The Brutal Stand of Non-Violence

[Rebirth In Flames]

(I posted this in General Theology and it's being shunned, lol.. so I thought I'd try my luck here.. enjoy!)

"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

“The badge of the violent is his weapon, spear, sword or rifle. God is the shield of the non-violent.”
-Mahatma Gandhi

Two methods of resolution have graced our history books with the passionate blood of those who have taken a bold stand for what they believed in, as well as the lives of the innocent who in their complacency and laziness, claimed neutrality. Many believe as our society and media seem to glorify, that violence to some degree is a means to an end, if that end is democratically judged as just and aiming towards the ultimate good of humanity. Contrary to that train of thought, I believe that violence should not be considered a means to an end, but rather is an end within itself; as must be taken into consideration that I not only look towards the advancement of humanity, but must also take into account the impact that violence has upon our relationship with God. It’s an oxymoron for the professing Christian to worry about his safety, feelings, freedom, and rights, and still hold any credibility when he boldly proclaims his complete trust in God to the world in his everyday life.

Raising the sword is easier than turning the other cheek, but that doesn’t change the fact that Jesus never said, “except when…” after Luke 6:29. I believe this easy-way-out theology of justifying our way around the words of the very Person we claim to follow, stem off of our false idea that an eternity with God starts right now, and everything can be peachy-keen while we are in this world and in our sinful flesh. Paul said in Romans 8:17 that “we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.” Paul’s talking about the future hope we have in Heaven, yet we fall victim to thinking that we are already glorified with Him and should then never suffer as long as we are in His will; so naturally, we must defend ourselves and use violence at times to protect and preserve our will, our safety, and our comfort: Because, as we all know, it’s God’s will for us to never have hardships to the point that we may lose our lives for Him…what a delusion.

If the perspective in which I live is that of my country, my will, my job, my safety, etc, then I am going to do all that I can to preserve it, to kill for it, and even be willing to die for it; in light of the world, this courage in a man is honorable and commended. We give loud credit to those who die in war for the desires and goals of the country which they represent; however I have yet to hear on the radio or television of those who die daily for the One whom they represent which is over all earthly wars and conflicts. I want to hear about those whose lives were taken because they realized that they were fighting a spiritual warfare and that Satan cannot be defeated with a gun or a knife! I want to hear more about the heroes of the faith that were actually strong enough to live out Jesus’ words and turned the other cheek, and set a true example to the world of what a disciple of Christ is supposed to look like!

Those around us are spilling the blood of others out of their need and desire for self-preservation, but as a Christian I know that because I strive to be selfless, the last blood that needed to be shed for me was that of Jesus Christ; I no more have to spill blood to offer Him a sacrifice as an atonement for my sin, than I do out of my lack of trust that the next life will be unimaginably better than this one. And in that sense, I welcome it with open arms as I yearn daily to be that much closer to His embrace in Heaven. The second I use the harm of another to keep myself in this world, is the second I know that I’ve lost belief that love and forgiveness conquer all. Young kids are willing to die with pride for a piece of land that they swear allegiance to which will return eventually to the dust from which is was created; we are called to be willing to die, (if God so chooses), for a kingdom that will last forever - of which we sign allegiance to through the blood of Jesus Christ and represent with our holy titles as Christians. We show the love of Christ to the world boldly by turning the other cheek, loving in all circumstances, forgiving who everyone else hates, and daily living in the hope that we will one day be resurrected into the loving arms of Christ in Heaven for all of eternity. We are Christians, and we are ready to live and die for the King of all kings. May the love of Christ forever dominate the hatred of men.

[Rebirth In Flames]

No takers, huh?

[superf350]

Are you trying to say we are wrong to defend our Country and our Freedom?

[Rebirth In Flames]

Yes, I’m saying it’s hypocrisy for the Christian.

[BenAdam]

Yes, I’m saying it’s hypocrisy for the Christian.

Why? To take up arms to protect the weak? To be willing to stop someone from taking someone else's life? How is that hypocrisy?

Pacifism is a tough road to be sure, but if one wants to follow it, one should not be jugdemental on those that don't.

Hitler, Stalin, and other despots used ( and continue to use) force to get there way. Nothing wrong with standing up to them and be willing to fight.

[dignitized]

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[Rebirth In Flames]

Why? To take up arms to protect the weak? To be willing to stop someone from taking someone else's life? How is that hypocrisy?

I thought you read what I wrote up top; you want me to copy and paste it in another reply for you?

Pacifism is a tough road to be sure, but if one wants to follow it, one should not be jugdemental on those that don't.

We shouldn’t be judgmental? We should discern what is right and wrong? Are your ethics relative? For me, my ethics are defined in Scripture and it’s not a relative issue. Tolerance has become so accepted, that nothing else is tolerated. I can’t stand people who take the road of neutrality…as I said in my OP.

Hitler, Stalin, and other despots used ( and continue to use) force to get there way. Nothing wrong with standing up to them and be willing to fight.

According to who? Use New Testament biblical support for your points of view, not the world’s philosophy and definition of right and wrong, and justice. Plenty of examples in the Old Testament, but there’re none in the New Testament… wonder why?

[Rebirth In Flames]

There is a big difference between taking up arms for your own selfish needs - quite another to take up arms in defense of another. Can you honestly say that you would stand by and allow violence being inflicted on another? If your physical intervention is all that stands between a 10 year old girl and rape - would you not intervene?

Of course I would, but I would feel guilty afterwards because there’s no support for me using violence in the New Testament, as everything Jesus says seems to be anti-violence towards another human unconditionally. Yes there was the over-turned temple tables, but he wasn’t beating people down.

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[Rebirth In Flames]

It doesn't say he hurt anyone, nor killed anyone.

[Rebirth In Flames]

I’ll reiterate: Show me New Testament support for the taking of a life in any circumstance, or the defense of oneself physically. Can’t find it?
Exactly… Stop adding to the Word of God.

[BenAdam]

I’ll reiterate: Show me New Testament support for the taking of a life in any circumstance, or the defense of oneself physically. Can’t find it?
Exactly… Stop adding to the Word of God.

Show me where it says to not defend someone. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

[BenAdam]

Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

And what do you think the above means.

Tell you not to judge has nothing to do with right and wrong. Your view is very personalized and worthy of respect, yet there is not alot of support for your view, be honest and give the same respect for those that disagree.

[oliveplants]

Dh and I are in a tricky place on this one...

He's in the Air Force. But we listen to and read a lot of Anabaptist stuff (including the Bible).

The best way I can get at an explination is that we have citizenship in two kingdoms. As a Christian, I (we) should not fight to defend ourselves or our position. (I'm not sure about our family.) But, As an American, it is our (his) job to support the wellbeing of the country. In New Testament times, I would not advocate a Crusade, or a church-run state. But that doesn't exclude Christians from participating in the state.

Sorry, I guess I'm morphing from non-violent to non-involvement. They do kinda go together.

[oliveplants]

Where'd the quote button go? As to Luke 22, one could read that to mean a sword would bring in some money for the moneybag or to buy a knapsack, and if you don't have a sword to sell, sell your garment.

If Jesus meant for them to have swords to fight with, how could 2 possibly be enough among (at least) 12 men? And then why rebuke Peter when he actually used the thing?

[Rebirth In Flames]

It appears that you are taking that verse out of context:

“But now - You will be quite in another situation. You will want every thing. He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one - It is plain, this is not to be taken literally. It only means, This will be a time of extreme danger.” –John Wesley

“But now. Now has come a time of trial when all will be against you. Let him . . . buy a sword. Not to be taken literally, but a striking way of saying that enemies upon every side will assail them.” –The People’s New Testament

“he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy a sword;
that is, if he could get one no other way. Christ here uses the common dialect of the nation, as Dr. Lightfoot observes. So on the feast of dedication of the temple,
``if a man had not any thing to eat, but what he had by alms, he must beg, or (wtwok rkwm) , "sell his garment", and take oil, and lamps, and light them F21 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=lu&chapter=022&verse=036&next=037&prev=035#uu).''

These words of Christ are not to be understood literally, that he would have his disciples furnish themselves with swords at any rate, since he would never have said, as he afterwards does, that two were sufficient; which could not be enough for eleven men; or have forbid Peter the use of one, as he did in a very little time after this: but his meaning is, that wherever they came, and a door was opened for the preaching of the Gospel, they would have many adversaries, and these powerful, and would be used with great violence, and be followed with rage and persecution; so that they might seem to stand in need of swords to defend them: the phrase is expressive of the danger they would be exposed to, and of their need of protection; and therefore it was wrong in them to be disputing and quarrelling about superiority, or looking out for, and expecting temporal pomp and grandeur, when this would be their forlorn, destitute, and afflicted condition; and they would quickly see the affliction and distress begin in himself. In "seven" ancient copies of Beza's, it is read in the future tense, "he shall take, he shall sell, he shall buy".”
-John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

I can’t find a single commentary that holds any credibility of which supports your views on this verse.

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[jingwei]

Solomon once said There is a time for war and a time for peace.
Reading the book of revelation and many old testament prophecies, I think Christians should be peaceful and be persecuted as prophecies predict.

We should practice nonviolence, but when people are being hurt and we stop the perpetrator but do not, their blood will be on our heads because we could have helped.

but we should not use violence to punish sinners. In the bible one single angel killed 130 thousand assyrian warriors single handedly, nothing's happening now obviously because we're not supposed to do God's job.

[Forest]

No support? What about when Jesus made a WHIP and used said whip to drive the money changers from the temple? Doesn't sound very pacifistic to me.:wave:

It doesn't say he beat up anyone with the whip, but chased them out.

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[Rebirth In Flames]

rotfl! You can't find a commentary that YOU like which supports the notion of defending others? How subjective can you be? I notice that you did not deny that there are people who support the idea of defense of others. Too bad they aren't credible . . . in your eyes at least. Can’t you see how terribly biased such a statement is? Then you are going to dictate which passages are to be taken literally and which are not . . . . Tell me - if Christ did not mean it literally, why did Peter carry a sword?

ME - I don't bother with commentaries unless I want to see what someone else THINKS the bible says. When I want to know what the Scriptures say - I look at the Scriptures.

BTW - why are you limiting evidence ONLY to the New Testament? Is the Old Testament any LESS scripture?

1st: I don't care about what you feel or think about this, I'm interested in facts and support. I offered you my respectable sources which interpret it all the same, and you have offered me none. If you attack my point of view but offer no evidence or other respectable theologians who think as you do, then your argument is moot.

2nd: You're kidding about the OT vs. NT, right? You do understand that certain things were done away with in the NT, God interacted with man differently, and man interacted with one another differently as Christ changed most everything... ?

[Rebirth In Flames]

We should practice nonviolence, but when people are being hurt and we stop the perpetrator but do not, their blood will be on our heads because we could have helped.



Do you have Scriptural support for this? Or is it merely how you feel?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick: Who can understand it?"
Going off feelings and how we feel in our heart means nothing, it's about going off God's Word.

[Rebirth In Flames]

I’ll continue to sight sources, even though all of you are playing footsie with your feelings and offering no credible support for your interpretations of Scripture. Here’s one that is neutral: “The forgiveness that Christ practices and teaches is said to be irreconcilable with the demands of justice or the free man’s sense of moral responsibility.” -H. Richard Niebuhr, Christ & Culture

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[Rebirth In Flames]

AGAIN - I do not care what this or that "theologin" thinks about what the bible says. But lets play the game your way. I have cited the single most respected and authoritative theologin in my experience. Me. :) After all - I didn't go to seminary for nothin :D
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...oh, my, gosh...

[jingwei]

I’ll continue to sight sources, even though all of you are playing footsie with your feelings and offering no credible support for your interpretations of Scripture. Here’s one that is neutral: “The forgiveness that Christ practices and teaches is said to be irreconcilable with the demands of justice or the free man’s sense of moral responsibility.” -H. Richard Niebuhr, Christ & Culture


Let me quote Revelations
15] And the four angels were(will be) loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
[16] And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

[Rebirth In Flames]

Let me quote Revelations
15] And the four angels were(will be) loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
[16] And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

I see.. so you must interpret the "angels" and God's "horsemen" as humans? How does this snippet from the end-times give you authority for violence? All I see is it giving the angels and God's army that He creates on the last day authority for violence.

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[Rebirth In Flames]

What part of Scripture are you referring to, which states that Peter carried a sword around with him?

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[jingwei]

I see.. so you must interpret the "angels" and God's "horsemen" as humans? How does this snippet from the end-times give you authority for violence? All I see is it giving the angels and God's army that He creates on the last day authority for violence.

EXACTLY! God forgives but he is not a pushover. Neither are CHristians.
Also I am not interpreting. revelations SAID there are four angels and 200 million horsemen doing the killing.

[Forest]

Quite simply - why did God not rebuke Peter for carrying a sword? Or do you suppose that God didn't notice that he was carrying one?

So are you saying that God wanted Peter to smite people with the sword because Peter wasn't directly rebuked for having a sword?

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[Forest]

huh? :scratch:

I'm asking plain and simple - If Christ was against violence why did He allow Peter to even carry a sword in His presence?

I don't know.

Do you believe Christ was for violence?

If not, you tell me why he allowed Peter to carry a sword.

[ethereous]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mathew 10:34

[Forest]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mathew 10:34

Ephesians 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
...............and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

[superf350]

Well, I truly believe the good Old US of A is free because God has blessed our warriors in battle. We are not free without those men and women making a sacrifice that many folks would not or have not. And yet we have people that think we as Americans should stand back and let our enemies attack and kill thousands without standing up for our rights to live free! We should thank these folks for what they do instead of giving the impression that they are commiting sin by keeping us free!

[brotherChristian]

As a Christian AND a U.S. Soldier, I really don't know how to respond to this. I think this quote says how I feel best:

...but we should not use violence to punish sinners. In the bible one single angel killed 130 thousand assyrian warriors single handedly, nothing's happening now obviously because we're not supposed to do God's job.

I cannot an WILL not sit idly by ignoring genocide, slavery, and worse, just because it isn't happening in my back yard. And while I'm all for locking asocial people away so they don't kill, maim, rape, etc., I am against the death penalty and other sorts of violent 'pay-back'.

What's more, God put me into this position, and His way is best. If not for being in the Army I would never have met my wife, never had a son, never adopted an orphan and actually I would probably be dead in a NYC drug-den somewhere and without ever getting near the Word of our Lord.

Sorry, I digress. All I know is, when the time comes for me to answer for myself there will be two of us there: me and the Boss.

I do have one useful comment to add to this thread. :preach: As to Jesus fasioning a whip and driving out the money changers, I think it's being taken a little out of context. Remember that God has every right to cast His vengence upon anyone He sees fit. God's righteous anger toward those defiling His temple does not create a blueprint for us to follow, for vengance is His alone. It was a valiant effort though. :thumbsup:

Thank you and God bless you all.

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[tyreth]

Pacifism is not God's ideal. Obviously, we will all live without violence and taking of life in the new heaven and new earth, when all things are restored to perfection.

However violence - including the taking of life - are on occasions righteous answers to wicked works.

10 “When you go near a city to fight against it, then proclaim an offer of peace to it. 11 And it shall be that if they accept your offer of peace, and open to you, then all the people who are found in it shall be placed under tribute to you, and serve you. 12 Now if the city will not make peace with you, but war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the LORD your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. 14 But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies’ plunder which the LORD your God gives you. 15 Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, 17 but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18 lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 20:10-18

Your God is not a pacifist God, or a God of pacifists. This is what God commanded of the Hebrews as they entered the land which He was giving to them. If God truly believed that His chosen people should never take a life, then here are the works of a race which laboured under a false god.

The Old Testament is replete with warriors, heroes, mighty men and servants of God who defended themselves, their land, their loved ones and even strangers. They did this through violence and taking of lives - right throughout the history of God's people.

Then comes the New Testament. Jesus teaches us to love those who hate us, to not take an eye for an eye.

However, Jesus does not remove any of the multitude of examples of the heroes of faith in the Old Testament. He does not counter or condemn their lives or actions, and does not say they lived wrongfully. The onus of proof is on you to prove to us that the examples of these heroes of faith no longer applies.

It is possible, and indeed good, to punish someone for their sins even when they are forgiven. King David, when he sinned against God, was punished. God told David that he was forgiven, yet the punishment God had decreed would still be carried out - that David would lose his son. God forgave David, and punished him.

A parent is the same with their child. Their child may repent, and the parent may forgive them, yet that child must still be punished. God gives authority to governments, as Paul teaches us. Paul goes on to say of a government that, "he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." (Romans 13:4)
A society *cannot* release a murderer for their repentance of their crimes. If someone commits murder they must be punished. Though all whom the murderer sinned against may forgive that person, and that person may repent - they must still be punished. A government that releases someone when they repent does evil against the very people it is supposed to defend. God gives authority to men, in this day and age, to use violence and murder where necessary, to defend the innocent and punish the guilty.

A fool ignores the Old Testament and the testimony of the most righteous men of God who ever lived.

Would Jesus stand by and allow a man to rape a child when words could not turn this man's heart?

Would you stand by and watch as an intruder murders your wife and children, when next to you lies a gun you could use to kill him with and save them? Would God condemn you for defending an innocent by taking a guilty life? God hates hands that take an innocent life (Proverbs 6:17).
Remember the good samaritan. Walking past that wounded man without helping him was wrong. Passive actions can be deemed sinful. You too, in refusing the opportunity to take a wicked to save an innocent one have sinned through your passive actions.

As a side note, Jesus walked and talked with Simon who was called the Zealot. At that time in the history of Israel, Zealots were people who believed in violently restoring authority of Israel back to the Jews. This man was not condemned by Jesus or by other Christians:
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=zealot&version1=31&searchtype=all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot (read Jewish War with Rome)

[lismore]

Yes, I’m saying it’s hypocrisy for the Christian.

Yes.

The believer has been shown how to be salt and light.

Romans 12

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. 2
20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Deuteronomy 32:35 (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Deuteronomy 32:35)
It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."

Matthew 5:43

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Matthew 5#fen-NIV-23278h)] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Matthew 5#fen-NIV-23279i)] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

:)

[lismore]

Then of course - we can look and see that Christ advocated the carrying of swords.

Christ said 'Put your sword away, those who live by the sword will die by the sword'. The he put the man's ear back on.

We are called to be the people who put the ear back on, who bind up wounds, who bring the healing of the Lord, not the people who cut the ear off, or who kill and maim.

We are to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

:)

[lismore]

As a Christian AND a U.S. Soldier, I really don't know how to respond to this. I think this quote says how I feel best:



I cannot an WILL not sit idly by ignoring genocide, slavery, and worse, just because it isn't happening in my back yard.

When your army is the one doing the genocide, enslaving and worse as the US army has done in the past, when then?

There is a difference between serving the Lord and serving Babylon.

:)

[TrystinxDeSoll]

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay--and claims a halo for his dishonesty."

~Robert A. Heinlein

Thoughts?

[brotherChristian]

When your army is the one doing the genocide, enslaving and worse as the US army has done in the past, when then?

There is a difference between serving the Lord and serving Babylon.

:)


I'm not sure what you mean.

It's certainly true that this army has committed unspeakable atrocities in the past. There are those who still commit them today. But the army is comprised of individuals (now more than ever), and just like in the the rest of society there are those who do evil and there are those who do not have the moral courage to stand up for what is right.

In my post I am speaking of myself personaly; what makes you think I would not turn the point of my sword to my commander's throat if I saw him violating the Law of War?

I do not feel I am serving the Lord in my occupation any more than I feel a Kinko's Copies clerk is with his occupation. But the way I interact with those I come into contact with does give me an opportunity be His tool.

I'm not lashing out at you here and I apologize if I seem a little harsh; I only wish to clarify that I have personal reasons for doing what I do which I feel come from the non-subjective moral tao which God infused into the soul of man. Why else would we be driven to stopping a rapist or other criminal?

God bless, Christian :)

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[lismore]

:wave:

Hope you are well.

I'm not sure what you mean.

It's certainly true that this army has committed unspeakable atrocities in the past. There are those who still commit them today.


There are those who would say it is the army's job to commit atrocities.

Certainly the most evil and oppressive countries today will not receive military attention: Saudi Arabia and China. Indeed Saudi is an American ally.

The military will choose a weaker more viable target, which leads to the assumption that all this talk about freedom and democracy is a smokescreen.


But the army is comprised of individuals (now more than ever), and just like in the the rest of society there are those who do evil and there are those who do not have the moral courage to stand up for what is right.


But friend, when you have to follow orders, is this not the end of individual choice?



In my post I am speaking of myself personaly; what makes you think I would not turn the point of my sword to my commander's throat if I saw him violating the Law of War?


That would be against God's Law though. Do not kill. Far better not to join the military than join it and kill your commander:scratch: .


I do not feel I am serving the Lord in my occupation any more than I feel a Kinko's Copies clerk is with his occupation. But the way I interact with those I come into contact with does give me an opportunity be His tool.


Good for you:thumbsup: . But you could also say a prostitute could be a witness in their profession, or a christian terrorist?


I'm not lashing out at you here and I apologize if I seem a little harsh; I only wish to clarify that I have personal reasons for doing what I do which I feel come from the non-subjective moral tao which God infused into the soul of man.


No problem. And I hope you never are offended by anything I say. We are discussing things but at the end of the day- your decision is between you and the LOrd. I can only say God Bless you where-ever you are.

I can only repeat, I think what paul and Jesus said about forgiving, loving, showing kindness to an enemy and heaping burning coals on their head, is a powerful way to turn your enemy into a friend. Soon enough that person will die anyway, but we want them to find life first.

:)

[lismore]

You are overlooking the instructions that He gave when he sent the desciples out. Further - He did not rebuke peter for HAVING a sword - but for using it in that situation.

Jesus wanted people to carry swords but not use them?

Paul would have told Peter not to carry a sword. Paul told us to submit to the authorities and to obey their laws.

:)

[lismore]

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay--and claims a halo for his dishonesty."

~Robert A. Heinlein

Thoughts?

'War is sweet to those who have never experienced it'

Pindar (Ancient Greek General)

'Men grow tired of love sooner than war'

Aristotle

'War gives the conqueror power to impose any conditions on the conquered'

Julius Caesar

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[lismore]

Where does it say not to use them? Peter was told to put the sword away because he was attempting by force to twart the expressed will of God. Let remember that Christ told them what would happen that night. Further - notice that Peter used the sword for attack against an unarmed man.
And who is saying otherwise? Question is - would Paul say to submit yourself to the will and whims of briggonds and bandits?

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[lismore]

Where does it say not to use them? Peter was told to put the sword away because he was attempting by force to twart the expressed will of God. Let remember that Christ told them what would happen that night. Further - notice that Peter used the sword for attack against an unarmed man.
And who is saying otherwise? Question is - would Paul say to submit yourself to the will and whims of briggonds and bandits?

Jesus said those who live by the sword will die by the sword. There is a better way than never ending violence and revenge- the gospel of peace.

The high priests servant was armed with a club, but fighting him is never the way. Jesus wants him saved not killed.

:)

[brotherChristian]

...Certainly the most evil and oppressive countries today will not receive military attention: Saudi Arabia and China. Indeed Saudi is an American ally.

The military will choose a weaker more viable target, which leads to the assumption that all this talk about freedom and democracy is a smokescreen.

Correct. Except for the part about the military choosing its targets (at least on that scale). Just because I love my country does not mean I love its leadership. Should I rage againts the machine or should I obey my earthly masters and go where they send me? Ultimately my earthly works don't amount to squat, but I try to live my life the way I feel moved to by the Spirit.


But friend, when you have to follow orders, is this not the end of individual choice?

Not really. Romans if full of references to submitting to earthly authority. Jesus Himself said that a slave is not better than a master.


That would be against God's Law though. Do not kill. Far better not to join the military than join it and kill your commander:scratch: .

Right, and I never have killed. I have threatened deadly force many times; but that has always been enough. Usually I don't even need to do that, just use some diplomacy. I thank the lord that He has only placed me in positions where I could effect a non-violent outcome. Or maybe He has always lent me His grace in those situation so that I have never had to kill.


Good for you:thumbsup: . But you could also say a prostitute could be a witness in their profession, or a christian terrorist?

Exactly, I not only could say that, I am saying that. Pastors, apologists and the like do not have a monopoly on witnessing. We are all sinners and we are all equal. The first shall be last and the last shall be first.


No problem. And I hope you never are offended by anything I say. We are discussing things but at the end of the day- your decision is between you and the LOrd. I can only say God Bless you where-ever you are.

But of course, likewise. :thumbsup:


I can only repeat, I think what paul and Jesus said about forgiving, loving, showing kindness to an enemy and heaping burning coals on their head, is a powerful way to turn your enemy into a friend. Soon enough that person will die anyway, but we want them to find life first.

:)

I agree with that; and I would not be in a position to show that kindness were it not for my current position. Better I am here than one who may take a very different course of action. I didn't seek this life out, I was a very vocal activist in my teens. I was suspended from school for protesting against the invation of Grenada, I was finally kicked out of school for leaving for a week to march on washington against Contra-Aid. No lover of war am I. Things just worked out this way (or were worked out beyond my control).

God bless, Christian.

[dignitized]

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