Catholic and Orthodox

[Fish and Bread]

I'd love to see a few Anglican perspectives on the following OBOB thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2563736-catholic-and-orthodox.html

It's fascinating and very entertaining to boot. :)

[AngCath]

I checked it out. It seemed like a pretty good discussion. I noticed you did some poking too.

[IowaLutheran]

I'd love to see a few Anglican perspectives on the following OBOB thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2563736-catholic-and-orthodox.html

It's fascinating and very entertaining to boot. :)

You're quite the pot-stirrer, aren't you!
As I posted in the "Its Grrrrrrrrreat to be Anglican" thread, I'm a big fan of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral and the Lex Orandi Lex Credendi aspect of Anglicanism, so their emphasis on exact agreement on all details and demand for complete submission to the other is quite foreign to my way of thinking.

[TomUK]

Bout half way through - very interesting so far, and bizarrely restrained for OBOB!

[TomUK]

Well that was all a good read. It did highlight however some of the fundamental problems of reunification between Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

In order for reunification Rome has to concede on far too many points-sdaly not very likely.

[ContraMundum]

They'll never reunite. Such is life.

[higgs2]

All they need to do is come to the Altar at an Anglican church, they're both welcome. Voila! Unity ;)

[Filia Mariae]

All they need to do is come to the Altar at an Anglican church, they're both welcome. Voila! Unity ;)

The unity Catholics are seeking is not one where we ignore our differences, but rather one where we resolve them.

[ContraMundum]

If the Popes dropped their claims to supremacy and infallibility it would open up the possibility of re-unification for all Christendom. The EOC could then work things out with them, the original Protestants could too.

But, guess what folks? That will never happen because they've painted themselves into a purple-coloured corner.

Anyway, one day Christians both EOC and RCC will realize that when Christ prayed for His church to be One, it happened, and regardless of how it looks to us, it is still One now (or else Christ's prayers are ineffective- which means we'll all sunk in regards even our salvation!). We should accept that we are One and then try to act like it.

Yeah, I know I'm standing on the edge looking down a precipice about to be pushed by some of the people here at CF, but really, we need to think more about Christ's Body and Kingdom and less about the juristictions of various bishops (although that is still an important part of the faith, it's the overemphasis of it that I'm speaking of).

[Aymn27]

The unity Catholics are seeking is not one where we ignore our differences, but rather one where we resolve them.
Not where they are resolved, but where others submit and are inculturated into the Catholic ethos - which is why if Bennie(and many on OBOB) get their way, there'll be Latin masses in China...

[ContraMundum]

The unity Catholics are seeking is not one where we ignore our differences, but rather one where we resolve them.

We do not advocate ignoring our differences either, but rather acknowledging our unity in Christ through our baptism and faith while trying to resolve our differences.

No communion table anywhere on the face of the planet represents 100% concord of the participants, regardless of the claims of those churches who practice closed communion. We do not all think alike. However, if we can all agree on the basics (and maybe even more) and earnestly agree before God Almighty to seek genuine resolution of our differences then we are fools not to share in the unity we have and be witnesses to it at the Altar. God loves love. If He sees it in us He can give us more graces, and this will contribute even further to our unity.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

(Of course, the other problem is that so many zealot RC's and EO's don't really think Anglicans are Christians. To overcome such triumphalist prejudice is a matter of the heart, so that's God's work)

[Fish and Bread]

And Latin Masses in China would certainly be superior to an underground and forbidden Church in a communist nation that practices such things as forced abortions and sterilizations, no?

I agree with you. :)

[Filia Mariae]

We do not advocate ignoring our differences either, but rather acknowledging our unity in Christ through our baptism and faith while trying to resolve our differences.

To me, saying that we should all just have open communions and then we'll be united IS ignoring significant disagreements.

No communion table anywhere on the face of the planet represents 100% concord of the participants, regardless of the claims of those churches who practice closed communion.

Of course, we cannot read the minds and hearts of those who present themselves.


We do not all think alike


Mercifully, that isn't a requirement.


However, if we can all agree on the basics (and maybe even more) and earnestly agree before God Almighty to seek genuine resolution of our differences then we are fools not to share in the unity we have and be witnesses to it at the Altar. God loves love. If He sees it in us He can give us more graces, and this will contribute even further to our unity.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.


I don't think 'the basics' is enough. Even assuming if it is, who gets to define the basics? You're right that an outpouring of love always results in an outpouring of graces. But I don't think love is simply 'being nice.'

(Of course, the other problem is that so many zealot RC's and EO's don't really think Anglicans are Christians. To overcome such triumphalist prejudice is a matter of the heart, so that's God's work)

Any Catholic who believes Anglicans are not Christians is in heresy. Period.

[Thomas2618]

Filia Mariae, thank you for bringing such wonderful clarifications in here. I haven't disagreed with a thing you have said in this forum at all...
You know, I think it'd be great for the East and West to re-unite. Will it happen? Chances are slim and none, at least for anywhere in the near future IMHO.

[higgs2]

The unity Catholics are seeking is not one where we ignore our differences, but rather one where we resolve them.
We already have unity, we're just waiting for y'all to realize it and come to the table with us! :)

[ChessCastle]

If you could not refer to the Holy Father as 'Bennie' I would appreciate it. And Latin Masses in China would certainly be superior to an underground and forbidden Church in a communist nation that practices such things as forced abortions and sterilizations, no?

Very good point.

CC

[InnerPhyre]

(Of course, the other problem is that so many zealot RC's and EO's don't really think Anglicans are Christians. To overcome such triumphalist prejudice is a matter of the heart, so that's God's work)


Where in heavens name would you get an idea like this? From what I can tell, aside from female clergy, there are extremely few differences between orthodox Anglicanism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Certainly fewer differences than between RC and EO

[AlaskaFan]

No, Catholics and Orthodox are closer to each other than either is to Anglicans.

Where in heavens name would you get an idea like this? From what I can tell, aside from female clergy, there are extremely few differences between orthodox Anglicanism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Certainly fewer differences than between RC and EO

[karen freeinchristman]

one day Christians both EOC and RCC will realize that when Christ prayed for His church to be One, it happened, and regardless of how it looks to us, it is still One now (or else Christ's prayers are ineffective- which means we'll all sunk in regards even our salvation!). We should accept that we are One and then try to act like it.

:amen:

[Filia Mariae]

Where in heavens name would you get an idea like this? From what I can tell, aside from female clergy, there are extremely few differences between orthodox Anglicanism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Certainly fewer differences than between RC and EO

What qualifies something as 'orthodox Anglicanism'?

[IowaLutheran]

No, Catholics and Orthodox are closer to each other than either is to Anglicans.

Yes and no. Yes, in terms of viewing Anglicans as a whole, particularly since the 1960s. No, in the sense that there are Anglicans who could walk into a Western Rite Orthodox church and notice only slight differences at most in the liturgy, and would not have to change a single belief, except for the belief that churches affiliated with the Archbishop of Canterbury are part of the visible One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. In other words, there are Anglicans who believe in an all-male priesthood, believe in the inspired nature of the deuterocanonicals, believe in theosis, are willing to proclaim the Nicene Creed without the filoque. I believe these are the "orthodox Anglicans" that have been referred to.

[gtsecc]

What qualifies something as 'orthodox Anglicanism'?

A conservative Anglo-Catholic parish.

My parish, for example, could go over to Rome, or to the EO, with almost no changes.

We would have to change the prayer book to the book of Divine Worship to be Roman, or the Prayer Book or St. Andrew to be EO.

Our liturgy would not change much.

[ContraMundum]

A conservative Anglo-Catholic parish.

My parish, for example, could go over to Rome, or to the EO, with almost no changes.

We would have to change the prayer book to the book of Divine Worship to be Roman, or the Prayer Book or St. Andrew to be EO.

Our liturgy would not change much.

..and furthermore, many of our churches use liturgies that are more in tandem with the ancient liturgies than the Novus Ordo!

[Aymn27]

If you could not refer to the Holy Father as 'Bennie' I would appreciate it. Bennie is my "pet name" for His Holiness - not attacking him here - I do however disagree with his uber-conservative thought (at least as it relates to liturgy)- but that's another thread.


And Latin Masses in China would certainly be superior to an underground and forbidden Church in a communist nation that practices such things as forced abortions and sterilizations, no?As opposed to an English speaking church not underground in a country that practices VOLUNTARY abortion and sterilization?? - oh wait, we wouldn't have those problems if mass were in Latin again right?

I just chose China to serve as an example of how utterly silly it is to think that "unity" must be assented to under Roman terms - which once (and seems to once again be the trend) demanded participation in a service that was not even in the believers native tongue - how diametrically opposed are Latin and Madarin Chinese? But for example's sake, it could be any country, anywhere - afterall, Latin is a dead language.

No thank you to a church that teaches grace in terms of glass jars and doing good works to fill it up --don't sin though or it's all gonna go away - and you'll have to start all over trying to find favor with God.

[Simon_Templar]

The unity Catholics are seeking is not one where we ignore our differences, but rather one where we resolve them.

There will always be differences. This is inevitable.. Look for a second at the catholic church.. the catholic church has an INCREDIBLE variety of different groups within it. Many of them differ WILDLY, in both practice and philosophy. The catholic church does ignore those differences all the time.

Unity can only ever be built on the realization that there are essential beliefs which MUST be agreed upon, and there are beliefs which can be disagreed upon.

The early councils of the churches were held precisely for the purpose of defining the core doctrines which MUST be adhered to in order to be part of the church. The problem is that today, both the orthodox and the catholics have added several doctrines which must be absolutely adhered to in order to be regarded as part of the church. In the Roman Catholic church the doctrine they added originally was papal supremacy, and then later they added the immaculate conception/assumption of Mary, and Papal infallability.

Now.. I'm not saying those things aren't true.. but they were NEVER required in order to be a member of the church. It is absolutely wrong to exclude people from the church based on doctrines which were not included as essential in the creeds of the church.

The Orthodox church, honestly, is even worse. They have made virtually EVERY teaching of the church an essential requirement for membership in the church. They allow no room for difference at all. This is not christian and not loving, its pharisitical.

and on the other hand we have the anglican church which is throwing out even the requirement of the essential core doctrines and reducing christianity to nothingness.

MY KINGDOM FOR SOME REAL MIDDLE GROUND!!!

[pjw]

nvm

[Filia Mariae]

Simon,

I think you make some interesting points, but I think responding to them will probably be judged crossing the line. If you want to discuss them though, feel free to PM me.:)