Walsingham Lament

[Mysterium_Fidei]

In the wracks of Walsingam
Whom should I chuse
But the Queene of Walsingam
To be guide to my muse?

Then, thou Prince of Walsingam
Graunt me to frame
Bitter plaintes to rewe thy wronge
Bitter wo for thy name.

Bitter was it, oh to see
The sely sheepe
Murdred by the raveninge wolves
While the sheepharde did sleep.

Bitter was it, oh, to viewe
The sacred vyne
Whiles the gardiners plaied all close
Rooted up by the swine.

Such were the worth of Walsingam
While she did stand
Such are the wrackes as now do shewe
Of that (so) holy lande.

Levell, levell with the ground
The Towres doe lye
Which with their golden, glit-t'ring tops
Pearsed oute to the skye.

Where weare gates noe gates are nowe,
The waies unknowen,
Where the presse of freares did passe
While her fame far was blowen.

Oules do scrike where the sweetest himnes
Lately wear songe,
Toades and serpents hold their dennes
Where the palmers did throng.

Weep, weep O Walsingam,
Whose dayes are nightes,
Blessings turned to blasphemies,
Holy deedes to dispites.

Sinne is where our Ladye sate,
Heaven turned is to helle;
Sathan sitte where our Lord did swaye,
Walsingam, oh, farewell!

Do you sometimes feel a tad hypocritical being a High Church, Anglo-Catholic Anglican? I know Reformation England was not tolerant of open devotion to Our Lady or the Eucharist, and I'm pretty sure I would have been hung, drawn, and quartered being the Anglo-Catholic I am. The fact is, many horrors such as these were carried out with approval from Anglican Leaders at the time, and I don't always feel comfortable that what our Church once brutally killed to stop we now support.

[Fish and Bread]

It's no different in any other church. Roman Catholicism used to be so against freedom of religion that they brought heretics before an inquisition, tortured, and killed them. Now they're big advocates of freedom of religion. Every church has a few skeletons in it's closet.

[AngCath]

I'd have been burned right along with you brother for my devotion to Our Lady.

[gtsecc]

Isn't it obvious the Reformation was a huge mistake?

[Fish and Bread]

Isn't it obvious the Reformation was a huge mistake?

I don't really think it is obvious. It's a debateable point, yes, but I do believe that Roman Catholicism was growing corrupt and needed to be reformed in some respects, whilist having no internal mechanism of doing so. Arguably, perhaps there were better ways to go about things, but I can't think of any off the top of my head and certainly it's easy to Monday Morning Quarterback five-hundred years later. The reformers did the best they could with what they had at the time.

Besides, the reformation opened the door for a wider range of thought and I think is eventually indirectly responsible for increased focus on love and inclusivity in Christianity. Liberal Christianity as such would not likely to exist today were it not for the reformation.

[Incubator]

I also wonder whether the Enlightenment would have flourished the way it did if Christendom was still intact.

[TomUK]

Do you sometimes feel a tad hypocritical being a High Church, Anglo-Catholic Anglican? I know Reformation England was not tolerant of open devotion to Our Lady or the Eucharist, and I'm pretty sure I would have been hung, drawn, and quartered being the Anglo-Catholic I am. The fact is, many horrors such as these were carried out with approval from Anglican Leaders at the time, and I don't always feel comfortable that what our Church once brutally killed to stop we now support.

Like other posters have said all denominations have events in their past they would rather forget, the Anglican Church less than most. Certainly be familiar with it all as i think every Christian should know the history of the Church, but don't let it dishearten you. Just thank God that no matter how many times we have erred in the past, he remains with his arms wide open ready to accept all those who repent.

[Wiffey]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

While I would not have fared well in the time period you refer to (due to my personal devotion to the Blessed Virgin)...I really do think that Reformation was needed.

Were there excesses? Yes, as there are with all movements who seek to overthrow the dominant paradigm. But out of it came a flowering of thought....diversity of ideas, the notion of religious freedom and freedom of conscience and speech. Ideas that are the basis of our modern democracies.

Monolithic Christendom had its downsides...censorship, brutal oppression of opposing points of view. Think of all the examples where church and state fused to produce things like the crusades, the inquisition. Mass murder, including the murder of dissenting Christians...the sack of Constantinople in 1204, the Albigensian crusade in southern France that wiped out the Cathars, pogroms in Russia, etc.

No human is perfect and all human institutions have erred at one point or another. Luckily our God is merciful and He is our perfection. When we leave this place I believe we will truly be one holy catholic and apostolic church....all of us of every denomination who love and serve the Lord.

[ContraMundum]

I would have burnt by the Catholics for standing up against a whole litany of insanity that they propagated at the time.

It's ok as a personal devotional practice and opinion if you want to get all involved in the Mary thing, but as long as it's not forced down the throats of those who would rather talk direct to the Lord. It's a matter of personal piety, and should remain as such.

Personally, I'm no longer into the whole Mary thing. Too many weirdos involved in it these days, trying to give her the role reserved to God the Holy Spirit alone. I think the Walsingham Shrine is a good thing, and it doesn't attract the nuts like the Medurgorje (sp?) phenomenon does. I believe Mary is the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, that she prays for us and all that, but really, I will only ever consecrate my heart to Christ, despite what the apparitions "say" about consecrating our hearts to Mary.

[ContraMundum]

BTW- does anyone here actually believe the story behind the shrine?

[SirTimothy]

I'm once again behind you 100%, Contra my brother!

Timothy

[karen freeinchristman]

It's ok as a personal devotional practice and opinion if you want to get all involved in the Mary thing, but as long as it's not forced down the throats of those who would rather talk direct to the Lord. It's a matter of personal piety, and should remain as such.


:amen:

[TomUK]

BTW- does anyone here actually believe the story behind the shrine?

There are many stories behind the shrine - i do believe that Blessed Mary appeared to Lady Richeldis and told her to construct a building representing the Holy House of Nazarath.

[TomUK]

It's ok as a personal devotional practice and opinion if you want to get all involved in the Mary thing, but as long as it's not forced down the throats of those who would rather talk direct to the Lord. It's a matter of personal piety, and should remain as such.

I agree totally. For me Mary enriches my relationship with Our Lord, but if for some Mary is an obstacle/unnecessary hinderance then i don't believe she be part of your daily prayers. I suppose in a way 'Mary' is a lot like speaking in tongues - not really sure if that makes sense!

[karen freeinchristman]

I agree totally. For me Mary enriches my relationship with Our Lord, but if for some Mary is an obstacle/unnecessary hinderance then i don't believe she be part of your daily prayers. I suppose in a way 'Mary' is a lot like speaking in tongues - not really sure if that makes sense!

Tom, I think that is a wonderful way of putting it! :thumbsup:

[Wiffey]

What is great is when we magnify the Lord. Is Mary a wonderful example? You bet! I love her. But my admiration should enhance my devotion to God. If a person feels uncomfortable addressing Mary or the Saints...they certainly shouldn't do so. Christ is our center and our ultimate focus. Personally, I feel comforted in asking for the additional prayers of the Virgin and of the Saints in heaven. I don't think there is anything wrong with that...especially as it never supercedes or replaces my prayers to the Lord. My worship is reserved for God alone.

[gtsecc]

If someone does feel comfortable addressing the saints, isn't that really because they don't understand the creeds? Seriously, if we are to call ourselves Christian, don't we have to believe the creeds and all that they mean? I don’t want to shove it down someone’s throat, if they can’t deal with it, but then again, as I understand it – prayer to saints is part of the confession of Christianity.

[Wiffey]

The way I view it is this...asking for the intercession of the Saints & the Virgin Mary is indeed fine...but certainly not necessary for salvation. So I would view it as optional, up to the individual believer.

[gtsecc]

The way I view it is this...asking for the intercession of the Saints & the Virgin Mary is indeed fine...but certainly not necessary for salvation. So I would view it as optional, up to the individual believer.
How about this - It is a necessary confession of Christianity for the full faith,
but Christ can save whomever he wants,
even if they are unaware of this part of the faith?
Christ can save Muslims if He chooses, however, that does not mean their confession of the faith is perfect.