A drink, a shot, a keg, or none at all?

[Onesimus85]

What are the views of alcohol use within Churches with a Wesleyan background?

[PaladinGirl]

I think that the Nazarene Church and Wesleyan Church pretty much say no alcohol is allowed but the Methodist churches are a bit more lenient on it. I'm not certain though.

[AquilaGT]

Below is the official statement from the United Methodist Social Principles:

We affirm our long-standing support of abstinence from alcohol as a faithful witness to God's liberating and redeeming love for persons. We support abstinence from the use of any illegal drugs. Since the use of illegal drugs, as well as illegal and problematic use of alcohol, is a major factor in crime, disease, death, and family dysfunction, we support educational programs as well as other prevention strategies encouraging abstinence from illegal drug use and, with regard to those who choose to consume alcoholic beverages, judicious use with deliberate and intentional restraint, with Scripture as a guide.

[seeking.IAM]

I grew up UMC. I had never been in the same room with alcohol or seen it consumed until my first year in the college dorm.

As an adult, I've known UMC Pastors that have had to go out of town to buy alcohol lest they get caught by the wrong parishoner.

I've also had the privilege of sharing a drink with a UMC Pastor who trusted me enough to drink in front of me, but wouldn't want other parishoners to see/know.

Times are a changin' but here in the Midwest, we're still a pretty conservative lot. It is still grape juice in the communion cup, afterall. One would think the water was turned in to Welches at the marriage in Cana. Actually I think the temperance movement made a pretty late entry into Christianity.

One cup, yes. Two cups, maybe. Three cups, never. Moderation in all things.

seeking.IAM
<><

[MrsOsenga]

I agree, moderation is the key. I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner occasionally - but it's always one glass. I think the intent of the drinking is important - a glass of wine or possibly a beer with dinner is one thing, going out to the bars for the purpose of getting drunk is an entirely different matter.

[herev]

I'm enjoying a glass right now. As a umc pastor, I used to worry about what parishoners thought--no more. I am not violating any rules or biblical principles. I'm 41 and haven't been drunk in 20 years, and don't intend to ever do that again;). As to communion, it was a delegate to General Conference who took wine out of communion and replaced it with grape juice. His name was Welch, yes, true story. Since then, by order of The Discipline, only grape juice is allowed.

[PaladinGirl]

I'm enjoying a glass right now. As a umc pastor, I used to worry about what parishoners thought--no more. I am not violating any rules or biblical principles. I'm 41 and haven't been drunk in 20 years, and don't intend to ever do that again;). As to communion, it was a delegate to General Conference who took wine out of communion and replaced it with grape juice. His name was Welch, yes, true story. Since then, by order of The Discipline, only grape juice is allowed.

Tis blasphemy I say! Wine must be used! :P Just kidding! :D

[ClementofRome]

I have enjoyed a beer with many a UMC pastor (including my DAD!).

A theologian once said that good theology can only be done over a Guiness Stout! :)

[cougtpt1]

This topic came up in my Junior High Sunday School class that I teach. After some scripture and discussion we first made it clear that obeying the law is Godly and therfore under age drinking is not an option. After that I asked WWJD? Using some scripture they decided drinking in moderation during meals and celebrations was what Jesus did. Not as a source of entertainment or as a way to chagne your mental state. Wine and beer were used as beverages like we use soda and juice. If you drink to much soda you will not feel well either. Then we went back to the Nazarene Manual and showed them where is says not to drink. Education will help most people decide about drinking.

[herev]

well done

[lindamarie]

Year b/f last wine & beer were served at our choir Christmas party... (No one, including the pastor, got drunk)...

[lindamarie]

the Book of Discipline says:

"...with regard to those who choose to consume alcoholic beverages, judicious use with deliberate and intentional restraint, with Scripture as a guide."

Guess it's each person's call in the UMC...

[Combatchuc11]

Proverbs 31:6 Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish; 7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
Ephesians 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

And that's how I roll.

[herev]

Year b/f last wine & beer were served at our choir Christmas party... (No one, including the pastor, got drunk)...interesting. while the Discipline allows individuals to make that choice--even pastors, it is crystal clear that alcohol NEVER be served at church events.

[amx]

Sound's like the Nazarenes take a stricter stance on alcohol. It's just not done except for making cough/cold remedies. The remedy bit may be a regional thing peculiar to the south.
Please don't treat this as if it's a loop hole. I can only remember once having a "home remedy" and it was awful but it was effective. I had flu and couldn't breathe well. The old saying goes the worse the medicine taste the more powerful the cure. I believe it.

[5stringJeff]

I believe the Mazarene church takes a stance of temperance. But I still consume.

[HeatherJay]

Yep, the Church of the Nazarene says no to alcohol...smoking as well, though they're not as vocal about that one as they used to be.

[alaurie]

I like the scriptures' guidelines to not be drunk with wine or strong drink.

That glass of Shiraz I had last night with my grilled salmon was teh tastiest :yum:

[Tawny]

My Great aunt and that side of my family are all Methodists, (My second cousin even plays the organ in Chapel), none of them drink alcohol at all...not a drop

[lindamarie]

interesting. while the Discipline allows individuals to make that choice--even pastors, it is crystal clear that alcohol NEVER be served at church events.

Does the Book of Discipline say that? (I'm curious... BTW, this event was for the choir only and was held in a family's home... and I'm assuming it was the couple's decision to offer beer, wine, soft drinks and coffee...)

[Davis]

Yep, the Church of the Nazarene says no to alcohol...smoking as well, though they're not as vocal about that one as they used to be.


My Free Methodist Church has a smokers ash tray type thing outside the doors. We do not frown upon others for smoking. We all have bad habits. Of coarse there are only maybe 4-5 people in our whole church that smoke.

As far as drinking I see nothing wrong with it until your purpose is to consume so much that you get drunk. I like having a glass of wine or beer with my dinner when I go out with my family. Theres nothing wrong with that. But the bible is clear that we should not be getting drunk.

[herev]

Does the Book of Discipline say that? (I'm curious... BTW, this event was for the choir only and was held in a family's home... and I'm assuming it was the couple's decision to offer beer, wine, soft drinks and coffee...)
I will investigate further. I can't find it quickly and admittedly that was off the top of my head. It's been YEARS since I read that--just can't remember where:scratch:

[lindamarie]

I've never read the entire BOD... maybe I'll try to do that this year... (too bad they don't have it on audiobook... ;) )

[Davis]

Actually I have never picked it up.
I'm not even sure that the Free Methodist Church uses it.
My pastor preaches from the Bible and thats about it. I dont even know what it really is lol.

[lindamarie]

I hadn't heard of it either until I joined the UMC -- and I went to a Methodist college...

Can't imagine it replacing the Bible, but I think it would be interesting to see what the "official" position is...

[seeking.IAM]

Okay, folks here's where we came from, excerpted from the 1892 Book of Disciplne that I bought on ebay:

Chapter V, #240 (pg. 131)
"In cases of neglect of duties of any kind, imprudent conduct, indulging sinful tempers or words, the buying, selling, or using intoxicating liquors as a beverage, signing petitions in favor of granting license for the sale of intoxicating liquors, becoming bondsmen for persons engaged in such traffic, renting property as a place in or which to manufacture or sell intoxicating liquors, dancing , playing at games of chance, attending theaters, horse races, circuses, dancing parties, or patronizing dancing schools, or taking such other amusements as are obviously of misleading or questionable moral tendency, or disobedience to the Order and Discipline of the Chruch-first, let private reproof be given by the Pastor or Leader, and if there be an acknowledgement of the fault, aand proper humiliation, the person may be borne with. On a second offense the Pastor or Leader may take one or two discreet Members of the Chruch. On a third offense, let him be brought to trial, and if found guilty, and there be no sign of real humiliation, he shall be expelled."

Forget the booze. Forgive me for that night at Arthur Murray.

[Davis]

See I respect all that and everything. But first and foremost I respect Gods Word more.
Again I'm not even sure the Free Methodist faith even follows this at all. I will have to do some research on it.


Attending theaters? I wonder if back in ole 1896 or whatever the date, that there was some sliminess acts happening. Thats the problem with books like these. These words are not eternal. They are very significant for that time but going to a movie theater now lol is not a big deal. Especially if your going to watch the Passion of the Christ or Chronicles of Narnia. Now I agree with the liquor to an extent. We should not be getting wasted. But it seems to me that the Lord is showing me this morning that His Word is just as meaningful back in Christs time as it is now. And it will continue to be meaningful to the end of time. His Word is eternal. This book is obviously not.

[contriteheart]

I was born and raised Methodist - the granddaughter of a Methodist preacher, and except for a couple of years when my parents suddenly decided to sport an "It's okay not to drink" bumper sticker on the back of our car, we always had alcohol in the house - and always in moderation.

To my mind as a child, Methodists were just like Baptists, only we baptized infants (by sprinkling), and drank (in moderation) openly.

When I became a non-denom for a few years, I stopped drinking because there were a lot of folks I knew would be offended by it, but now I enjoy a drink or two regularly. However, I do try to refrain if I feel someone may be present who will be offended.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

[kelco]

I do enjoy a beer or two on occasion but it's one of those things that if it causes a sister or brother to stumble then I will abstain when they are present.

[desert_island_1]

I have never had alcohol. My aunt and uncle (non - christians) will often have a bit of wine or beer with a meal every few days but rarely do they ever get drunk. My mum will have alcohol around christmas or new years or easter but never more than 1-2 glasses. I know some people who are in their 80's and have never had alcohol. Our church personally uses 'Frutopia' in the communion cups (when we have communion that is - once every 2 or 3 months) Just my $0.02 CDN.

Kristy

[Ric]

What are the views of alcohol use within Churches with a Wesleyan background?

Personal: None at all! I don't drink, and that is only by my choice.

UMC: We affirm our long-standing support of abstinence from alcohol as a faithful witness to God's liberating and redeeming love for persons... ( http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1755 )

[Artos]

My branch of Methodism will not allow alcohol to be served within Methodist church premises. Older pastors like myself understood our vow of to be of total abstinence- except of course when we take Communion at Anglican services....(!). Younger ones tend to interpret it as moderation.

[lindamarie]

I'm pretty sure the Book of Discipline has been updated since the 1800s... :D

BTW, our church (the one whose pastor drinks) does not allow alcohol on the premises either...

lm

[Diane_Windsor]

Okay, folks here's where we came from, excerpted from the 1892 Book of Disciplne that I bought on ebay:

Chapter V, #240 (pg. 131)
"In cases of neglect of duties of any kind, imprudent conduct, indulging sinful tempers or words, the buying, selling, or using intoxicating liquors as a beverage, signing petitions in favor of granting license for the sale of intoxicating liquors, becoming bondsmen for persons engaged in such traffic, renting property as a place in or which to manufacture or sell intoxicating liquors, dancing , playing at games of chance, attending theaters, horse races, circuses, dancing parties, or patronizing dancing schools, or taking such other amusements as are obviously of misleading or questionable moral tendency, or disobedience to the Order and Discipline of the Chruch-first, let private reproof be given by the Pastor or Leader, and if there be an acknowledgement of the fault, aand proper humiliation, the person may be borne with. On a second offense the Pastor or Leader may take one or two discreet Members of the Chruch. On a third offense, let him be brought to trial, and if found guilty, and there be no sign of real humiliation, he shall be expelled."

Are you sure that a Baptist didn't write that ;) ^_^

[Diane_Windsor]

Happy Birthday!

What are the views of alcohol use within Churches with a Wesleyan background?

For our cousins across the pond :D , The Methodist Church of Great Britain: Alcohol (http://www.methodist.org.uk/static/factsheets/fs_alcohol.htm), Alcohol Misuse (http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.content&cmid=1006)

DIANE
:wave:

[seeking.IAM]

Are you sure that a Baptist didn't write that ;) ^_^

You'd think, wouldn't you? One would surmise that the Methodists used to be a lot closer to the Baptists than they are now (issues re baptism notwithstanding).

The growing gulf between Methodists and conservative Baptists contributes to one of my former pastors joking that a Methodist is a Presbyterian without money and a Baptist without religion. :D

[lindamarie]

I've been a Baptist -- and you'd have a hard time making me go back...

[ImaginaryVoyager]

I'll have a beer every now and again---or a glass of wine. However, I've set a limit on myself of no more than one alcoholic drink in any single day.

[Amisk]

I stand fully against alcohol in any form. I attended the Nazarene Church for most of my teen years. I held a student minister's license for part of that time as well. At the time the Nazarene Church stood very strong against the use of alcohol. I attended Canadian Nazarene College in Red Deer, Alberta and again in Winnipeg, Manitoba and if a student had been caught drinking, he or she would have been expelled, no question asked.

I also grew up in a Christian home where my mother made it very strongly known to my father's brothers who drank that they were welcome to the house anytime, if they came sober and left the booze at home. That is the policy of my home today.

The reason that I take such a strong stand on alcohol is that I have never met an alcoholic yet who ever started out to become a drunk. Every one of them took the attitude which I see in most of the statements on this site, that playing around the edge of the mud hole is okay as long as you don't fall in.

There is only one way to assure yourself that you will never become a drunk and that is to leave the booze at the dealers.

Most men and women that I have talked with that became slaves of the bottle started out as social drinkers and many of them managed very well until some incident happened in their life, maybe a lost of a job, break up of their family, death of family member, stress of the workplace, whatever, and the bottle moved into solve the problem. No, it was not intentionally but nevertheless they ended up there.

I had Uncles and Aunts who drank themselves into broke homes, one lost their family to child welfare. To this day they don't know where some of their children are.

Some of their kids got together recently and to hear them cry over their childhood tales would tear your heart out. It all came about because some one talked their parents into social drinking.

Most kids get started drinking and smoking out of their parent's bar and cigarette packages. Don't forget the old saying, "What parents do in moderation their children will do in excess."

No church ought to use fermented wine at communion, just because a drunk has accept Christ as his Saviour and he has overcome the bottle via his salvation, doesn't mean that one drink of alcohol will not send him into a tail spin and back to skid row. Sad the day that the church becomes the devil's aid, but it is happening out there in many a domination.

As for the comment that Jesus created alcoholic wine at the wedding in Cana, you will have a hard time proving it either way. I think the best answer to that is one I heard Jimmy Swaggart give sometime ago. "if you think Jesus made alcoholic wine then go to your kitchen tap and pray over it and if the water comes out wine then drink it, otherwise don't."

I firmly believe that the smart man or woman is the one who doesn't play with sin or anything that could lead to it. I have never met a man or woman yet who has told me that they wished they had started using alcoholic drinks, but I have known many out there in the work place who would cry buckets of tears over that first glass if they knew then what they know now.

[Linnis]

I have chose not to drink, it's a personal choice, my Husband will have a drink every now and then. I'm not against alcohol, if others wish to drink they are more then welcome to. It becomes a problem, when one drinks to excess, drives(even one drink, is drinking and driving) or becomes dependant on it, then it's a problem.

I do not believe I will drink again, but I have drank in the past.

[gal4God]

drining is okay but only in moderation.

[Onesimus85]

While I respect those who are able to drink in moderation, I think that it is important that one does not push his/her limit when it comes to the consumption of alcohol. While I have had a beer or two, and have enjoyed a glass of wine as well, I know that I cannot do this on a regular basis due to the alcoholic tendencies of my family. However, I could most likely build a high tolerance seeing as how my blood lines come from Irish, Scottish, and German backgrounds.
After much prayer, I have decided to not drink for my remanding time while in school. This may eventually result in my complete abstinence of alcohol. I have began wondering what I would do if I were to marry someone who was against casual alcohol consumption. It was an easy answer, I would not drink. So, I began to ask myself, "Why do I drink?" Besides the fact that I like the taste of some beers and wines I have no idea. I guess that I drink alcohol for the same reason I drink coke or tea, just because (though I have not drank more than 2 alcoholic drinks in one evening). With everything that I am doing I think that it would be wise for me to refrain from drinking alcohol, perhaps even permanently.

[all4peace]

I have never had a problem with drinking. . . I could have a glass of wine or beer without going overboard. My husband, on the other hand, can not handle alcohol. If I were to drink around my husband it would cause him to stumble. . .therefore, I don't.

I am a Wesleyan and Wesleyan's believe in "no alcohol" because of the possibility of leading someone to stumble. This is why we have grapejuice for communion as well. . . we can not take the chance of there being someone in the congregation receiving communion who may be either an alcoholic or someone trying to "sober up". If they were to taste wine at communion. . . that little taste could push them over the edge and lead them to want more.

[SurgeCurrent]

The United Methodist church does not use alcohol in the communion wine for the sake of recovering alcoholics. Additionally, the church does support abstinence from alcohol.

From the scriptures, I believe a little is permitted (1 Timothy 5:23), but we are called to be sober and abstain from excess (Proverbs 20:1), (Isaiah 5:11), (1 Timothy 5:6-7), (1 Titus 2:2-6), (1 Peter 1:13), (1 Peter 4:3).

Grace and Peace,
Chris

[geelee]

I've been a Nazarene since I can remember. Here both drinking and smoking is frowned upon. In our congregation you are not allowed to stand in any official capacity for the church if you do one of them.
I have been a social drinker and permanent smoker when I was lost for 17 years, but was cured of smoking in Jan last year. I don't miss the drink at all, but Hubbie does.

[Jonahan]

Though I believe that drinking in moderation is permissible, both by the UMC and by God (as revealed in the Scriptures), I will never drink again. There is a great, great preacher in our conference who had a phenominal 40 year ministry in the Methodist church (and then the UMC after '68). To this day, some 20 years after his death, his church still remembers him as the "pastor with a beer" because he drank a beer that someone handed to him at a non-church related summer party.

Drinking is, I believe, only a problem when it becomes a stumbling stone. However, it seems that there are parishoners for whom having a pastor drink, even occasionally, would be a stumbling stone for *them*.

In this, I have no strong opinions that I would impart on another person. This is solely how I feel for *me* and my vocation/career/calling.

[NHB_MMA]

I have never heard tell of a single account of a person relapsing into alcoholism because of communion using wine. It's not like they're getting a 44 oz. Big Gulp cup of the stuff.

Anyway, this issue is just one reason why I cannot return to the Nazarene Church I was raised in. It is not really a justification of my own lifestyle. Maybe once a month I'll have a beer after work with my boss. Maybe once a year, I'll have several of them to the point where I shouldn't drive, but certainly not to the point where my moral judgment would ever be impaired. I could live without it if I had to, but I just never think much about it. If God appeared to me today and demanded I never consume alcohol again...done deal.

The problem that I have is the argument against alcoholic consumption is incredibly weak. It is really philosophical more than scriptural and the problem is whenever you put in standards that are not necessarily Biblical, but man's idea of what holiness is it becomes inevitable that the most judgmental and self-righteous take charge of the show. I know of a local Nazarene pastor that lost many congregants from his church because someone saw him wearing shorts to the grocery store. Not while preaching from the pulpit, but wearing a pair of shorts to shop on a summer day. Where is this nonsense going to end? And there are other problems that I personally have with Nazarene theology, so I sort of think they've missed the boat on some things and need to quit worrying about the occasional cold one.

[Onesimus85]

Mr. Welch, yeah the grape juice originator, developed his juice so that it could be used for communion and alcohol would not have to be used. By the way, he was Methodist.;)

[Morgaine1205]

Mr. Welch, yeah the grape juice originator, developed his juice so that it could be used for communion and alcohol would not have to be used. By the way, he was Methodist.;)

My pastor told me that story too! :)

[dreamcatcher]

Yep, the Church of the Nazarene says no to alcohol...smoking as well, though they're not as vocal about that one as they used to be.

As a smoker and unfortunately, a drinker, I am a member of our Nazarene Church. As people have correctly stated, they don't agree with smoking and drinking but at my church, they don't condemn you for it. In fact, at my church we have a Recovery Bible Study group for members (and non-members as well) with addictions, whatever that addiction maybe. Food,drugs,alcohol,pornography,money. Just ANY kind of addiction.

But I Thank GOD for a church that doesn't condemn you for those things(drinking & smoking).

I apologize if I got a little "off topic".

[vibrant]

for medical reasons, i don't drink.

[kayanne]

for medical reasons, i don't drink.
for medical reasons, I do

[Papa01]

I don't drink - by personal choice

[Jadis40]

I don't drink, and as a lot of people, it's not because there may be any official stance against it...but because it's my personal choice.

Actually, it comes from the fact that I can't stand the smell of beer. I have had sips of champagne and wine on rare occasions, but couldn't stand it.

Now...caffiene is an entirely different story. I'm up for a good espresso any time of the week. :clap:

[Hispath]

When I went to my first Wesleyan Church, it totally knocked my socks off!

The people were very friendly, excepting, and interested.

Being a police officer and not a christian, this made me a bit supicious!

It wasn't until a couple years later, a book called the Purpose Driven Life, and my wife's cousin taking over a local Wesleyan Church, did I finally get involved in the Wesleyan Church. I joined the church and am now on the board, help lead service and head up the youth ministry.

It wasn't until I was voted onto the board that I made the decision to abstain from alcohol.

Does the Bible say that alcohol is ok, as long as you don't get drunk, sure. And I lived by that rule until becoming a board member.

As a chosen leader in the church I feel that it is important to support the discipline that the church up holds. My pastor does not drink either and I believe that we are called upon to support our pastors.

This is just how I do things here. Not ours to judge others, but to love one another as Christ does.

The time will come when He will set us straight and let us know what we've done well, and what we've messed up.

Love in Christ,

Jim

[beatachevy289]

Is the application of a drinking age enforced with these ideas as well? Dispite what side of the issue you stand on, how do you feel about age? I don't have a problem with anyone drinking alcohol within moderation, without drunkeness. I am a Non-Denominational person myself. I believe we should follow man's law if it is not hindering the law of God, how does this apply to if the guardians of the underage individual approve of it? -Drew <><

[alonesoldier]

I think a lot of it has to do with individual conviction of the Holy Spirit, Jesus ate and drank with sinners and his first miracle was changing water into wine. The Holy Spirit doesn't convict me of sin when I am drinking, (not to get wasted) either He knows I am not there in my walk with him yet, or else it isn't very important to him as it pertains to me. But for example I have been praying for opportunities to witness and without fail, I am not lying, every day for the last week someone has independently brought up God and I have had the opportunity to share Christ. It happened tonight at a bar while I was drinking a beer! She (one of my co-workers) asked me if I had seen the Da Vinci Code yet and what my opinion was on Christ. God can use us in spite of ourselves.

[SandyLou]

Amen! And good for you seizing the opportunity!

[InsaneManiac]

After having a mom who was an alcoholic and friends around me who drank. I decided when I was 10 I wasn't going to drink, because it's not healthy and it could ruin your life if your not careful. Good thing is though, my mom has been sober for almost 7 years and she follows her program like a religion. She turned her life over to God and well doesnt drink anymore. It was a really rough time when I found out she was an alcoholic. But in the end everything worked out. Praise the lord and God for that. :amen: