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the truth
13th January 2006, 04:29 AM
Just curious what others thought. I will be posting this in other sections God bless. :)

"That is the reason we have so many ‘mushroom’ converts, because their stony ground is not plowed up; they have not got a conviction of the Law; they are stony-ground hearers."
GEORGE WHITEFIELD

Kirk's comment I thought "backsliding" was a common, normal occurrence in Christianity until I understood the reality of false conversions and their prevalence in our churches today. This lesson is a real eye-opener.

Q U E S T I O N S & O B J E C T I O N S
"I was once a born-again Christian. Now I believe it’s all rubbish!" When a person maintains that he was once a Christian, but came to his senses, he is saying that he once knew the Lord (see John 17:3). Ask him,
"Did you know the Lord?" If he answers yes, gently say, "So you admit that He is real and that you are in rebellion to His will." If he says, "I thought I did!" this gives you license to gently say, "If you don’t know so, then you probably didn’t." If he didn’t know the Lord, he was therefore never a Christian (1 John 5:11–13,20). Explain to him that the Bible speaks
of false conversion, in which a "stony ground" hearer receives the Word with joy and gladness. Then, in a time of tribulation, temptation, and per-secution, falls away. If he is open to reason, take him through the Ten Commandments, into the message of the cross, and the necessity of repentance and faith in the Savior.
Perhaps one of the most neglected concepts in the contemporary Body of Christ is that of true and false conversion.Why it is neglected is a mystery because the New Testament is filled with teachings about the
subject and gives many examples of false converts. The Scriptures speak of false prophets, false teachers, false apostles, and false brethren. A clear understanding of the subject will help ensure that we are not guilty of preaching a gospel that reaps false converts.
When Jesus gave His disciples the Parable of the Sower, it seems that they lacked understanding of its meaning: "He said to them, ‘Do you not know this parable? and how then will you know [understand] all parables?’" (Mark 4:13). In other words, the Parable of the Sower is the key to unlocking the mysteries of all the other parables. If any message comes from the parable, it is the fact that when the gospel is preached, there are true and false conversions. This parable speaks of the thorny ground, the stony ground, and the good-soil hearers—the false and the genuine converts.
Once that premise has been established, the light of perception begins to dawn on Jesus’ other parables about the kingdom of God. If one grasps the principle of the true and false being alongside each other, then the other parabolic teachings make sense: the Wheat and Tares (true and false), the Good Fish and Bad Fish (true and false), the Wise Virgins and the Foolish (true and false), and the Sheep and Goats (true and false). After telling about the Wheat and Tares, Jesus gave the Parable of the Dragnet:
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like to a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus said to them, Have you understood all these things?
They said to Him, Yes, Lord (Matthew 13:47–51).
Notice that the good fish and the bad fish were in the net together. The world is not caught in the dragnet of the kingdom of heaven; they remain in the world. The "fish" that are caught are those who respond to the gospel—the evangelistic "catch." They remain together until the Day of Judgment.
False converts lack genuine contrition for sin. They make a profession of faith but are deficient in biblical repentance—"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and to every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). A true convert, however, has a knowledge of sin and has godly sorrow, truly repents, and produces the "things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:9). This is evident by the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of righteousness, etc. Judas was a false convert. It would seem that he was an example of the thorny ground. The Bible says of the thorny-ground hearer: "The cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful" (Mark 4:19).
Some of these professing Christians stay within the church, and they are the ones who often discredit the name of Jesus Christ. Although false converts fail to repent of their sins, they do have a measure of spirituality. Judas did. He convinced some of the disciples that he did truly care for the poor. He seemed so trustworthy that he was the one who looked after the finances.When Jesus said, "One of you will betray me," the disciples didn’t point the finger at the faithful treasurer, but instead suspected themselves, saying, "Is it I, Lord?" So it’s not surprising that few within the Body of Christ would ever suspect that we are surrounded by those who fall into the "Judas" category.
However, alarm bells should go off when the church, which ought to have massive clout in society, sadly lacks it when push comes to shove.With our 142 million professed believers, we can’t even outlaw the killing of unborn children. As William Iverson wrote in Christianity Today, "A pound of meat would surely be affected by a quarter pound of salt. If this is real Christianity, the ‘salt of the earth,’ where is the effect of which Jesus spoke?"
God knows the genuine from the false, and He will separate them on the Day of Judgment.
F E A T H E R S F O R A R R O W S
The Bible tells us in Luke 22:47 that Judas led a "multitude" to Jesus. His motive, however, wasn’t to bring them to the Savior for salvation. Modern
evangelism is also bringing "multitudes" to Jesus. Their motive may be different from Judas’s, but the end result is the same. Just as the multitudes that Judas directed to Christ fell back from the Son of God, statistics
show that up to 90 percent of those coming to Christ under the methods of modern evangelism fall away from the faith. Their latter end becomes worse than the first. They openly crucify the Son of God afresh.
In their zeal without knowledge, those who prefer the ease of modern evangelism to biblical evangelism betray the cause of the gospel with a kiss.What may look like love for the sinner’s welfare is in truth eternally
detrimental to him.
Like Peter (Luke 22:51), our zeal without knowledge is actually cutting off the ears of sinners. Those we erroneously call "backsliders" won’t listen to our reasonings. As far as they are concerned, they have tried it once, and it didn’t work. What a victory for the prince of darkness, and what an unspeakable tragedy for the church!
Taken from The School Of Biblical Evangelism [u]

Jim47
13th January 2006, 09:00 AM
I need to apologize before I post, because I'm afraid that I may sound indignat.

Before I start with reply, please consider looking for a conservative Lutheran church.

Reply: There are several big problems with this sermon/devotion or whatever you call it. First, we are not to judge others, only lead them to Christ. This whole letter you posted smacks of self righteousness and looking down on someone else in order to elevate ones own position. This is called "self justification". Its the same thing that the pharisees did, and Jesus said of them, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not enter Heaven. How do we exceed the pharisees righteousness? There is only one way, we need the righteousness that Jesus won for us, nothing less, and nothing more. No one goes to the Father except through Jesus.

Even in the parable of the weeds, you failed to notice that Jesus did not say pull up the weeds "now". Why? because He did not want any weak believers damaged and cast out with the unbelievers. If this is what your church is teaching you, I would never go back to that church again. We are justified by Christ Jesus alone, not by works. "A damaged reed or smoldering wick He will not destroy".

As for clout to win over government and make our country a better place. We have a realy simple way to do that, you simply for vote for the person you support. I don't believe in rallies and exhibitions, we have better things to do, witness. Did Jesus ever get wrapped up in political things? No, not once.

In short, No! I don't agree with any of the letter you posted.

LilLamb219
13th January 2006, 12:09 PM
The entire premise of a "false" conversion (according to what is written above in your posting) is false. The ones who received God's Word with joy and then fell away cannot be accused of false conversion (or one who never really knew the Lord), but instead they fell away because of their own sinful nature. We CAN AND DO reject the Lord. It's possible. It is entirely possible to be converted and then reject the Lord later. The posting above doesn't take into consideration the scripture verses that speak of falling away later.

If this is a "lesson", then it's all law. Where is the gospel???? Law and Gospel properly distinguished will give a better lesson. The Law is needed to convict men of their sins and let them know they are unworthy and let them know they have turned against God. But then, it's only the Gospel that will build their faith, not more Law. The lesson should have turned back to Jesus Christ and what was accomplished because of the cross. You can't expect "backsliders" to turn to Christ if you don't even talk about what He has done. It's the Gospel that saves and it's the Gospel that grows the church. Why is it left out?????

LutherNut
13th January 2006, 12:15 PM
The entire premise of a "false" conversion (according to what is written above in your posting) is false. The ones who received God's Word with joy and then fell away cannot be accused of false conversion (or one who never really knew the Lord), but instead they fell away because of their own sinful nature. We CAN AND DO reject the Lord. It's possible. It is entirely possible to be converted and then reject the Lord later. The posting above doesn't take into consideration the scripture verses that speak of falling away later.


We have a name for what is described in the OP.

It's called Calvinism.

SPALATIN
13th January 2006, 12:46 PM
The entire premise of a "false" conversion (according to what is written above in your posting) is false. The ones who received God's Word with joy and then fell away cannot be accused of false conversion (or one who never really knew the Lord), but instead they fell away because of their own sinful nature. We CAN AND DO reject the Lord. It's possible. It is entirely possible to be converted and then reject the Lord later. The posting above doesn't take into consideration the scripture verses that speak of falling away later.

If this is a "lesson", then it's all law. Where is the gospel???? Law and Gospel properly distinguished will give a better lesson. The Law is needed to convict men of their sins and let them know they are unworthy and let them know they have turned against God. But then, it's only the Gospel that will build their faith, not more Law. The lesson should have turned back to Jesus Christ and what was accomplished because of the cross. You can't expect "backsliders" to turn to Christ if you don't even talk about what He has done. It's the Gospel that saves and it's the Gospel that grows the church. Why is it left out?????

Precisely. Which is why I don't agree with OSAS. The very theology they speak of has too many assumptions built into it.

KEPLER
13th January 2006, 06:08 PM
Typical Methodist/Baptist schlock. Bad theology.

Kepler

LutherNut
13th January 2006, 08:56 PM
Precisely. Which is why I don't agree with OSAS. The very theology they speak of has too many assumptions built into it.

OSAS is contrary to Scripture. The Bible tells us that we are conceived sinful, in a state of rebellion against God. There is no one righteous (Romans 3:10). Righteousness comes solely from God by His grace.

But Scripture also tells us that the righteous can fall and turn from righteousness and sin (Ezekiel 18:24-26). "If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it."

stumpjumper
13th January 2006, 11:05 PM
I don't buy the once saved always saved BS. As I am writing this I am listening to Van Morrisons: Just a Closer Walk with Thee. Now Van Morrison would say that Jesus will keep us on the road but only if we wish to walk that way. There is no false conversion but just a closer walk with thee and if you have no walk you have no conversion.

You just need to walk with Jesus and forget the TULIP stuff because that has never helped anyone ;)

FreezBee
14th January 2006, 06:41 AM
But Scripture also tells us that the righteous can fall and turn from righteousness and sin (Ezekiel 18:24-26). "If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it."

It may be of limited relevance, yet it may be worth tempering this with the parables in Luke 15, e.g. the parable of the lost sheep:

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Salvation is not unlooseable, but it may be hard to loose :)


- FreezBee

Jim47
14th January 2006, 09:37 AM
FreezBee]
Salvation is not unlooseable, but it may be hard to loose :)






That may offer you some comfort to believe that, but its not true. There are many people in the bible who were very close to God and fell away. King Saul & Judas are just 2 examples. How about today? How many Christian homes are broken with drugs and cheating on ones spouce, or gambling. We are all subject to assualts from Satan on a daily basis, and the moment we deny The Holy Spirit to keep us strong and ward off temptations we have fallen away. My own close relative is a good example of this, and I have never been able to persuade repentance. This doesn't happen just once in a while, but everyday. Only a fool would be so careless to think that he could not slip from grace, as God has warned us many times.

Why would Paul have written these words if there were no danger?


Phil 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

stumpjumper
14th January 2006, 09:48 AM
Hi Jim

Well Paul also wrote these words in Romans 8: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Paul is persuaded that nothing will be able to come between those who seek the love of the Lord and the Lord. Bad choices do cause pain and suffering in this life and lead to all sorts of social and family problems. But, that does not mean that those who have their lives in dissaray have fallen away from eternal grace and the Love of God. They and all of us do need to get our lives in order and none of us are perfect, but I don't think that we should conclude that anyone has fallen out of the reach of God's love.

C.F.W. Walther
14th January 2006, 10:00 PM
One thing I have noticed, irregardless of the article posted above, was the large amount of turnover in these large evangelistic churches. The ones with 2 to 5 thousand members usually have turnover of over 20% every year. The focus seems to be on the members themselves instead of the real culprits. The ministers that preach nothing but "God is Love" or "name it and claim it" or "prosperity" thoeries. When the full law and gospel isn't preached the people are the victums and the pastors will be judged as mentioned in II Peter. Tayloring the gospel to foster your own beliefs and leaving out the truth will only lead to someones damnation.

Jim47
14th January 2006, 10:39 PM
One thing I have noticed, irregardless of the article posted above, was the large amount of turnover in these large evangelistic churches. The ones with 2 to 5 thousand members usually have turnover of over 20% every year. The focus seems to be on the members themselves instead of the real culprits. The ministers that preach nothing but "God is Love" or "name it and claim it" or "prosperity" thoeries. When the full law and gospel isn't preached the people are the victums and the pastors will be judged as mentioned in II Peter. Tayloring the gospel to foster your own beliefs and leaving out the truth will only lead to someones damnation.


Its too bad more people don't understand and believe this.

KEPLER
16th January 2006, 08:34 PM
LAW:

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

GOSPEL:

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.