Want to Climb a Mountain?

[Fish and Bread]

I was reading some homilies from a Roman Catholic bishop. Here he quotes the Bishop of Rome:


Our new Holy Father Benedict XVI says, "A life lived by faith resembles more an expedition up a mountain than a quiet evening spent reading in front of a fire."

I am coming to the conclusion that there's a huge disconnect between me and Roman Catholicism, and even traditionalist Christianity, that goes beyond theological propositions and is actually perhaps more of a personality thing. Why in the world would I want to hike up a mountain when I could be spending a quiet evening reading in front of a fire? I honestly don't get it. Is that supposed to encourage me to convert? Then again, I don't get why when Jesus says "Take up your cross", that's supposed to get me to want to strengthen my Christianity. I'd rather read a book, honestly. :) Even the analogies don't seem very appealing to me.

[Wiffey]

What's so bad about sitting in front of a nice fire? I agree that mountain climbing is entirely too rugged an enterprise for me.



I could climb Everest every week, and I would still not have earned salvation. It is a gift. A gift that I can contemplate and give thanks for from the safety of my couch :P .

[SeenAndUnseen]

I think maybe the real jist of the message is that if something matters to you more than anything else, you will be willing to overcome whatever obstacles may stand in your way in order to attain and preserve it.

[Wiffey]

Oh, I totally get the metaphor...it just gets tiring trying to continually earn what Christ gives freely to those who put their trust and faith in Him.

-Another retired mountainclimber for Jesus

[Fish and Bread]

I think maybe the real jist of the message is that if something matters to you more than anything else, you will be willing to overcome whatever obstacles may stand in your way in order to attain and preserve it.

What if it doesn't matter to me more than anything else? One of the qualms I have about Christianity is that if it's taken absolutely literally, one is supposed to be a fanatic about it and put it before all else, being willing to give up all else. I don't understand why I'd want to do that. Yes, there's the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell, but I don't really even like to consider those things as motivators, because I sort of feel manipulated when I do -- threatened, almost.

To me, a loving God gives us heaven as a gift, asking nothing in return, because he loves beyond human love. As human beings, we put conditions on love most of the time. It doesn't seem to me that God would, if he is perfection. His love would be beyond all loves. The problem is that I sometimes get the nagging sensation that such thinking isn't exactly Christian and isn't exactly true. I guess that's one of the things that hard for an ex-rccer like myself to shake, similar to what kamikat alluded to in another thread.

[Fish and Bread]

Oh, I totally get the metaphor...it just gets tiring trying to continually earn what Christ gives freely to those who put their trust and faith in Him.

Exactly. :)

[Wiffey]

I am just getting too old and cranky to spend all my time being neurotic about going to Hell for eating a chicken McNugget on a Friday. (Not that I would ever consume such a gastronomic travesty, even if I wasn't a vegetarian).

It makes one afraid of God, as this mindset paints a picture that tends to make God appear, well, petty. Which I don't buy at all. Now I'm not saying that we're free to be random hedonists...clearly God intends for us to lead moral lives. But too much emphasis on works takes the focus off of Christ's amazing sacrifice for us...that he loved us enough to suffer and die for our sakes while we were still sinners. That's the drama: God's unfathomable mercy and goodness.

[SeenAndUnseen]

But, do you really think this quote implies working one's way to salvation? Couldn't it just be a statement about not taking the easy way out if there is a fight to fight? What if Bilbo Baggins had kicked the dwarves out of Bag End the night before that fateful journey began which eventually led to the destruction of The One Ring? What if he'd instead decided to be a layabout, blowing smoke rings and eating cheese while Sauron scourged all of Middle Earth?

:D Oh, I know it's perhaps a silly comparison -- but there really are quite some conflicts in the world, and sometimes their resolutions require a bit of bravery and effort instead of complacency and insulation.

[Wiffey]

Quite true! IMO being a Christian is not a passive enterprise. Our job is to reflect the love and mercy of Christ to the world...no small feat.

[karen freeinchristman]

But, do you really think this quote implies working one's way to salvation? Couldn't it just be a statement about not taking the easy way out if there is a fight to fight? What if Bilbo Baggins had kicked the dwarves out of Bag End the night before that fateful journey began which eventually led to the destruction of The One Ring? What if he'd instead decided to be a layabout, blowing smoke rings and eating cheese while Sauron scourged all of Middle Earth?

:D Oh, I know it's perhaps a silly comparison -- but there really are quite some conflicts in the world, and sometimes their resolutions require a bit of bravery and effort instead of complacency and insulation.

:amen:


Quite true! IMO being a Christian is not a passive enterprise. Our job is to reflect the love and mercy of Christ to the world...no small feat.
:thumbsup:




Love God and Love One Another. Sometimes this comes easy, like sitting in front of a cosy fire. Sometimes it is like climbing a mountain. I certainly find it an occasional struggle to love others, but this is what matters to God, and what matters to God, matters to me.

[gtsecc]

Our response to the free gift is climing the mountain - not sitting by the fire.

[Fish and Bread]

Love God and Love One Another. Sometimes this comes easy, like sitting in front of a cosy fire. Sometimes it is like climbing a mountain. I certainly find it an occasional struggle to love others

I agree that, in theory, there are times when we need to struggle, both inwardly and outwardly to love better. What bothers me is that some brands of Christianity, and perhaps even the bible itself, tell us to struggle over things, and to feel guilty about things, that seem questionable to me -- "impure thoughts", not putting God first in all things, missing a Sunday mass, contraception, etc.. And then people get tortured for doing those things, in hell. There are conditions put on God's love in some traditons and they're, quite frankly, kind of petty and nitpicky conditions. What I struggle with is that it does seem to be what the bible and tradition point to. I guess that's the main reason why I take so much as metaphor rather than literal.

Occasionally, I feel a disconnect with Christianity, even though there is so much that I love about it. There's kind of 50% I really love and 50% that really freaks me out. The Episcopal Church frankly affords me a nice place where I can feel free to accept the 50% I like and reject the 50% I don't, and I think most our bishops actually accept and reject the same things I do, or similar things, but there's a question of authenticity that nags at me. Am I a Christian or something new? And if I'm something new, why isn't there a religion out there for that? I feel like Christianity is by far the best religion out there, but I'm not sure that it's the best religion that could ever exist, because of bad 50%. It seems like theoretically there could be something better, there just isn't.

[Wiffey]

I have no problem with moutain climbing per se...if it is done out of gratitude and joy and not out of fear that God will destroy us if we relax for even one minute.

I take the order to love God and love my neighbor as myself very seriously...so I set aside several hours each week to volunteer for hospice and for the international african aid organization that my parents founded in their retirement. But it is something joyful to give back to Christ and serve His people...not because I think God is out to get me and the only way to stave off annihilation is to do a million things per week.

I say this as a recovering frantic climber of mountains, who so feared God's wrath that she went without needed pain medication following her spinal fusion surgeries so she could "offer it up" as atonement for sins long ago confessed and repented of.:(

[Inside Edge]

Am I a Christian or something new? And if I'm something new, why isn't there a religion out there for that? I feel like Christianity is by far the best religion out there, but I'm not sure that it's the best religion that could ever exist, because of bad 50%. It seems like theoretically there could be something better, there just isn't.
I hope you don't take offense to this, Fish, but some of your recent posts really betray a strong sense of pride - of the self-important kind. Like the one above.

Are you something new? Don't flatter yourself. You're what a lot of Christians (of any variety) are at any given moment. You happen to be aware of it, so maybe that puts you in a smaller subset.

The Pope's comment reminds me of Petrarch's Mount Ventoux. It is essentially the story of he and his brother climbing a small "mountain" in southern France. He describes his brother as a Godly man, always making the "right" choices; while Petrarch himself just can't seem to find that "groove" his brother appears to possess. His brother makes for the rocky, steeper path up the mountain, while he takes the easy, well groomed trail for easier access. Ultimately, Petrarch's revelation on the mountain journey is something to the effect of "I went up the mountain a sinner, and came down...a sinner."

I think the mountain metaphor is an excellent one. Sometimes, yes, Christianity is a hard path. Like many things in this life, effort and discipline leads to a greater payoff.

I doubt the Pope was saying that one's life must be like a mountain climb in order for Christianity to payoff. I think, however, that if your faith journey is like a mountain climb, you will experience the faith in a much richer way.

Maybe we can sit on our laurels and wait for God to hand us paradise - there's lots of churches out there that will sell you that. However, it is irrelevant to what I think the Pope's message is: the mountain-way will be harder and sometimes scary, but you'll get more exersize, experience more along the way, and there's one h*** of a view at the top which is all the more exhilirating if you've walked up there (as opposed to say, a cable car or flipping through someone else's photo album in front of your fireplace).

[ChessCastle]

Our response to the free gift is climing the mountain - not sitting by the fire.


Very well put!

CC

[Fish and Bread]

I hope you don't take offense to this, Fish, but some of your recent posts really betray a strong sense of pride - of the self-important kind. Like the one above.

Are you something new? Don't flatter yourself. You're what a lot of Christians (of any variety) are at any given moment. You happen to be aware of it, so maybe that puts you in a smaller subset.

The Pope's comment reminds me of Petrarch's Mount Ventoux. It is essentially the story of he and his brother climbing a small "mountain" in southern France. He describes his brother as a Godly man, always making the "right" choices; while Petrarch himself just can't seem to find that "groove" his brother appears to possess. His brother makes for the rocky, steeper path up the mountain, while he takes the easy, well groomed trail for easier access. Ultimately, Petrarch's revelation on the mountain journey is something to the effect of "I went up the mountain a sinner, and came down...a sinner."

I think the mountain metaphor is an excellent one. Sometimes, yes, Christianity is a hard path. Like many things in this life, effort and discipline leads to a greater payoff.

I doubt the Pope was saying that one's life must be like a mountain climb in order for Christianity to payoff. I think, however, that if your faith journey is like a mountain climb, you will experience the faith in a much richer way.

Maybe we can sit on our laurels and wait for God to hand us paradise - there's lots of churches out there that will sell you that. However, it is irrelevant to what I think the Pope's message is: the mountain-way will be harder and sometimes scary, but you'll get more exersize, experience more along the way, and there's one h*** of a view at the top which is all the more exhilirating if you've walked up there (as opposed to say, a cable car or flipping through someone else's photo album in front of your fireplace).

Without boring you with details, I've led a very tough life. It keeps on getting tougher. I was very nearly homeless last week and I could easily be homeless after a time, with no way of working my way out because of unceritified disabilities. I almost died of health problems when I was eighteen. All I've ever wanted in life was a wife and I've tried very hard to achieve that and can't and aren't likely to. And here comes Christianity threatening me with hell for not following a lot of rules and promising me if I'm really good, I'll have to climb a hard mountain. I'm already climbing a hard mountain, it's called life. And what help is this God? What's his solution? He offers a cross. I already have a cross -- the impossibility of making a living in a society that demands that I do so -- and the likelihood that that'll lead to the streets -- plus the difficulty of find companionship -- and the day to day physical pain I endure. I think I'd rather be a diest -- at least that God isn't trying to make things *harder* on us -- life is hard enough as it is.

[karen freeinchristman]

Very well put!

CCHey, it's ChessCastle! :wave: Hi!

[karen freeinchristman]

Without boring you with details, I've led a very tough life. It keeps on getting tougher. ...

I think I'd rather be a diest -- at least that God isn't trying to make things *harder* on us -- life is hard enough as it is.

John, I'm beginning to get worried about you. Can't you go back east to your family for a bit of support? You haven't been in Arizona very long and haven't yet built up support there through a church, but it seems really important to reach out to someone nearby, or to go back to where there are people who know you who can support you. You are only 23. Is there someone in your family who can help you out? You need more than just our cyber-support here at CF.

[SirTimothy]

What was it St. Paul set about running a race? Christianity isn't easy. Loving God with all our hearts, souls, minds and strength is definitely not easy. It's an upwards struggle every day in my life to put him first. To love my neighbours as myself... eek. I know I can't do that. To tell other's about him... well, that's pretty difficult too, to be honest. I'd much prefer sitting by a fire reading. But passivism isn't Christianity. Christianity is difficult.

Timothy

[Wiffey]

Without boring you with details, I've led a very tough life. It keeps on getting tougher. I was very nearly homeless last week and I could easily be homeless after a time, with no way of working my way out because of unceritified disabilities. I almost died of health problems when I was eighteen. All I've ever wanted in life was a wife and I've tried very hard to achieve that and can't and aren't likely to. And here comes Christianity threatening me with hell for not following a lot of rules and promising me if I'm really good, I'll have to climb a hard mountain. I'm already climbing a hard mountain, it's called life. And what help is this God? What's his solution? He offers a cross. I already have a cross -- the impossibility of making a living in a society that demands that I do so -- and the likelihood that that'll lead to the streets -- plus the difficulty of find companionship -- and the day to day physical pain I endure. I think I'd rather be a diest -- at least that God isn't trying to make things *harder* on us -- life is hard enough as it is.

As someone who has a permanent disability following severe injury and two spinal fusion surgeries....I totally hear you. My cross is built in and I carry it each morning when I awake, in pain, yet get up and thank God for each day and my life. I carry it as I fight to be cheerful and take care of my family to the best of my ability. I carry my cross when I love God despite my challenges and thank Him for preserving me through them instead of blaming Him for allowing me to become disabled at such a young age.

Able bodied folks might misinterpret what you or I have to say and think that we are saying that there should be no struggle in Faith. They might not get that some of us have full plates o'struggle every day and don't think God will hate us for only doing what we can manage.

I love it when I am well enough to do something extra for God. When I don't manage it, it is not out of complacency or laziness, but out of exhaustion and pain. I think God can forgive me for that. He knows my heart and sees that every day I am able to do more, I do it. Those of us who must sit on the couch in front of the fire and catch our breath every once in a while don't want to be yelled at by the mountainclimbers...not unless one of the mountaineers is willing to switch circumstances with one of us....(any takers?....didn't think so).

[Fish and Bread]

John, I'm beginning to get worried about you. Can't you go back east to your family for a bit of support?

The family that routinely threatened to throw me out onto the street? I'll pass. Granted, they claim to have not been serious in retrospect, but nevertheless living with them was a horrendous experience. They provided for most of my physical needs, but were fairly unrelenting in destroying me emotionally. I literally had the same conversation with my mother everyday for five years where she told me what I should be doing with my life even though I'd always try to make her understand my inability to do so because of my health concerns. People would wake me up early just to harass me some more and would start psychotically ranting about things like my closing the blinds in a room because of my eye condition and stuff of that nature to "get [me] going". It was definitely making the difficulties I face in life worse instead of better.

I have two sisters who attend colleges halfway across the country expressly to get as far away from my mother in particular and a third sister who is biding her time until she is old enough to do so . And they're straight A devout Roman Catholics (My parents could be regular posters on OBOB -- the only exception being my mother in particular, who is probably *more* conservative, almost like something out of Europe in the middle ages). One of the sisters even attends Opus Dei retreats and is on her way to both a bachelors and a masters at well-known conservative Roman Catholic instiitutions and my mother still finds fault with her. You can imagine the way I'm thought of!

I was relayed a story just recently about a teenage sister still living in the home who is a big fan of the television series, the Gilmore Girls. My parents sat down to watch with her yesterday and spent the entire time ranting about how disappointed they were that she would watch such trash, claiming they could never trust her again, and just yelling and screaming and carrying on about how evil the show was. Needless to say, she's banned from watching the show ever again, despite it being one of her favorites and despite the fact that it's probably one of the tamest shows on network television (Granted, several characters live together outside of marriage, but there isn't any sex portrayed that I've ever recalled -- it's barely alluded to).

I don't think I am even doing justice to the situation. I wound up living with a woman myself for a while and I was told I was living in sin and so forth. When I was looking into exoteric religions, I was told I would probably burn in hell. As an Anglican, I've been told that my religion is "fake" and is people playing dress up pretending to be Roman Catholics.

They've adopted foreign children who are homeschooled to keep them away from actual human beings, have been shaignhaighed into organizations the Legion of Mary, and are raised so that even some G-rated cartoons are often considered off-limits. When questioned even by my conservative Roman Catholic sisters on the practice, my mother replies that she doesn't want them to be able to relate or socialize with the rest of the world, which she considers evil and corrupt. Even my father has at times jokingly remarked that it's like she's part of some kind of catholic cult, though I don't think he realizes the seriousness of what's going on, even though we've all attempted to tell him. I can remember being little and doing something like riding a bicycle in the driveway and being told I needed to go to confession right away for defying her authority.

Anyhow, yes, out of a sense of duty on their part, I would probably be permitted to live with my parents if I desired to again, but I'd rather be homeless if it came right down to it (And it almost has). I won't go through that again no matter what. Some things are worse than physical discomfort.

My mother fools most of the people most of the time with her public persona, which some have even described as "saintly", but I've talked to a long-time family friend or two who have seen through it and agree with my assessment. Obviously, her public persona makes it difficult to get much sympathy from people who might normally be my support structure with something like this.

I'm very comfortable being 2500 miles away. I almost wish I could be farther. I get along with them a lot better from a distance.

Anyhow, that's probably a little bit too much information, I just wanted to give you more of a sense of why I wouldn't live with them, because I know a shorter explanation would seem less than compelling in terms of seeming adequate.

[Wiffey]

Fish and Bread, you are in my prayers.

[Fish and Bread]

Fish and Bread, you are in my prayers.

Thank you.

[Inside Edge]

That's a lot of info, and it helps put things in context. Praying for you - and with that, I'll try to comment on what pertains to the subject of this thread.

And here comes Christianity threatening me with hell for not following a lot of rules and promising me if I'm really good, I'll have to climb a hard mountain. I'm already climbing a hard mountain, it's called life. And what help is this God? What's his solution? He offers a cross. I already have a cross -- the impossibility of making a living in a society that demands that I do so -- and the likelihood that that'll lead to the streets -- plus the difficulty of find companionship -- and the day to day physical pain I endure. I think I'd rather be a diest -- at least that God isn't trying to make things *harder* on us -- life is hard enough as it is.
No one assumes you're not already facing challenges. The Pope's comment, I think, had nothing to do with someone's current, difficult circumstances. Regardless of a person's hardships, all I think he was getting at was that Christianity will come with its own challenges and struggles. And I don't think it was directly tied to attaining salvation.

Christianity involves growth. When we're children, our bones and muschles ache from nothing more than growth alone (i.e. growing pains). In sports practices and clinics I've taken, the common lesson is that we have to leave our comfort zones in order to heighten our skills. "If you're not falling down when you jump, you're not jumping high enough." In other words, if I only ever jump the height that I know I can land squarely, I'll never really learn to jump higher.

All the Pope - and Christ, the apostles, the bible - are saying with the "cross" or "mountain" talk is that spirituality (while we're on this earth) is much the same. Christianity, being the way to truth, will inevitably result (or maybe even require) us to leave our "spiritual comfort zones" from time to time, in order to grow, to move closer to God. It's just the way life works.

Yes, your life situation is indescribably more difficult than mine. But no one is saying you will be slapped with a whole other host of earthly hardships in order to be Christian. As an Anglican, you should realize that. In fact, I could probably dig up several past posts of yours which say that in much more detail and eloquence.

Which is why this thread caught my attention. You've got your health problems and a rough family/support structure around you. You have unattained goals which are eating away at your ability to experience and enjoy life. And as evidenced on this board, you hash out your spirituality, theological details and your relationship with God regularly.

And you're Christian.

You've been climbing a mountain, just like the Pope said. It's not like Christianity just presents itself and drops you at the foot of the mountain. You just realize, along the way, that the path isn't always level and groomed.

I hate to break it to you, but spiritually speaking, you're normal. I'd welcome you to the mountain trails, but whether you realize it right now or not, you've been on them for some time now. What's more, based on many of your past dissertations, I'm less inclined to welcome you and am more likely to ask you for directions. :)

I think, maybe, you just passed a particularly freaky part of the trail, and maybe you're a bit spooked.

Popes tend to do that to people.

[Fish and Bread]

Praying for you

Thank you.

No one assumes you're not already facing challenges. The Pope's comment, I think, had nothing to do with someone's current, difficult circumstances. Regardless of a person's hardships, all I think he was getting at was that Christianity will come with its own challenges and struggles. And I don't think it was directly tied to attaining salvation.

Christianity involves growth. When we're children, our bones and muschles ache from nothing more than growth alone (i.e. growing pains). In sports practices and clinics I've taken, the common lesson is that we have to leave our comfort zones in order to heighten our skills. "If you're not falling down when you jump, you're not jumping high enough." In other words, if I only ever jump the height that I know I can land squarely, I'll never really learn to jump higher.

All the Pope - and Christ, the apostles, the bible - are saying with the "cross" or "mountain" talk is that spirituality (while we're on this earth) is much the same. Christianity, being the way to truth, will inevitably result (or maybe even require) us to leave our "spiritual comfort zones" from time to time, in order to grow, to move closer to God. It's just the way life works.

Yes, your life situation is indescribably more difficult than mine. But no one is saying you will be slapped with a whole other host of earthly hardships in order to be Christian. As an Anglican, you should realize that. In fact, I could probably dig up several past posts of yours which say that in much more detail and eloquence.

Which is why this thread caught my attention. You've got your health problems and a rough family/support structure around you. You have unattained goals which are eating away at your ability to experience and enjoy life. And as evidenced on this board, you hash out your spirituality, theological details and your relationship with God regularly.

And you're Christian.

You've been climbing a mountain, just like the Pope said. It's not like Christianity just presents itself and drops you at the foot of the mountain. You just realize, along the way, that the path isn't always level and groomed.

I hate to break it to you, but spiritually speaking, you're normal. I'd welcome you to the mountain trails, but whether you realize it right now or not, you've been on them for some time now. What's more, based on many of your past dissertations, I'm less inclined to welcome you and am more likely to ask you for directions. :)

I think, maybe, you just passed a particularly freaky part of the trail, and maybe you're a bit spooked.

Popes tend to do that to people.

I appreciate your kind words and your wisdom. I'll consider what you've said.

[artrx]

You are in my prayers as well, Fish and Bread.