Cloud of Unknowing

[karen freeinchristman]

Anyone heard of it?

Apparently some kind of 14th-15th century mystic/contemplative tradition.

Wondering if anyone knows what it is? :confused:

[AngCath]

I've read it. Great mystical work. I don't recommend reading it just for "the heck of it." If possible, if you decide to read it, read it under the guidance of a spiritual director and/or someone versed in the book.

[karen freeinchristman]

I've read it. Great mystical work. I don't recommend reading it just for "the heck of it." If possible, if you decide to read it, read it under the guidance of a spiritual director and/or someone versed in the book.

Interesting you should say that, because the reason why I have asked the question is that I have been given a list of Spiritual Directors to choose from, and one of them states that she 'draws spiritually from an eclectic mix which includes contemplative spirituality and pastoral theology and the spirituality of mission but works mainly with the mystic/contemplative tradition from the 14th-15th century; Cloud of Unknowing, Teresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich etc. to modern day contemplatives such as Thomas Merton and Thomas Keating.'

So I would be doing it with her.

Sounds good! (I just googled it and got a rough idea what it is about).

[AngCath]

works mainly with the mystic/contemplative tradition from the 14th-15th century; Cloud of Unknowing, Teresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich etc. to modern day contemplatives such as Thomas Merton and Thomas Keating
Sounds good. I am a big fan of the mystics.

[Inside Edge]

I've read it. Well, most of it - some parts lost me so badly all I could do was skip the paragraph/chapter (whatever - some chapters aren't much more than a couple paragraphs).

I was introduced to conteplative prayer by a local priest that I talk to fairly often. He, too, suggested some material to read along with The Cloud because it won't help much on its own.

It is essentially a 14/15th century guide to contemplative (meditative) prayer. Very contemplative - so much so that it sounds strikingly close to Zen ideas/techniques.

I really liked reading it, just because I read a lot of primary source work. But again, very difficult without some modern-day explanatory material. I think Keating is the contemporary "Cloud of Unknowing" master, and he has a lot of written material about contemplative prayer that would shed some light on The Cloud.

[artrx]

I'll second AngloCath. It's a great mystical work and it does help to read it with a commentary/professor (I read parts of it for a class long ago) or spiritual director. I'm jealous, your spiritual director sounds wonderful. Someday I want to do that, even though I don't want to be a priest.

[AngCath]

I personally like Spiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross better. the Imagery is similar to Songs of Solomon.

[karen freeinchristman]

the Imagery is similar to Songs of Solomon.

Oh Aye??? :o

[TomUK]

I've not really read many mystics, but i've always loved Lady Julian of Norwich.

[ContraMundum]

I'm a big fan of the book. I also like some of the other teachers on the eclectic mix list - in particular Merton and Keating. I pray my office with Carmelites twice weekly so I am a little influenced by John of the Cross but he scares me sometimes with some of his poetry which comes across as a little....well....umm....homo-erotic. Yuk.

[Wiffey]

Both John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila had a very sensual way of describing religious ecstasy. Maybe its a Spanish thing?

[ContraMundum]

Both John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila had a very sensual way of describing religious ecstasy. Maybe its a Spanish thing?

I know, but when John of the Cross speaks of his "religious" experience in such a way without mentioning God or Christ I sometimes wonder what's really going on. But maybe I'm just a homophobe.

[Wiffey]

I like to think of it as an extension of the imagery of Christ as Bridegroom and Church as bride...a mystical and transcendent union. It can be difficult, especially when (in our very jaded and modern society) we tend to see sexual subtext everywhere, because we've seen way too much.
But in their time, spiritual ecstatic union wasn't giggled at or made to seem lurid. So their very passionate, intimate love of Christ would not have been twisted into anything nasty.

[Aymn27]

I like to think of it as an extension of the imagery of Christ as Bridegroom and Church as bride...a mystical and transcendent union. It can be difficult, especially when (in our very jaded and modern society) we tend to see sexual subtext everywhere, because we've seen way too much.
But in their time, spiritual ecstatic union wasn't giggled at or made to seem lurid. So their very passionate, intimate love of Christ would not have been twisted into anything nasty.
Nah..he's a "homophobe"...rofl
(I'm right there with ya!)

I once went to a meeting where the lady guiding us in prayer used a visualization of us walking near a stream with Jesus...she went on to play soft music and helped us to imagine holding hands w/him, dancing with him, sitting close to him and watching the water, etc...

When she was finished she asked how we felt...and I, trying to be cute, blurted out "Gay!"..she did not think it was funny!!!

[karen freeinchristman]

I once went to a meeting where the lady guiding us in prayer used a visualization of us walking near a stream with Jesus...she went on to play soft music and helped us to imagine holding hands w/him, dancing with him, sitting close to him and watching the water, etc...

When she was finished she asked how we felt...and I, trying to be cute, blurted out "Gay!"..she did not think it was funny!!!

:o

How uncouth of you, Aaron!

[Wiffey]

That's really funny!

[ContraMundum]

Nah..he's a "homophobe"...rofl
(I'm right there with ya!)

I once went to a meeting where the lady guiding us in prayer used a visualization of us walking near a stream with Jesus...she went on to play soft music and helped us to imagine holding hands w/him, dancing with him, sitting close to him and watching the water, etc...

When she was finished she asked how we felt...and I, trying to be cute, blurted out "Gay!"..she did not think it was funny!!!

Your director at that meeting should have had you visualize going to a football game with Jesus...playing cheering crowds on her ghetto blaster, helping you imagine watching the "Heaven Angels" absolutely thrash the "Hell Demons" 100-0, buying hot dogs and coke together...etc.

:thumbsup:

[ChessCastle]

Interesting you should say that, because the reason why I have asked the question is that I have been given a list of Spiritual Directors to choose from, and one of them states that she 'draws spiritually from an eclectic mix which includes contemplative spirituality and pastoral theology and the spirituality of mission but works mainly with the mystic/contemplative tradition from the 14th-15th century; Cloud of Unknowing, Teresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich etc. to modern day contemplatives such as Thomas Merton and Thomas Keating.'

So I would be doing it with her.

Sounds good! (I just googled it and got a rough idea what it is about).

Hello! I hope you don't mind a couple of questions...
What is a Spiritual Director?
What exactly is a mystic?

CC

[karen freeinchristman]

Hello! I hope you don't mind a couple of questions...
What is a Spiritual Director?
What exactly is a mystic?

CC

Hi CC!

A Spiritual Director is (from what I know) someone who is called to walk with people in their faith journey. This person would be someone who has got some kind of gifting in being alongside people, in guiding, and in listening; often helping people to pray about issues they are having in their spiritual life, are involved in healing ministry, and helping with blockages to spiritual growth. They help people discover different ways of spirituality, of prayer, contemplation, etc. They usually have got some kind of training to do this service. They offer themselves for service within their diocese. Anyone can meet with a Spiritual Director, but they are especially recommended to people who are involved in intensive ministry, mainly so as not to suffer from burn-out and to keep on the right track.



I'll let someone else answer about what is a mystic!

[ChessCastle]

Hi CC!

A Spiritual Director is (from what I know) someone who is called to walk with people in their faith journey. This person would be someone who has got some kind of gifting in being alongside people, in guiding, and in listening; often helping people to pray about issues they are having in their spiritual life, are involved in healing ministry, and helping with blockages to spiritual growth. They help people discover different ways of spirituality, of prayer, contemplation, etc. They usually have got some kind of training to do this service. They offer themselves for service within their diocese. Anyone can meet with a Spiritual Director, but they are especially recommended to people who are involved in intensive ministry, mainly so as not to suffer from burn-out and to keep on the right track.



I'll let someone else answer about what is a mystic!

Hi Karen! Thanks for the quick response, I had no idea such a position existed. I'll have to ask my priest tommorow if we have someone who does anything like this at my parish.

No answer on the mystic question? Argh now I'm not going to be able to sleep :)

Did you choose which director you will go with yet?

CC

[karen freeinchristman]

Did you choose which director you will go with yet?


Not yet, but I will probably visit more than one to start with, and sees how they 'feel'.

Apart from the woman who I described in the OP (who is ordained, by the way), there are three other women that have been suggested to me, 2 of them ordained and one lay. I'll post their self-descriptions, which helps describe their role:

- Trained and practised as a Spiritual Director in the Bristol Diocese before I was ordained. I would describe my spiritual base as broad evangelical charismatic catholic. I work in a UPA (urban priority area) parish. I also hold a Diploma in Pastoral Counselling and have an interest in the Healing Ministry in its broadest sense.

- Reader Emeritus, involved in helping people to listen to themselves, to each other and to God through Diocesan courses, prayer groups and retreats. Scientific background, worked as careers adviser, plays golf. People have found it easy to talk to her about things that matter to them. (this is the lay person).

- 29 years as lead nurse for surgery at a children's hospital. Counsellor and supervisor of other counsellors for CRUSE (don't know what that is). Ordained in 2001 and became full time curate in 2003. Involved in all aspects of healing and listening ministry. Sustained by prayer. Married to ---- who is doing ordination training, and with 2 grown daughters.

[ChessCastle]

Sounds like you hasve some very good, and diverse choices there. Let us know which one you choose and how it goes!

:thumbsup:
CC