jesus came preaching the message that the church is preaching today, he never would have been crucified". According to scripture we are not supposed to conformed to world. Friendship with the world is emnity with God. Let's face it. It is pretty hard to tell the difference between the Church and the World in our time.

Lots of critisism, how about a solution. I think a good place to start is the Sermon on the Mount. How about we read it, live it and teach it. It really is quite simple. Jesus sat down with mainly uneducated people and taught them a simple, Godly way of living.

[Oddsox]

I totally understand your point. We do have to take into consideration what we do because we are how people judge God very often. The thing is criticism is quite easy sometimes...I do not know the situations but maybe some of these things are ways to access the world, like maybe the injection rooms are to provide a safe place to inject with places to deposit dirty needles...if we cannot eradicate a problem, surely we can help stop some of the more serious consequences. Shunning is not always the answer, being open to people as they are and showing them love is what Jesus did, with prostitutes and tax collectors, it's not necessarily condoning the action.

Okay yes I agree that it is difficult to separate pagan and christian practices at Christmas. However, surely we can keep tradition (as it doesn't hurt anyone), like christmas trees, and use them to celebrate Christ's birth. As long as that is what is in our hearts surely it shouldn't be a problem? Mind you this could turn into a huge debate.

I certainly believe that places should be careful not to be drawn into to the world, but we mustn't block ourselves off from it. Thank you for such an excellent question.

[arunma]

In a certain church I recently went to (not my home church; I was away from home on the Lord's Day and visited a local evangelical church for worship), the pastor's sermon happened to be on practices which make the church look bad. He pointed out such things as Pat Robertson's fatwas, and one of the things that you described. You are right that when churches support worldliness and homosexuality, and oppress the poor by taking advantage of their gambling addiction, it certainly does blaspheme the name of Christ. And you're also right to say that we should stand against this.

Perhaps one problem is that most people are ignorant about these practices. Maybe we should be blowing our whistles a little louder ?

[ZiSunka]

I hate to see Christmas trees in a church, too, especially on the dias where it becomes a central feature in the sanctuary where God is supposed to be worshipped.

So many churches are compromising so they can generate the revenue they need to maintain their fancy buildings with the lush carpet and thousand-dollar light fixtures, not to mention the 80-person ministerial staff.

I hate it. I can't imagine what God thinks about it, but I hate it.

[rosemerry]

If you look at holidays from a historical perspective Halloween is the only that comes close without other religions intervening and Thanksgiving.

The puritans celebrated it. All the children went to bed. The adults stood outside dressed as witches stirring cauldrons. This way when the real witches flew by they would see the town was already occupied and leave it alone.

The first Thanksgiving was celebrated the winter that was after the hard winter when I think it was like 1/2 to a 1/3 died. I'm not quite sure but it was alot of them. Thanksgiving was to thank God for getting them through the winter and having a bountiful Harvest.

I don't see a problem with Easter and Christmas as long as you are careful to keep the focus on Christ. So maybe a nativity instead of a tree for christmas. We didn't have anything for decoration this christmas but still exchanged gifts. On Easter, no hunting easter eggs. Focus on the resurrection of Christ.

All this info is off the top of my head so some of it may not be correct. So if you find something wrong feel free to correct it.

As far as helping the world. With the drug addicts instead of providing them with clean needles how about getting them into Narcotics Anonymous. Providing them with clean needles just seems to say it's okay to shoot up as long as your equipment is clean. The gambling is just flat out wrong.

[tulc]

Providing them with clean needles just seems to say it's okay to shoot up as long as your equipment is clean.

Uhh I think the clean needle programs are to fight the spread of AIDS? :scratch:
tulc(thought Gods house was us, not the building we meet in?) :)

[rosemerry]

I understand that. But I don't think it is the church's job to provide clean needles. I think they should provide ways to help people overcome their addictions. There are other entities that provide clean needles.

Providing clean needles is akin to supporting abortion clinics because you don't want girls trying to give themselves abortions using a hanger.

[tulc]

I understand that. But I don't think it is the church's job to provide clean needles. I think they should provide ways to help people overcome their addictions. There are other entities that provide clean needles.

Not all Churches, but some do indeed feel called to this type of ministry. :)
tulc(just a thought)

[tulc]

Providing clean needles is akin to supporting abortion clinics because you don't want girls trying to give themselves abortions using a hanger.

I don't see how they are similar. :scratch: In one you are protecting someone and everyone they come in contact with, in the other you are ending a life. I will say though I don't want teenage girls giving themselves abortions with hangers. :sigh:
tulc(who doesn't think you do either)

[rosemerry]

No I don't want that to happen either. But drugs kill the person using them too. So you are still helping someone die.

Anyway I don't want to turn this into a debate.

[Chris Norwood]

(I wrote this and saw how long it was, so I'm splitting this over a couple of posts.)

Okay, my first response to this thread is that the church in general and far too many individual Christians spend way too much time and effort in criticizing and condemning both other Christians as well as those outside the church. One of the main reasons the church is in decline in "westernized" parts of the world is that the unchurched see us as judgmental and unloving, that all we do is hate people who are different and fight with each other over who is more right. Why would nonbelievers want any part of that?

Remember this: "You think that everyone should agree with your perfect knowledge. While knowledge may make us feel important, it is love that really builds up the church. Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." -1 Corinthians 8:1b-2 (NLT)

Yes, correct doctrine is important. But our love for one another is MORE important.

Now, I really can't comment on most of the specific situations that were brought up here because I don't know all the details. The fact is, however, that I can see the intention for good in all three of the first situations presented. I think that it is important for the church to reach out to people in more culturally relevant ways. Christian nightclubs and coffeeshops are a great way to meet people where they are instead of expecting them to conform to our image and the way we like to "do church". I also agree, however, that poker machines and serving alcohol would probably step over the line from relevance to worldliness.And as for the "injecting rooms" and the homosexual issue, I would say that if done in the right way they could also be Christian ministries. For instance, how can you hope to save a drug addict's soul if he dies of AIDS or hepatitis or some other infection before he can hear the gospel of Jesus Christ? And while you had them on site using the rooms, the fact that you cared enough about them to make such a place available might just open a door to them through which you can offer them some sort of rehab and, more importantly, witness to them.

[Chris Norwood]

(Part 2)

And for the "gay leadership", what kind of support was given? Now, I am in no way saying that the practice of homosexuality is not a sin. But it is no different than smoking, lying, overeating, or any other sin. We still have to convince them that we and our God loves them before they will ever listen to our good news about Jesus. And until they accept Christ into their lives, they will be powerless to resist the sinful urges that plague them. We absolutely should "support" homosexual people with the same love and respect we are supposed to give all people. Now, once again, I don't know the particulars of the situation and perhaps (even probably) this church had stepped over the line and had begun to preach that homosexuality is okay with God, but I am not willing to condemn them on only limited information.

The last thing I want to address is the holiday thing. Yes, many of our holidays had roots in paganism. But the point is that our God is the only real god, and He has the power to overcome and redeem all of the Earth (even our holidays). Did you know that the word "Easter" was the name of a pagan god, that one of his forms was that of a bunny, and that one of his symbols was an egg? And yes, many of the things associated with Christmas also have ties to the winter solstice celebration. My question is this: so what? The bigger threats to Christmas and Easter are commercialism and secularization. But what threat are symbols to non-existent gods that hardly anyone even recognizes anymore? How weak do we think God is?

For an example of how God can "redeem" a holiday, take halloween at my church. It is one of the biggest outreach opportunities we have all year. We have a "trunk-or-treat" event followed by a party, and probably 1/3 of the people who come are non-members. We show love to the community by providing a safe, fun environment for the children to trick-or-treat; we build relationships with the unchurched people around us; and most of all we show them that Christians really can relax and have fun sometimes.

Overall, that would kinda be the main point of my posts here:
Relax… Share God's love.

[tulc]

Relax… Share God's love.

Well said! ;)
tulc(would like to do this also!) :)

[ZiSunka]

I don't see how they are similar. :scratch: In one you are protecting someone and everyone they come in contact with, in the other you are ending a life. I will say though I don't want teenage girls giving themselves abortions with hangers. :sigh:
tulc(who doesn't think you do either)

AIDS and other needle-borne illnesses aren't the only thing that kill drug addicts. Overdoses and accidental deaths still lead the list of causes of death. Giving a drug addict a clean needle is a cop-out and avoids the real issue--getting drug addicts off drugs.

Giving out clean needles isn't humanitarian, it's humanistic. It will never solve the problem.

[Flynmonkie]

Remember this: "You think that everyone should agree with your perfect knowledge. While knowledge may make us feel important, it is love that really builds up the church. Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." -1 Corinthians 8:1b-2 (NLT)

Yes, correct doctrine is important. But our love for one another is MORE important.



:thumbsup:

[mesue]

Because to name the ***** ******** Church and say that their practices are un Christian and to down right call them un Christian are agaginst the rules of this forum.
I often wonder when a particular church holds their Bingo Nights, Monte Carlo nights, Lawn fetes with the beer tents and gambling tents, or their Holy Name Society all nighters in the church bar drinking, playing poker or pool, if Jesus would come back with His whip and start over turning tables?

[eldermike]

I am praying about entering into another church plant. It's easy to stay in a safe place, all the hard work is finished. God has sent the workers and things have become civilized in my current church plant. But that's the problem.

How many empty seats do you have on Sunday? Did you know that new church plants baptize more new Christians in a month than most small traditional churches do in a year? That's a guess, but it's a low guess.

Some of us just are not cut out to be in a civilized and finished house of God. Jesus said "go".

Sin is ugly, but it's sinners that need to hear your preacher, not you.

[Chris Norwood]

Jesus said "go".
Amen!:amen:






Jesus said "go".
Amen!:amen:





(sorry, that was some bad double-posting humor)

[ZiSunka]

I am praying about entering into another church plant. It's easy to stay in a safe place, all the hard work is finished. God has sent the workers and things have become civilized in my current church plant. But that's the problem.

How many empty seats do you have on Sunday? Did you know that new church plants baptize more new Christians in a month than most small traditional churches do in a year? That's a guess, but it's a low guess.

Some of us just are not cut out to be in a civilized and finished house of God. Jesus said "go".

Sin is ugly, but it's sinners that need to hear your preacher, not you.

I believe it. I used to go to a small, rural, conservative church and in three years we had two baptisms, and both of those were children of members. We didn't have a single family or individual join the church during the whole time.

By contrast, the new church plant down the street had over 90 baptisms and 300 new members.

What was the difference?

The new church was welcoming and met people where they were. The old church was stuck in the past and couldn't adapt to the new century. The were doing church the same way they had been doing it since the church was founded in 1872. Young families have very little time together these days, if you want them to come out on sundays, you have to give them a reason. The old church didn't give people a reason.

[Chris Norwood]

I used to go to a small, rural, conservative church and in three years we had two baptisms, and both of those were children of members. We didn't have a single family or individual join the church during the whole time... The old church was stuck in the past and couldn't adapt to the new century.Yep... That's where I live, fighting tooth and nail to help turn my church around before we dive headfirst into oblivion. I'll keep up the fight until God tells me otherwise. It's not easy, but "I can do everything through Him who gives me strength." (Philippians 4:13)

[Flynmonkie]

Ok a bit lost here and before I assume --what are "Church Plants" and all the blank, blank and blankety blanks for?:scratch:

[Chris Norwood]

Ok a bit lost here and before I assume --what are "Church Plants" and all the blank, blank and blankety blanks for?:scratch:Church plants are little green vegetative things that you put in the corner of the sanctuary... ;)

Actually, that's just a term for a new start-up church that is "planted" in a community.

As for the blankety-blanks... I'm drawing a blank.:P




(man I'm lame)

[Flynmonkie]

Well I cannot figure out if the phrase is being used as you would use "puppy mill" IOW "church manufactured to suit" or as you put it, “a planted church” in a community? :scratch:

[ZiSunka]

It's a brand new church, usually started by people splitting off from a larger church or bringing a new denomination to an area. I have friends who are planting a church of the Nazarene with the blessing of their large church of the Nazarene in their area because the church got so big they didn't function as a family anymore. There was danger that they were going to become a megachurch.

I have other friends who go into an unreached area and start mennonite churches. Here in Ohio, there are surprisingly few MC churches, so new ones sometimes get planted. In other states, Kansas for instance, there are a lot of MC churches, but they are far between, so teams are working to create new meetings to fill in the gaps.

Either way, a church plant is a new church in an area that is either growing very fast or not growing at all.

They aren't puppy mills or churches-to-suit. They are created to fill a need. :)

[MrJim]

Church plants are little green vegetative things that you put in the corner of the sanctuary... ;)

Actually, that's just a term for a new start-up church that is "planted" in a community.

As for the blankety-blanks... I'm drawing a blank.:P




(man I'm lame)

Lame...not!^_^

Be patient with Flynmonkie-she just had a birthday...:( it's sad watching her slowly slip away...:sigh:

[Flynmonkie]

Lame...not!^_^

Be patient with Flynmonkie-she just had a birthday...:( it's sad watching her slowly slip away...:sigh:
Menno, could ya’ do me a favor? Hold your hand up in front of your face and flick yourself in the forehead for me!!! :holy: :D

Thanks LL for the explanation! :) - Now what Christian church's title would be blanked out? (I am under the impression they consider themselves Christian by the topic? Otherwise why are we discussing a "major" religion "as if", if it is not Christian in the first place?) Are they masquerading as such? (is this a site black out of the name or did the OPs do this?)

[Joykins]

AIDS and other needle-borne illnesses aren't the only thing that kill drug addicts. Overdoses and accidental deaths still lead the list of causes of death. Giving a drug addict a clean needle is a cop-out and avoids the real issue--getting drug addicts off drugs.

Giving out clean needles isn't humanitarian, it's humanistic. It will never solve the problem.

It helps solve the problem of AIDS transmission. Given all the other problems, it's probably the easiest one to solve cheaply.

Obviously it should be part of a larger strategy to help users overcome their addictions.

Baby steps...

[SonOfThunder]

Jesus did say GO

also The Bible teaches about reaching out to all the world, to show LOVE, compassion, feed the poor etc.
In Fact Jesus had no-where to lay HIS head, HE walked among
the people. He also challenged HIS followers not only to find the lost and the outcast, but to bring them home and back to life. His was a ministr of recovery, and He recovered souls. He gave the lonely and the despised the will to live.

Mathew 25:40 AND THE KING SHALL ANSWER AND SAY UNTO THEM, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU. INASMUCH AS YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHEREN, YE HAVE DONE IIT UNTO ME.

2COR 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2COR 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God

i TOTALLY AGREE WIITH MINISTERING TO THE POOR AND FEEDING THEM AND GIVING THEM SHELTER SPRINKLED WIITH LOTS AND LOTS OF LOVE.

My poiint in this thread is compromiising (sticky i key it seems). Where do we draw the lines? When do we offend God by building a club that does not serve Jesus in spreading the news. or building injecting rooms?

I know our God is exactiin the other way. He knows our hearts and He also knows if we are hypocritical.

MAT 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

MAT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

MAT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

MAT 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus gives us examples of a house of Worshiip. Do we dishonor HIM by mixing our values to draw in a few? or should we JUST

GO to them.


James

[DeaconDean]

It interests me that some mainstream religions turn a blind eye to some practices. I will give a couple of examples whilst I am careful not to name those religions.

1. One very very large club near where I live goes under the banner of a ******** Club. (a major religion) It is full of poker machine whereby the poor as well as those that can afford it fill them with their money. It serves alcohol even on the Day set aside for worship.

The banner does Not honor God, in fact it serves against everythng The Bible speaks about.

2. A denomination that is also large here in Australia opened a new building recently, it is a sports complex and local church... one supports the other. They also have local injecting rooms for users and support Gay leadership.

3. trading in a place of worship is allowed

These examples I gave are but I few I have observed, it troubles me that these practices have a double standard, and the people attending these churches are complacent about it.

what say you?

I'm sure you can add to this.


Oh!!!! I forgot, in my own church my first Christmas away from home, they had a Christmas tree on the platform next to the pastor with gifts under it.

It bothered me a great deal at the time.

James

Lets look at these one at a time:

1. First, you said that it was a Club that uses a religious name in it's banner. That is wrong. But unfortunatily, there are no copyright rules about religious names. How many First Baptist Churches are there? They couldn't have all been "first?" Secondly, there is only one reference to "gambling" in the Bible, and that was when the Roman soldiers gambled for Jesus' robe. Granted we should be happy with whatever our wages are, but unfortunatily gambling has been around almost as long as prostitution. Thirdly, not all people celebrate the "sabbath" on the same day. While most Catholics and some protestants worship on Saturday, some like myself, worship on Sunday. So until the "sabbath" thing is settled, they may not feel as though they are wrong.

2. First, we need to constantly find new and inovative ways of reaching the world for Christ. People who come to play "futbol" can hear the message as well. I see no problem with that. Secondly, "injecting rooms" for addicts is wrong, Any way you cut it it is wrong. The apostle Paul said He could be in the world without being of the world. And that if it took being a Jew to reach the Jews, he would be a Jew. But, local laws say that any use of drugs which involve the use of needles is illegal. (Leastwise here in the U.S.A.) They should be reaching out to them to try and help themselves out of that dark hole they are in, not help them to stay there. A church near my house, offers a Christian approach to AA, NA, SA. It is called "Celebrate Recovery." They offer the same programs as AA, NA, SA, but with a Christian approach. Thirdly, we should reach out to gay people but to support "gay leadership" is wrong. Whether we like it or not, the Bible is very specific about "homosexuality." It is forbidden! The moral and ethical standards for church leaders are set by God and we should not ammend them to accomadate the "gay lifestyle." Just because the world is trending towards "social acceptance" does that mean we should compromise God's word?

3. First, Jesus comdemned trading in His Father's house. See Matt. 21:13 in which by the way, Jesus quotes Jer. 7:11. The Father's house is to be one of worship and praise. Even the vestibule is holy. Isn't it considered part of the sanctuary? When we invite a gospel group to our church for a singing, we allow them to sell their tapes and cd's but it is always on the outside of the church, i.e.: the front porch. Secondly, Christmas trees in the sanctuary should not be allowed. I don't even like a cross in the sanctuary. During our Christmas season, we light one candle for every day of Advent.(?) But that is all. We have a tree in the fellowship hall but no where else.

The bottom line to all your questions is: you can not legislate morality. We in the U.S. tried this in the late 1920's to 1930's. Prohibition it was called. It didn't work then, it won't work now. All that did was lead to what was called "speak easy's" (underground clubs), massive bootlegging and gangsters. Prostitution is often called the worlds oldest profession. Laws have been passed to keep prostitutes out of certain areas, but they eventually find another to go to. They passed laws aimed at the "johns," those people who keep these "ladies" in business. Did it stop it? No it did not. Even having their names published in the local paper to embaress them didn't stop it. You can not legislate morality. The only way to stop this type of activity is for every Christian in the world to get off their butts and protest publicly about such things. Elect good Christian leaders into office. In short, we need to do what the founding father of this country did, put God first and everything else secondary. Thank you for letting me vent this.

[SonOfThunder]

The only way to stop this type of activity is for every Christian in the world to get off their butts and protest publicly about such things. Elect good Christian leaders into office. In short, we need to do what the founding father of this country did, put God first and everything else secondary. Thank you for letting me vent this.

:wave: thankyou for your input in this thread. I come from a reliigion that was and is very strict. It was often used in weekly meetings how the maiinstream churches are following 'flesh' or becomiing like those that do not know God in order to 'win' them. It is indeed a fine line and I agree with you in many areas of your post.

I guess it begins in church meetings first. I am not a member of the church I am attending so therefore cannot vote, but I do know that we have a place to air views and vote about issues concerning the church, and the ministries of the church. It would be wise to show from a Biblical perspective if you are to appose some issues like 'injecting rooms' for instance or leadership and teaching by homosexuals.

When the house iiis in order and not cunfused then the people wiill look at their local leaders in the Community an vote appropriiately there

James

sorry about the stiicky i key.

[DeaconDean]

Thank you for your comments brother. Let give you some scriptres to back my views.

As far as "injecting rooms" is concerned, there are no passages in the Bible, but I can back it up with this:
"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's." -Luke 20:25 While I live in the U.S., my Caesar says it is illegal to do drugs. So until Caesar says it's leagal, I can not do it.

1 Tim. 3:1-13 gives the qualifications for bishops/elders, and deacons, and no where in those qualifications does it say "the husband of one man."

Any form of leadership must conform to these standards. Lev. 18:22 comdemns "man lying with man" as an "abomination." Likewise Rom. 1:27-28 Paul tells us that God will give these "homosexuals" up to reprobate mind. If God will not tolerate them, why would we want someone who clearly practices sin in their life, teaching or preaching in our churches. If they are practing "gays" then where is the repentance we preach? Wouldn't that be the same as me telling you not to commit adultry and then turning around and doing it myself. I would no better than a hypocrite.

[SonOfThunder]

Thank you for your comments brother. Let give you some scriptres to back my views.

As far as "injecting rooms" is concerned, there are no passages in the Bible, but I can back it up with this:
"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's." -Luke 20:25 While I live in the U.S., my Caesar says it is illegal to do drugs. So until Caesar says it's leagal, I can not do it.

1 Tim. 3:1-13 gives the qualifications for bishops/elders, and deacons, and no where in those qualifications does it say "the husband of one man."

Any form of leadership must conform to these standards. Lev. 18:22 comdemns "man lying with man" as an "abomination." Likewise Rom. 1:27-28 Paul tells us that God will give these "homosexuals" up to reprobate mind. If God will not tolerate them, why would we want someone who clearly practices sin in their life, teaching or preaching in our churches. If they are practing "gays" then where is the repentance we preach? Wouldn't that be the same as me telling you not to commit adultry and then turning around and doing it myself. I would no better than a hypocrite.

Yes oh yes, I originally posted this thread because as I came out of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses I faced 'MINSTREAM' churches to chose from. It amazed me when I noticed some of the accepted practices, iit also bothered me that I would find a comfortable place to worship and be taught from. It was a genuine questiion at why mainstream seemingly accepts some of these practices.

Thankyou for backing up what you saiid with The Word of God.

James (with the stiiky iii key)

[Project 86]

The bottom line to all your questions is: you can not legislate morality.

Actually we legistlate morality all the time. If we didn't you could murder your neighbor, have sex with little children and rob banks with little worry that there would be action against you by the goverment.

[ZiSunka]

It helps solve the problem of AIDS transmission. Given all the other problems, it's probably the easiest one to solve cheaply.

Obviously it should be part of a larger strategy to help users overcome their addictions.

Baby steps...

I am totally supportive of stopping the spread of AIDS. But I'm even more supportive of stopping the spread of AIDS by helping people overcome and/or abstain from their addictions, not by giving them clean utensiles to help them practice their addiction.

How much better it would be for a church to create an addiction ministry than to blindly hand out needles to anonymous people, forgetting that it is their souls are the cause of their addiction. The addicts are still going to die from their addiction, but we don't have to feel guilty about not doing anything about their problem. We can feel good about the fact that we did SOMETHING, even if that something was meaningless.

Handing out clean needles is like handing out clean coffins.

[MrJim]

I am totally supportive of stopping the spread of AIDS. But I'm even more supportive of stopping the spread of AIDS by helping people overcome and/or abstain from their addictions, not by giving them clean utensiles to help them practice their addiction.

How much better it would be for a church to create an addiction ministry than to blindly hand out needles to anonymous people, forgetting that it is their souls are the cause of their addiction. The addicts are still going to die from their addiction, but we don't have to feel guilty about not doing anything about their problem. We can feel good about the fact that we did SOMETHING, even if that something was meaningless.

Handing out clean needles is like handing out clean coffins.

Yup!

When I was engaged in the nefarious drug trade I kept some clean needles (or "darts" or "spikes") 'cause guys and gals would know that Joe ******* was just at my house and they'd go through the trash 'cause people put their darts in beer cans to "dispose" of them. I just couldn't bear watching them do it (though my buddy could care less).

Even still, I don't think handing out clean needles (or condoms for that matter) is the answer the church needs to provide.

[JPPT1974]

Needles aren't meant to be cleaned at all
Because they are filthy
And with drugs!

[DeaconDean]

Actually we legistlate morality all the time... have sex with little children

Your right, South Carolina just raised the "legal" marrying age up from 12 to 14 y/o.

If we didn't you could murder your neighbor,

Yep, your right, murder rate here in the U.S. has steadily increased since we legislated murder.

and rob banks with little worry that there would be action against you by the goverment.

Yep your right again. Rob a bank and only get 7 years in prison.

Yep, we legislate morality all the time.

[Chris Norwood]

A few comments...
3. First, Jesus comdemned trading in His Father's house. See Matt. 21:13 in which by the way, Jesus quotes Jer. 7:11.Matthew 21:13 reads, And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer'; but you are making it a robbers' den." (NASB)

Jesus called it a "robbers' den", not merely a marketplace. The thing that made Jesus so indignant was not just that these people were selling things in the temple area, but that they were taking advantage of the pilgrims who had come to worship. They had a racket going, because people ususally were not be able to bring along with them all of the necessary animals for the sacrifices required at the temple. So first, a pilgrim would have to go to the moneychangers to convert their roman coins for Hebrew shekels (because those selling the sacrificial animals would not accept anything else) at a very bad exchange rate. Then, they would face ridiculous price gouging by those selling the animals. Kickbacks and unfairness and most of all a lack of love and respect for their brothers, that was what really ticked off our Lord.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that it's okay for the church to be money-minded and strive to turn a profit or anything, but my understanding of that scripture leads me to think that it's not inherently wrong to sell or trade something in a church building. What's more important is that we treat each other with love in any financial dealing, no matter where it happens. So to link a church with a mall, coffeeshop, or other "place of business" in an attempt to reach out to people is not necessariuly wrong.

The only way to stop this type of activity is for every Christian in the world to get off their butts and protest publicly about such things. Elect good Christian leaders into office. In short, we need to do what the founding father of this country did, put God first and everything else secondary. Thank you for letting me vent this.I agree and I disagree. I think that the only way to stop this kind of activity and change our world is to win people to Christ. Public demonstration and protest tends to bolster the unchurched world's opinion of us that all we do is condemn and point fingers, which hurts our witness. Plus, it distracts us from our real purpose: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20a, NIV).

But I absolutely agree that we all need to use our votes to put Christian leaders into place, and most importantly pray earnestly that God will regain influence in our world.

[DeaconDean]

A few comments...
Matthew 21:13 reads, And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer'; but you are making it a robbers' den." (NASB)

Jesus called it a "robbers' den", not merely a marketplace. The thing that made Jesus so indignant was not just that these people were selling things in the temple area, but that they were taking advantage of the pilgrims who had come to worship. They had a racket going, because people ususally were not be able to bring along with them all of the necessary animals for the sacrifices required at the temple. So first, a pilgrim would have to go to the moneychangers to convert their roman coins for Hebrew shekels (because those selling the sacrificial animals would not accept anything else) at a very bad exchange rate. Then, they would face ridiculous price gouging by those selling the animals. Kickbacks and unfairness and most of all a lack of love and respect for their brothers, that was what really ticked off our Lord.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that it's okay for the church to be money-minded and strive to turn a profit or anything, but my understanding of that scripture leads me to think that it's not inherently wrong to sell or trade something in a church building. What's more important is that we treat each other with love in any financial dealing, no matter where it happens. So to link a church with a mall, coffeeshop, or other "place of business" in an attempt to reach out to people is not necessariuly wrong.

I agree and I disagree. I think that the only way to stop this kind of activity and change our world is to win people to Christ. Public demonstration and protest tends to bolster the unchurched world's opinion of us that all we do is condemn and point fingers, which hurts our witness. Plus, it distracts us from our real purpose: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20a, NIV).

But I absolutely agree that we all need to use our votes to put Christian leaders into place, and most importantly pray earnestly that God will regain influence in our world.

Thanks brother for your comments, but you misrepresent me when you said:

Now, don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that it's okay for the church to be money-minded and strive to turn a profit or anything, but my understanding of that scripture leads me to think that it's not inherently wrong to sell or trade something in a church building. What's more important is that we treat each other with love in any financial dealing, no matter where it happens. So to link a church with a mall, coffeeshop, or other "place of business" in an attempt to reach out to people is not necessariuly wrong.

Read any commentary and you'll get the same message, even the outter courts, which were set aside for the Gentiles was to be kept Holy.
John Gill said in his commentary on Matt. 21:13:
"And said unto them, it is written…
In (Isaiah 56:7 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=isa+56:7)) .
My house shall be called the house of prayer.
These are the, words of God, calling the temple his house, which was built according to the plan he gave; and was the place of his worship, and where he dwelt, and vouchsafed his presence to his people; and signifying, that in time to come, it should be an house of prayer; not for the Jews only, but for the Gentiles also: "for all people", as it is expressed by the prophet, and cited by Mark; and particularly this part of it, in which were the money changers and sellers of doves; for that was the court of the Gentiles, where they were admitted to pray, and perform other parts of worship. These words are rightly applied by Christ to the temple; nor can the Jews themselves deny it; for their own Targum paraphrases it thus, (yvdqm tyb) , "the house of my sanctuary shall be called an house of prayer"; or shall be one; for the meaning is not that it should go by such a name, but should be for such use, and not for buying and selling, and merchandise, to which use the Jews now put it: hence it follows, but ye have made it a den of thieves.
These are the words of Christ, affirming what is complained of in (Jeremiah 7:11 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jer+7:11)) and applying it to the present case, on account of the wicked merchandise, unlawful gain, avarice and extortion, of the priests and other officers of the temple, who had a considerable share in these things; and to whom the temple was, and by them used, as a den is to and by thieves and robbers, where they shelter themselves; for these persons robbed both God and man, and the temple was a sanctuary to them: here they screened themselves, and, under the appearance of religion and devotion, devoured widows' houses, plundered persons of their substance, and were full of extortion and excess."

Notice what he said: "it should be an house of prayer; not for the Jews only, but for the Gentiles also: "for all people", as it is expressed by the prophet, and cited by Mark; and particularly this part of it, in which were the money changers and sellers of doves; for that was the court of the Gentiles, where they were admitted to pray, and perform other parts of worship. These words are rightly applied by Christ to the temple; nor can the Jews themselves deny it; for their own Targum paraphrases it thus, (yvdqm tyb) , "the house of my sanctuary shall be called an house of prayer"; or shall be one; for the meaning is not that it should go by such a name, but should be for such use, and not for buying and selling, and merchandise,"

I did not say it was wrong for churches:

to link a church with a mall, coffeeshop, or other "place of business" in an attempt to reach out to people is not necessariuly wrong.

I said I wouldn't like to be done inside any part of the church, vestibule included.

Matthew Henry says:
"What he said, to justify himself, and to convict them (v. 13); It is written. Note, In the reformation of the church, the eye must be upon the scripture, and that must be adhered to as the rule, the pattern in the mount; and we must go no further than we can justify ourselves with, It is written. Reformation is then right, when corrupted ordinances are reduced to their primitive institution. (1.) He shows, from a scripture prophecy, what the temple should be, and was designed to be; My house shall be called the house of prayer; which is quoted from Isa. 56:7. Note, All the ceremonial institutions were intended to be subservient to moral duties; the house of sacrifices was to be a house of prayer, for that was the substance and soul of all those services; the temple was in a special manner sanctified to be a house of prayer, for it was not only the place of that worship, but the medium of it, so that the prayers made in or toward that house had a particular promise of acceptance (2 Chr. 6:21), as it was a type of Christ; therefore Daniel looked that way in prayer; and in this sense no house or place is now, or can be, a house of prayer, for Christ is our Temple; yet in some sense the appointed places of our religious assemblies may be so called, as places where prayer is wont to be made, Acts 16:13. (2.) He shows, from a scripture reproof, how they had abused the temple, and perverted the intention of it; Ye have made it a den of thieves. This is quoted from Jer. 7:11, Is this house become a den of robbers in your eyes? When dissembled piety is made the cloak and cover of iniquity, it may be said that the house of prayer is become a den of thieves, in which they lurk, and shelter themselves. Markets are too often dens of thieves, so many are the corrupt and cheating practices in buying and selling; but markets in the temple are certainly so, for they rob God of his honour, the worst of thieves, Mal. 3:8. The priests lived, and lived plentifully, upon the altar; but, not content with that, they found other ways and means to squeeze money out of the people; and therefore Christ here calls them thieves, for they exacted that which did not belong to them."

So I'm sorry, but in my opinion, the whole church, vestibule included is holy. Now outside is a different matter.

[53Isaiah]

When I consider the state the church today:

Revelation 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

[Chris Norwood]

So I'm sorry, but in my opinion, the whole church, vestibule included is holy. Now outside is a different matter. I think that we actually believe the same thing, but that we're trying to make different points. I do not think that buying and selling should occur within the actual confines of the church/sanctuary either. But what exactly is counted as "the church"? What about the education wing where Sunday School classes are held? What about the fellowship hall that is in a separate building? What if the sanctuary is included in a larger building that also houses businesses (as in a mall or strip mall)? My take is that as long as people are not being taken advantage of and it is not in a place that distracts those coming to worship and "pray", then it is okay.

[eldermike]

Love of God, love of brother, broken heart for the lost: these attributes God creates in us (His church), they are the profile of a Christian. (1 John, all of it)

The greatest commandment is just like 1 John says it is. If you don't have (from God) these things; a love for God and a love for your brother, a love for His gospel, you're not His. There is no separation of you in duty to love and worship God, to "GO" and get His lost lambs, from His presence within you. It's not your work, not your doing it's your obedience to die to self and let God use you that creates a church, it's you!

The church is you. The holy place is in you. You can't create a holy place. A house of prayer is a praying Christian. A house of worship is a Spirit filled Christian. A holy place is inside you.

Relax, it's not about us.

My 2 cents

[TwinCrier]

Now, if anyone is seriously thinking the church is going to get more holy, over time you haven't read the end of that book you tote to church. The church is rapidly being enveloped by the world. Come quickly Lord Jesus!

[ZiSunka]

When I consider the state the church today:

Revelation 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Amen!

[Jenka]

It's hard though isn't it? Trying to always be on fire..in fact, it can get downright exhusting.
I try to be on fire, and my church is starting a new Bible Study, so I hope that'll help.

Churches become tired, people get tired of trying. Everything we have, stand for, believe in and work against is fought for. Everyday we go into battle, and churches, well, it's just an army going to battle instead of one soldier.
We need to lift eachother up, encourage when others are weak and pray when we think we have nothing left to give.
We need fire and a passion and we can only recieve that through faith.

So let's keep stoking the fire brothers and sisters! :D

~Jenka

[JPPT1974]

Now, if anyone is seriously thinking the church is going to get more holy, over time you haven't read the end of that book you tote to church. The church is rapidly being enveloped by the world. Come quickly Lord Jesus!

Yeah come quickly the Lord Jesus Christ
Because He really needs to come and get us all!

[Chris Norwood]

It's hard though isn't it? Trying to always be on fire..in fact, it can get downright exhusting.
I try to be on fire, and my church is starting a new Bible Study, so I hope that'll help.

Churches become tired, people get tired of trying. Everything we have, stand for, believe in and work against is fought for. Everyday we go into battle, and churches, well, it's just an army going to battle instead of one soldier.
We need to lift eachother up, encourage when others are weak and pray when we think we have nothing left to give.
We need fire and a passion and we can only recieve that through faith.

So let's keep stoking the fire brothers and sisters! :D

~JenkaI so agree. I think the main reason for this Christian "burnout" is that we try to do so much on our own instead of plugging into God for His power. Plus, we get distracted and misled into doing so much "church" work, which are all "good" things to do, instead of waiting for the assignments which are really from God. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out the fool-proof method of doing these things yet (if I did I could write a book and make a mint ;)). Until then, I just keep "working out my salvation" as best as I can and pray for the passion I need to make it work.

[SonOfThunder]

I so agree. I think the main reason for this Christian "burnout" is that we try to do so much on our own instead of plugging into God for His power. Plus, we get distracted and misled into doing so much "church" work, which are all "good" things to do, instead of waiting for the assignments which are really from God. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out the fool-proof method of doing these things yet (if I did I could write a book and make a mint ;)). Until then, I just keep "working out my salvation" as best as I can and pray for the passion I need to make it work.

Interesting point. Within the Jehovah's Witness ORG. it's a fine line between being so busy and 'working' that there is so little time to hear God. Yet it seems it also might be the problem of so many churches. You get busy 'doing' that God needs a loud speaker to get your attention.

We DO HAVE THE WORD already, Jesus went out among the people, he ministered directly. The Bible also leaves us with a clear commission, are you so busy to do that?

We do have the fullness already, we are secure, what is required? just telling others about what we believe. it isn't to convince (NOT OUR JOB) it isn't to obtain an end (NOT OUR JOB) it is just to give others the simple gospel of Jesus Christ and what he represents to us. (GOD does the rest)

HOw many people have you given the simple message to this week?




James


James

[ZiSunka]

It's hard though isn't it? Trying to always be on fire..in fact, it can get downright exhusting.
I try to be on fire, and my church is starting a new Bible Study, so I hope that'll help.

Churches become tired, people get tired of trying. Everything we have, stand for, believe in and work against is fought for. Everyday we go into battle, and churches, well, it's just an army going to battle instead of one soldier.
We need to lift eachother up, encourage when others are weak and pray when we think we have nothing left to give.
We need fire and a passion and we can only recieve that through faith.

So let's keep stoking the fire brothers and sisters! :D

~Jenka

We don't always have to be on fire. We just have to choose between hot and cold.

For instance, I'm roasting turkey thighs right now and they are hot! (180 degrees when they are finished), but they are not on fire.

I like the symbolism of Christ spitting out the lukewarm church, because that is what we would do with lukewarm food. Lukewarm food is spoiled food, full of bacteria that would make you sick. Food has to be kept hot or cold to stay healthy to eat. If you took a bite of food and found it lukewarm, you'd best spit it out or you might get sick (imagine a big mouthful of room-temperature potato salad or fish--yuck! you'd spit that out right away!).

I think the churches that are getting tired are getting that way because they try too hard too much. We try to do too much and be too many things to too many people. If we focus on staying hot--not on fire--and on worshipping the Lord, we won't have to work so very hard at being Christians or at being the church. :)

[Iron Lion]

i hate seeing churches being rented out mid week to yoga schools and martial arts schools.

[eldermike]

The early church was house to house meetings. The early church was not just meetings, it was more about meeting needs.

I personally do not think God in that much intrested in our corporate churches. My take on lamp stands is that you are much more likely to have your corporate one blown out than to keep it lit. We tend to focus inward, on programs for ourselves. We tend to justify overlooking the needs of our communities. Jesus would not do this. He would be with the hurting, the sick, the hungry, not the well dressed well fed good looking group I hang out with on Sunday.

The lamp stand is you. The church is you. The only thing you need to have church meeting is two of you, anywhere, anytime.

[Flynmonkie]

i hate seeing churches being rented out mid week to yoga schools and martial arts schools.
EEEK!

On the same note I think some of these church buildings are the biggest signs of waste!

They practically sit dormant for at least days out of the week, yet the heating and electric bills are still accumulating.

[Chris Norwood]

The early church was house to house meetings. The early church was not just meetings, it was more about meeting needs.

I personally do not think God is that much intrested in our corporate churches. My take on lamp stands is that you are much more likely to have your corporate one blown out than to keep it lit. We tend to focus inward, on programs for ourselves. We tend to justify overlooking the needs of our communities. Jesus would not do this. He would be with the hurting, the sick, the hungry, not the well dressed well fed good looking group I hang out with on Sunday.

The lamp stand is you. The church is you. The only thing you need to have church meeting is two of you, anywhere, anytime.Wow! So true! We still refer to our modern church building as the houses of God, but that is a term that, Biblically, only applied to the Temple. Is a church only a church if it has a building? Of course not; the church is the people. And so we should care far less about expanding, maintaining, and being reverent about our buildings and instead focus on being the church (people) of God and expanding it through sharing the gospel.

[eldermike]

Wow! So true! We still refer to our modern church building as the houses of God, but that is a term that, Biblically, only applied to the Temple. Is a church only a church if it has a building? Of course not; the church is the people. And so we should care far less about expanding, maintaining, and being reverent about our buildings and instead focus on being the church (people) of God and expanding it through sharing the gospel.

Amen:wave:

Jesus on building programs: John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

[ZiSunka]

i hate seeing churches being rented out mid week to yoga schools and martial arts schools.

Amen!

but I wish churches were busier during the week. I hate to see a church that only gets used on sundays.

[ZiSunka]

Amen:wave:

Jesus on building programs: John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Amen!

One of the greatest churches I have ever heard of meets out in the bush under a tree. The Believers don't have a church building or meeting house, and they aren't allowed to have home churches by law. They have no place to hold meetings except outside in a field far far from town. Yet they are the strongest and most pray-dependent people you could ever meet.

[Justin The Baptist]

Amen!

One of the greatest churches I have ever heard of meets out in the bush under a tree. The Believers don't have a church building or meeting house, and they aren't allowed to have home churches by law. They have no place to hold meetings except outside in a field far far from town. Yet they are the strongest and most pray-dependent people you could ever meet.
It is amazing how much these kinds of believers depend on the Lord, in comparision with most Christians (myself included). They depend on the Lord for their every *need*, whereas I only come to the Lord when I want something. Reading this makes me ashamed of myself.

[ZiSunka]

They really do. God shows them more miracles, not because they want him to prove himself like we do, but because they truly have faith in Him.

[JPPT1974]

That is all that we need to do
Put our faith and trust in the Lord our God!

[Justin The Baptist]

That is all that we need to do
Put our faith and trust in the Lord our God!

How much more fulfilling would our lives be if we could place our entire faith and trust into the Lord?

[SonOfThunder]

Amen!

One of the greatest churches I have ever heard of meets out in the bush under a tree. The Believers don't have a church building or meeting house, and they aren't allowed to have home churches by law. They have no place to hold meetings except outside in a field far far from town. Yet they are the strongest and most pray-dependent people you could ever meet.

How many churches struggle with maintaining a building, (rental,utilitites,loans,rates) also the pays of leaders and have nothing left to give the needy? How many churches also support a hierachy? (Vatican comes to mind).

Has the church body strayed from the example of ministry that Jesus Christ Himself had?

James

[ZiSunka]

How many churches struggle with maintaining a building, (rental,utilitites,loans,rates) also the pays of leaders and have nothing left to give the needy? How many churches also support a hierachy? (Vatican comes to mind).

Has the church body strayed from the example of ministry that Jesus Christ Himself had?

James

Too many churches focus more on the color of the carpet in the pastor's office than they do on reaching the lost. Too many spend all their money on the building, utilities, cleaning and upkeep, remodelling, getting just the right chandliers from Europe no matter what the cost, that they don't have any left over for the real work of the church.

You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to get American Christians to let go of any of their money if they don't see a direct benefit to themselves. They want a plaque in the vestibule with their name and the amount of money they give or have given for some building fund drive or for special church fixtures. The last thing the do with their money is something that will actually help the poor or sick, reach the lost or give aid to the hopeless. Those sick, poor, hopeless people aren't like us and we don't want them coming into our church and making us uncomfortable, I guess. :(

[JPPT1974]

In order to walk the walk
And talk the talk
We must do so with actions
Actions you know speak louder than words

[Oddsox]

Amen, my old church professed to be about welcoming and being open but I had to leave because nothing I said would get taken seriously because I had grown up in the church. My mum wouldn't even let me go to the members meetings because she said they were to ugly with shouting and bickering.

By the way SonofThunder...may I ask something? I was just curious how you made your concerns known to the churches that you mentioned..it might help me later on. :) Thanks

[tulc]

How many churches struggle with maintaining a building, (rental,utilitites,loans,rates) also the pays of leaders and have nothing left to give the needy? How many churches also support a hierachy? (Vatican comes to mind).

Has the church body strayed from the example of ministry that Jesus Christ Himself had?

James

I'm reminded of a story:
Several centuries ago one of the popes, who was an avid patron of the arts is said to have surveyed the vast artistic riches he had amassed and to have gloated: "No longer can the Church of Jesus say "Silver and gold have I none." And a subordinate replied, "But then neither can she say, "Rise up and walk".
:sigh:
tulc(almost ready for Church!) :)

[SonOfThunder]

By the way SonofThunder...may I ask something? I was just curious how you made your concerns known to the churches that you mentioned..it might help me later on. :) Thanks

hi :wave:

Over time I have just observed these practices and wondered why people don't stand up against them generally. I guess many a church split has happened over some of these practices and many a church meeting disolved in division.

The only issue I did speak to the Pastor about was the Christmas tree on the platform. (after the event) When I saw it sharing the platform I just didn't go to church over the Christmas period. Since I was not used to celebrating Christmas in any way the practice of having a tree with gifts underneath seemed wrong to me.

Does it alter my relationship with God as an individual? no

Could it distract from the true meaning of being in worship?
yes

James

[JPPT1974]

Amen, my old church professed to be about welcoming and being open but I had to leave because nothing I said would get taken seriously because I had grown up in the church. My mum wouldn't even let me go to the members meetings because she said they were to ugly with shouting and bickering.

By the way SonofThunder...may I ask something? I was just curious how you made your concerns known to the churches that you mentioned..it might help me later on. :) Thanks

Prayin that your old church will go back to their old and sweet and welcoming ways
Sorry that happened my friend!:sigh: