Translation Questions

[Fish and Bread]

A couple questions for those more learned than I about biblical translations:

* Are there any translations of the bible which translate presbyter as priest and not elder in the epistles?

* Are there any bibles other than the NRSV that include the deutrocanonicals and are as modern or more modern in terms of scholarship and what original texts the translators had access to? Some recommend going back to the RSV for various reasons, but the Old Testament scholarship is way out of date -- 1940s era, before the discovery of a lot of different alternate ancient texts.

[gtsecc]

My understandign is that Christian Priests are a later developement, and so might not be found in the NT as they are today. They are an assitant to the Bishop, which is why they cross their stoles, signifying "no authority."

[Wiffey]

If you're interested in an interesting read about biblical sources, translations & textual criticism, the book "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman is very good.

[TomUK]

A couple questions for those more learned than I about biblical translations:

* Are there any translations of the bible which translate presbyter as priest and not elder in the epistles?

* Are there any bibles other than the NRSV that include the deutrocanonicals and are as modern or more modern in terms of scholarship and what original texts the translators had access to? Some recommend going back to the RSV for various reasons, but the Old Testament scholarship is way out of date -- 1940s era, before the discovery of a lot of different alternate ancient texts.

Can't help with your first question in any way. The only other bibles with deutrocanon are the new jerusalem (and of course the jerusalem), the new english bible or the REB for its revision

[PaladinValer]

TomUK, the RSV has the complete Deuterocanon as well. The "Common Edition" was born in 1977 (I believe).

[Naomi4Christ]

The "Common Edition" was born in 1977 (I believe).

Not good enough for Hyacinth Bucket then...

[gtsecc]

Unexpurgated (no books removed) versions that I am aware of:
REB
NEB
KJV
NJB
JB
RSV
NRSV
GoodNews
Douay Rheims
NAB

Then, to be a pedant
Psalm 151
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees
are only in RVS, and NRSV

[AngCath]

for deuterocanon and modern scholarship outside the NRSV world you can refer to the Catholic Study Bible NAB and the Oxford Study Bible REB.

[gtsecc]

Not good enough for Hyacinth Bucket then...
her brother is my spiritual idol.

[TomUK]

her brother is my spiritual idol.


That explains a lot




;)

[artrx]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeruselm Bible incomparison to others?

[Naomi4Christ]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeruselm Bible incomparison to others?

Chinese whispers

[artrx]

Chinese whispers
:confused: sorry, I'm clueless.

[gtsecc]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Jeruselm Bible incomparison to others?

Despite it being a French translation, and then into English, it is miles better than something like the NIV. In the End, I am settling on a Oxford Expanded edition for stufy and reading, and an NEB for easy reading. It should also be noted that the notes in the JB are amoung the best.

[Naomi4Christ]

Despite it being a French translation, and then into English, it is miles better than something like the NIV.

On what basis?

And why doesn't my church use the JB, since it is superior according to Gtsecc of the USA?

[TomUK]

It's fundamentally a Catholic translation of scripture, and there are occasional renderings of phrases which your church may be uncomfortable with.

[higgs2]

Not good enough for Hyacinth Bucket then...
Who is Hyacinth Bucket?

[TomUK]

The lead character in a superb sitcom.

She's sitting in the middle.

http://www.rmpbn.org/britcom/images/pkeepgrp.gif

(glenn's spiritual advisor is on the back left!)

[gtsecc]

On what basis?
Well, take a look around and see what versions scholars and theolgians are using. You don't have to do a scientific study to tell which versions are considered useful or not.

And why doesn't my church use the JB, since it is superior according to Gtsecc of the USA?
Your Church is reactionary to anything that they perceive as Catholic. For example, your parish probably likes the NIV translation of Episkopos as Overseer rather than Bishop. Bishop is more accurate, but Protestant parishes bristles at the idea, so they would prefer the NIV.

[higgs2]

Well, take a look around and see what versions scholars and theolgians are using. You don't have to do a scientific study to tell which versions are considered useful or not.


Your Church is reactionary to anything that they perceive as Catholic. For example, your parish probably likes the NIV translation of Episkopos as Overseer rather than Bishop. Bishop is more accurate, but Protestant parishes bristles at the idea, so they would prefer the NIV.

That's my point, too. The books that refer to the NIV seem to be books like "The Prayer of Jabez". "Inspirational" type stuff but not really scholarly.

[Fish and Bread]

My understandign is that Christian Priests are a later developement, and so might not be found in the NT as they are today. They are an assitant to the Bishop, which is why they cross their stoles, signifying "no authority."

I've been told that the term elder in the bible is a translation of the Greek presbyter. Over time, presbyter became anglicized to "priest". The churches that are within the historic episcopate have generally preserved the use of the term priest, whereas those that are not have switch to elder, pastor, or minister because they feel that the term priest implies that the Eucharist is a sacrifice, which they object to on theological grounds. The thing that makes it really confusing is that the term priest was actually in existence when the New Testament was written and the New Testament refers to non-Christian clergypeople that way at times, but not Christian clergypeople. In essence, the New Testament makes a linguistic distinction of some sort, but a changing language then eliminated that distinction, which then leads to the question of intent and so forth. It's a complicated issue.

[gtsecc]

Episkopos means overseer - but, when Christians use the term, it means Bishop - specifically, the one who oversees the Eucharist.

[karen freeinchristman]

Episkopos means overseer - but, when Christians use the term, it means Bishop - specifically, the one who oversees the Eucharist.
I would think that it means more than one who oversees the Eucharist.

[gtsecc]

I would think that it means more than one who oversees the Eucharist.

Of course, but I want to point out that it is more than just the guy in charge of stuff, it has a specific sacramental oversight connected to it, and that is the celebration of the Eucharist. So, one who lead people, or oversaw people, or did theology, or wrote, would still not be Bishop, unless he was the one who was presiding over the Eucharist.

[SirTimothy]

gtsecc, intruigingly I found a GNB with the full deuterocanonicals in the other day...

Timothy

[Simon_Templar]

ok priests and bishops :)

The terms in greek as used in the NT are Presbyturos and Episkopos respectively.

In language, two things often occur when moving from one language to another.. in documents words are usualy translated.. the word presbyteros in greek means an older person, a respected older person, someone viewed as a 'father' of the community etc.. thus in english it is translated "elder". Episkopos on the other hand means someone who has oversight, someone who is in charge of keeping others in line.. thus in english it is translated to "overseer".

the other thing that often happens when moving from one language to another is called "transliteration" this usually occers with names, and titles. For example, the name Jeus, in hebrew is y'shua a shortened version of yahoshua which means Yahweh is salvation. The shortened version, y'shua means simply "salvation". When y'shua was brought into greek it was transliterated (which means to cross letters, or to exhange letters) greek doesn't use y the equivalent is I so the y = I, in greek it doesn't really use the SH sound like it does in hebrew, thus the SH becomes in greek a "eso". Likewise the "ua" dipthong sound doesn't really exist in greek, so it became the closest equivalent "us"

thus in greek y'shua was Iesous.. in latin that became Iesus.. then in the medieval period the latin I which was a consonent became a J and the name became Jesus.

Well the same thing was done with titles. So when a person was called a presbyteros in greek as a title of an office.. in latin they transliterated it as Presbyter. When presbyter was transliterated into later vulger latin it became Prester, from there it went into old german as "preost" and eventually to english as "priest"

Episkopos follows basicly the same pattern going to latin as Episcopus, then to old english as Bisceop.. and modern english as Bishop.

In the biblical texts most of the time the words are translated for meaning, rather than rendered as transliterated titles..

Priest is the english transliteration of Presbyteros
likewise bishop is the english transliteration of Episkopos.

[ContraMundum]

A couple questions for those more learned than I about biblical translations:

* Are there any translations of the bible which translate presbyter as priest and not elder in the epistles?

Lord, I hope not. They're different words.

* Are there any bibles other than the NRSV that include the deutrocanonicals and are as modern or more modern in terms of scholarship and what original texts the translators had access to? Some recommend going back to the RSV for various reasons, but the Old Testament scholarship is way out of date -- 1940s era, before the discovery of a lot of different alternate ancient texts.

There's lots of Bibles with the Apocrypha. My favorite is the KJV. :)

[ContraMundum]

The proper translation of the word for "heireus" is "priest". This means one who offers sacrifices, eg, the Old Testament priesthood.

The ministers in the NT are referred to (as has been noted) literally as servers/attendants, elders and overseerers.

[pmcleanj]

I've been told that the term elder in the bible is a translation of the Greek presbyter. Over time, presbyter became anglicized to "priest".
I've been told that, when the Phantom Menace was translated into Chinese for dubbing, and then translated from Chinese to English for subtitling, "the Jedi Council" became "The Presbyterian Church". :eek:

You can see how that might happen.

[Fish and Bread]

I've been told that, when the Phantom Menace was translated into Chinese for dubbing, and then translated from Chinese to English for subtitling, "the Jedi Council" became "The Presbyterian Church". :eek:

You can see how that might happen.

LOL. Well, they both seem to be Calvinists.... ;)

[Wiffey]

LOL. Well, they both seem to be Calvinists.... ;)


^_^ Teehee....that struck me as funny.

[PaladinValer]

Actually, I would think "hierarch" would be a better translation of heireus.

[ContraMundum]

Actually, I would think "hierarch" would be a better translation of heireus.

Why? They have completely different meanings.