The Anglican church ??

[copticorthodoxy]

The Anglican church consider itself a protestant church ?? and do you use the liturgy ??
what is the diffrence between Anglican and old catholic ?

[TomUK]

The Anglican Church occupies the unique position of being fully Catholic and fully 'Protestant'. Most of our Churches do use a variety of liturgies, many of which are ancient in origin.

[copticorthodoxy]

The Anglican Church occupies the unique position of being fully Catholic and fully 'Protestant'. Most of our Churches do use a variety of liturgies, many of which are ancient in origin.

what you accept from the catholic teachings and what you accept from the protestant teaching ?

[TomUK]

This is a post made by a fellow Anglican a few months ago which may help a bit.

(3 guesses to who it was! ;) )

The problem here is that "Catholic" and "Protestant" are commonly used as opposites, which they are not.

Without a capital "C", "catholic" just means "universal". It is used in colloquial speach such as "as far as ethnic food choices go my tastes are catholic", or "the scope of his education was catholic to the extent that no question left him bemused". You won't see the word used this way on Oprah, but if you read books written more than fifty years ago, you'll run across sentences like these.

Up until the middle of the twentieth century, capital letters were routinely used in English not only for proper names, but also for abstract philosophical principles and for abstract nouns. Thus, Spring and Summer rather than spring and summer, and thus also "Catholic" when refering to the religious principal described by that adjective (which is how, complete with capital, you will see it written in the 1549, the 1552, the 1662, and the 1928). In this context, "Catholic" refers to the belief that the Body of Christ exists in the Church, which is the whole company of all Faithful People, united throughout time and space. The opposite principle is NOT "Protestant", but "Congregationalist" -- the belief that the Body of Christ exists in its fullness in the local congregation, without reference to any other congregation or gathering or superordinate structure.

Anglicans are Catholic, not Congregationalist.

"Protestant" literally means "one who protests", and refers to the princes and clerics who formally protested the findings and declarations of the Diet of Worms. (I believe most of us would protest a diet of worms, the royal chef most of all, but I digress, and flippantly at that). I don't recall that Henry VIII protested, because if I have the order of events right, he had already recognized the principle of episcopal independance, and therefore had nothing to do with the Diet of Worms which was convened under the rejected papal authority. But more generally, we do "protest" a variety of false dogmas and abuses, and acknowledge that such protestations are part of the responsibility of a Christian. Chief among those false doctrines is papal authority and episcopal hierarchicalism.

In this context, the opposite of Protestant is not "Catholic", but "Dogmatic". "Dogma" refers to doctrines that are formulated by a central authority for promulgation to the faithful, who are required to consent.

Anglicans are Protestant, not Dogmatic.

There are denominations that believe that to be fully part of Christ's One Body which is the Whole Company of all faithful people, that you must consent to their dogma promulgated by their central authority. Historic Anglicanism heartily denies that requirement; which is an addition to the faith, and which in fact divides the body -- doing violence to the principal of Catholicism.

Anglicans are Catholic and Protestant. We are not Congregationalist, and we are not Dogmatic.

[pmcleanj]

what you accept from the catholic teachings and what you accept from the protestant teaching ?
We do not consider that Catholic and Protestant teachings are distinct from each other, nor that they form a dichotomy. Those teachings that are truly Catholic *are* Protestant; and those that are truly Protestant *are* Catholic.

We are Catholic rather than "Congregationalist". We believe there is one Holy Apostolic Church that is the Body of Christ and that subsists as the whole company of all Christian People in all times and places. The congregationalist notion that a single congregation independently represents the Whole of the Body of Christ, an idea that is often associated with Protestantism, is not a belief that Anglicans could consent to and remain consistent to our historic liturgical inheritance.

We are Protestant in that we believe that there is no hierarchy culminating in a single Bishop able to promulgate dogma binding upon other Bishops. Rather, we "protest" the findings of the Diet of Worms and subsequent councils that usurped the responsibility of Bishops and of individual believers. Dogmaticism, which is often associated with Catholicism, is not a belief that Anglicans can consent to given our ancient tradition of individual and episcopal responsibility.

We have liturgy and through that liturgy we celebrate the sacraments, including liturgy to preserve the historic episcopacy that is associated with true Apostolic Succession. The level of ceremonial surrounding that liturgy varies from a sparsity of decoration often associated with protestantism, to an abundance of decoration often associated with Catholicism. These are matters of preference rather than doctrine, since the core of the liturgy -- the true Word of God preached and the Sacraments duly celebrated -- is preserved in both the spartan and the baroque styles of worship

[gtsecc]

We have the fullness of the faith, but don't teach it to everyone or force everyone to believe all of it outside of the creeds. For example, I know Mary was Theotokus, and a perpetual Virgin because I was taught that by my church. I can also look at early writings and see that the belief I was taught is backed up by what the Church has always believed. However, we don't require that as a belief to take communion, so some of our parishioners, who are baptized, and Christian, can receive, don’t believe or know these things. We accept the councils, but allow folks to quibble over weather there were 4 or 7, since by your church’s witness, there really were only 4 ecumenical councils. Our liturgy is western, but we sometimes use Basil the Great’s anaphora found in the Prayer Book as Prayer D.

[gtsecc]

Eucharistic Prayer D

The people remain standing. The Celebrant, whether bishop or priest, faces them and
sings or says

The Lord be with you.
People And also with you.
Celebrant Lift up your hearts.
People We lift them to the Lord.
Celebrant Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People It is right to give him thanks and praise.

Then, facing the Holy Table, the Celebrant proceeds

It is truly right to glorify you, Father, and to give you thanks;
for you alone are God, living and true, dwelling in light
inaccessible from before time and for ever.

Fountain of life and source of all goodness, you made all
things and fill them with your blessing; you created them to
rejoice in the splendor of your radiance.

Countless throngs of angels stand before you to serve you
night and day; and, beholding the glory of your presence,
they offer you unceasing praise. Joining with them, and
giving voice to every creature under heaven, we acclaim you,
and glorify your Name, as we sing (say),

Celebrant and People

Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

The people stand or kneel.

Then the Celebrant continues

We acclaim you, holy Lord, glorious in power. Your mighty
works reveal your wisdom and love. You formed us in your
own image, giving the whole world into our care, so that, in
obedience to you, our Creator, we might rule and serve all
your creatures. When our disobedience took us far from you,
you did not abandon us to the power of death. In your mercy
you came to our help, so that in seeking you we might find
you. Again and again you called us into covenant with you,
and through the prophets you taught us to hope for salvation.

Father, you loved the world so much that in the fullness of
time you sent your only Son to be our Savior. Incarnate by
the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, he lived as one of
us, yet without sin. To the poor he proclaimed the good news
of salvation; to prisoners, freedom; to the sorrowful, joy. To
fulfill your purpose he gave himself up to death; and, rising
from the grave, destroyed death, and made the whole
creation new.

And, that we might live no longer for ourselves, but for him
who died and rose for us, he sent the Holy Spirit, his own
first gift for those who believe, to complete his work in
the world, and to bring to fulfillment the sanctification of all.

At the following words concerning the bread, the Celebrant is to hold
it, or lay a hand upon it; and at the words concerning the cup, to hold
or place a hand upon the cup and any other vessel containing wine to be
consecrated.

When the hour had come for him to be glorified by you, his
heavenly Father, having loved his own who were in the
world, he loved them to the end; at supper with them he took
bread, and when he had given thanks to you, he broke it, and
gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat: This is my Body,
which is given for you. Do this for the remembrance of me.”

After supper he took the cup of wine; and when he had given
thanks, he gave it to them, and said, “Drink this, all of you:
This is my Blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for you
and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Whenever you drink
it, do this for the remembrance of me.”

Father, we now celebrate this memorial of our redemption.
Recalling Christ’s death and his descent among the dead,
proclaiming his resurrection and ascension to your right
hand, awaiting his coming in glory; and offering to you, from
the gifts you have given us, this bread and this cup, we praise
you and we bless you.

Celebrant and People

We praise you, we bless you,
we give thanks to you,
and we pray to you, Lord our God.

The Celebrant continues

Lord, we pray that in your goodness and mercy your Holy
Spirit may descend upon us, and upon these gifts, sanctifying
them and showing them to be holy gifts for your holy people,
the bread of life and the cup of salvation, the Body and Blood
of your Son Jesus Christ.

Grant that all who share this bread and cup may become one
body and one spirit, a living sacrifice in Christ, to the praise
of your Name.

Remember, Lord, your one holy catholic and apostolic
Church, redeemed by the blood of your Christ. Reveal its
unity, guard its faith, and preserve it in peace.

[Remember (NN. and) all who minister in your Church.]
[Remember all your people, and those who seek your truth.]
[Remember _____________.]
[Remember all who have died in the peace of Christ, and
those whose faith is known to you alone; bring them into
the place of eternal joy and light.]

And grant that we may find our inheritance with [the Blessed
Virgin Mary, with patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs,
(with ___________) and] all the saints who have found favor
with you in ages past. We praise you in union with them
and give you glory through your Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Through Christ, and with Christ, and in Christ, all honor and
glory are yours, Almighty God and Father, in the unity of the
Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. AMEN.

And now, as our Savior As our Savior Christ
Christ has taught us, has taught us,
we are bold to say, we now pray,

Continue with the Lord’s Prayer on page 364.

[copticorthodoxy]

do you believe that the bread become a real body and the wine become a real blood of our lord Jesus Christ ?
- the catholics have the pope , the Oriental Orthodox have a pope too and Patriaches ( pope of Alexandria ) , Eastern orthodox have Patriaches ,who is the head of your church ??

[PaladinValer]

We do believe that the Eucharist is Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity; a sacrifice of Grace from God to under the form of bread and wine.

The first-among-equals in the Anglican Church is the Archbishop of Canterbury. Currently, the ABC (ArchBishop of Canterbury) is Dr. Rowan Williams.

[copticorthodoxy]

is there monasticism in the Anglican church ?? what is the diffrence between Anglican & Old Catholic ??

[gtsecc]

All the Coptics I know of ( less than 15), who can't get to a Coptic parish, go to an Episcopal parish.

[Wiffey]

I'll let someone more knowledgeable than me answer re: Anglicans & Old Catholics, but there are Anglican monastics.

http://www.holycrossmonastery.com/

[gtsecc]

Of course we have monasticism.

[gtsecc]

You can Check out the liturgy for any Rite here:

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/

[Wiffey]

There is also a tradition of praying the daily office, as well as noetic prayer...of course, this will be familiar to you.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I'll let someone more knowledgeable than me answer re: Anglicans & Old Catholics, but there are Anglican monastics.

http://www.holycrossmonastery.com/

My priest was chaplain to this monastery for quite some time. :thumbsup:

[Fish and Bread]

what is the diffrence between Anglican & Old Catholic ??

Old Catholics come from a completely seperate background, but wound up in a similar place theologically, which is why we Anglicans are grouped together in one forum with them. The Old Catholic roots are in the See of Uterect and it's theological disputes with the Vatican, which came to a head around the time of the Roman Catholic council of Vatican I. I think there's a stickied thread at the top of the forum with some more information on Old Catholicism. Things we've historically shared in common include claims to Apostolic Succession, maintaining historic liturgies, maintaining the historic three-fold ministry (bishops, priests, and deacons), and a belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

[TomUK]

Old Catholics come from a completely seperate background, but wound up in a similar place theologically, which is why we Anglicans are grouped together in one forum with them. The Old Catholic roots are in the See of Uterect and it's theological disputes with the Vatican, which came to a head around the time of the Roman Catholic council of Vatican I. I think there's a stickied thread at the top of the forum with some more information on Old Catholicism. Things we've historically shared in common include claims to Apostolic Succession, maintaining historic liturgies, maintaining the historic three-fold ministry (bishops, priests, and deacons), and a belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Just to add to what John said, i think there is perhaps a little confusion over whether Anglicans and Old Catholics are really the same Church and as John points we are different in a few significant areas (the most notable of which is history). Sadly i'm not wise enough to enter into specifics there.

To fill you in the reasons we share a forum though, around a year ago a rather ugly situation arose in OBOB. After a few weeks Old Catholics were told in no uncertain terms that they were no longer welcome in OBOB but Erwin was reluctant to create a new forum as there were so few Old Catholic forum members. A member of STR ( i don't recall who) proposed the idea of opening up this forum to Old Catholics as we shared a common heriatage and we both are truely Catholic Churches.

Since then a few proposals have emerged to create a full Catholic forum here at Christianforums but sadly they have yet to materialise. Until that time arrives however, STR remains the home of Catholic ecumenism.

[copticorthodoxy]

i feel that the Anglican and old catholic look like the RC more than the protestant !

[Wiffey]

Actually, in many ways the traditional Anglicans look far more Catholic than modern Roman Catholics do...(particularly since Vatican II and the dawn of the Novus Ordo mass.)

[gtsecc]

i feel that the Anglican and old catholic look like the RC more than the protestant !

Of course, we are part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as are the Coptics. You can also see that we tend towards the Western Liturgy, and EO/OO theology and some would claim we are western Rite Orthodoxy.

However, you can find parishes, which would seem like a non-denomination protestant parish. Among those folks, all that you and I see as essential, they would likely see as a negative.

[gtsecc]

...the dawn of the Novus Ordo mass.)

How then has it weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.'

;)

[copticorthodoxy]

Of course, we are part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as are the Coptics. You can also see that we tend towards the Western Liturgy, and EO/OO theology and some would claim we are western Rite Orthodoxy.

However, you can find parishes, which would seem like a non-denomination protestant parish. Among those folks, all that you and I see as essential, they would likely see as a negative.

There is an Anglican bishop in Egypt to serve the Anglican foreingers , he has a good relation with the pope of Alexandria and i see him attending our christmas liturgy at 7 January to congratulate the Pope

[Naomi4Christ]

i feel that the Anglican and old catholic look like the RC more than the protestant !

Not from where I'm standing.

[copticorthodoxy]

Not from where I'm standing.

how ???

[gtsecc]

Not from where I'm standing.

who moved?

[Naomi4Christ]

how ???

We have no resemblance to Roman Catholic worship. Just because we don't believe that's the best way for us to grow in our Christian faith and reach out to others.

We are our own people. We don't have to look to Rome for validation. That's a crazy thought.

[copticorthodoxy]

We have no resemblance to Roman Catholic worship. Just because we don't believe that's the best way for us to grow in our Christian faith and reach out to others.

We are our own people. We don't have to look to Rome for validation. That's a crazy thought.

if you have beliefs and traditions similar to RC more than the Protestant thats mean that you look like RC more than protestant even if you don't belong to the Roman Pope

[Naomi4Christ]

if you have beliefs and traditions similar to RC more than the Protestant thats mean that you look like RC more than protestant even if you don't belong to the Roman Pope

Our beliefs and traditions are not similar to RC. We are a reformed church.

[TomUK]

if you have beliefs and traditions similar to RC more than the Protestant thats mean that you look like RC more than protestant even if you don't belong to the Roman Pope

The RC's beliefs traditions are indeed similar to the Anglican Church (except in a few areas where they have erred)

[copticorthodoxy]

Our beliefs and traditions are not similar to RC. We are a reformed church.

The RC's beliefs traditions are indeed similar to the Anglican Church (except in a few areas where they have erred)

there is contradict between both of you !

[Naomi4Christ]

Welcome to Anglicanism

[Aymn27]

there is contradict between both of you !
Within Anglicanism there is a more "reformed" tradition (more Protestant in basic terms) and a more "Catholic" tradition which is closer to a "Western" Orthodox stand theologically (and a whole spectrum in between). The two groups are in communion with each other despite their differences of opinion theologically.

The Anglican Church in Egypt is more evangelical if memory serves me right...there is a discussion of a possible split within the Church due to the issue of authority and Scriptural interpretation - the Anglican "South" (Africa, Asia, South America) have discussed relocating the center of the more conservative communion to Alexandria, Egypt.

[gtsecc]

Try a few different churches in your area. Due to the variety of beliefs in Anglicanism, you could find something you might not even recognize as Christian, or something very close to the Coptic Confession.