Athanasian Creed and John 14:28 - in contradiction?

[ILoveYeshua]

From the Athanasian Creed:

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

From the Scriptures:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

With the strongs word for "greater" here being

G3187
μείζων
meizōn
mide'-zone
Irregular comparative of G3173; larger (literally or figuratively, specifically in age): - elder, greater (-est), more.


From the Gill Commentary on that verse:

for my Father is greater than I:
not with respect to the divine nature, which is common to them both, and in which they are both one; and the Son is equal to the Father, having the self-same essence, perfections, and glory: nor with respect to personality, the Son is equally a divine person, as the Father is, though the one is usually called the first, the other the second person; yet this priority is not of nature, which is the same in both; nor of time, for the one did not exist before the other; nor of causality, for the Father is not the cause of the Son's existence; nor of dignity, for the one has not any excellency which is wanting in the other; but of order and manner of operation: these words are to be understood, either with regard to the human nature, in which he was going to the Father, this was prepared for him by the Father, and strengthened and supported by him, and in which he was made a little lower than the angels, and consequently must be in it inferior to his Father; or with regard to his office as Mediator, in which he was the Father's servant, was set up and sent forth by him, acted under him, and in obedience to him, and was now returning to give an account of his work and service; or rather with regard to his present state, which was a state of humiliation: he was attended with many griefs and sorrows, and exposed to many enemies, and about to undergo an accursed death; whereas his Father was in the most perfect happiness and glory, and so in this sense "greater". That is, more blessed and glorious than he; for this is not a comparison of natures, or of persons, but of states and conditions: now he was going to the Father to partake of the same happiness and glory with him, to be glorified with himself, with the same glory he had with him before the foundation of the world; wherefore on this account, his disciples ought to have rejoiced, and not have mourned.



From the Barnes commentary:

For my Father is greater than I - The object of Jesus here is not to compare his nature with that of the Father, but his condition. Ye would rejoice that I am to leave this state of suffering and humiliation, and resume that glory which I had with the Father before the world was. You ought to rejoice at my exaltation to bliss and glory with the Father (Professor Stuart). The object of this expression is to console the disciples in view of his absence. This he does by saying that if he goes away, the Holy Spirit will descend, and great success will attend the preaching of the gospel, Joh_16:7-10. In the plan of salvation the Father is represented as giving the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the various blessings of the gospel. As the Appointer, the Giver, the Originator, he may be represented as in office superior to the Son and the Holy Spirit. The discourse has no reference, manifestly, to the nature of Christ, and cannot therefore be adduced to prove that he is not divine. Its whole connection demands that we interpret it as relating solely to the imparting of the blessings connected with redemption, in which the Son is represented all along as having been sent or given, and in this respect as sustaining a relation subordinate to the Father.

------

My questions:

1) Does that verse in fact contradict with the Athanasian creed? (and does it matter?)

2) Is Gill and/or Barnes right? (taken from e-sword)

3) Can someone help me figure this out? please? thanks!

[ILoveYeshua]

here are other places where greater 3187 is used in the new testament:

(Matthew 11:11) Verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 Among1722 them that are born1084 of women1135 there hath not3756 risen1453 a greater3187 than John2491 the3588 Baptist:910 notwithstanding1161 he that is least3398 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven3772 is2076 greater3187 than he.846

(Matthew 12:6) But1161 I say3004 unto you,5213 That3754 in this place5602 is2076 one greater3187 than the3588 temple.2411

(Matthew 13:32) Which3739 indeed3303 is2076 the least3398 of all3956 seeds:4690 but1161 when3752 it is grown,837 it is2076 the greatest3187 among herbs,3001 and2532 becometh1096 a tree,1186 so that5620 the3588 birds4071 of the3588 air3772 come2064 and2532 lodge2681 in1722 the3588 branches2798 thereof.846

(Matthew 18:1) At1722 the same1565 time5610 came4334 the3588 disciples3101 unto Jesus,2424 saying,3004 Who5101, (686) is2076 the greatest3187 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven?3772

(Matthew 18:4) Whosoever3748 therefore3767 shall humble5013 himself1438 as5613 this5124 little child,3813 the same3778 is2076 greatest3187 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven.3772

(Matthew 23:11) But1161 he that is greatest3187 among you5216 shall be2071 your5216 servant.1249

(Matthew 23:17) Ye fools3474 and2532 blind:5185 for1063 whether5101 is2076 greater,3187 the3588 gold,5557 or2228 the3588 temple3485 that sanctifieth37 the3588 gold?5557

(Matthew 23:19) Ye fools3474 and2532 blind:5185 for1063 whether5101 is greater,3187 the3588 gift,1435 or2228 the3588 altar2379 that sanctifieth37 the3588 gift1435

(Mark 4:32) But2532 when3752 it is sown,4687 it groweth up,305 and2532 becometh1096 greater3187 than all3956 herbs,3001 and2532 shooteth out4160 great3173 branches;2798 so that5620 the3588 fowls4071 of the3588 air3772 may1410 lodge2681 under5259 the3588 shadow4639 of it.846

(Mark 9:34) But1161 they3588 held their peace:4623 for1063 by1722 the3588 way3598 they had disputed1256 among4314 themselves,240 who5101 should be the greatest.3187

(Mark 12:31) And2532 the second1208 is like,3664 namely this,3778 Thou shalt love25 thy4675 neighbor4139 as5613 thyself.4572 There is2076 none3756 other243 commandment1785 greater3187 than these.5130

(Luke 7:28) For1063 I say3004 unto you,5213 Among1722 those that are born1084 of women1135 there is2076 not3762 a greater3187 prophet4396 than John2491 the3588 Baptist:910 but1161 he that is least3398 in1722 the3588 kingdom932 of God2316 is2076 greater3187 than he.846

(Luke 9:46) Then1161 there arose1525 a reasoning1261 among1722 them,846 which5101 of them846 should be1498 greatest.3187

(Luke 12:18) And2532 he said,2036 This5124 will I do:4160 I will pull down2507 my3450 barns,596 and2532 build3618 greater;3187 and2532 there1563 will I bestow4863 all3956 my3450 fruits1081 and2532 my3450 goods.18

(Luke 22:24) And1161 there was1096 also2532 a strife5379 among1722 them,846 which5101 of them846 should be accounted1380 the(1511) greatest.3187

(Luke 22:26) But1161 ye5210 shall not3756 be so:3779 but235 he that is greatest3187 among1722 you,5213 let him be1096 as5613 the3588 younger;3501 and2532 he that is chief,2233 as5613 he that doth serve.1247

(Luke 22:27) For1063 whether5101 is greater,3187 he that sitteth at meat,345 or2228 he that serveth?1247 is not3780 he that sitteth at meat?345 but1161 I1473 am1510 among1722, 3319 you5216 as5613 he that serveth.1247

(John 1:50) Jesus2424 answered611 and2532 said2036 unto him,846 Because3754 I said2036 unto thee,4671 I saw1492 thee4571 under5270 the3588 fig tree,4808 believest4100 thou? thou shalt see3700 greater things3187 than these.5130

(John 4:12) Art1488 thou4771 (3361) greater3187 than our2257 father3962 Jacob,2384 which3739 gave1325 us2254 the3588 well,5421 and2532 drank4095 thereof1537, 846 himself,846 and2532 his846 children,5207 and2532 his846 cattle?2353

(John 5:20) For1063 the3588 Father3962 loveth5368 the3588 Son,5207 and2532 showeth1166 him846 all things3956 that3739 himself846 doeth:4160 and2532 he will show1166 him846 greater3187 works2041 than these,5130 that2443 ye5210 may marvel.2296

(John 5:36) But1161 I1473 have2192 greater3187 witness3141 than that of John:2491 for1063 the3588 works2041 which3739 the3588 Father3962 hath given1325 me3427 to2443 finish,5048 the(846) same846 works2041 that3739 I1473 do,4160 bear witness3140 of4012 me,1700 that3754 the3588 Father3962 hath sent649 me.3165

(John 8:53) Art1488 (3361) thou4771 greater3187 than our2257 father3962 Abraham,11 which3748 is dead?599 and2532 the3588 prophets4396 are dead:599 whom5101 makest4160 thou4771 thyself?4572

(John 10:29) My3450 Father,3962 which3739 gave1325 them me,3427 is2076 greater3187 than all;3956 and2532 no3762 man is able1410 to pluck726 them out of1537 my3450 Father's3962 hand.5495

(John 13:16) Verily,281 verily,281 I say3004 unto you,5213 The servant1401 is2076 not3756 greater3187 than his848 lord;2962 neither3761 he that is sent652 greater3187 than he that sent3992 him.846

(John 14:12) Verily,281 verily,281 I say3004 unto you,5213 He that believeth4100 on1519 me,1691 the3588 works2041 that3739 I1473 do4160 shall he do also;2548, 4160 and2532 greater3187 works than these5130 shall he do;4160 because3754 I1473 go4198 unto4314 my3450 Father.3962

(John 14:28) Ye have heard191 how3754 I1473 said2036 unto you,5213 I go away,5217 and2532 come2064 again unto4314 you.5209 If1487 ye loved25 me,3165 ye would rejoice,5463, 302 because3754 I said,2036 I go4198 unto4314 the3588 Father:3962 for3754 my3450 Father3962 is2076 greater3187 than I.3450

(John 15:13) Greater3187 love26 hath2192 no man3762 than this,5026 that2443 a man5100 lay down5087 his848 life5590 for5228 his848 friends.5384

(John 15:20) Remember3421 the3588 word3056 that3739 I1473 said2036 unto you,5213 The servant1401 is2076 not3756 greater3187 than his848 lord.2962 If1487 they have persecuted1377 me,1691 they will also2532 persecute1377 you;5209 if1487 they have kept5083 my3450 saying,3056 they will keep5083 yours5212 also.2532

(John 19:11) Jesus2424 answered,611 Thou(3756) couldest have2192 no3762 power1849 at all against2596 me,1700 except1487, 3361 it were2258 given1325 thee4571 from above:509 therefore1223, 5124 he that delivered3860 me3165 unto thee4571 hath2192 the greater3187 sin.266

(Romans 9:12) It was said4483 unto her,846 The3588 elder3187 shall serve1398 the3588 younger.1640

(1 Corinthians 13:13) And1161 now3570 abideth3306 faith,4102 hope,1680 charity,26 these5023 three;5140 but1161 the greatest3187 of these5130 is charity.26

(1 Corinthians 14:5) I(1161) would2309 that ye5209 all3956 spake2980 with tongues,1100 but1161 rather3123 that2443 ye prophesied:4395 for1063 greater3187 is he that prophesieth4395 than2228 he that speaketh,2980 with tongues,1100 except1622, 1508 he interpret,1329 that2443 the3588 church1577 may receive2983 edifying.3619

(Hebrews 6:13) For1063 when God2316 made promise1861 to Abraham,11 because1893 he could2192 swear3660 by2596 no3762 greater,3187 he swore3660 by2596 himself,1438

(Hebrews 6:16) For1063 men444 verily3303 swear3660 by2596 the3588 greater:3187 and2532 an oath3727 for1519 confirmation951 is to them846 an end4009 of all3956 strife.485

(Hebrews 9:11) But1161 Christ5547 being come3854 a high priest749 of good things18 to come,3195 by1223 a greater3187 and2532 more perfect5046 tabernacle,4633 not3756 made with hands,5499 that is to say,5123 not3756 of this5026 building;2937

(Hebrews 11:26) Esteeming2233 the3588 reproach3680 of Christ5547 greater3187 riches4149 than the3588 treasures2344 in1722 Egypt:125 for1063 he had respect578 unto1519 the3588 recompense of the reward.3405

(James 3:1) My3450 brethren,80 be1096 not3361 many4183 masters,1320 knowing1492 that3754 we shall receive2983 the greater3187 condemnation.2917

(James 4:6) But1161 he giveth1325 more3187 grace.5485 Wherefore1352 he saith,3004 God2316 resisteth498 the proud,5244 but1161 giveth1325 grace5485 unto the humble.5011

(2 Peter 2:11) Whereas3699 angels,32 which are5607 greater3187 in power2479 and2532 might,1411 bring5342 not3756 railing989 accusation2920 against2596 them846 before3844 the Lord.2962

(1 John 3:20) For3754 if1437 our2257 heart2588 condemn2607 us,(3754) God2316 is2076 greater3187 than our2257 heart,2588 and2532 knoweth1097 all things.3956

(1 John 4:4) Ye5210 are2075 of1537 God,2316 little children,5040 and2532 have overcome3528 them:846 because3754 greater3187 is2076 he3588 that is in1722 you,5213 than2228 he3588 that is in1722 the3588 world.2889

(1 John 5:9) If1487 we receive2983 the3588 witness3141 of men,444 the3588 witness3141 of God2316 is2076 greater:3187 for3754 this3778 is2076 the3588 witness3141 of God2316 which3739 he hath testified3140 of4012 his848 Son.5207

[KEPLER]

My questions:

1) Does that verse in fact contradict with the Athanasian creed? (and does it matter?)

2) Is Gill and/or Barnes right? (taken from e-sword)

3) Can someone help me figure this out? please? thanks!
ILoveYeshua,

The Creed is speaking of Christ in His resurrected, glorified, ascended, exalted state "at the Right Hand of the Father".

While in His earthly ministry, we are told (in Philippians) that Jesus "emptied himself":
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. Phillipians 2:5-7
This passage is sometimes referred to as the Kenotic Hymn. The extent to which Jesus "made himself nothing" is not revealed to us, so speculation about degrees of "greatness" can only ever be just that: speculation.

We are much better off safeguarding the Incarnation by saying "God suffered on the Cross" than by trying to start with the assumption that god cannot suffer, and therefore Jesus could not really be God while He was on the Cross. That conclusion is heresy.

It's MUCH better to say "Yes, God suffered, but I can't explain how" than to try to explain how and wander off into some ancient heresy.

Hope that helps...

Kepler

[Willtor]

Yes. Athanasius actually debated this point (among others) with Arius. He pointed to the fact that Christ emptied himself and made himself less (taking on the form of a slave, and all that). Not that the Son is intrinsically less than the Father, but that he became less.

[ILoveYeshua]

Yes, very helpful, I hope I can get some more viewpoints on this as well, even again from willtor and kepler, if you can think of anything to add.

btw, I've spent most of my churchgoing in LCMS churches tho i've also visited an ELCA one 7-9 times, a witness lee "local chuch" maybe 20 times, an Rcc church 2-3 times. Personally, I love how the LCMS liturgy (is that the word) goes, with all the scripture reading and hymns. Though I wish there was some time that the congregation could stand up and give a testimony.

That was one thing I liked about the "local church" was that part-way through anyone could stand up and share an experience or something else or could request "why dont we sing hymn #123?" It had a more family-feel than most churches i've gone to. But the downside of them was that we were solely in the book of galatians for like, 3 months. and i didnt like their communion practice. LCMS only uses wine right? i prefer that...

anyway, I hope to hear more from y'all! have a superb day.

[Willtor]

Athanasius' writings (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/TOC.htm) are all online. Also, there's a book called, "The Trinitarian Faith," by T.F. Torrance, which gives an in-depth view of the development of Church doctrines, through the early fifth century (I don't think he quotes many people after that period, if I recall).

In short, here's the doctrine of the Trinity:

There is one God. He manifests Himself in 3 Divine Persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The Father eternally begets the Son. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Son and Spirit are coeternal with the Father.

The Father is fully God. The Father is everything that the Son and Spirit are, except Son and Spirit.

The Son is fully God. The Son is everything that the Father and Spirit are, except Father and Spirit.

The Spirit is fully God. The Spirit is everything that the Father and Son are, except Father and Son.

I could write more about the doctrine of the Trinity, but I'd basically be rewriting what has already been written. And I'm not as qualified an author as either of the people I've cited. ;)

[BelindaP]

Yes, very helpful, I hope I can get some more viewpoints on this as well, even again from willtor and kepler, if you can think of anything to add.

btw, I've spent most of my churchgoing in LCMS churches tho i've also visited an ELCA one 7-9 times, a witness lee "local chuch" maybe 20 times, an Rcc church 2-3 times. Personally, I love how the LCMS liturgy (is that the word) goes, with all the scripture reading and hymns. Though I wish there was some time that the congregation could stand up and give a testimony.

That was one thing I liked about the "local church" was that part-way through anyone could stand up and share an experience or something else or could request "why dont we sing hymn #123?" It had a more family-feel than most churches i've gone to. But the downside of them was that we were solely in the book of galatians for like, 3 months. and i didnt like their communion practice. LCMS only uses wine right? i prefer that...

anyway, I hope to hear more from y'all! have a superb day.
I can speak to the wine question. At this time, most LCMS churches offer primarily wine, but keep some grape juice for those who are alcoholics or who, for other reasons, do not wish to partake in the wine. When you confer with the pastor about communion, he will better explain the local church's practices.

[dinkime]

i was going to say, Jesus said this at a time when he was humble and a man, so at that time, God was greater.

[filosofer]

Greater in regards to his manhood, equal in regards to his godhood.

In Christ's love,
filo

[dinkime]

Greater in regards to his manhood, equal in regards to his godhood.

In Christ's love,
filo



:amen:

[TheCosmicGospel]

Jesus speaking in John 14 puts Him before the cross and on His way to die. It fits well with the understanding found in John 8: 49-50

I HONOR MY FATHER....BUT I DO NOT SEEK MY GLORY

Athanasius speaks to the full revelation of who Jesus was, is, and always will be. There is no contradiction.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

[Studeclunker]

The situation that Christ was in at the time of your exahustive examples, has been answered.
Still, it's wise to keep in mind the reason for each of the three creeds. Each was to answer to a current heresy:
The Athanasian Creed was to answer Arianism.
The Nicean creed was Gnosticism.
The Apostles creed was a simple statement of faith, setting themselves forever apart from the Jewish traditions.

I'm not a church scholar(not that I wouldn't like to be), and I've probably got some of this wrong. Please, anyone, feel free to correct me. Still, I think I've addressed the basic issue; the Creeds were created to specifically answer current problems with doctrine and theology in the church of that time. The Athanasian creed does this exhaustively. :eek: :scratch: :yawn: :sleep:

[filosofer]

Still, it's wise to keep in mind the reason for each of the three creeds.
Each was to answer to a current heresy:
The Athanasian Creed was to answer Arianism
The Nicean creed was Gnosticism.
The Apostles creed was a simple statement of faith, setting themselves forever apart from the Jewish traditions.

I'm not a church scholar(not that I wouldn't like to be), and I've probably got some of this wrong. Please, anyone, feel free to correct me. Still, I think I've addressed the basic issue; the Creeds were created to specifically answer current problems with doctrine and theology in the church of that time. The Athanasian creed does this exhaustively.


I think you left out a word

The Nicean creed was Gnosticism.

Should be

The Nicean creed was an answer to Gnosticism.

Actually the Nicene Creed was the first official challenge to Arius and his teaching. Afterward, the Athanasian Creed developed as a response to the continuing struggle with Arianism.

In Christ's love,
filo

[Studeclunker]

Actually, Filo, my mistake was in punctuation. As in;

This is a thought,
continued by another,
finished by a statement.

In otherwords;

The Athanasian Creed was to answer Arianism,
the Nicean creed was Gnosticism,
the Apostles creed was a simple statement of faith,
setting themselves forever apart from the Jewish traditions,
whilst correcting heresies that threatened the veracity of the Gospel.

Is that a bit clearer?:sorry:
Perhaps it was the Apostles Creed that was answering Gnosticism. Whatever, they all do their jobs admirably without this ignorant old man muddling up the issue. We are truely blessed to have had the church fathers leaving us such worthy tools with which to defend the faith.

[carlsonloggie]

It's wise to keep in mind the reason for each of the three creeds. Each was to answer to a current heresy:
The Athanasian Creed was to answer Arianism.
The Nicean creed was Gnosticism.
The Apostles creed was a simple statement of faith, setting themselves forever apart from the Jewish traditions.



The Nicene Creed was composed by the First Council of Nicea and expanded by the First Council of Constantinople. Its purpose is to counter Arianism, Apollinarianism, Macedonianism, and Chiliasm.

The Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius, but was instead composed around 500 AD. It seems likely that the use of Athanasius' name was to honor the man who saved Christianity from the Arian heresy, and protected it against Julian the Apostate. The Athanasian Creed is designed to protect the faith against Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, and Macedonianism. (I would also add Chiliasm to that list, although this is not a generally accepted position.)


Arianism: The Son is a created being.
Apollinarianism: The Son had a human body and soul, but a divine mind.
Chiliasm: The belief in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ upon the earth prior to the end of all things. The Nicene Creed adds the phrase “whose kingdom shall have no end” against this error.
Macedoniamism: The denial of the divinity of the Holy Spirit. They were also known as pneumatomachians, or the “spirit fighters.”
Monophysitism: The belief that Christ had only one nature, as opposed to the Chalcedonian position that Christ has both a divine and a human nature.
Nestorianism: Jesus exists as two persons: the Son of God, and the Son of Man

[Edial]

To add to KEPLER's post ...

As he pointed out that in Phil.2 Christ made himself a servant.

Christ presents in John 15 ...
20 Remember the words I spoke to you: `No servant is greater than his master ...