civil marriage?

[kamikat]

Does the Episcopal church recognize civil weddings? If a convert was married civilly prior to joining the Episcopal church, would he need to be have another wedding?

kamikat

[Naomi4Christ]

Yes, of course they do.

[TomUK]

Some choose to have their civil wedding (wedding, not partnership) blessed in a Church. It doesn't change the validity of the wedding however.

[ContraMundum]

I know a couple that have never had a civil marriage. They are always hurling little barbed comments at each other like "you spend too much, woman" and "well, if you weren't such a bludger maybe we could AFFORD to buy more, mister". Very sad. Funny thing is that they love each other.

[Finella]

I think Tom UK has it right -- because a marriage is a legal arrangement, the church would recognize it as such; but the couple would have the option to have the marriage blessed in a short blessing liturgy (you can find it in the Book of Common Prayer). But it's an interesting question -- if the couple never had the marriage blessed, where would it stand, theologically speaking?

I think it speaks to the whole issue of marriage as a legal arrangement as well as a spiritual one... which is a whole big ball of wax.

[Albion]

I think Tom UK has it right -- because a marriage is a legal arrangement, the church would recognize it as such; but the couple would have the option to have the marriage blessed in a short blessing liturgy (you can find it in the Book of Common Prayer). But it's an interesting question -- if the couple never had the marriage blessed, where would it stand, theologically speaking?

I think it speaks to the whole issue of marriage as a legal arrangement as well as a spiritual one... which is a whole big ball of wax.

Theologically, the man and woman marry each other, even if there is the blessing of the church and the services of an ordained officiant. So if there is only a civil ceremony, the church considers it to be entirely valid.

[TomUK]

I spoke a bit sloppily earlier. I meant to say that a civil marriage is valid regardless whether a blessing takes place.

I do wonder however whether we should call it 'marriage' if no religious ceremony is involved.

[Albion]

I spoke a bit sloppily earlier. I meant to say that a civil marriage is valid regardless whether a blessing takes place.

I do wonder however whether we should call it 'marriage' if no religious ceremony is involved.

It's certainly a marriage...but maybe the name "Matrimony"--the BCP term--should be considered inappropriate.

[TomUK]

...especially if you include the traditional preface, holy.

[Fish and Bread]

Marriage is a sacrament between two people and God. It doesn't matter whether it takes place in a court house, a church, or on a beach; and it doesn't matter whether the officiant is a priest, a minister, a judge, a mayor, or your best friend. :) As long as there are two people who love each other and are making a public commitment to love and cherish each other as long as they both shall live, to me, that's a marriage. And I think the Episcopal Church generally recognizes them as such. :) Civil marriages are just as much marriages in the eyes of God as church marriages.

[Thomas2618]

The groom and bride are the celebrants in the sacrament of Marriage. Which is why the Episcopal Church recognizes civil marriages and blesses them. I think that's right

[Inside Edge]

Marriage is a sacrament between two people and God. It doesn't matter whether it takes place in a court house, a church, or on a beach; and it doesn't matter whether the officiant is a priest, a minister, a judge, a mayor, or your best friend]
You may want to add: only if the couple sees it as such.

I know many couples who do not and would not want others to consider their marriage a sacrament, sacred, etc. They chose not to have a priest, pastor, etc, involved, no references to any deity or anything beyond the material.

Even in such an "active" case of denying God - I'm sure the Church still considers the marriage valid, for legal reasons alone.

[CSMR]

I would not say marriage is sacramental. Anyone can get married even if he is a perfect heathen. It is a natural phenomenon.

[TomUK]

How is marriage a natural phenomenon?

[Wiffey]

Like an earthquake?

[TomUK]

:d

[Fish and Bread]

How is marriage a natural phenomenon?

I think what he's getting at is that marriage existed before Christianity and even before what we'd today think of as Judiasm, in even completely pagan societies. A signicant number of humans seem to a certain degree to instinctively want to form monogamous or semi-monogamous pair bonds. When I was an atheist, I still very much hoped that I would one day marry.

[TomUK]

I think what he's getting at is that marriage existed before Christianity and even before what we'd today think of as Judiasm, in even completely pagan societies. A signicant number of humans seem to a certain degree to instinctively want to form monogamous or semi-monogamous pair bonds. When I was an atheist, I still very much hoped that I would one day marry.

Wasn't that born out of the fact that our society naturally recollects its Christian heritage. Marriage seemed right to you because that is the society you were born into; a society shaped by Christianity.

There is nothing 'natural' about marriage - it is one of the many things which distinguishes us from animals (though i'm told that penguin film disagrees with me on that point, but i've not seen it so it doesn't count :P )

[Fish and Bread]

Wasn't that born out of the fact that our society naturally recollects its Christian heritage. Marriage seemed right to you because that is the society you were born into; a society shaped by Christianity.

Didn't the ancient Greeks and Romans and Vikings and Chinese and Indians (Both from India and Native American) marry before exposure to Christianity? They had no Christian heritage to recollect, but nevertheless seemed to have marriage as an important institution, albeit perhaps a slightly different or less valued one than the Christian version in some respects.

[TomUK]

Didn't the ancient Greeks and Romans and Vikings and Chinese and Indians (Both from India and Native American) marry before exposure to Christianity? They had no Christian heritage to recollect, but nevertheless seemed to have marriage as an important institution, albeit perhaps a slightly different or less valued one than the Christian version in some respects.

I was just responding to the fact that you said before you became a Christian you wanted to get married.

[Fish and Bread]

I was just responding to the fact that you said before you became a Christian you wanted to get married.

Well, yeah, but also so did people in cultures without any exposure to Christianity. It seems like the desire to marry is to a certain extent natural.

[CSMR]

Wasn't that born out of the fact that our society naturally recollects its Christian heritage. Marriage seemed right to you because that is the society you were born into; a society shaped by Christianity.

There is nothing 'natural' about marriage - it is one of the many things which distinguishes us from animals (though i'm told that penguin film disagrees with me on that point, but i've not seen it so it doesn't count :P )
Marriage happens in societies whether or not they are shaped by Christianity. A person does not hear the gospel and suddenly find the urge to marry, that is absurd. Now marriages in the world are often very improper with people marrying each other sequentially and without any ceremony so it is a confusion who is married to whom. However that does not mean that marriages do not exist in the world but only in a spiritual sense. And there are countries which you would probably not regard as having a Christian heritage where there are relatively strong families. E.g. middle east, China.