What's your take on Jacob wrestling God?

[brokenheart]

Genesis 32: 24-29
Having posting problems, so hope this works!

I'd like to know everyone's interpretation or understanding of this wrestling match that occurs between Jacob and God. Do you believe it to be a literal wrestling match or is it ONLY spiritual.
I believe that as Christians we wrestle with God every day. Please share your understanding of what is happening in these verses and how it relates to your own relationship with Jesus Christ.

:)

[CrazyforYeshua]

I would think physical, because of this:

Genesis 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Of course, I could be wrong :confused:

[prophecystudent]

I would think physical, because of this:

Genesis 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Of course, I could be wrong :confused:
Also my understanding that it was a physical encounter.

What it tells me is that we can have a physical encounter with God. The difference, perhaps, is that Jacob knew with whom he was wrestling because he refused to quit until his "adversary" blessed him.

Fred

[twistedsketch]

I think Jesus put the pile driver on him.

[aggie03]

Genesis 32: 24-29
Having posting problems, so hope this works!

I'd like to know everyone's interpretation or understanding of this wrestling match that occurs between Jacob and God. Do you believe it to be a literal wrestling match or is it ONLY spiritual.
I believe that as Christians we wrestle with God every day. Please share your understanding of what is happening in these verses and how it relates to your own relationship with Jesus Christ.

:)

Genesis 32:24-30 ASV And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for, said he, I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

There are a variety of ways that this verse can actually be explained, but I do not think that Jacob was actually wrestling with Jehovah God. Perhaps the strongest reason for this is that no one has ever seen the face of God. When Moses was to see God, Moses was not allowed to see God's face:

Exodus 33:19-20 ASV

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.

We have to understand then that if Jacob were to have physically striven Jehovah God that he would have died - unless somehow he was able to do so without seeing the person's face.

We also have to deal with the naming of the place - Peniel - in which JAcob claims to have seen God face to face. This either means that there is a contradiction in the things that God has said or there is a different explanation.

Some of the other explanations that I have heard is that Jacob was actually wrestling with the Christ. Some have suggested that Jacob was wrestling with an angel, as these are often mistaken as being God (there are various places in the Old Testament where this happens). One thing we have to remember is that Jacob was never given the name of the person that he was wrestling with; this means that he really has no idea who it was.

But what about the name Peniel? Jacob was human being, meaning that he can make mistakes. Jacob was also not necessarily inspired (in fact almost certainly was not) when he names the place. We have an inspired record of his naming the place so we know that it really happened, but that does not mean that Jacob was correct in his understanding when he gave the name.

I believe that Jacob was probably wrestling with an angel that was sent by God. I believe this because of the things listed above, and because of what is written in Hosea 12:

Hosea 12:3-5 ASV

In the womb he took his brother by the heel; and in his manhood he had power with God: 4 yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him at Beth-el, and there he spake with us, 5 even Jehovah, the God of hosts; Jehovah is his memorial name.

[Stan53]

Literal. It was both physical and spiritual. It would appear God took a human form at this time.

[tapero]

I think it was also physical meeting and though God could've definitely overpowered Jacob he did not. I think it shows the struggle between our will and God's will. God doesn't go against our will.

Not to change the subject, but it is always Jesus in the ot when one can see God's face. He created all things, including his own body even though he was born later. Jesus always was. That is why men didn't die in the OT when they saw God face to face.

Col 1:15-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

[aggie03]

Hosea 12 states that the encounter took place with an angel. I think to state anything more than that is to speak where the Scriptures are not speaking.

[Stan53]

Aggie03 wrote and I quote:" Hosea 12 states that the encounter took place with and angel" Thanks for that bit of info. I didn't know that.

[aggie03]

Aggie03 wrote and I quote:" Hosea 12 states that the encounter took place with and angel" Thanks for that bit of info. I didn't know that.

No problem! :) I had a question about the exact same thing not too long ago and an older man in my congregation showed me that verse. It seems to sum things up pretty nicely. :)

[vincejohn]

This actually occured and it was an Angel of God. Jacob attacked the Angel because he thought it was his brother Esau or one of Esau's companions, when the light of the Angel was manifest Jacob knew what happened. It was done by God to show Jacob that God is real and physical. This is the truth as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit..

[aggie03]

This actually occured and it was an Angel of God.

I agree with you based off of Hosea 12.

Jacob attacked the Angel because he thought it was his brother Esau or one of Esau's companions

The text that deals with this encounter does not support your conclusion that Jacob attacked anyone. The text says that they were wrestling and it seems as though Jacob was not seeking to kill his adversary. In fact, the only motivation that one could come up with at all during the encounter is that he wanted to be blessed. We are never told who instigated the contest or if it was something that the two agreed upon before starting - and we are never told the motivation.

when the light of the Angel was manifest Jacob knew what happened. It was done by God to show Jacob that God is real and physical.

As far as I can tell, there is no illumination that takes place in the passage either. Please reference Genesis 32. It seems as though Jacob does not know that this was an angel, as noted in Hosea 12, but thinks that he was actually wrestling with God. This would mean that Jacob didn't know what happened.

Your claim that God is physical also contradicts other passages of Scripture which state that God is spirit. Additionally, how would sending an angel prove that God is physical? Wouldn't anything learned from that encounter with regard to physical attributes only apply to the angel?

It also never seems as though Jacob doubts the reality of God throughout his life. Why is it necessary to prove something that he already knows?

This is the truth as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit..

I have noted all of the problems that I have with the things that you stated because you claimed inspiriation from God. This is a strong claim - please back it up. :) If I have misunderstood what you meant by your last comment (which is entirely possible :) ) would you please explain in a clearer way what was intended?

[ritawal]

i often wondered about this verse from time to time too. maybe someone can give us an answer.

[vincejohn]

Even in visual contact with an Angel of God this is also physical contact because it is seen. Jacob did wrestle with a being not a spirit. You say God is not physical and only spirit. Jesus is God the son and he even said in the final kingdom we will eat and drink wine with him in his Fathers Kingdom.

[brokenheart]

Thanks everyone. This has been great, reading everyone's understanding of these verses. For some reason this part of Genesis was very troubling to me for awhile, now it's just interesting.
I've been struggling with God, not physically of course, but spiritually. So... I'm guessing this is why these verses are following my thoughts so deeply. I'm learning how to surrender to His will and it is very painful, but I know once I learn how the rewards will be great.

[tapero]

This post was written by Obadiah at another forum

The "man" Jacob wrestled with

I think we need to view this verse on two levels: history and metaphor. History, in that I believe this event really happened; metaphor, in that I think the significance lies primarily not in the historical event but in how it portrays our relationship with God and His word.

So, what happened? I believe that the "man" who wrestled with Jacob was the Angel of HaShem ("the Angel of the Lord"), whom I in turn believe to be the pre-incarnate Word of God, the Messiah. This is confirmed by Jacob's observation that "I have seen God face to face" and by Hosea's affirmation that Jacob wrestled "with God" (12:3-4). Obviously Christ -- or even just an angel, if it were a mere angel -- is much stronger than Jacob; it only makes sense that He allowed Jacob to defeat Him. That Jacob is, indeed, the inferior in this episode is confirmed by two things. First, the Angel names Jacob (changing his name to Israel); the power to name someone indicates authority over him (e.g., Adam and the animals). Second, the Angel blesses Jacob, and "without contradiction, the lesser is blessed of the greater" (Hebrews 7:7). So Jacob, by the Angel's own holding back, prevails, yet he also is injured in the struggle. Hosea tells us that Jacobn prevailed with God through weeping.

Notice also some interesting backdrop which forms the context for this episode. Jacob's entire life was one of struggle. It began with his wrestling match with Esau from the womb (25:22) and progressed through his striving with Esau over the birthright and blessing (ch.27), and his struggles with his father-in-law, Laban (ch.31). In this scene, Jacob is preparing again for a confrontation with Esau (32:1; 33:1). When he finds himself alone, God intervenes in the person of the "man". Finally, in contrast with his fearful flight under the setting of the sun (28:11), he emerges from this wrestling match as the sun rises upon him (32:32).

This entire episode serves as a picture of our own relationship with God. It takes place at the ford of Jabbok. A ford across a river forms a connection between the two sides, and this event illustrates a connection between the human and the divine. Often in our lives we wrestle with God for answers. We strive to know more of Him. And, yet, as with Jacob, not all the answers are forthcoming. When Jacob asks God His name, he responds not with an answer, but with another question. How often it is that way for us in our relationship with Him as well. The more we search Him, the more we realize there is that we don't know about Him. "Truly You are a God who hides Himself!" exclaimed Isaiah (45:15). And, like Jacob, sometimes our struggles to know the divine even leave us wounded. And yet, left with questions, and even wounds, instead of answers, we are deeply blessed through the experience of God-wrestling. When we hold onto God and don't let go of Him, He must bless us. It's not that He isn't strong enough to break our grasp; He doesn't want to escape our hold.

Also interesting to note is Jacob's name change. From Ya'aqob, 'supplanter, one who makes crooked' to Yisra'el, 'one who prevails, is a prince, with God.' Rashi (medieval Torah commentator par excellence) sees it this way: "no longer will your blessings stem from deviousness ('oqbah, as in Ya'aqob), but from nobility (serarah, as in Yisra'el)." Jacob's wrestling match with God grants him a new name, just as our struggles to comprehend the divine changes our identity. And yet, unlike others with changed names (e.g., Abraham), his original name does not disappear. He is called from this time forth both Israel and Jacob. Similarly, God's transformation of our lives is gradual, not all in one shot. He does not eradicate who we are, but sanctifies us as individuals.

Earlier in my life as a Christian, I always wanted to nail down every detail and synthesize them all into a systematic theology which provides all the answers. As I've grown in grace, I've come to appreciate that, on a deeper level, God is not entirely about answers: He delights in our struggles with the questions. The kind of question which, in the words of a famous hasidic rabbi, is so profound, so wonderful, and so edifying, it would be a shame to trade it for an answer. He has given us clear revelation on the critical issues of faith in Him and walking righteously, but there are so many other issues for us to pursue which don't have simple answers. As the rabbis teach, Torah is not written on white parchment with black ink, but with black fire on white fire.

I hope this is helpful to you. A lot of the ideas I've synthesized from Robert Alter and Karen Armstrong's books on Genesis (integrating the ideas I liked into a much more theologically conservative framework).
And, on name changes: A name change in Scripture is usually to illustrate a purpose in God's dealings with the individual. Abram ('great father') goes to Abraham ('father of many nations'). Also, in that case, the rabbis observe that the letter added to Abram's name is heh, which symbolizes breath. Just as God breathed life into Adam, so His activity in Abram's life has lifted him to a higher spiritual plane.

[aggie03]

Even in visual contact with an Angel of God this is also physical contact because it is seen. Jacob did wrestle with a being not a spirit.

All of these physical things only apply to the angel - which is the being that Jacob wrestled with. Please reference the verse in Hosea that I mentioned earlier :). As Jacob was wrestling with an angel, nothing learned from the encounter about physical properties can be applied to God - those things may only be applied to the angel.

You say God is not physical and only spirit.

Jehovah, God the Father, is spirit. Please reference the words of Christ in John 4:

John 4:24 ESV

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Jesus is God the son and he even said in the final kingdom we will eat and drink wine with him in his Fathers Kingdom.

Jesus is not Jehovah, God the Father, who is spirit. Jesus was also not manifested in a physical body at the time that the encounter with the angel was taking place. As this is the case, there is nothing that the encounter with the angel could have taught Jacob about the "physical nature" of God.

[WesWoodell]

I'd like to know everyone's interpretation or understanding of this wrestling match that occurs between Jacob and God.

I heard Jerry "The King" Lawler did the color commentary.

[SteelDisciple]

"Can you smeeelllll what the Rock is COOKIN'!"