Since we can use non-wheat, non-gluten hosts...?

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Why not grape juice? It doesn't make sense that we have to use wine if we no longer have to use wheat or gluten hosts in the Eucharist. Not that I agree with the practice. :scratch:

[PaladinValer]

Is Outrage!

Jesus used wine.

[Naomi4Christ]

Why not grape juice? It doesn't make sense that we have to use wine if we no longer have to use wheat or gluten hosts in the Eucharist. Not that I agree with the practice. :scratch:

What authority are you referring to?

[ebia]

In what sense are we allowed to use non-wheat bread?

[Mysterium_Fidei]

ECUSA has apparently approved the use of non-wheaten hosts, and hosts made without gluten. Other hosts such as barley, ect, are also able to be used. The Altar Guild Society even has a link to help parishes find gluten free bread: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/altarguild_62766_ENG_HTM.htm

Our own parish was considering barley hosts not too long ago.

[kiwimac]

Please remember that the sacrament is LESS important than the people who partake of it. So providing Gluten-Free hosts for those who are gluten intolerant and grape juice for recovering alcoholics / Alcohol-intolerant folk is the right thing to do.

Kiwimac

[PaladinValer]

Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity is complete in both species.

[ebia]

ECUSA has apparently approved the use of non-wheaten hosts, and hosts made without gluten. Other hosts such as barley, ect, are also able to be used. The Altar Guild Society even has a link to help parishes find gluten free bread: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/altarguild_62766_ENG_HTM.htm

Our own parish was considering barley hosts not too long ago.
Why would you want to go to barley specifically?

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Why would you want to go to barley specifically?
I don't want to, I'm disturbed it was being considered. The historic teaching of the Church seems to indicate wheaten hosts are to be used.

[ebia]

You misunderstand my question. Why would you pick barley specifically (which still contains gluten) over wheat? Gluten free grains I can understand, but not barley.

[kiwimac]

To paraphrase Jesus:

" The sacraments were made for human-kind, not human-kind for the sacraments."

Kiwimac

[UberLutheran]

There are people who cannot eat wheat products in any form -- they lack an enzyme necessary to metabolize the wheat.

Likewise, there are people who lack the enzyme necessary to metabolize the alcohol in wine; as well as recovering alcoholics whose sobriety would be threatened were they to drink wine.

Should these people be denied the Body and Blood of Christ because they cannot metabolize wheat or because they cannot drink wine?

Or do we want to make sure that the greatest number of people can partake in the Eucharist?

Remember: it's GOD who does the work of trans/consubstantianism in the Eucharist; not the actual elements.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

There are people who cannot eat wheat products in any form -- they lack an enzyme necessary to metabolize the wheat.

Likewise, there are people who lack the enzyme necessary to metabolize the alcohol in wine; as well as recovering alcoholics whose sobriety would be threatened were they to drink wine.

Should these people be denied the Body and Blood of Christ because they cannot metabolize wheat or because they cannot drink wine?

Or do we want to make sure that the greatest number of people can partake in the Eucharist?

Remember: it's GOD who does the work of trans/consubstantianism in the Eucharist; not the actual elements.
Still, I think preserving the dignity of the elements is somewhat essential to the Sacrament. One lady at our Church can not receive the Precious Blood do to an allergy involving the accidents; she is still perfectly welcome to receive the host -- which also contains the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord.

[kiwimac]

Fact is some folks are both Gluten and alcohol intolerant. Nope it is best to make allowance for such folk in planning the Eucharist.

[SirTimothy]

I agree 100%! One of the parishes I've attended in the UK has wheat and gluten-free hosts ready for consecration if needed at all times.

Timothy

[Wiffey]

I think it is lovely to have the option of a non-allergenic host for those who cannot digest a regular host. Much better than having wheat/gluten allergic parishioners avoiding Communion to avoid illness.

[higgs2]

Fact is some folks are both Gluten and alcohol intolerant. Nope it is best to make allowance for such folk in planning the Eucharist.
I agree. It repels me to think of turning someone away rather than making accomodations for them.

[PaladinValer]

Each species becomes each the Body and Blood, the Soul and Divinity.

If they cannot have one species, they can get the other.

[SirTimothy]

Each species becomes each the Body and Blood, the Soul and Divinity.

Where does it say that in the Words of Institution? I got the impression Christ said "This is my body" and "this is my blood"... and that with the epiclesis we say "Send your holy spirit on these gifts of bread and wine and grant that they may be to us the Body and Blood of Christ..."

Timothy

[AngCath]

The "recipe" is simple:
Must use bread. Must use wine.

[Naomi4Christ]

Where does it say that in the Words of Institution? I got the impression Christ said "This is my body" and "this is my blood"... and that with the epiclesis we say "Send your holy spirit on these gifts of bread and wine and grant that they may be to us the Body and Blood of Christ..."

Timothy

I think it comes from Roman Catholic practices in order to justify giving the wafer only. Money saving?

[kiwimac]

The "recipe" is simple:
Must use bread. Must use wine.

The recipe is only simple if we do not accept that people who are different have equal need of the sacrament.

Kiwimac

[pmcleanj]

The recipe is only simple if we do not accept that people who are different have equal need of the sacrament.

Kiwimac
I can bake bread, particularly flatbread, with barley. Indeed, do not some translations of the feeding of the five thousand speak of barley-loaves? And I can make currant-wine, or "unfermented wine". I think the simple recipe suffices -- it's complicating the simple recipe with detailed specifications worthy of a formal Request For Proposals that causes the difficulties.

[gitlance]

In such a case as using grape juice or non-gluten hosts with a correctly ordained minister, I believe we could refer to this as a valid, though illicit, Eucharist. (However, you could not find anything in the annals of Church tradition to support the idea that this is still a valid Eucharist.)

Indeed, something like this should only be used in dire emergencies. If an individual cannot have wine/alcohol, they should only receive the Body. If, on the other hand, the individual cannot receive wheat, they should only partake of the Blood.

If in the rare case they can't have either, than special arrangements could indeed be made.

[gitlance]

Where does it say that in the Words of Institution? I got the impression Christ said "This is my body" and "this is my blood"... and that with the epiclesis we say "Send your holy spirit on these gifts of bread and wine and grant that they may be to us the Body and Blood of Christ..."

Timothy

This is a generally-accepted belief held in accord with the Tradition of the Church. This is why the Holy Roman Church refuses to use gluten-free hosts, because they understand that you receive the entire Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity from either element.

Indeed, this was something I learned from the Episcopal priests at my home parish. Further, I have never read anything pertaining to Episcopal Eucharistic doctrine that runs contrary to this.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I just couldn't receive anymore if my parish, for some reason, stopped using wheat bread. I don't know, maybe it's the Catholic in me?

[Counter-Reformer]

I think it comes from Roman Catholic practices in order to justify giving the wafer only. Money saving?
Where do you get that? Though the Church has never restricted the sacred Blood of Christ on the grounds of money. We believe that the wafer upon the consecreation of the mass no longer is just a wafer but is the Flesh of Jesus Christ, body and blood.

[gitlance]

Where do you get that? Though the Church has never restricted the sacred Blood of Christ on the grounds of money. We believe that the wafer upon the consecreation of the mass no longer is just a wafer but is the Flesh of Jesus Christ, body and blood.

Amen. So be it and so be it. Amen!!

:crossrc:

[Naomi4Christ]

Where do you get that? Though the Church has never restricted the sacred Blood of Christ on the grounds of money. We believe that the wafer upon the consecreation of the mass no longer is just a wafer but is the Flesh of Jesus Christ, body and blood.

;)

Call me a cynic then...

[kamikat]

This is a generally-accepted belief held in accord with the Tradition of the Church. This is why the Holy Roman Church refuses to use gluten-free hosts, because they understand that you receive the entire Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity from either element.
.

However, what the Catholic church fails to recognize is that when the priest breaks the host over the chalice, crumbs fall into the wine, which then contaminates it for those of us with celiac disease. Also, if someone who has wheaten crumbs on their mouths, or women with gluten containing lipstick, drink from the chalice, the chalice is then contiaminated with gluten protein. Both my younger son and I have celiac disease and are active in celiac suport groups. The issue of communion comes up on a regular basis.

kamikat

[Naomi4Christ]

However, what the Catholic church fails to recognize is that when the priest breaks the host over the chalice, crumbs fall into the wine, which then contaminates it for those of us with celiac disease. Also, if someone who has wheaten crumbs on their mouths, or women with gluten containing lipstick, drink from the chalice, the chalice is then contiaminated with gluten protein. Both my younger son and I have celiac disease and are active in celiac suport groups. The issue of communion comes up on a regular basis.

kamikat

Ah, those little UHT containers would be perfect for you

[Mysterium_Fidei]

However, what the Catholic church fails to recognize is that when the priest breaks the host over the chalice, crumbs fall into the wine, which then contaminates it for those of us with celiac disease. Also, if someone who has wheaten crumbs on their mouths, or women with gluten containing lipstick, drink from the chalice, the chalice is then contiaminated with gluten protein. Both my younger son and I have celiac disease and are active in celiac suport groups. The issue of communion comes up on a regular basis.

kamikat

Most Roman Catholic Priests will prepare a seperate chalice of the Precious Blood for those with Celiac Disease which has not been exposed to the host, or those who have received it, at all. All one would need to do is call ahead or meet with the priest.

[karen freeinchristman]

DH just came up with a good idea - 'byoe'
'bring your own elements'
(well, I thought it was a good idea)

[Multi-Elis]

My brother is gluten intolerent (cealiac, or however you spell it) and my mother too. When my brother asked the doctor if he should take communion, the good old, catholic background, french doctor said "le Bon Dieu pardonnera" (literally: the Good Lord will pardon", meaning that God, who ordained the sacriment, will have to do his part in protecting the health of gluten intolerants.)
So my brother, twice a month, goes to church, and takes communion.

[kamikat]

My brother is gluten intolerent (cealiac, or however you spell it) and my mother too. When my brother asked the doctor if he should take communion, the good old, catholic background, french doctor said "le Bon Dieu pardonnera" (literally: the Good Lord will pardon", meaning that God, who ordained the sacriment, will have to do his part in protecting the health of gluten intolerants.)
So my brother, twice a month, goes to church, and takes communion.

Some people are more sensitive than others. Also, some, like my son, are also allergic to wheat, in addition to being gluten intolerant. When my son gets a tiny amount of wheat, his throat closes up and he needs a epi shot immediately. On the other hand, I can eat 2-3 bites of bread and only have mild symptoms.
kamikat

[Multi-Elis]

Yes, allergy to wheat makes things worse.
That's like the category of peanuts, which makes it that we have to be very carefull about serving/eating peanut in public. Folks, there is really nothing to be done about that.

[gtsecc]

DH just came up with a good idea - 'byoe'
'bring your own elements'
(well, I thought it was a good idea)
Liturgically, I think we do.
The people that bring up the bread and wine are our representatives. then the Priest says, "
And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to
hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless
and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts
and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them
according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ’s holy institution,
in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers
of his most blessed Body and Blood."