Once saved, always saved?

[MrsEtienne]

I've been discussing this topic with a friend who believes that once you're saved, you're always saved. I, on the other hand, disagree with her stance. What are your thoughts?

:)

[JonF]

I agree: once saved always saved. Lacking a bible I can’t give good verse support. So I will give a few biblical concepts with out much backup.

-Salvation is not by works.
-God calls those whom he saves.
-Those he calls won’t be snatched out of his hand.
-God won’t be mocked.
-If we assume you can lose your salvation, you would never be able to gain it again (according to Hebrews, about chapter 9 I believe)
-The only one who ever truly knows if you are saved is God, so it is quite possible that people who “lose” their salvation weren’t ever saved in the first place

[JonF]

Grr not having a verse was bothering me: 1Jo 2:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[jad123]

If you beleive in Free Will you must beleive that you can loose your salvation. If I have the choice to accept God's gift then do I not have the choice to turn away from it?

Scripture is clear. You are saved by grace but you must stand firm till the end.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Rom 2:7 indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.
Rom 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,

[seekingpurity047]

Face it, if salvation was by faith + works, then nobody would be saved, and heaven would be very empty. We sin everyday, even if we don't notice it. Some verses to ponder:

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010;&version=47;#fen-ESV-26495a)] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Note: We can't even snatch ourselves from His hand.

Rom. 8:28-30
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.%208;&version=47;#fen-ESV-28125g)] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Note: He sanctifies those whom He calls. Another note, look up the greek for this one, maybe it will be more clear if you can't understand it.

Phil. 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Note: Day of Jesus Christ = our glorification with Him.

There are many more. Think about it logically, how many good works can you do to please an infinitely good God? The logical answer: none.

Ask yourselves this as well: Why do good works? Are we to do good works in order to be saved, or are we to do good works because we are saved, notably, to the glory of God? Well, if you say the former, then you rape God of His glory, therefore, the latter is correct. For it says...

1 Cor. 10:31
Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

To the glory of God,

Randy

[jad123]

Face it, if salvation was by faith + works, then nobody would be saved, and heaven would be very empty. We sin everyday, even if we don't notice it. Some verses to ponder:

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010;&version=47;#fen-ESV-26495a)] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Note: We can't even snatch ourselves from His hand.

Rom. 8:28-30
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.%208;&version=47;#fen-ESV-28125g)] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Note: He sanctifies those whom He calls. Another note, look up the greek for this one, maybe it will be more clear if you can't understand it.

Phil. 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Note: Day of Jesus Christ = our glorification with Him.

There are many more. Think about it logically, how many good works can you do to please an infinitely good God? The logical answer: none.

Ask yourselves this as well: Why do good works? Are we to do good works in order to be saved, or are we to do good works because we are saved, notably, to the glory of God? Well, if you say the former, then you rape God of His glory, therefore, the latter is correct. For it says...

1 Cor. 10:31
Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

To the glory of God,

Randy

OK. Question for you. Can I walk away from salvation? Can I turn my back on the Lord and hand him his gift back?

This is not about works and earning your way to heaven. Accepting the Lord's gift is an action so do you consider that a work? Praying the sinners prayer is an action, is that a work?

[JonF]

Hebrews 6 argues once saved always saved more than anything.

Hebrews 10:26 and 27 is kind of nebulous. Notice it only address knowledge of truth, not salvation. Verse 29 suggest that this is in reference to unbelievers. Also see verse 39.

Context for the Romans verses are important. Romans 2:7,8 are in reference to works (see verse 6), the law (see verse 12) and righteousness (see verse 13). A few verses later Paul concludes no one is righteous (verse 3:10-20, 3:23). Chapter 4 is a preamble for faith. Romans 8 talks about us not being slaves to sin anymore but slaves to righteousness, and we are set from sin and death. He concludes with Romans 10:9.

[BigNorsk]

There are many verses that can be used on both sides of the question of whether on can or cannot lose ones salvation.

I believe that one can. In simple terms it boils down to belief. If you believe today you are saved today, if you do not believe today you are not saved today. I wouldn't worry much about whether you did or didn't believe yesterday other than to realize that if you have believed but now are a disbeliever, it would appear according to scripture than attempting to recall you is just a waste of time.

Of all the different passages used the ones that tip the scale to where I believe it is correct that you can lose your salvation are very seldom used.

It is those passages that talk about the books in heaven.

For instance, we see who are recorded in the book of life, and what happens to those who are not written there.

Revelation 20:12 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 21:25-27 KJV
(25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
(26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those who are saved are written in the book of life, they get to enter the new Jerusalem, if you aren't written there, you are condemned to the lake of fire.

The names have always been there.

Revelation 13:8KJV
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 KJV
(8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

We also see that God's dominion includes those books, that he can remove or blot out a name written there.

Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:28 KJV
(28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5 KJV
(5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It is pretty clearly treated that God has the ability to remove someone from the books.

KJO people even have another.
Revelation 22:19 KJV
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Those not KJO would recognize that God would take away his part from the tree of life. I'm not so sure that changes much the meaning. The tree of life gives a person eternal life. It is difficult to imagine how someone could receive eternal life, that is to be saved, without being able to partake of the tree of life. Especially considering this verse.

Revelation 22:14 KJV
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Note that I've already shown that only those written in the book of life get to enter the city. And here we have those with the right to the tree of life get to enter the city so like I say, the ultimate interpretation gets pretty much to the same place.

Anyway, that's what tips the balance for me, that God can and it would appear in his conversation with Moses, has removed names from the book of life.

Marv

[James1979]

jad123,

Accepting Christ as personal Savior and praying a sinner's prayer is our action and that would be considered works because its something we are doing. These type of methods that have been created are out of the minds of men and it will not get anyone saved.

Salvation is totally 100% God's work. Their is a profession that goes like this "God is waiting for you to give your life to him and surrender all to him so that he'll be your Lord and Saviour"

Well the problem with this is how can someone give their life to God when God first has to give that indiviual eternal life first.
God has showed many pictures of salvation throughout the whole bible but man what some kind of role play in their salvation.

Look at Adam. When God created Adam, Adam had everything inside of his body to be a living being. Adam had a physical heart, water, blood, and many other organs in his body to function. So Adam came to life once God breathe the breath of life into his nostrils and once that happen then the relationship between God and Adam had started. Anything prior to the breathe breath into his nostrils, there was no relationship, no fellowship, no praise, nothing nada between God and Adam.

This is how we are spiritually, we spiritually do not have a heartbeat consisting beating. So therefore God must quicken us through his word and once he has done that, God is now abiding in the believer and the relationship, fellowship and praise is now genuine. The believer will not have to worry about hearing from God "depart from me I never knew you". No one can possible trace actually when they were saved. There is no feeling, no experience that would trigger that we are saved. This is proven in John 3:8, God simply does this activity quietly while it is unnoticed by the indiviual. Later on the believer will realize that he/she is saved because they will see in their lives that they want to do the will of God and it will be their upmost desire to do it. Romans 7:22

[eldermike]

My 2 cents follows:
It actually comes down to understanding God's nature. Is salvation something for my good, or His glory? Am I saved for my benefit, or God's pleasure?

Ezekiel 36 God restores His chosen people, but with an explanation that's an important look into God's nature. EZE 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.

More of God's nature revealed:
Paslms 23:
PS 23:2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
"Makes me", again God's nature is revealed. God will not ask you to lie down in green pasture, He makes you do it.

John explains why He writes His epistles:
1JN 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
So what does He write to confirm this?

1JN 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

"keeps us safe"? "Gives us understanding" Keeps us from the evil one.

Pretty clear when you really study God's nature and not mans nature. God never intended to place His glory, His pleasure in your free will. If God loved you first, then and only then can you love God. Then and only then will He make you lie down, keep you from the evil one, give you understanding and take you home when your time comes. Free will is a biblical concept it's just not connected to salvation in any way shape or form. IMHO.

[eldermike]

My 2 cents follows:
It actually comes down to understanding God's nature. Is salvation something for my good, or His glory? Am I saved for my benefit, or God's pleasure?

Ezekiel 36 God restores His chosen people, but with an explanation that's an important look into God's nature. EZE 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.

More of God's nature revealed:
Paslms 23:
PS 23:2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
"Makes me", again God's nature is revealed. God will not ask you to lie down in green pasture, He makes you do it.

John explains why He writes His epistles:
1JN 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
So what does He write to confirm this?

1JN 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

"keeps us safe"? "Gives us understanding" Keeps us from the evil one.

Pretty clear when you really study God's nature and not mans nature. God never intended to place His glory, His pleasure in your free will. If God loved you first, then and only then can you love God. Then and only then will He make you lie down, keep you from the evil one, give you understanding and take you home when your time comes. Free will is a biblical concept it's just not connected to salvation in any way shape or form. IMHO.

[ronmathison]

If you beleive in Free Will you must beleive that you can loose your salvation. If I have the choice to accept God's gift then do I not have the choice to turn away from it?



I believe Once Saved Aways Saved to be true.

I submit to you all, that WHEN a person uses their FREE-WILL to accept Christ's Holy Spirit,

they FREELY choose to have their will CONFORMED more to Him.


This would in my opinion, amount to their will ALWAYS holding on to Christ,

FOREVER.


"Whoever eats of this bread, WILL LIVE FOREVER"

(not might.)

[ronmathison]

Here are some verses, which I believe support:

Once Saved Always Saved:


Salvation verses (from the Interlinear Greek N.T.)


Matthew 3:12 ... He will cleanse the floor of Him, and WILL GATHER the wheat of Him, into the barn

5:6 Blessed THE hungering and thirsting righteousness, because they SHALL be filled.

11:28-30 Come to Me, all THE labouring and being burdened, and I WILL give REST, you. Take the yoke of Me on you and learn from Me, because meek I am and lowly in heart, and you WILL find rest to the souls of you. the for yoke of Me, pleasant, and the burden of Me light is.

Luke 1:75 .. being DELIVERED to serve Him, in concecration, and righteousness, before Him, ALL THE DAYS of the life of us.

1:79 .. to direct the feet of us, into a way of PEACE

4:18 He has sent me, to heal the broken heart, to preach to captives DELIVERANCE.

6:23 .. behold For, the reward of you, MUCH in heaven.

6:35 .. WILL be the reward of you MUCH, and you WILL be sons of the Most High.

6:48 .. a flood and happening, burst against, the stream, house that, and NOT could shake it, it had been founded for, on THE ROCK.

7:28 I say for to you, greater among born of women, prophet than John the baptist, no one is. The but least in the kingdom of God, GREATER than he is.

7:50 The faith of you, HAS saved you. Go in peace.

8:12 .. believing, they may be SAVED.

9:56 the For Son of man, NOT did come, the souls of men to destroy, but to SAVE.

10:20 .. rejoice but rather that the names of you ARE written, in the heavens.

11:13 .. how much more the Father Of Heaven, WILL give Spirit Holy, to those asking Him?

11:20 .. then came upon you the kingdom of God.

12:6-8 not five sparrows Are sold assaria two? And one of them, not is, having been forgotten before God. But even the hairs of the head of you, all have been numbered. STOP THEN BEING AFRAID. From many sparrows, you differ. I say And to you, everyone who confesses Me, before men, also the Son of man, WILL confess him before the angels of God.

12:12 .. the for Holy Spirit, WILL teach you...

12:32 Stop fearing, little flock, because was pleased the Father of you, to give you the kingdom.

John 1:4 in Him, life was, and the life, was the light of men, and the light in the darkness shines, and, the darkness it, did not overtake.

1:7-8 ..this one came for a witness, that he might witness about the light, that all might believe through Him.

1:9 ..He was the light true, which enlightnens every man coming into the world.

1:12 .. as many as But received Him, He gave to them authority, children of God, to become. .. to those believing into the Name of Him,

1:14 .. of God were born.

1:17 .. And out of the fullness of Him, we all recieved, and grace on top of grace, because the law through Moses was given; Grace and truth through Jesus Christ, came into being.

1:18 God, no one has seen at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that one explains.

1:29-30 .. Behold, the Lamb of God, taking the sin of the world.

1:33 ..this is the, baptising in Spirit Holy.

3:3 .. Jesus and said to him; Truly, truly I say to you, except one recieve birth from above, not he is able to see the kingdom of God.

3:14-18 .. as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so to, be lifted up, must the Son of man, that everyone believing into Him, NOT may perish, but have life-everlasting. so For loved God the world, so as the Son of Him, the only begotten, He gave, that everyone believing into Him, not may perish, but have life-everlasting.

John 3:34 .. not for by measure, gives God the Spirit.

3:36 .. The believing into the Son, has life everlasting.

4:10 .. Jesus and said to her, if you knew the gift of God, and who is The, saying to you, "Give me to drink", you would have asked Him, and He would give you water-living.

4:14 .. who but ever drinks of the water which I will give him, in no way will thirst unto the age, but the water which I will give him, will become in him a fountain of water springing to life everlasting.

5:21 .. even as for the Father raises up the dead, and makes alive, so also the Son whom He wills, He makes alive.

5:24 .. Truly, truly, I say to you, the, the word of me hearing, and believing The having sent me, has life everlasting, and into judgement not comes, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:34 .. these things I say, that you may be saved.

6:27 ..Work not the food perishing, but the food enduring to life everlasting, which the Son of man to you, will give.

6:28 .. they said then to Him, 'What may we do, that we may work the works of God? '

6:29 .. answered Jesus, and said to them, this is the work of God, that you believe into whom sent that One.

6:32 .. the Father of Me, gives to you the bread out of heaven true.

6:33 .. the for bread of God is The, coming down out of heaven, and life giving to the world.

6:35 .. said and to them Jesus, I Am the bread of life. The coming to Me, not at all will hunger, and the believing into Me, in no way will thirst, ever.

6:37 .. All that gives to Me, the Father, to me will come, and he coming to me, in no way I will cast out.

6:40 .. this and is the will of The sending me, that everyone seeing the Son, and believing into Him, should have life everlasting, and will raise up him I, at the last day.

6:44 .. No one is able to come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

6:45 .. It is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Everyone then hearing from the Father, and learning, comes to Me.

[WAB]

Romans 6:23.… “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Romans 11:29.… “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

For those who believe that one may be born-again and become a new creation in Christ Jesus (see 2Cor.5:17) and then at some later time lose their salvation…. the word “eternal” must mean temporary, and the word “gift” must mean loan.
(the above Scriptures are taken from the New King James edition of the Bible, some emphasis added).

W.A.B.

[WAB]

There are many verses that can be used on both sides of the question of whether on can or cannot lose ones salvation.

I believe that one can. In simple terms it boils down to belief. If you believe today you are saved today, if you do not believe today you are not saved today. I wouldn't worry much about whether you did or didn't believe yesterday other than to realize that if you have believed but now are a disbeliever, it would appear according to scripture than attempting to recall you is just a waste of time.

Of all the different passages used the ones that tip the scale to where I believe it is correct that you can lose your salvation are very seldom used.

It is those passages that talk about the books in heaven.

For instance, we see who are recorded in the book of life, and what happens to those who are not written there.

Revelation 20:12 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 21:25-27 KJV
(25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
(26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those who are saved are written in the book of life, they get to enter the new Jerusalem, if you aren't written there, you are condemned to the lake of fire.

The names have always been there.

Revelation 13:8KJV
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 KJV
(8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

We also see that God's dominion includes those books, that he can remove or blot out a name written there.

Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:28 KJV
(28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5 KJV
(5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It is pretty clearly treated that God has the ability to remove someone from the books.

KJO people even have another.
Revelation 22:19 KJV
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Those not KJO would recognize that God would take away his part from the tree of life. I'm not so sure that changes much the meaning. The tree of life gives a person eternal life. It is difficult to imagine how someone could receive eternal life, that is to be saved, without being able to partake of the tree of life. Especially considering this verse.

Revelation 22:14 KJV
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Note that I've already shown that only those written in the book of life get to enter the city. And here we have those with the right to the tree of life get to enter the city so like I say, the ultimate interpretation gets pretty much to the same place.

Anyway, that's what tips the balance for me, that God can and it would appear in his conversation with Moses, has removed names from the book of life.

Marv

















The following is admittedly a bit long; but this issue is vitally important for the Believer to have settled in his/her thinking to have a genuine understanding of God's LOVE for every human.

Revelation 3:5.... (Jesus speaking) "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels."

This verse has produced a number of interesting and even diametrically opposed propositions. One of these, obviously, is that the believer must be an overcomer, or he will surely be blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life. Of course this presupposes that a genuine born-again believer may, at some time, lose his or her salvation.

Or, from the Calvinist perspective, at least some who were predestined to eternal salvation must have their names blotted out if perhaps they were not overcomers, leading to fear and doubt as to their final destiny.

A definition of the word "overcometh" might be appropriate.... This word is a translation of the Greek word nika’o, and means: "to subdue (lit. or fig.):-- conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory." (From Strong’s # 3528).

There are some different takes on who this "overcomer" is to prevail over. Some would say that he/she must "prevail", or "get the victory" over an enemy; and that enemy could be almost anyone. However, Jesus (in Matthew 5:44) says: "... I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" That would seem to eliminate the "conquer the enemy" syndrome, at least if that "enemy" is someone else.

But what if the "enemy" might happen to be "self"? In the very revealing 7th chapter of Romans, Paul starts out by stating that "...the Law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth." But then in verse 4 he goes on to say of his "brethren" that they had "...become dead to the Law by (means of being members of) the Body of Christ..." As Colossians 3:3 puts it... "...ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." Safe! And Secure! And, no longer under the Law of Moses.

However, that same genuine believer is still "in the flesh" and has not had the old sin nature eradicated yet, in spite of the teaching of some that a believer may attain to the position of having an experience of "entire sanctification" which includes the eradication of sin from the Believer’s life. We have had close contact with some who hold to this belief, and although they generally live as believers should, they also are faced with incidents in their lives (and in their thinking processes) that contradict the belief that sin has been removed from their daily experience.

Just one reference will suffice.... When my wife and I were preparing for the foreign mission field in the Portland, Oregon area, we rented a house from a couple who were of the "entire sanctification" persuasion. One time when I went to their house to make a rental payment, the wife came to the door, and she was so flustered, and her face was so red, that I thought she might be having an attack of some sort. Actually, she was; when I asked what was the matter she answered: "That husband of mine! If I wasn’t sanctified I’d hit him over the head with a frying pan!" Obviously, it was an anger attack.

Back in Romans 7.... If one reads verses 13 through 25 with an open mind and after trusting the Holy spirit to illuminate the truth to the innermost being, one cannot escape the fact that even after experiencing the new birth, one still has the old sin nature (OSN) to contend with. In this passage, Paul clearly confesses that, in his flesh, he often sinned against the Lord. Certainly, if that was the case with Paul, it is the case with us as well. And, just as certainly, we must utilize 1 John 1:9 and realize that it is only through The Deliverer, Jesus Christ our Lord, that we can ever experience deliverance from "self." (see verses 24 & 25).

Back to considering just who might be "blotted out," and who will not be blotted out of the book of life.

In the 32nd chapter of Exodus, we read of the deliberate disobedience of "the children of Israel" after their miraculous deliverance from Egypt.

There are some very interesting things recorded in this portion of God’s Word (such as Aaron’s explanation to Moses as to the origin of the golden calf), and we see that except for the fact that Moses intervened on behalf of the Israelites, the LORD would have consumed them in His wrath.

Then, after "the sons of Levi" had slain "about three thousand men" from among those who were mixing idolatry with prescribed worship, Moses returned to the LORD and said: "‘... if You will forgive their sin– but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.’ And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.’" (verses 32,33)

From what Yahweh said, one might conclude that if one who believes he/she is "in Christ" but sins against God at any time subsequent to their being born-again, they face inevitable blotting out of His book. Several things may be noted here...

#1... Moses was confident that his name was already in the book of life.

#2... There is a parallel to the sacrificial love that Moses had for his kinsmen in Romans 9:3, where Paul says: "...I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen (kinsmen, relatives) according to the flesh."


#3... Moses himself was a sinner. He smote the rock twice in the wilderness in his anger against the rebels of Israel, and was forbidden entry to the promised land as a result. (see Numbers 20:7-12). As James 1:20 puts it: "...the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God."
Also, Romans 3:10 refers to Psalm 14:1-3 when we read: "...There is none righteous, no, not one."
And verse 23 (of Rom. 3): "...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." That includes Moses.... and Paul... and you... and me.

#4... Obviously, if the LORD’S statement in Exodus 32:33 referred to an immediate result of having sinned, no one could avoid having their names blotted out. But, Praise God! For those who, prior to the finished work of Christ on Calvary’s cross, put their trust in the coming Messiah, and for those who, since then, have put their trust in Christ, their names remain in the book!

Another issue that comes up quite often is one that is somewhat confusing; and that is, when is one’s name written in the book?
Probably, most Christians would say that their names were written in the book at the time of their being born-again, (or, born-anew). However, that belief leads to at least two problems. One, is that we have already seen that Moses’ name was in the book.... Prior to Calvary.

There was no new birth prior to Christ’s birth, death at Calvary and His resurrection, as the Holy Spirit came upon individuals at His discretion, and often left. David prayed: "Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." (Psalm 51:11). But... In John 6:37 Jesus says: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

And, Hebrews 13:5: "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, ‘I will never leave you norforsake you’"

The word "never" in that verse is the strongest negative in the Greek language. Wuest’s Expanded Translation has: "Let your manner of life be without love of money, being satisfied with your present circumstances. For He himself has said, and the statement is on record, ‘I will not, I will not cease to sustain and uphold you. I will not, I will not, I will not let you down.’"

A second problem that comes up from the belief that one’s name is written in the book at the time of the new birth, is that if one may have his/her name blotted out at a later time, then we need to twist the following Scriptures severely.

Romans 6:23.... "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 11:29.... "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

For those who believe that one may be born-again and become a new creation in Christ Jesus (see 2Cor.5:17) and then at some later time lose their salvation.... the word "eternal" must mean temporary, and the word "gift" must really mean loan.

A further indication as to when the names of people (and I believe all people) were written in the Book of Life is found in Luke 10:20.... ‘"...do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.’"

Here Jesus is speaking to the 70 disciples He sent out (as lambs among wolves); again prior to His death, burial and resurrection and so prior to the introduction of the new birth.

Is there a legitimate, Biblical and logical answer that can reconcile these apparently contradictory positions? I believe there is.

If we include in our thinking 2 Peter 3:9.... "The Lord... is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Or.... 1 Thessalonians 5:9.... "...God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Or.... Psalm 139:16.... "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they were all written..."

Then we may legitimately come to the conclusion that everyone’s name was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, and that only those who refuse to place their faith in the Savior will have their names blotted out of the book.


As 1 Timothy 4:10 says: "...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." The word "especially" is the Greek mal’ista, and means: "in particular" or, "specifically." i.e. Salvation is potential for all, but realized only by those who put their trust in the One and only Savior.

First John 5:4,5.... "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

As we can see, this passage adds "the world" to "self" as that which the true Believer overcomes. The one who has his name blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life is a non-overcomer, a non-believer!

Every true Believer has to admit that we battle, or wage war against, both self and the worldly influences that surround us. That is why the Lord has given us His Word!

AND, that is why the 6th chapter of Ephesians is so vital to spiritual well-being. We can only "... be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might." And that is why we must "Put on the whole armor of God, that you (we) may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle (present tense, i.e. we are not wrestling) against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
"Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

"And take the helmet of salvation; and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God; (note that this is the only offensive weapon) praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints– and for me...." (Ephesians 6:10-19a)


Scriptures from the KJV, the NKJV, Wuest’s Expanded Translation, and the English Standard Version, with emphasis added.
Written by: W.A.B.

P.S. Should have added in the above, that Rev.13:8 and 17:8 occur after the Rapture, and so refer to a whole new population.

[Lynn73]

I've been discussing this topic with a friend who believes that once you're saved, you're always saved. I, on the other hand, disagree with her stance. What are your thoughts?

:)


I agree with your friend. The Bible says that Jesus will lose nothing that belongs to Him. You cannot have eternal life one minute and not have it the next otherwise it isn't eternal. There are many Scriptures both sides uses to support their views and this had been discussed many times so I'll just leave it at that. I suggest the book THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER by Charles Stanley who used to, by the way, believe you could lose your salvation.

[MrsEtienne]

I agree with your friend. The Bible says that Jesus will lose nothing that belongs to Him. You cannot have eternal life one minute and not have it the next otherwise it isn't eternal. There are many Scriptures both sides uses to support their views and this had been discussed many times so I'll just leave it at that. I suggest the book THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER by Charles Stanley who used to, by the way, believe you could lose your salvation.

Here's what prompts me to think otherwise.

Let's say, I'm saved today. Then, a series of events causes me to curse God. I now want nothing to do with Him. I'm a blatant sinner with no remorse, thus no repentance comes from me.

Am I still entitled inheritance of the Kingdom when I am not operating in the character of Christ?

Galatians 5:19-21 says

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[jad123]

I agree with your friend. The Bible says that Jesus will lose nothing that belongs to Him. You cannot have eternal life one minute and not have it the next otherwise it isn't eternal. There are many Scriptures both sides uses to support their views and this had been discussed many times so I'll just leave it at that. I suggest the book THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER by Charles Stanley who used to, by the way, believe you could lose your salvation.

You are right. Jesus will not loose anything that belongs to him. But that does not say we cannot turn and walk away from Christ. Looking at some of the early writings we find that these early church teachers believed that continued obedience was a requirement on the believers part.

For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord hath said, 'Even though ye were gathered together to Me in My very bosom, yet if ye were not to keep My commandments, I would cast you off, and say unto you, 'Depart from Me; I know you not whence ye are, ye workers of iniquity.''" (2 Epistle of Clement, Chapter 4)

Irenaeus (120 to 205 AD), believed that if we performed sinful deeds then God would permanently revoke salvation. He is quoted:
"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."

[Lynn73]

Here's what prompts me to think otherwise.

Let's say, I'm saved today. Then, a series of events causes me to curse God. I now want nothing to do with Him. I'm a blatant sinner with no remorse, thus no repentance comes from me.

Am I still entitled inheritance of the Kingdom when I am not operating in the character of Christ?

Galatians 5:19-21 says

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.





Well, because of the following Scripture, I'd have to question of you truly knew the Lord or not:


1Jo 2:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



I've got a few other Scriptures I was going to share but every time it try to copy and paste them, I get thown off the board and to my desktop icon page.

See Matthew 27:21-23. Here's a group of people whom to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you." If they were saved and lost it, that would be a lie.

1 Cor 6:9-11 True Christians may fall or backslide once in awhile but they won't live a constant, permanent life of the works of the fesh you shared above. If they do, God will discipline them as He did the man who fornicated with his father's wife.

1 Cor 5:1-5 According to this Scripture, this man remained saved but forfeited his physical life.

[knownbeforetime]

How many of your sins were yet future when Christ was crucified? All of them! So it's silly to think that one sin is going to take away your salvation.

Noah had free will. He chose to get on the boat. But did he have the choice to get off? The Bible says that God himself closed the door (Gen. 7:16) and what God closes, no one can open. (Isaiah 22:22, Revelation 3:7) Noah could've hemmed and hawed all he wanted but he wasn't getting off that boat.

Say you were to suddenly decide to curse God. God's not going to let you go because 1) ALL our sins have been forgiven and 2) what God has begun, God will finish.

[jad123]

JOHN 10:28, 29 (http://www.aggelia.com/asv/B40C010.htm#V28)Jesus said "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

No one is does not believe in OSAS believes differently. As long as the sinner remains in Christ, his past sins remain covered and forgiven. If however, this person returns to his former life without Christ, his sins, past and present will be open to the judgement of God. Walk with Christ and He will protect you, you cannot be snatched from Him.

BUT:

2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first. 2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

[Nadach]

Following are the key passages from scripture which are often used to mistakenly claim that salvation can be lost:
"2 Peter 2:20-21 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Many believe that this scripture is referring to apostates. I believe that the apostate condition is in fact a myth, in fact, the term is found nowhere in the bible! The notion that a person can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then completely reject Christ, effectively "booting the Holy Spirit" out so that they are no longer indwelt, is not possible. I believe that the passage is still referring to the false prophets and false teachers described beginning in verse 1 of chapter 2. Looking at this notion of apostasy another way, If a believer were to completely turn his back on Christ, go back to his former, sinful ways, how could he "overcome?" Christ paid it all the first time, dying for our sins on the cross. If we were to accept his righteousness as our own, then shed it, Christ would have to be crucified all over again, and that's not going to happen.

"Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I've met many people in my life who believe that they could lose their salvation, but they have also believed that they could repent again and revert to their saved position. However, if we are to take the position that the term "to fall away" in verse four means to lose one's salvation, then this passage clearly teaches that it is impossible to regain salvation once it is lost.<BR
To better understand this text, we need to recognize what it means to "fall away." It means getting out of step, not getting out of the picture. It is also important to recocnize that the phrase "to renew them again unto repentence," is more accurately translated as "to make them repent as they did at first." Therefore, it is impossible for those what have gotten out of step with the Lord to be taken back to their original repentance - the repentance that brought them to theit position of salvation in the first place. The reason i would be impossible is found at the end of verse six, where we are told that Christ would have to be crucified all over again (not likely!).

Verse nine really clues us in that those being described here are NOT saved. "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation."

Revelation 2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paridise of God."

Those who use this verse to demonstrate the plausability of losing one's salvation hang their hat on one word, "overcometh." Those who serve the Lord faithfully all their lives, the "overcomers," are the only ones who will eat of the tree of life. Yes, the overcomers WILL eat of the tree of life, but overcome what?

The answer can be (and must be) found in Scripture. In 1 John 5:5 we are told exactly who overcomes what. " Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." So now that we know who, verse four of 1 John tells us "what" is overcome: For whatever is born of God overcometh the world, even our faith." So, the overcomers are the believers, and since all that believe are born of God, then all believers are overcomers.

[Nadach]

Sorry I copied the wrong paper. This actually came from the website:

geocities.com/Heartland/1700/losin_it.html

But I believe accordingly. I have other papers that I HAVE written that say much the same. I apologize for the blatant plagiarism and renounce all claims that the above are "My personal ramblings"

Please Forgive.:bow:

[YeshuamySalvation]

Sorry I copied the wrong paper. This actually came from the website:



But I believe accordingly. I have other papers that I HAVE written that say much the same. I apologize for the blatant plagiarism and renounce all claims that the above are "My personal ramblings"

Please Forgive.:bow: Can Salvation be merited by works or is it by grace through faith in Yeshua alone.

Yeshua My Salvation> The only way we can obtain salvation is by being declared to be righteous... by God. And that is precisely how we are "saved." We cannot be fully good no one can. God's plan was to give us eternal life as a gift. "Justification" refers to just that... it's being declared to be not guilty, to be righteous. And it is a deserved declaration - because Yeshua paid our penalty.

Yeshua My Salvation> Here are some of the scriptures used to support the doctrine widely known as the doctrine of Salvation by works - being good to merit salvation ...

Take a look at the Context of Deut 29:22-25:
Future generations of your children who follow you and the foreigner who comes from a distant country will see the plagues of the land and the sicknesses the Lord has inflicted on it. 23 All its soil will be a burning waste of sulfur and salt, unsown, producing nothing, with no plant growing on it, just like the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord demolished in His fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask, 'Why has the Lord done this to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?' 25 Then people will answer, 'It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which He had made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.

Yeshua My Salvation> Clearly this passage is referring to prospering in the land.

29:19-21 - When someone hears the words of this oath, he may bless himself in his mind, thinking, 'I will have peace even though I follow my [own] stubborn heart.' This will lead to the destruction of the well-watered [land] as well as the dry [land]. 20 The Lord will not be willing to forgive him. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that person, and every curse written in this scroll will descend on him. The Lord will blot out his name under heaven, and single him out for harm from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this book of the law.

Yeshua My Salvation> "This will lead to the destruction of the well-weatered land." The "blotting out from under heaven" is physical, it's in referance to the death of the individule.

Let me address some other passages used to support the notion that one has to be good and do a bunch of works to merit Salvation here they are....

Rom 11:22

Rom 8:13

1 Corin.11:29

2 Tim 2:12

Romans 10:38

John 8:51 - I assure you: If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death -- ever!"

Please compare that with John 6:29 - Jesus replied, "This is the work of God: that you believe in the One He has sent."

The "work" that is needed to gain eternal life is believing in Yeshua. If we read John's gospel it is full of texts saying that eternal life is a gift. Lets take a look at the earlier text of John 8: 51... 45, 46

8:45, 46 - Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Who among you can convict Me of sin? If I tell the truth, why don't you believe Me?

Clearly what Yeshua was demanding was that they believe Him.

John 5:24 - "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed ( - "crossed over"-) from death to life.

( - 2 Timothy 2:12 -) Lets see the context of... 2 Timothy 2:12...

1. For if we have died with Him, we will also live with Him.

2. if we endure, we will also reign with Him.

3. if we deny Him, He will also deny us.

4. if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

The outer two go together and refer to justification by faith in Yeshua alone. The inner two refer to rewards earned for faithfulness here.

The context for Rom. 11:22.... Is that of Israel, as a nation, being "cut off" from God's grace because of their lack of faith. Similarly, the Gentiles Paul was writing to in Romans would be "cut off" if they strove to gain right standing before God by works rather than by faith alone. In Romans "salvation" never refers to meriting eternal life - not once. Paul uses "justify/justification" instead.

Take a Look at 1 Cor. 11:29 in context:

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way will be guilty of sin against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 So a man should examine himself; in this way he should eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For whoever eats and drinks without recognizing the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 This is why many are sick and ill among you, and many have fallen asleep. 31 If we were properly evaluating ourselves, we would not be judged, 32 but when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord, so that we may not be condemned with the world.

In this instance, some of those in the church at Corinth were making a (-joke -) of the Lord's supper. Paul says that this was the reason why "many" are getting sick and "many have fallen asleep." "Fallen asleep" represents the death of the person as we know. Paul referred to it as such on more than just one occasion. The point is that God does judge us, and our poor desicions always have consequences behind them. It's not that God pushes us to get back at us for making poor desicions. Nor does he waite for us to messup to snatch our gift of Eternal life which he has given to us freely as a gift of his divine grace.

but rather he disciplines us as his beloved children in an attempt to draw us back into close communion with Him. God treats us like His children, which we are. Children often need discipline.

[Jesusmyfriend]

Ahhhhhhh,

If Jesus has saved you, verses you trying to save yourself by good works, then you are saved. Those that are really saved know this perfectly. So if you still a little doubtful about your salvation you most likely are still trying to earn your salvation. This is also dead works Paul talked about.

[jad123]

I ask anyone here to show me a written teaching by the early church teachers prior to the Reformation that taught OSAS.

Everyone keeps wanting to bring works into this. I do not question my salvation. I believe and I have accepted Christ. There is nothing more that I need to do as long I continue to live in Christ I am saved.

This has been taught from the beginning.

[Lynn73]

BUT:

2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first. 2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.




Ahh, but look a little closer. Are you sure this is saying what you think it is? Think about it. People can, for a time, escape the pollutions of the world by being around Christians or being in church. Those in Jesus' day escaped these things for awhile, didn't they, while they followed Jesus around listening to Him? Does this mean they were actually saved? Not necessarily. One can know the way of righteousness without accepting it or applying it to their lives.


What's happening here is there are people who escape the pollutions of the world for a time because of being around Christ and His disciples or being around Christians and listening to what they have to say. They are being told the way of righteousness, it never says they accept it. So they find out the way of righteousness, yet in the end they turn from it, reject it and never accept it. It's the same as the Scripture about the dog returning to his own vomit which you left out of those verses. It's in verse 22. There was never a change in the life, the dog is still a dog and the pig still a pig. The dog returns to his vomit and the pig to her wallowing in the mire. When did Jesus ever call His own a dog or a pig? We are His sheep. If you look at these verses closer you can see that this is not a saved person but a person who heart the way of truth, escaped worldy pollutions for a time, and in the end rejected that truth and went back to their wallowing in the mire. There is NO change, they are NOT born again.

[Lynn73]

I ask anyone here to show me a written teaching by the early church teachers prior to the Reformation that taught OSAS.

Everyone keeps wanting to bring works into this. I do not question my salvation. I believe and I have accepted Christ. There is nothing more that I need to do as long I continue to live in Christ I am saved.

This has been taught from the beginning.

You could not save yourself, what makes you think you can keep yourself? Salvation is a gift. If it can be lost, it ceases to be a gift, imho. Ephesians 2:8-9

[jad123]

You could not save yourself, what makes you think you can keep yourself? Salvation is a gift. If it can be lost, it ceases to be a gift, imho. Ephesians 2:8-9


Who said anything about saving myself? You are right it is a gift and a gift can be lost or given back.

[jad123]

To further support my point that the early church did not teach OSAS.

Tertullian (140 to 230 CE) was the elder in the church at Carthage, North Africa. He wrote in his book "On Repentance," Chapter 6: "Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

Cyprian (200 to 258 CE) was an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa. Referring to Matthew 10:22, he wrote in his book "Unity of the Church," Sec. 21: "It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."

It was Calvin that brought this kind of thinking into Christianity not Jesus.

[YeshuamySalvation]

You could not save yourself, what makes you think you can keep yourself? Salvation is a gift. If it can be lost, it ceases to be a gift, imho. Ephesians 2:8-9 Good post Lynn73!!

James chapter 2 is a chapter in scripture thats completely taken out of context by those that believe that you need a combination of faith plus works to merit salvation, ive wrote extensively on chapter two of James in the past!!!

This is how i see James chapter 2.....


Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath reason to glory, but not before God.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth in Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness,

James 2:24 Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Are these passages contradicting? Not at all if we keep chapter 2 of James in context there is no such contradiction.

Now the type of faith that James is reffering to is not a saving faith "in regards to eternal life" but rather that our faith can be made visible or effective by works. Abraham believed God and was called a believer before he did any works of righteousness... Now the Justification that James talks about in (chapter 2) is not the "Justification" of Salvation by grace through faith alone apart from any works as scripture teaches, But rather the validation of his profession of faith before men. Men do not understand nor do they know the hearts of other men only God does.

Thus the only way or rather evidence of a true faith is a menifestation of that so called professed faith. However, God does know our hearts. If this passage is understood as proof text that salvation could be merited by faith and works together, it would contradict a huge portion of the scriptures.

James never mentiones that works are required to gain eternal life we recieve eternal life by faith alone in Yeshua. What most people do is that they try to redefine "faith" by purposely making it include works by saying that we are saved by Faith in Christ and something else. Then when asked, most would say they don't mean that, but that is exactely what they are implying or rather proposing.

So when James speaks about a faith that is dead he is in no wise speaking about a faith that does not exist or is not real (as some may assume), certainly if a person is "dead" it does not mean he is not real, so James was not talking about an "unreal" or (fake/false) faith he was talking about a faith that was not put into practice which was a dead faith.

The fact that someone is dead means that there breath is gone, thus when faith has no works it's power is "gone" but the faith remains, powerless though. However, Faith only comes to life as we produce good deeds. Faith dies though when we fail to do so. In this chapter James was not questioning the faith of the believers, He was questioning the effectiveness and usefulness of there faith. These were saved believers that James wrote to if i may add, they were already saved from (the lake of fire - second death). The greek word (Sozo) in James chapter 2 is used to show salvation in life sanctification - not justification before God.

James talks about both Justification by faith and Justification by works.....

much like the illustration he made about the one person who saw a hungry person in need of food and clothing. The person that saw the hungry person was already saved. But his faith to serve was useless because of his inability to save the needy person, he needed works to save the needy person. So to make it simple his faith was in regards to saving someone else, it was not in regards to whether he was saved from the second death or lost his salvation along the way, that is not what James talks about at all.

The justfication by works that saves mentioned in the book of James is when the believer actually helps that person in need. That is righteousness that saves it's justification by works. But it does not save from the second death, we need Yeshua to do that for us.. Simply by faith in Yeshua can we be saved from the second death not by any works.

To be declared righteous before God, and to have all my sins forgiven, and to gain eternal life, all i need is faith alone in Yeshua that is called justification by faith alone in the Messiah.


Blessings...

[eldermike]

Good post Lynn73!!

James chapter 2 is a chapter in scripture thats completely taken out of context by those that believe that you need a combination of faith plus works to merit salvation, ive wrote extensively on chapter two of James in the past!!!

This is how i see James chapter 2.....


Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath reason to glory, but not before God.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth in Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness,

James 2:24 Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Are these passages contradicting? Not at all if we keep chapter 2 of James in context there is no such contradiction.

Now the type of faith that James is reffering to is not a saving faith "in regards to eternal life" but rather that our faith can be made visible or effective by works. Abraham believed God and was called a believer before he did any works of righteousness... Now the Justification that James talks about in (chapter 2) is not the "Justification" of Salvation by grace through faith alone apart from any works as scripture teaches, But rather the validation of his profession of faith before men. Men do not understand nor do they know the hearts of other men only God does.

Thus the only way or rather evidence of a true faith is a menifestation of that so called professed faith. However, God does know our hearts. If this passage is understood as proof text that salvation could be merited by faith and works together, it would contradict a huge portion of the scriptures.

James never mentiones that works are required to gain eternal life we recieve eternal life by faith alone in Yeshua. What most people do is that they try to redefine "faith" by purposely making it include works by saying that we are saved by Faith in Christ and something else. Then when asked, most would say they don't mean that, but that is exactely what they are implying or rather proposing.

So when James speaks about a faith that is dead he is in no wise speaking about a faith that does not exist or is not real (as some may assume), certainly if a person is "dead" it does not mean he is not real, so James was not talking about an "unreal" or (fake/false) faith he was talking about a faith that was not put into practice which was a dead faith.

The fact that someone is dead means that there breath is gone, thus when faith has no works it's power is "gone" but the faith remains, powerless though. However, Faith only comes to life as we produce good deeds. Faith dies though when we fail to do so. In this chapter James was not questioning the faith of the believers, He was questioning the effectiveness and usefulness of there faith. These were saved believers that James wrote to if i may add, they were already saved from (the lake of fire - second death). The greek word (Sozo) in James chapter 2 is used to show salvation in life sanctification - not justification before God.

James talks about both Justification by faith and Justification by works.....

much like the illustration he made about the one person who saw a hungry person in need of food and clothing. The person that saw the hungry person was already saved. But his faith to serve was useless because of his inability to save the needy person, he needed works to save the needy person. So to make it simple his faith was in regards to saving someone else, it was not in regards to whether he was saved from the second death or lost his salvation along the way, that is not what James talks about at all.

The justfication by works that saves mentioned in the book of James is when the believer actually helps that person in need. That is righteousness that saves it's justification by works. But it does not save from the second death, we need Yeshua to do that for us.. Simply by faith in Yeshua can we be saved from the second death not by any works.

To be declared righteous before God, and to have all my sins forgiven, and to gain eternal life, all i need is faith alone in Yeshua that is called justification by faith alone in the Messiah.


Blessings...

Good post!

I can only add that James was writing to the already saved scattered believers. (JAS 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.)
If one sees James as a pastor, which he was, his letter becomes encouragment to the saints as they face certain trials. But James starts out with the outcome assured.

[Lynn73]

Thus the only way or rather evidence of a true faith is a menifestation of that so called professed faith. However, God does know our hearts. If this passage is understood as proof text that salvation could be merited by faith and works together, it would contradict a huge portion of the scriptures




That's it right there.

[seekingpurity047]

OK. Question for you. Can I walk away from salvation? Can I turn my back on the Lord and hand him his gift back?

This is not about works and earning your way to heaven. Accepting the Lord's gift is an action so do you consider that a work? Praying the sinners prayer is an action, is that a work?

You can't walk away from salvation, because salvation is eternal. Now, if you suddenly "walk away from salvation" in your way of saying it, you aren't actually walking away form salvation at all. Instead, you are walking away from what you thought was salvation. If you walk away from the faith, you were never saved, for it says...

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Indeed, you will argue that this involves anti-christs. So, that begs the question: What is an anti-christ? Well, it literally means anybody who is against Christ. So, if you walk away from the faith (for lack of a better term), you are, therefore, an anti-christ just like every other unbeliever on the face of the earth. And, indeed, every unbeliever is an anti-christ, for it says...

Rom. 8:5-8
5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Praise God for these truths!

To the glory of God,

Randy

[Lynn73]

How much plainer can it get than God saying in His word that if people go out from us it's because they weren't part of us to start with and that they went out so we would know they were never truly part of us? That's about as clear and plain as you can get imho.

[seekingpurity047]

Oh, and to add two more cents, perhaps a dollar even: Anybody who doesn't believe in once saved always saved simply doesn't understand the doctrine, that's all. Think about it. Here are some general topics against the doctrine.

Phil 2:12
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Note: this argument is dead, simply because they take the verse out of context and totally ignore the following verse, which states:

Phil 2:13
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

God does the work initially, we do not, for we can't possibly contribute anything to our salvation.

Another one:

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Face it, interpret scripture with scripture. Do Paul and James contradict eachother? Certainly not, for the bible is inerrant. Simply put, this is what it means: Sure, faith is dead without works, I believe it, for if we did not change when we came to faith in Jesus Christ, we will not produce works, hence our never being saved in the first place. This verse can be interpreted with the verse that i previously stated. If no works are being produced, then clearly one is not saved, because one did not change his mind, or for better ways of putting it, repent (and repent does literally mean to change one's mind. Greek source: metanoya [spelling may be off, forgive me]) So obviously faith without works is dead! But same with works without faith. Look at my previous post for further reference concerning that comment.

This all not to mention the context that James is speaking. James is also talking about when we are in public with others. We should do good works so taht we may be justified according to OTHER PEOPLE, not according to God.

To the glory of God,

Randy

[jad123]

You can't walk away from salvation, because salvation is eternal. Now, if you suddenly "walk away from salvation" in your way of saying it, you aren't actually walking away form salvation at all. Instead, you are walking away from what you thought was salvation. If you walk away from the faith, you were never saved, for it says...

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Indeed, you will argue that this involves anti-christs. So, that begs the question: What is an anti-christ? Well, it literally means anybody who is against Christ. So, if you walk away from the faith (for lack of a better term), you are, therefore, an anti-christ just like every other unbeliever on the face of the earth. And, indeed, every unbeliever is an anti-christ, for it says...

Rom. 8:5-8
5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Praise God for these truths!

To the glory of God,

Randy

Again, show me somewhere before the reformation the this was taught.

[jad123]

Oh, and to add two more cents, perhaps a dollar even: Anybody who doesn't believe in once saved always saved simply doesn't understand the doctrine, that's all. Think about it. Here are some general topics against the doctrine.

Phil 2:12
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Note: this argument is dead, simply because they take the verse out of context and totally ignore the following verse, which states:

Phil 2:13
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

God does the work initially, we do not, for we can't possibly contribute anything to our salvation.

Another one:

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Face it, interpret scripture with scripture. Do Paul and James contradict eachother? Certainly not, for the bible is inerrant. Simply put, this is what it means: Sure, faith is dead without works, I believe it, for if we did not change when we came to faith in Jesus Christ, we will not produce works, hence our never being saved in the first place. This verse can be interpreted with the verse that i previously stated. If no works are being produced, then clearly one is not saved, because one did not change his mind, or for better ways of putting it, repent (and repent does literally mean to change one's mind. Greek source: metanoya [spelling may be off, forgive me]) So obviously faith without works is dead! But same with works without faith. Look at my previous post for further reference concerning that comment.

This all not to mention the context that James is speaking. James is also talking about when we are in public with others. We should do good works so taht we may be justified according to OTHER PEOPLE, not according to God.

To the glory of God,

Randy

In all respect I believe it to be the other way around. This bogus doctrine was never taught until Calvin. This is a simple fact. No one has ever been able to show differently.

[Lynn73]

It doesn't matter what Calvin taught or what was taught before or after the Reformation or whatever. It matters what the Bible teaches and I believe it teaches that once a person is truly saved, they remain that way.

[jad123]

It doesn't matter what Calvin taught or what was taught before or after the Reformation or whatever. It matters what the Bible teaches and I believe it teaches that once a person is truly saved, they remain that way..

Oh come on. :scratch:
The Apostles didn't teach it and the early christians didn't teach it. It is a Calvin teaching and nothing more.

[Lynn73]

Sorry it's what I believe the Bible teaches. Jesus will lose NOTHING that belongs to Him and I belong to Him.

[knownbeforetime]

In all respect I believe it to be the other way around. This bogus doctrine was never taught until Calvin. This is a simple fact. No one has ever been able to show differently.

Oh come on. :scratch:
The Apostles didn't teach it and the early christians didn't teach it. It is a Calvin teaching and nothing more.Phillipians 1:6 - "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun and a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

What He opens, no one can shut.
What He closes, no one can open.
What He begins, no one can stop or finish.
What He saves, no one can take back.

These are Biblical concepts!

[Lynn73]

Yeah! The early Christians did teach it because it's in the Bible and they're the ones who began putting the word of God down in written form.

[MrsEtienne]

Thanks for enlightening me

[ronmathison]

I thought I'd give y'all some good OSAS verses from Romans:

(from the Greek interlinear New Testament)



Romans 1:16

not for I am ashamed of the gospel of Christ, power for God it is, into salvation, to everyone believing.


3:20

..because by works of law, not will be justified, all flesh before Him. through for law, full knowledge of sin, now but without law, a righteousness os God, has been revealed, being witnessed by the law, and by the prophets, a righteousness, and of God, via faith, of Jesus Christ, to all, and upon all, those believing.


3:28

of works? No, but through a law of faith. we conclude then, by faith, to be justified a man, without works of law.


4:15

the for law, wrath works out. where for not is law, neither transgression.


4:24-25

..also for us, to whom it is going to be counted, to those believing, on The, having raised the Jesus, the Lord of us, out of dead, Who was delivered for the offenses of us, and was raised for the justification of us.


5:1-

having been justified then by faith, peace we have, with God, through the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, through Whom, also, the access we have had, by faith, into the grace this, in which we stand, and boast, on the hope of glory, of God.


5:5

..hope not does put to shame, for the love of God, has been poured out in the hearts of us, through Spirit Holy, given to us. yet for Christ, being us weak, according to time, for un-Godly ones, died.


5:8-9

commends but the of Himself love, to us, God, that yet sinners being us, Christ for us, died. much then more, having been justified now by the blood of Him, we shall be saved through Him, from the wrath. if for enemies being, we were reconciled to God, through the death of the Son of Him, by much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved by the life of Him.

5:15

..the free gift..


5:17

the but free gift, of many offenses, to justification. if for by the of the one offense, death reigned, through te one, much more those, the abundance of the grace, and of the gift of righteousness receiving, in life will reign through the One, Jesus Christ.

[Lpe04]

Once saved always saved?

:)

Yes! The more I study the Word of God and walk with Him the more this truly becomes a reality. Salvation belongs to God and is a gift of God through a one time faith in His Son.

Eph. 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

Eph. 1:13-14
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal ("you were sealed", KJV), the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."

[WAB]

How many of your sins were yet future when Christ was crucified? All of them! So it's silly to think that one sin is going to take away your salvation.

Noah had free will. He chose to get on the boat. But did he have the choice to get off? The Bible says that God himself closed the door (Gen. 7:16) and what God closes, no one can open. (Isaiah 22:22, Revelation 3:7) Noah could've hemmed and hawed all he wanted but he wasn't getting off that boat.

Say you were to suddenly decide to curse God. God's not going to let you go because 1) ALL our sins have been forgiven and 2) what God has begun, God will finish.

I have believed in OSAS for many years, and have written about it; but this is the first time in my experience that Noah's experience was shown to parallel the reality of OSAS.

Well done!

[knownbeforetime]

I have believed in OSAS for many years, and have written about it; but this is the first time in my experience that Noah's experience was shown to parallel the reality of OSAS.

Well done!Thank You! But I must credit Chuck Missler (http://www.khouse.org) with the idea...

[ronmathison]

Praise God for OSAS, eh?


Here's some verses from Acts,

and I feel that it's pretty clear,

what the verses are talking aboot:


(from the Greek interlinear New Testament)

Acts 2:21-22

and it will be, everyone, whoever calls on the Name of Lord, will be saved.

10:43

..to this One, all the prophets witness forgivness of sins, to receive, through the Name of Him, everyone believing into Him.

11:14

in and beginning me to speak, fell the Spirit Holy on them, as also on us, at first.

13:38-39

known, therefore, let it be to you, men, brothers, that through this One, to
you, forgivness of sins is announced.
and from all things, which, not you could, by the law of moses, be justified,
in this One, everyone believing, is justified.

13:48-49

.. hearing, and thenations rejoiced, and glorified the word of the lord,
and believed, as many as were appointed, to life eternal.

15:10-11

Now then, why do you tempt God,
to put a yoke on the neck of the disciples, which neither the fathers of us,
nor we were able to bear?
But through the grace of Lord Jesus Christ,
we believe to be saved.

16: 31-32

..sirs, what me must do, that I may be saved?
they and said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and you will be saved.

20:32

And I commend you brothers, to God,
and to the word of grace of Him, being able to build up, and
to give you inheritance, among those having been snactified, all.

26:18

..to open the eyes of them, and to turn from darkness into light, and the
authority of Satan into God, to receive them forgivness of sins, and a lot
among those being sanctified, by faith, into Me.

26:22-23

I stand witnessing to small, and also to great, nothing else, than saying what
both the prophets said, being about to happen, and Moses,

if to suffer the Christ, if first by a resurrection of dead,
a light He is going to announce to the people,
and to the nations.

[seekingpurity047]

.

Oh come on. :scratch:
The Apostles didn't teach it and the early christians didn't teach it. It is a Calvin teaching and nothing more.

mmm.... Ever heard of Augustine? Might I just tell you that Paul wrote those things in the bible, totally inspired by the Holy Spirit. Are you going to totally deny what the apostles said continuously in the Bible concerning Faith alone? Just because the Roman Catholics don't accept, it doesn't make it wrong. This is what the Bible teaches. But yes, for pre-reformation people. indeed, I know of at least one to mention, and that would be Augustine. Interesting... umm... yah... there goes your theory of "these were never thought of before calvin and luther".

To the glory of God,

Randy

[seekthetruth909]

I've been discussing this topic with a friend who believes that once you're saved, you're always saved. I, on the other hand, disagree with her stance. What are your thoughts?

:)

If you read James 2:14 he talks of faith without deeds and asks "Can such faith save you? The implication is that although we are saved by faith, faith without deeds cannot save us. He goes on to say that belief is not enough, and even the demons believe in Christ.

So just believing in Christ does not save us. If we have not been completely transformed by faith, we were never saved in the first place. Real faith will change us completely, causing us to pursue good deeds. If this is true, “once saved always saved,” becomes irrelevant. Either we lose our salvation, or we never had it to begin with. The end result is the same.

There were a few postings the last few months; one was titled "Why are Christians no different than the rest of the world?" It showed statistics proving that most Christians are no different than non-Christians and have not been transformed. Does this mean most Christians are not saved? In another post someone claimed that only about 1% of Christians are saved. I don’t agree with this, but it gives us something to think about, concerning our commitment to Christ.

God Bless

http://www.christianforums.com/t2554295-the-failure-of-christianity-in-america.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801065410/qid=1139790494/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1119057-6967933?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801065410/qid=1139790494/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1119057-6967933?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

James 2

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

[Kepha]

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010;&version=47;#fen-ESV-26495a)] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


I hope you guys dont mind my imput here on this verse, but to me it is easy to see this passage when combined with other Scripture as meaning that those who have been given to Christ, are only the Christians who are in a state of Grace, and obeying the will of God at that point in time and therefore cannot be snatched from the Father's hand.

It isnt saying that because you have believed once with all your heart, that you will always be saved forever and ever.

I respectfully will not debate though since I am just a visiter.

Thank you. :)

[MbiaJc]

I've been discussing this topic with a friend who believes that once you're saved, you're always saved. I, on the other hand, disagree with her stance. What are your thoughts?

:)

Can you loose your natural birth? Course not, neither can you loose your spititual birth.

[RichardT]

No , Once saved not always saved... Because there was once this guy who was saved and born again at my church , and now he's gone... He denied the faith , sent awfull emails to the pasture , and pays 1000$ a week on hookers now...

[eldermike]

Mankind does not love, God loves. (Read all of 1 John) We are instruments for God's love, it's His name that has been defamed and His love that gets the credit, the honor and the glory for you and me. OSNAS wrongly gives you credit and honor for staying saved. That's enough to reject it flat out. The bible teaches not one single thing about mans glory, mans credit, man honor. It's about God, not us.
The bible teaches on grace, apart from God there is no love. God loved you first. If a man does not love He does not love God and therefore is not saved. If He loves God and his brother He has the love of God in Him and is saved. Satan has no power over God, the saved are saved forever. God's love saved you and me. Many people quote John 3:16 and quickly skip over the grace part. "For God so LOVED". Love saves, you don't have it, you never have had it, God loves others through you. He does not give you love to give away, He keeps it, He is the love you wrongly think you are giving to others. God is love.

We are His.

OSNAS assumes He is ours. Think on that.

You will struggle with this doctrine until God reveals to you How much He loves you. Pray for that knowledge.

[RichardT]

Mankind does not love, God loves. (Read all of 1 John) We are instruments for God's love, it's His name that has been defamed and His love that gets the credit, the honor and the glory for you and me. OSNAS wrongly gives you credit and honor for staying saved. That's enough to reject it flat out. The bible teaches not one single thing about mans glory, mans credit, man honor. It's about God, not us.
The bible teaches on grace, apart from God there is no love. God loved you first. If a man does not love He does not love God and therefore is not saved. If He loves God and his brother He has the love of God in Him and is saved. Satan has no power over God, the saved are saved forever. God's love saved you and me. Many people quote John 3:16 and quickly skip over the grace part. "For God so LOVED". Love saves, you don't have it, you never have had it, God loves others through you. He does not give you love to give away, He keeps it, He is the love you wrongly think you are giving to others. God is love.

We are His.

OSNAS assumes He is ours. Think on that.

You will struggle with this doctrine until God reveals to you How much He loves you. Pray for that knowledge.

This just dosn't make sense because this guy at my church is gone....

[vincejohn]

You are saved if you are born again, a new creation, conscious of all sin where as before you wernt and didnt care this is the sign of the Holy Spirit. This once saved always saved stuff is very dangerous, it can have the effect of you becoming slack lazy. YHWH hates lazy people.

[RichardT]

You are saved if you are born again, a new creation, conscious of all sin where as before you wernt and didnt care this is the sign of the Holy Spirit. This once saved always saved stuff is very dangerous, it can have the effect of you becoming slack lazy. YHWH hates lazy people.

agreed , we should always stay on fire for the Lord.

[bannaboat101]

I've been discussing this topic with a friend who believes that once you're saved, you're always saved. I, on the other hand, disagree with her stance. What are your thoughts?

:)
I disagree with once saved always saved

God says in the bible that you can lose your salvation but you can keep from losing it. If you let satan take it than you can't get it back. I know what it says it in the bible I just don't remember where but it is just my opinion

[vincejohn]

ty Richard hope your having a marvelous day sir.

[eldermike]

This just dosn't make sense because this guy at my church is gone....

He may never have been there to start with. What we have in Christ is attractive to others, but it's not God they are with, it's us, many fall away from us because the world is also attractive. We can't save them, only God can do that. Your grief over your friend is evidence of your salvation and God's love in you. Praise God!

[Lynn73]

No , Once saved not always saved... Because there was once this guy who was saved and born again at my church , and now he's gone... He denied the faith , sent awfull emails to the pasture , and pays 1000$ a week on hookers now...

That doesn't prove you can lose your salvation. It proves He was never one of us to start with. If he was he would have stayed. Backslidden for awhile maybe, but he wouldn't have permanently left.

1Jo 2:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[seekingpurity047]

That doesn't prove you can lose your salvation. It proves He was never one of us to start with. If he was he would have stayed. Backslidden for awhile maybe, but he wouldn't have permanently left.

1Jo 2:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Amen.

[RichardT]

ya , i'm also going to believe in OSAS simply because it's more protestant than OSNAS... And protestantism is cool...

[vincejohn]

It is not for us to know all the mind of God. We know God is merciful ,more than us..how can we say a brother or sister in Jesus who slides away will never be accepted back, this is evil and arrogant of anyone to say because you sinned and gone bad youll burn forever....the prodigal son springs to mind formely a good jew who blew his money on debauchery then was accepted back with a gold ring. Read what Jesus has to say not Paul
''All sins will be foregiven man except the sin against the Holy Spirit'' paraphrase. This teaching started somewhere and its bad it can scare a lot of people away.....who started this saying its not in the Bible.

[rosiecotton]

It is not for us to know all the mind of God. We know God is merciful ,more than us..how can we say a brother or sister in Jesus who slides away will never be accepted back, this is evil and arrogant of anyone to say because you sinned and gone bad youll burn forever....the prodigal son springs to mind formely a good jew who blew his money on debauchery then was accepted back with a gold ring. Read what Jesus has to say not Paul
''All sins will be foregiven man except the sin against the Holy Spirit'' paraphrase. This teaching started somewhere and its bad it can scare a lot of people away.....who started this saying its not in the Bible.

Yes, it is in the Bible, Jesus said it....
"Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
Matthew 12:31

[Lynn73]

ya , i'm also going to believe in OSAS simply because it's more protestant than OSNAS... And protestantism is cool...

No offense but you should believe it if the Bible teaches it, not because it's "Protestant" and "cool." :wave:

Really that Scripture I quoted in 1 John 2:19 couldn't get much clearer. If people are real Christians they'll stay, if they aren't they'll eventually leave.

[lismore]

I was wondering about this OSAS issue a time ago. The Lord showed me in the life of King Saul............you know Saul turned to doing a lot of wicked things. In the end he went to the witch of Endor who was a spiritualist (a very wicked thing in the bible).

1 Sam 28:

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."


Samuel said to Saul that tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. This shows that King Saul did not have eternal salvation taken from him even though he had fallen and sinned many times. He and Samuel are together with the Lord.

:)

[Cary.Melvin]

That doesn't prove you can lose your salvation. It proves He was never one of us to start with. If he was he would have stayed. Backslidden for awhile maybe, but he wouldn't have permanently left.

1Jo 2:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

It appears that people that hold to the teaching Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) interpret the "they were not of us" in 1 John 2:19 to mean that "they were not of us" with respect to regeneration or justification.

But could it not be easily said that "they were not of us" in other respects than that is interpreted by people that hold to the OSAS belief?

In fact Saint Augustine interpreted the "they were not of us" was in respect to their election or predestination to glory (full and final salvation). Which means that they were true Christians with respect to having been predestined to grace (to enter into the Christian life), but did not have the gift to persevere in the faith.



CHAP. 20 [IX.]--SOME ARE CHILDREN OF GOD ACCORDING TO GRACE TEMPORALLY RECEIVED, SOME ACCORDING TO GOD'S ETERNAL FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Nor let it disturb us that to some of His children God does not give this perseverance. Be this far from being so, however, if these were of those who are predestinated and called according to His purpose,--who are truly the children of the promise. For the former, while they live piously, are called children of God; but because they will live wickedly, and die in that impiety, the foreknowledge of God does not call them God's children. For they are children of God whom as yet we have not, and God has already, of whom the Evangelist John says, "that Jesus should die for that nation, and not for that nation only, but that also He should gather together in one the children of God which were scattered abroad;" and this certainly they were to become by believing, through the preaching of the gospel. And yet before this had happened they had already been enrolled as sons of God with unchangeable stedfastness in the memorial of their Father. And, again, there are some who are called by us children of God on account of grace received even in temporal things, yet are not so called by God; of whom the same John says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us, because if they had been of us they would, no doubt, have continued with us." He does not say, "They went out from us, but because they did not abide with us they are no longer now of us;" but he says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us,"--that is to say, even when they appeared among us, they were not of us. And as if it were said to him, Whence do you prove this? he says, "Because if they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us." It is the word of God's children; John is the speaker, who was ordained to a chief place among the children of God. When, therefore, God's children say of those who had not perseverance, "They went out from us, but they were not of us," and add, "Because if they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us," what else do they say than that they were not children, even when they were in the profession and name of children? Not because they simulated righteousness, but because they did not continue in it. For he does not say, "For if they had been of us, they would assuredly have maintained a real and not a feigned righteousness with us;" but he says, "If they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us." Beyond a doubt, he wished them to continue in goodness. Therefore they were in goodness; but because they did not abide in it,--that is, they did not persevere unto the end,--he says, They were not of us, even when they were with us,--that is, they were not of the number of children, even when they were in the faith of children; because they who are truly children are foreknown and predestinated as conformed to the image of His Son, and are called according to His purpose, so as to be elected. For the son of promise does not perish. but the son of perdition.

[Lynn73]

However you choose to look at it. The Lord answered this question for me a long time ago. I believe the term "not of us" means not Christian or not saved period.

[eldermike]

It appears that people that hold to the teaching Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) interpret the "they were not of us" in 1 John 2:19 to mean that "they were not of us" with respect to regeneration or justification.

But could it not be easily said that "they were not of us" in other respects than that is interpreted by people that hold to the OSAS belief?

In fact Saint Augustine interpreted the "they were not of us" was in respect to their election or predestination to glory (full and final salvation). Which means that they were true Christians with respect to having been predestined to grace (to enter into the Christian life), but did not have the gift to persevere in the faith.

Partial, initial, final salvation is a whole other subject. The bible teaches "born again", we call it saved. Peter wrote this:
1 PE 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
1PE 1:25 but the word of the Lord stands forever."

Two things are important here. First; the second birth is forever. Second; It's Gods word that we follow as perfectly as we can. Just like Augustine sometimes we get it right, sometimes we get it wrong.

[Cary.Melvin]

Just for clarification,

Do people that believe in OSAS say that once one becomes born again (however you define that. For me, whoever has been baptised has been born again), that they they no longer have the free will to reject God's gift of salvation? You can't change your mind?

[jad123]

Just for clarification,

Do people that believe in OSAS say that once one becomes born again (however you define that. For me, whoever has been baptised has been born again), that they they no longer have the free will to reject God's gift of salvation? You can't change your mind?

That is how I understand the arguement for OSAS. My issue more than anything is this goes against the teaching of free will and that I can find no evidence of this teaching prior to the Reformation.

[seekingpurity047]

Just for clarification,

Do people that believe in OSAS say that once one becomes born again (however you define that. For me, whoever has been baptised has been born again), that they they no longer have the free will to reject God's gift of salvation? You can't change your mind?

First off, that emboldened statement is incorrect. We are born again when we come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, and in order to do that, we need to "repent and believe the gospel." (Mk. 1:15) And repent means to change the mind. Change our minds toward sin and toward the gospel. So, in order to believe the gospel, one needs to be granted repentance by the Almighty God of the Universe.

If you "change your mind" back to your old ways, then you were never saved in the first place. 1 John speaks of this pretty clearly that "they were not of us".


My issue more than anything is this goes against the teaching of free will and that I can find no evidence of this teaching prior to the Reformation.


I have dealt with this issue in a prior thread/post, quite possibly here. I told you before, there is Augustine who taught this, not to mention... Jesus, Paul, Peter, Matthew, James, John, just to name a few, ya know.

To the glory of God,

Randy

[jad123]

First off, that emboldened statement is