What are the differences?

[Edial]

As a "new" Lutheran I know little concerning its' divisions.
What are the differences between LCMC, ELCA, Word Alone and so forth?

I would appreciate personal explanations and views over lenghty articles and references.

Thanks,
Ed

[SPALATIN]

Lutheran Church in Mission for Christ is an organization of church's that have left the ELCA through Word Alone. Word Alone was organized in 1999 as a group of Lutheran Church's that were against the Call to Common Mission which was a merger of the ELCA and Episcopal Church USA. The reasons were that the ECUSA was stipulating that the ELCA would have to answer to the Historic Episcopate as far as ordination rites. They required that all ELCA pastors being ordained would also have to have an ECUSA bishop ordain them as well. I am sure that Danhead can probably break it down even further here than I can.

[Edial]

Lutheran Church in Mission for Christ is an organization of church's that have left the ELCA through Word Alone. Word Alone was organized in 1999 as a group of Lutheran Church's that were against the Call to Common Mission which was a merger of the ELCA and Episcopal Church USA. The reasons were that the ECUSA was stipulating that the ELCA would have to answer to the Historic Episcopate as far as ordination rites. They required that all ELCA pastors being ordained would also have to have an ECUSA bishop ordain them as well. I am sure that Danhead can probably break it down even further here than I can.
Good, good, thanks.
Danhead?

[IowaLutheran]

Lutheran Church in Mission for Christ is an organization of church's that have left the ELCA through Word Alone. Word Alone was organized in 1999 as a group of Lutheran Church's that were against the Call to Common Mission which was a merger of the ELCA and Episcopal Church USA. The reasons were that the ECUSA was stipulating that the ELCA would have to answer to the Historic Episcopate as far as ordination rites. They required that all ELCA pastors being ordained would also have to have an ECUSA bishop ordain them as well. I am sure that Danhead can probably break it down even further here than I can.

ELCA pastors are to be ordained by a Lutheran bishop in apostolic succession, so ECUSA bishops have been involved in the installation of ELCA bishops, but there is no requirement that an ECUSA bishop be involved in the ordination of ELCA pastors - I know several that have been ordained since 2001 and only an ELCA bishop was present. At the 2001 ELCA assembly a motion passed allowing kind of a "conscientious objector" status, so some ELCA pastors since 2001 have been ordained by other pastors rather than a bishop.

Word Alone is the movement within the ELCA that objected to this practice, and the LCMC is the group of congregations who have either split off from the ELCA or have remained in the ELCA and have dual membership with the LCMC (we just had a discussion on this in another thread; their status as a denomination is confusing because of the dichotomy in membership).

Since, for better or worse, CCM is not going to be rescinded anytime soon, Word Alone shifted its focus about 1-2 years ago from CCM to becoming the leader of the opposition against allowing a local exception whereby non-celibate gays could be ordained. They were successful in getting that proposal shot down at the 2005 assembly.

[Edial]

ELCA pastors are to be ordained by a Lutheran bishop in apostolic succession, so ECUSA bishops have been involved in the installation of ELCA bishops, but there is no requirement that an ECUSA bishop be involved in the ordination of ELCA pastors - I know several that have been ordained since 2001 and only an ELCA bishop was present. At the 2001 ELCA assembly a motion passed allowing kind of a "conscientious objector" status, so some ELCA pastors since 2001 have been ordained by other pastors rather than a bishop.

Word Alone is the movement within the ELCA that objected to this practice, and the LCMC is the group of congregations who have either split off from the ELCA or have remained in the ELCA and have dual membership with the LCMC (we just had a discussion on this in another thread; their status as a denomination is confusing because of the dichotomy in membership).

Since, for better or worse, CCM is not going to be rescinded anytime soon, Word Alone shifted its focus about 1-2 years ago from CCM to becoming the leader of the opposition against allowing a local exception whereby non-celibate gays could be ordained. They were successful in getting that proposal shot down at the 2005 assembly.
Thank you.
Ed

[FreezBee]

The way I read the posts in this thread, the difference between these sub-denominations is purely a matter of ordination of pastors and therefore only organizational. Am I reading correctly?

- FreezBee

[filosofer]

I think you would find Word Alone has more differences, specifically with regard to the authority of Scripture.

Just to help round out the picture, there were some congregations in the ALC (1960) who refused to follow the direction of the merger in ELCA and formed TAALC (http://www.taalc.org/) [The American Association of Lutheran Churches] in 1987. TAALC reacted against the "Bible contains the Word of God", rather confessing "the Bible is the Word of God". Over the years it has slowly matured so that it now is becoming a more fully developed expression of what it means to be Lutheran. TAALC and LCMS have been in discussions about altar and pulpit fellowship - another meeting is scheduled for March.

In Christ's love,
filo

[FreezBee]

I think you would find Word Alone has more differences, specifically with regard to the authority of Scripture.

Just to help round out the picture, there were some congregations in the ALC (1960) who refused to follow the direction of the merger in ELCA and formed TAALC (http://www.taalc.org/) [The American Association of Lutheran Churches] in 1987. TAALC reacted against the "Bible contains the Word of God", rather confessing "the Bible is the Word of God". Over the years it has slowly matured so that it now is becoming a more fully developed expression of what it means to be Lutheran. TAALC and LCMS have been in discussions about altar and pulpit fellowship - another meeting is scheduled for March.

In Christ's love,
filo


Ok, thanks for the info :thumbsup:

- FreezBee

[Edial]

I think you would find Word Alone has more differences, specifically with regard to the authority of Scripture.

Just to help round out the picture, there were some congregations in the ALC (1960) who refused to follow the direction of the merger in ELCA and formed TAALC (http://www.taalc.org/) [The American Association of Lutheran Churches] in 1987. TAALC reacted against the "Bible contains the Word of God", rather confessing "the Bible is the Word of God". Over the years it has slowly matured so that it now is becoming a more fully developed expression of what it means to be Lutheran. TAALC and LCMS have been in discussions about altar and pulpit fellowship - another meeting is scheduled for March.

In Christ's love,
filo

Now this is interesting.
Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

The way I read the posts in this thread, the difference between these sub-denominations is purely a matter of ordination of pastors and therefore only organizational. Am I reading correctly?

- FreezBee
I am not sure about that.
My understanding is that cerain ones are more concervative than the others.
So the ordination of pastors does not seem to be a primary difference.

Thanks,
Ed

[FreezBee]

I am not sure about that.
My understanding is that cerain ones are more concervative than the others.
So the ordination of pastors does not seem to be a primary difference.

Yes, maybe, but from the above posts I got the impression that that was the defining differences. Of course, it's a symptom, so therefore I was interedsted what was behind those ordination differences.

- FreezBee

[Knowledge3]

As a "new" Lutheran I know little concerning its' divisions.
What are the differences between LCMC, ELCA, Word Alone and so forth?

I would appreciate personal explanations and views over lenghty articles and references.

Thanks,
Ed



The LCMS is the Missouri Synod and the ECLA, LCMS are Iowa, Minnesota branching into the north/northeastern congegrations of the presiding Lutheran assembly/board in America

The Holy Synod of Lutheran Pastors and Bishops are a panel of men who have religious doctorates and/or some form of background in theological learning

The Missouri Synod was pioneered, and brought to American shores , as were the Episcopal and First Christian churches of the British flavor -- As our founding fathers who wrote the Independence and other important articles were founded on the notion of given basic rights to human freedoms by our Creator

Lutheranism is both german and european in origin

I believe that core of Lutheran theology consists of Christ Alone, and Christ alone is Victor and Holy Scripture is the foundation of the core doctrine as Martin Luther, the Augustinian monk developed the original doctrine

Luther developed a theological branch of the Ancient Church Catholic, and as one digs into Church History, the result of the Reformation and regional wars were a matter of territorial disputes during the religious revolts of the Emperor ands military leaders

St. Augustine, John Wesley and other Western pioneers fathered the Western church

[Edial]

The LCMS is the Missouri Synod and the ECLA, LCMS are Iowa, Minnesota branching into the north/northeastern congegrations of the presiding Lutheran assembly/board in America

The Holy Synod of Lutheran Pastors and Bishops are a panel of men who have religious doctorates and/or some form of background in theological learning

The Missouri Synod was pioneered, and brought to American shores , as were the Episcopal and First Christian churches of the British flavor -- As our founding fathers who wrote the Independence and other important articles were founded on the notion of given basic rights to human freedoms by our Creator

Lutheranism is both german and european in origin

I believe that core of Lutheran theology consists of Christ Alone, and Christ alone is Victor and Holy Scripture is the foundation of the core doctrine as Martin Luther, the Augustinian monk developed the original doctrine

Luther developed a theological branch of the Ancient Church Catholic, and as one digs into Church History, the result of the Reformation and regional wars were a matter of territorial disputes during the religious revolts of the Emperor ands military leaders

St. Augustine, John Wesley and other Western pioneers fathered the Western church



Thank you very much. :)

Ed

[LutherNut]

I think you would find Word Alone has more differences, specifically with regard to the authority of Scripture.


Does Word Alone still hold to the ordination of women?

Just to help round out the picture, there were some congregations in the ALC (1960) who refused to follow the direction of the merger in ELCA and formed TAALC (http://www.taalc.org/) [The American Association of Lutheran Churches] in 1987. TAALC reacted against the "Bible contains the Word of God", rather confessing "the Bible is the Word of God". Over the years it has slowly matured so that it now is becoming a more fully developed expression of what it means to be Lutheran. TAALC and LCMS have been in discussions about altar and pulpit fellowship - another meeting is scheduled for March.


I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up at the next LCMS convention next year.

[filosofer]

The LCMS is the Missouri Synod and the ECLA, LCMS are Iowa, Minnesota branching into the north/northeastern congegrations of the presiding Lutheran assembly/board in America

I'm curious about these rather cryptic remarks. Not exactly accurate as stated. Can you clarify?



The Holy Synod of Lutheran Pastors and Bishops are a panel of men who have religious doctorates and/or some form of background in theological learning

Can you expand on this a bit?


The Missouri Synod was pioneered, and brought to American shores , as were the Episcopal and First Christian churches of the British flavor -- As our founding fathers who wrote the Independence and other important articles were founded on the notion of given basic rights to human freedoms by our Creator

Are you confusing Missouri Synod with earlier Lutheran immigrations?


Lutheranism is both german and european in origin

Sort of... but if you read The Book of Concord (subtitled, "The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church") you will discover that the roots of the confession of the faith are neither German, nor European.

I believe that core of Lutheran theology consists of Christ Alone, and Christ alone is Victor and Holy Scripture is the foundation of the core doctrine as Martin Luther, the Augustinian monk developed the original doctrine


And more, God's gracious gift of what Christ has done for sinners. That is the heart and sole of the faith is "justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, based on Scripture alone".

In Christ's love anservice,
filo

[Protoevangel]

Does Word Alone still hold to the ordination of women?
I had a discussion with Mark Chavez, the director of Word Alone about the subject, and I know that he is pro-women's ordination.

They also have women board members who are Pastors. I have talked with Jaynan Clark Egland, who is the pastor of Prince of Peace Lutheran Church in Nine Mile Falls, WA, and the Word Alone President. Board member Mary Jane Haemig is an associate pastor as well.

Still, this is about the closest thing the ELCA has to a conservative movement. From where they are starting, they are certianly pointing the right direction, but I am afraid their confessional stance is on shakey ground.

[AngelusSax]

I had a discussion with Mark Chavez, the director of Word Alone about the subject, and I know that he is pro-women's ordination.

:clap:

[Edial]

I'm curious about these rather cryptic remarks. Not exactly accurate as stated. Can you clarify?





Can you expand on this a bit?




Are you confusing Missouri Synod with earlier Lutheran immigrations?




Sort of... but if you read The Book of Concord (subtitled, "The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church") you will discover that the roots of the confession of the faith are neither German, nor European.




And more, God's gracious gift of what Christ has done for sinners. That is the heart and sole of the faith is "justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, based on Scripture alone".

In Christ's love anservice,
filo

Thank you for your observations.
Actually, "cryptic remarks" are appreciated by someone as new to Lutheranism as I am. :)
Although the Knowledge3 was incomplete in his notes due to its' brevity, was he incorrect?
And if so, where?

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

I had a discussion with Mark Chavez, the director of Word Alone about the subject, and I know that he is pro-women's ordination.

They also have women board members who are Pastors. I have talked with Jaynan Clark Egland, who is the pastor of Prince of Peace Lutheran Church in Nine Mile Falls, WA, and the Word Alone President. Board member Mary Jane Haemig is an associate pastor as well.

Still, this is about the closest thing the ELCA has to a conservative movement. From where they are starting, they are certianly pointing the right direction, but I am afraid their confessional stance is on shakey ground.
Maybe filo means that the Word Alone adheres to the authority of Scriptures more than the others that I mentioned.

But if they ordain women (which is a stamp of spiritual authority over all that are under them), they certainly do not see the Scriptures proper intent.

Thanks for this. :)

Ed

[LutherNut]

I had a discussion with Mark Chavez, the director of Word Alone about the subject, and I know that he is pro-women's ordination.

Then perhaps "Word Alone" is an improper moniker... unless it's something other than God's Word alone.:)

[Knowledge3]

I'm curious about these rather cryptic remarks. Not exactly accurate as stated. Can you clarify?



My logic is as follows: The Lutheran Church is German and European in origin, Luther had written the 95 theses in German, therefore Lutheran doctrine is German and European as is the Protestant Reformation




Can you expand on this a bit?



There is a board and assembly of Lutheran Bishops who govern and decide in political matters of the various assemblies for the LCMS,ECLA, and WELS?

I have little knowledge of eclessiology or the LCMS system






Are you confusing Missouri Synod with earlier Lutheran immigrations?


The Missouri Synod was pioneered by American immigrants whose origins were from Germany and Europe? Or -- American settlers had come together and formed the first Lutheran mission?




Sort of... but if you read The Book of Concord (subtitled, "The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church") you will discover that the roots of the confession of the faith are neither German, nor European.


Then what are the roots of the confessions? From the ancient Catholic Church and the Early Church of Native Christianity? As I understand Church History, the Lutheran Church is native to the Catholic Church, the Emperor Charles had attempted to eradicate Lutherans by military force --





And more, God's gracious gift of what Christ has done for sinners. That is the heart and sole of the faith is "justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, based on Scripture alone".

In Christ's love anservice,
filo



I agree

The Pastor is the authority in defining doctrine and interpreting Scripture correct? If God gives me authority, where does this authority lead?

Authority to establish a healthy congregration is found in the apostolic source of Christ, so what is your advice and direction in the establishment of this much needed change? Christ said to let your light shine before men -- In what ways could we develop this?

[filosofer]

My logic is as follows: The Lutheran Church is German and European in origin, Luther had written the 95 theses in German, therefore Lutheran doctrine is German and European as is the Protestant Reformation

While Luther wrote in German he also wrote in Latin. And the Augsburg Confession was written in both Latin and German and both are official doctrinal statements of the Confessions. The doctrines confessed have nothing to do with Saxony (where Luther lived), nor with German origin. The whole point of the Confessions is to show that what Luther and others publicly confessed was exactly what the Scriptures teach and the Early Church had confessed (whether North Africa, Paelstine, Asia Minor, Greece, Italy, etc.). And the Confession is consistent with the ancient Creeds - the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds are part of the Book of Concord.



There is a board and assembly of Lutheran Bishops who govern and decide in political matters of the various assemblies for the LCMS,ECLA, and WELS?

I have little knowledge of eclessiology or the LCMS system



It appears you are confused about what the "assembly of Lutheran Bishops" is. There is NO "board and assembly of Lutheran Bishops who govern and decide in political matters of the various assemblies for the LCMS, ECLA, and WELS". Never has been.

Or do you mean the Bishops of the ELCA? Yes, they have authority over the churches in the ELCA.

They do not have jurisdiction, authority, or input to the LCMS, WELS, TAALC, or any other church body. These other church bodies are not run by bishops. There is a combination of congregational autonomy and extra-congregation (Synod) structure. But each church body is organized differently.



The Missouri Synod was pioneered by American immigrants whose origins were from Germany and Europe? Or -- American settlers had come together and formed the first Lutheran mission?


The Saxon immigrants who settled in the area around and south of St. Louis were one third of the group that formed the Lutheran Church of Missouri, Ohio, and Other States (now known as LCMS or informally as Missouri Synod). But there was also a group in the Fort Wayne area prominent in the founding of the LCMS and another group in Ohio. And my point was that the Missouri Synod did not come into existence until 1847.

There were many Lutherans in the US in the 1700's, and some of them had a role in the War of Independence - some fought for the British, some for the Colonies, and some were neutral. But the Missouri Synod was not part of that, since it came on the scene 73 after the beginning of the War of Independence.


Then what are the roots of the confessions? From the ancient Catholic Church and the Early Church of Native Christianity? As I understand Church History, the Lutheran Church is native to the Catholic Church, the Emperor Charles had attempted to eradicate Lutherans by military force --


See my comments above.


The Pastor is the authority in defining doctrine and interpreting Scripture correct? If God gives me authority, where does this authority lead?

Authority to establish a healthy congregration is found in the apostolic source of Christ, so what is your advice and direction in the establishment of this much needed change? Christ said to let your light shine before men -- In what ways could we develop this?



While this commonly assumed, pastors do not have the right to define doctrine.

In Christ's love,
filo

[Protoevangel]

2. Since you are a woman, it seems doubly inapropriate.

Knowledge3 vbmenu_register("postmenu_21851948", true);
Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum
23 http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/Male.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/Lutheran.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/flags/Israel.gif

Looks male to me...

...Not only that, but several prophets have been women... And the New Testament is not silent about prophets or prophetesses.

"When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais, and after greeting the brethren, we stayed with them for a day. On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses."
- Acts 21:7-9

"But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved."
- 1 Corinthians 11:5

[LilLamb219]

LOL Ok, ok, looks like I needed to really check for myself and not rely on what others say. Yep, Knowledge3 is male!

In a way, when reading what he said concerning "prophet" it seemed to be describing the vocation of pastor. That's why I agreed with Edial. But, since he's a guy, well, that changes the story...except for the part where he doesn't believe he's forgiven.