Receiving Jesus the BIBLICAL way. [Archive]

edpobre

14th July 2001, 06:45 PM

Receiving Jesus the BIBLICAL way.

Let's go over John 1:12 and try to understand what it is telling us. It says: "But as many as received him, to them he gave the RIGHT to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

Those who receive Christ do not automatically become children of God. They only acquire the right to become children of God. And like any other right, it has to be exercised in order for one to avail of that right. Other versions of the Bible say "... power to become children of God."

One who receives Jesus has in his hand the right or power to become a child of God. He could refuse to exercise that right or refuse to turn on that power and having received Jesus would not make him a child of God.

The belief of many that to receive Jesus is by inviting him to come into your heart through prayer is not the Biblical way of receiving Jesus. This is false.

When Jesus sent out his twelve apostles to preach the gospel (Matt. 10:5), among other things he told them was: "He who receives YOU receives ME, and he who receives ME receives HIM who sent me." (Matt. 10:40).

The only way to receive Jesus and acquire the right to become a child of God is to receive the messengers sent by him or by God.

Apostle Paul emphasized the need for messengers sent by God when he said: "And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things.”

Ed

Josephus

15th July 2001, 12:09 AM

Welcome to the King's Tavern. Thanks for the info.

ZoneChaos

16th July 2001, 02:07 PM

Lets start simple, and work our way in ;)

Those who receive Christ do not automatically become children of God.

Let me see if I am understanding what you are saying here...

Above it seems that you are saying that, recieving Christ as your Saviour is not enough to become a child of God.

However, in the verse you quote:

"But as many as received him, to them he gave the RIGHT to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

It says something else. Look at the last part of the verse, first. "...to those who accept his name." This refers to those who accept the name of Messiah as The Messiah that the Jews were waiting for. By accepting HIs name, they accept Him as thier Savior, profisied, as their Messiah.

"But as many recieved, to them he gave the right to become children of God. "

The "right" in question is not the right to Salvation, but the right to become a child of God, as a result of that Salvation.

Jesus died for evey soul. Every soul is offered a chance for eternal life. By accepting Him as Saviour, we are given Eternal Life. And by that, we are given the right to become Children of God.

zamar

16th July 2001, 04:57 PM

So according to the author of this thread, Romans 10 verses 9 and 10 have no meaning?

Salvation is such an easy thing for man. Jesus did all of the work and now there is another one who wants us all to jump through his flaming hoops. Otherwise we are not saved?

Sure Buddy

Z

Lord Dorpaldonger

16th July 2001, 05:19 PM

You know... I think there are other ways of finding Jesus than reading the bible. For one thing... You have to admit the Bible is pretty darn boring. I mean why do they have to tell the story of Jesus three or four times. It's all the same thing. I'll let you guys know that I saw Jesus Christ Superstar last night and I was blown away by it. It sure is a lot more entertaining than the Bible.

LouisBooth

16th July 2001, 10:19 PM

umm..I don't read the calculus book because it is exciting..its proper instruction..just like the bible is. Oh..by the way..if the bible isn't exciting to read..then I'm thinking you're reading it wrong..:lol:

LouisBooth

16th July 2001, 10:21 PM

hey..I have posted several verses that say it is faith alone..but this guy doesn't believe that..;) you don't have to do "works" or anything other then truely believe..that's biblical..check galatians..

edpobre

16th July 2001, 10:59 PM

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: Above it seems that you are saying that, recieving Christ as your Saviour is not enough to become a child of God.

I am not saying that receiving Christ as your Saviour is not enough to become a child of God. What I'm saying is receiving Christ as your saviour doesn't make you a child of God and it doesn't save you either. The Bible doesn't say that accepting Christ as saviour makes you a child ofGod or saves you. Hence, this belief is false.

You wrote: However, in the verse you quote:

"But as many as received him, to them he gave the RIGHT to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

It says something else. Look at the last part of the verse, first. "...to those who accept his name." This refers to those who accept the name of Messiah as The Messiah that the Jews were waiting for. By accepting HIs name, they accept Him as thier Savior, profisied, as their Messiah.

Believing in his name or accepting the name of Messiah as the Messiah that the Jews were waiting for doesn't save you nor make you a child of God. This belief is false.

You wrote: The "right" in question is not the right to Salvation, but the right to become a child of God, as a result of that Salvation.

If you are not a child of God, whose child are you? Can someone who is not a child of God be saved then he gets the right to become a child of God? What kind of reasoning is this?

You wrote: Jesus died for evey soul. Every soul is offered a chance for eternal life. By accepting Him as Saviour, we are given Eternal Life. And by that, we are given the right to become Children of God.

The Bible does not support what you are saying. John 1:12 is plain and simple. Receive Jesus and you are given the right to become a child of God. After you receive Jesus, you must be redeemed by his blood for you to receive the adoption as son of God (Gal. 4:5).

As a son of God, you become an heir of God (Gal. 4:7) and co-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17) according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).

Ed

edpobre

16th July 2001, 11:17 PM

Zamar,

You wrote: So according to the author of this thread, Romans 10 verses 9 and 10 have no meaning?

Salvation is such an easy thing for man. Jesus did all of the work and now there is another one who wants us all to jump through his flaming hoops. Otherwise we are not saved?

Your statement that salvation is such an easy thing is false. Jesus said narrow is the gate and difficult is the way to life and very few find it (Matt. 7:14).

If Romans 10:9 is the only basis for salvation, a lot of people still would not be saved. Confessing Jesus as your Lord necessitates doing everything Jesus says (Luke 6:46) and believing that God had to raise Jesus from the grave because Jesus being a man, could not do it himself.

However, one needs to become a child of God in order to become heir to God's promises. And the only way to receive adoption as son of God is to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. Thus, only those who were redeemed by the blood of Christ can confess that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from te dead.

Ed

edpobre

16th July 2001, 11:22 PM

LB,

You wrote: hey..I have posted several verses that say it is faith alone..but this guy doesn't believe that.. you don't have to do "works" or anything other then truely believe..that's biblical..check galatians..

You cannot find a verse in the Bible that says one can be saved by faith only. This belief is false. The truth is apostle James wrote: "You see then that man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Ed

LouisBooth

17th July 2001, 12:08 AM

""You see then that man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)."

You're missing a key thing here..it's called context..lets look at this book before we go on...
Lets first look at what seems to be the reason this statement (which you have miserably taken out of context) was really said..James 2:14 "what good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" The answer is no because it is not true faith..This is the faith he is refering to. You have failed to take this verse in context..you ripped it out and twisted it to mean what you wanted it to. THAT IS WRONG.

Now lets look at a verse in context shall we?

If you look at Galatians 2:6 you see God doesn't judge by external apperances..he judges your "heart"

For works are what flows out of what you believe..this is why they are natural from true faith..this is what the book of James is addressing.

Galatians 2:15-16 "We wh are Jes by birt and not 'gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justifed by observing the law (ie works) but by FAITH in Jesus christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we many be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

It is by faith alone that we are saved...now when you give me verses give me context as well for even Satan himself used scipture against Jesus in the desert..but without context. Yes, its that important.

LouisBooth

17th July 2001, 12:42 AM

"The Bible doesn't say that accepting Christ as saviour makes you a child ofGod or saves you. Hence, this belief is false."

Umm..yeah it does :lol: let me break it down for you..justification to the law=salvation because that is what is keeping us from "getting" to God. Galatians Chapter 2 and 3 are a direct answer to that :lol: You need to check your bible again before saying statements like that. It is by faith alone we are saved.

LouisBooth

17th July 2001, 12:46 AM

Eps 2:8-10 "For is is by farace you have been saved, THOURGH FAITH, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works (ie baptism, good deeds, cirumsision) so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, cretaed in christ Jesus to do good forks, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

See that faith alone part ;)

Josephus

17th July 2001, 01:19 AM

As far as I understand it, we are asked to do two things in our life:

1. Recieve Jesus as our Savior from sin and death.

2. Make Jesus Lord of our lives.

Ed, may I ask why you are posting? There usually is an etiquitte to posting, and most posts usually include points or questions to be answered by others. Comming in here and looking like a know-it-all sometimes doesn't help the witness of the Christians that are here. Please be considerate (though I am not saying that you aren't - I would just like to know where you are going with your posts.)

-the guy who owns this board

Lord Dorpaldonger

17th July 2001, 09:25 AM

Maybe the Bible isn't boring. I don't know. What I do know is that somebody could make a lot of money if they made "Bible the Movie". I would go and see it without a doubt.

Josephus

17th July 2001, 02:26 PM

There is: There are several good books that put the bible in novel form. There are also movies that cover Adam and Eve, Abraham, Joseph, David, Jesus, the gospels, the acts, even Revelation.

The Matthew series on DVD is the whole book of Matthew verse by verse. You just have to know where to look and how to look.

But the bible isn't boring when you've got the right translation. A King James bible is the worst for anyone to begin with. The Message bible is the best for someone to get started, though I recommend the Spirit Filled bible for someone to have both the old and new testaments. Heck, I've got 11 bibles. I'd be happy to send one to you.

zamar

17th July 2001, 04:30 PM

Well Ed,
The Bible also says that "all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

So put that in your legalistic pipe and smoke it.

Z

ZoneChaos

17th July 2001, 07:26 PM

John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

This verse above, says that those that recived Him, and believe in HIs name have already been given the power (Salvation and redemption from sin) to become a Child of God.

After you receive Jesus, you must be redeemed by his blood for you to receive the adoption as son of God (Gal. 4:5).

The redemption is instantaneous. You do not have to eartn it, or do anything after accpeting Jesus for who He says He is. Once you accpet Him, you are redeemed.

Lets look at Galations 4:4-5

4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Here God send Jesus to earth to die for us...

4:5 "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

Here He redeems us as a result of that act. Once He did this, the option to recieve the adoption was available. Notice the verse says "might". Some will not recive the adoption, becasue they will reject the truth. But those that accept the truth, will recive the adoption and be made Sons of God.

Somewhere you have mis-understood this, and came to the conclusion that accepting Christ as your Savior does not save you. The thing is, that is salvation. Accepting the truth as truth.. believe the truth as truth is Salvation. And, with Salvation comes all the perks, like being adopted by God as a Child of God.

edpobre

18th July 2001, 10:08 AM

LouisBooth,

Ed: "You see then that man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)."

LLB:You're missing a key thing here..it's called context..lets look at this book before we go on...
Lets first look at what seems to be the reason this statement (which you have miserably taken out of context) was really said..James 2:14 "what good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" The answer is no because it is not true faith..This is the faith he is refering to. You have failed to take this verse in context..you ripped it out and twisted it to mean what you wanted it to. THAT IS WRONG.

It is clear from these verses that faith only (without deeds or works) is not true faith and no one is justified by faith only. You have been saying all along that salvation is by "faith only". Now you are saying that I ripped it out of context and twisted it when I was only quoting the verse word for word.

As you said earlier after going through "context", faith alone is not true faith. If you read Galatians 2:15-16 you will notice that "...by observing the LAW no one will be justified" Paul was referring to the observance of the law as the WORKS that justifies no one.

Eph. 2:8-9 is about "true faith" which by apostle James' definition means "faith PLUS deeds".

Heb. 11:6 gives us a Biblical illustration of what "true faith" is. It says: "But withoutfauth it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

This verse could be twisted to mean that "faith" means believing that God exists and will reward everyone who believes. "Faith alone" is needed to receive a reward from
God. This is a flalse interpretation of the verse.

The true interpretation is "faith (believing God exists PLUS diligently seeking Him) EQUALS reward. Hence, one who believes in God but does not diligently seek Him does not plese God and will not receive any reward.

Ed

edpobre

18th July 2001, 10:19 AM

LouisBooth,

Ed: "The Bible doesn't say that accepting Christ as saviour makes you a child ofGod or saves you. Hence, this belief is false."

LB:Umm..yeah it does let me break it down for you..justification to the law=salvation because that is what is keeping us from "getting" to God. Galatians Chapter 2 and 3 are a direct answer to that You need to check your bible again before saying statements like that. It is by faith alone we are saved.[/quote

As you pointed out earlier, "faith alone" is not true faith. And nowhere in Galatians does it say tht accepting Christ as savior makes anyone a child of God. Paul was talking to people who have not only acquired the right but have actually become children of God.

You wrote:Eps 2:8-10 "For is is by farace you have been saved, THOURGH FAITH, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works (ie baptism, good deeds, cirumsision) so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, cretaed in christ Jesus to do good forks, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

See that faith alone part

I don't see the word "ALONE" in the verse. God does not allow anyone to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word. As apostle James said, "faith only" does not justifiy a man. It must be faith accompanied by deeds. Paul was referring to "works of law" (Galatians chapters 2 and 3).

Ed

edpobre

18th July 2001, 10:29 AM

Josephus,

You wrote: As far as I understand it, we are asked to do two things in our life:

1. Recieve Jesus as our Savior from sin and death.

2. Make Jesus Lord of our lives.

It would be of more help to others if you cited the scripture that supports your understanding. The reason I'm here is to share what I believe are TRUTHS that could lead one to salvation and the attainment of eternal life. And I believe that the WORD of God is TRUTH (John 17:17).

I know too that posters in these boards have different understanding of certain concepts so I post these ideas to motivate those who desire to seek the truth to examine their own beliefs and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ed

edpobre

18th July 2001, 10:41 AM

zamar,

You wrote: The Bible also says that "all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

So put that in your legalistic pipe and smoke it.

While it is true that "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Roms. 10:13), not everyone can call upon the name of the Lord.

If you continue to Rom. 10:14-15, you will note that those who do not believe cannot call. And those who have not HEARD the Lord cannot believe in the Lord. They have not HEARD the Lord because nobody preaches. The preachers they are listening to are not sent by God so they have not HEARD the Lord.

This is supported by Jesus' statement that "not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven..." (Matt. 7:21).

Ed

edpobre

18th July 2001, 11:06 AM

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

This verse above, says that those that recived Him, and believe in HIs name have already been given the power (Salvation and redemption from sin) to become a Child of God.

Given the power does not mean given salvation and forgiveness of sins. That is an ADDITION to the word of God. The verse mens what it says. One who receives Jesus is given the power to become a child of God. It does not automatically make one a child of God. That power has to be turned on.

How can that power be turned on? Gal. 4:4-5 gives us the answer. God sent His son to redeem us that we might receive adoption as sons.

Ed: After you receive Jesus, you must be redeemed by his blood for you to receive the adoption as son of God (Gal. 4:4-5).

ZC:The redemption is instantaneous. You do not have to eartn it, or do anything after accpeting Jesus for who He says He is. Once you accpet Him, you are redeemed.

Taken with John 1:12, it doesn't look that way. First you receive Jesus and are given the right to become a child of God. Then Jesus redeems you with his blood so your sins are forgiven. That's when you become an adopted child of God.

You wrote: Lets look at Galations 4:4-5

4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Here God send Jesus to earth to die for us...

4:5 "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

Here He redeems us as a result of that act. Once He did this, the option to recieve the adoption was available. Notice the verse says "might". Some will not recive the adoption, becasue they will reject the truth. But those that accept the truth, will recive the adoption and be made Sons of God.

Zone, not everyone is redeemed by the blood of Christ. That's why not everyone becomes a child of God. Redemption comes first before one is reconciled to God to make peace with Him and become His adopted child.

Christ is the savior of his church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for his church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased his church ih his blood (Acts 20:2:cool: . That's why postle Peter told members of Christ's body or church that they were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ (1 Peter 1?:18-19).

Christ redeems with his blood those who are individually members of his body (Rom. 12:4-5) and are thus adopted as sons of God.

Hence, accepting Christ as personal Lord and savior does not save anyone who refuses to enter the fold through Christ. The fold or flock is the Church of Christ that he purchased with his blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

Apostle Paul called members of the body Churches of Christ (Rom. 16:16).

Ed

LouisBooth

19th July 2001, 01:47 AM

"I don't see the word "ALONE" in the verse. God does not allow anyone to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word. "

It says by faith..and thats it..faith alone..that's all it takes..;)

As apostle James said, "faith only" does not justifiy a man. It must be faith accompanied by deeds. Paul was referring to "works of law" (Galatians chapters 2 and 3)."

You misunderstand James message. He is saying what good is faith without works..why..because the natural sign of a true faith is works...you look at the works and know there is faith not the other way around.

"And nowhere in Galatians does it say tht accepting Christ as savior makes anyone a child of God. "

Umm..it says that abram was justified by faith..and because of this ..read on man..you're gonna get it..We are sons of God because we are new creations in christ. This happens when we have true faith in him and are cleansed by his blood.

edpobre

20th July 2001, 12:59 AM

LouisBooth,

Heb. 11:6 tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please God. For he who comes to God must believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Let me ask you LB, suppose a man says he has faith that God exists and rewards those who diligently seek Him. But this man does not seek God at all. What good is this man's faith? Will his faith do him any good? No, his faith is dead.

As you yourself said Louis, faith without works is not "true" faith. You may say you have faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, you have faith that Jesus is truly your savior, you have faith that Christ will come back to bring to himself his disciples as he promised. But you refuse to abide in his words and obey his commands. You refuse to do God's will. You refuse to be baptized. You refuse to become a member of his body or church. What good will your faith do you? Will your faith save you? No, your faith is dead.

Ed

ZoneChaos

20th July 2001, 02:23 PM

First you receive Jesus and are given the right to become a child of God. Then Jesus redeems you with his blood so your sins are forgiven. That's when you become an adopted child of God.

Ok. then enlighten me please..

Between recieve Christ as my savior, and Jesus redeeming me, what else must I do? You have yet to list that step in your doctrine. You say first you, then Jesus, but if these don't happen at the samed time.. why the hold up? Why does Jesus wait, and for howlong? what is the catalyst for Jesus to get around to deciding that we will redeem someone who has the power to be redeemed?

edpobre

20th July 2001, 03:32 PM

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: Between recieve Christ as my savior, and Jesus redeeming me, what else must I do? You have yet to list that step in your doctrine. You say first you, then Jesus, but if these don't happen at the samed time.. why the hold up? Why does Jesus wait, and for howlong? what is the catalyst for Jesus to get around to deciding that we will redeem someone who has the power to be redeemed

As I have said before, your belief about receiving Jesus as your savior is not Biblical. You can only be redeemed by the blood of Christ if you are a member of the church that he purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:2:cool: . That church is the Church of Christ of which I am a member.

To become a member of our church, you must first listen to our ministers preach to you the true gospel of peace and reconciliation. After listening to the whole truth (not half-truths as most pastors do), you are then asked if you believe everything you heard. If you do, then you are placed under a six-month probation where you put into practice everything you learned. Then you are asked to decide whether to push through baptism or not. Here you are not forced to do anything against your will. You go through baptism, you are then sealed with the Spirit of Promise (that's the guarantee of your inheritance of eternal life until the redemption of the purchased possession) and your name is added to the Church registry of members.

Indeed ZC, narrow is the gate and difficult is the way to life and few find it. I am fortunate to be one of the few. I wish you were too.

Ed

ZoneChaos

20th July 2001, 03:39 PM

If you do, then you are placed under a six-month probation where you put into practice everything you learned. Then you are asked to decide whether to push through baptism or not. Here you are not forced to do anything against your will.

OK! NOw I finally got what I wanted fomr you. This statement above had no credibility with me. If you are syaing that all christians must go onsome probationary period from the time they Accept Chroist, until the time they are redeemed, then you, my friend, are a false prophet. That is not in the Word of God. It is not Biblical. I was never on probation, befroe I was redeemed. My God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God in the Bible, the One true GOd would nopt put anyone who truly beleives on probation...

So unless you admit that I can recieve redemption without going through a probationary period, then our conversations are done. I have presented you with the truth and it is up to you to find the lie hidden in what you beleive to be the truth.

LouisBooth

23rd July 2001, 08:36 PM

"But you refuse to abide in his words and obey his commands. You refuse to do God's will. You refuse to be baptized. You refuse to become a member of his body or church. What good will your faith do you? Will your faith save you? No, your faith is dead. "

Unmmm...NO ;) I never said any of that..don't put words in my mouth. :) I said they are not requirements for salvation. Look at daniel. He was a good man but always prayed at home in private. He never was baptised..yet he was saved by Christ when he came :) There is no biblical reference that any of the discpiles were baptised. I ask you what is church..it is when two or more are gathered together in his name ..it's a relationship with Christians. My faith isn't dead, but I don't have requirements on my faith...just that I truely believe. Yes I do agree that "works" should follow but they are not REQUIRED.

edpobre

23rd July 2001, 11:36 PM

LouisBooth,

Ed:"But you refuse to abide in his words and obey his commands. You refuse to do God's will. You refuse to be baptized. You refuse to become a member of his body or church. What good will your faith do you? Will your faith save you? No, your faith is dead. "

LB:Unmmm...NO I never said any of that..don't put words in my mouth. I said they are not requirements for salvation.

Do you have the authority to override Jesus LB?

You are saying that doing God's will is not a requirement for salvation when Jesus says - only he who does the will of the Father in heaven will enter the kingdom of heaven. Entering the kingdom of heaven means salvation, isn't it?

You are saying that baptism is not a requirement for salvation when Jesus says - he who believes and is baptized will be saved?

You are saying that becoming a member of his body is not a requirement for salvation when Jesus says - he who enters the fold through him will be save?

Do you truly believe Jesus LB?

You wrote: Look at daniel. He was a good man but always prayed at home in private. He never was baptised..yet he was saved by Christ when he came

Daniel did not need to be baptized to become a member of God's nation. He was instead circumcised to show proof that he was a Jew.

You wrote: There is no biblical reference that any of the discpiles were baptised. I ask you what is church..it is when two or more are gathered together in his name ..it's a relationship with Christians. My faith isn't dead, but I don't have requirements on my faith...just that I truely believe. Yes I do agree that "works" should follow but they are not REQUIRED.

The disciples did not have to be baptized to be ADDED to the church. Jesus was there physically to recognize them as members of his "little flock" (Luke 12:32). Baptism was only for those whom the apostles preached to as commanded by Jesus (Mark 16:15-16).

Incidentally, your understanding of a church is false. Church is not a "relationship with Christians." It is group of people who have submitted themselves to the will of God. Christ calls them "flock" and Apostle Paul calls them "Church of Christ."

Ed

LouisBooth

24th July 2001, 12:45 AM

"Do you have the authority to override Jesus LB? "

Nope but it sounds like you think you do.

"You are saying that baptism is not a requirement for salvation when Jesus says - he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

if you take verse out of context then you're not conveying what Jesus said. I can say Like to eat hot dogs and you can take it out of context and say I kill dogs and cook them and eat them. That is EXACTLY what you are doing now with each verse you quote. Read John chapter 3 its all about entering the kingdom.

"Daniel did not need to be baptized to become a member of God's nation. He was instead circumcised to show proof that he was a Jew."

hmm..where is the verse for that? ;) You won't find it. but if you look at the CONTEXT (that is what you lack in looking at the other verses) you will see he was a jew in a jewish family and they did circumsice their childeren. without context you can't assume this.

"Incidentally, your understanding of a church is false. Church is not a "relationship with Christians." It is group of people who have submitted themselves to the will of God. Christ calls them "flock" and Apostle Paul calls them "Church of Christ.""

Okay..now is the time for stirness..YOU ARE WRONG. It is written that where one or two are gathered together in my name I am there also (paraphrase). It is you who do NOT understand what a church is. Look at the greatest commandment. Love God and love people. How do you do that? RELATIONSHIPS. It takes time to show someone you love them.

On a side note: Check acts chapter 16:30..what did Paul say for them to be saved (ie salvation) "He brought them out and sakes "sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved..." There is NO mention of baptism, circumscion or anything else ed. They took them to be baptised because that is a natural act if you are saved..it is not a requirment or he would have said so.

Back to the baptism. If you look in Romans chapter 6 you see that it is symbolic. check this verse "We were therfore buried with him through baptism into death...It is not a requirement. You still have yet to show me a verse for that. mark 16 says nothing about the idea that if you are not baptised you are not saved.

edpobre

24th July 2001, 10:09 PM

LouisBooth,

Ed:"You are saying that baptism is not a requirement for salvation when Jesus says - he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

LB:if you take verse out of context then you're not conveying what Jesus said. I can say Like to eat hot dogs and you can take it out of context and say I kill dogs and cook them and eat them. That is EXACTLY what you are doing now with each verse you quote. Read John chapter 3 its all about entering the kingdom.

Chapter 3 of John is about believing Jesus to attain eternal life. What does believing Jesus mean to you Louie?

Jesus instructs his disciples to preach the gospel. He tells them that he who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:15-6). I believe what Jesus says as it is exactly written. How can you say that I'm not conveying what Jesus said? To me, believing Jesus (John chapter 3) also involves believing and obeying what he says.

Jesus says that not everyone who says to him, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). Again, I believe what Jesus says as it is exactly written. To me, believing Jesus (John chapter 3) also involves believing what Jesus says and doing the will of God.

Ed

LouisBooth

25th July 2001, 12:04 AM

"Chapter 3 of John is about believing Jesus to attain eternal life. What does believing Jesus mean to you Louie? "

Umm..ed I don't think you read chapter 3 close enough..he clearely says "enter the kingdom" ;) It also says that anyone who believes stands NOT condemned..nothing about baptism there either ;) should I go on to the rest of the NT or is John 3 enough?

"To me, believing Jesus (John chapter 3) also involves believing and obeying what he says."

Ahh..key statement.."to you" you are adding something and that is just what you accused me of doing and said it was wrong. You change your WHOLE theology about salvation based on one work in one verse in that doesn't even appear in most early manuscripts? (just to me) that doesn't sound like a good idea..rather find in all over (faith alone saves).

"Jesus says that not everyone who says to him, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). "

Yes, Look at that verse closely ...it talks about works they did..deeds claimed in his name...oh..and its Matt 7:21 not 7:41..there is no 7:41 :) Look at what that passage is talking about..again it speaks of recognizing the tree by its fruit..This is because a true believer will bear good fruit. This DOES NOT mean fruit is required.
That is not what it says.

edpobre

26th July 2001, 12:08 PM

LouisBooth,

Ed: "Chapter 3 of John is about believing Jesus to attain eternal life. What does believing Jesus mean to you Louie? "

LB:Umm..ed I don't think you read chapter 3 close enough..he clearely says "enter the kingdom" It also says that anyone who believes stands NOT condemned..nothing about baptism there either should I go on to the rest of the NT or is John 3 enough?

You are being deceived by Satan by making you believe that CONTEXT is the key to understanding the Bible. Just because baptism is not mentioned in chapter 3 of John does not mean that it is not important for salvatiopn. 1 Cor. 2:13 tells us that the spiritual way to teach the word of God is to compare spiritual things with spiritual.

It is clear in Mark 16:16 that baptism is required for salvation. Jesus said it himself. And unless you are authorized to disregard what Jesus says, please stop telling people that baptism is ot required for salvation because you are only leading them to sudden destruction.

Ed:"To me, believing Jesus (John chapter 3) also involves believing and obeying what he says."

LB:Ahh..key statement.."to you" you are adding something and that is just what you accused me of doing and said it was wrong. You change your WHOLE theology about salvation based on one work in one verse in that doesn't even appear in most early manuscripts? (just to me) that doesn't sound like a good idea..rather find in all over (faith alone saves).

I'm only putting back what you have SUBTRACTED from the word of God Louie. In John 8:31, Jesus clearly says to those who believed him that they are indeed his disciples if they abide (stay or keep) in his words. In Luke 6:46 Jesus says, "But why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord' and not do the things I say?" Jesus follows it up by saying that a "foolish man is one who hears his words and not do them (Luke 6:47-49).

Ed:"Jesus says that not everyone who says to him, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). "

LB:Yes, Look at that verse closely ...it talks about works they did..deeds claimed in his name...oh..and its Matt 7:21 not 7:41..there is no 7:41 Look at what that passage is talking about..again it speaks of recognizing the tree by its fruit..This is because a true believer will bear good fruit. This DOES NOT mean fruit is required. That is not what it says.

You are deliberately missing the point Louie. A true believer is one who does the will of the Father in heaven. He is the one who bears good fruit. One who does not do the will of the Father does not bear good fruit and will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Do you know the will of God Louie? Have you done it? You won't answer this because you don't know. All you know is "faith alone" saves and that's sad.

Ed

edpobre

26th July 2001, 12:21 PM

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: I was never on probation, befroe I was redeemed. My God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God in the Bible, the One true GOd would nopt put anyone who truly beleives on probation...

You say you were not put on probation before you were redeemed. How were you redeemed Zone? Where do you find thjose who are redeemed Zone? You also say that God would not put on probation anyone who "truly" believes. What do you mean by one who "truly" believes? How do we know when one "truly" believes or not? What are the things that one who "truly" believes believes in?

You wrote: So unless you admit that I can recieve redemption without going through a probationary period, then our conversations are done. I have presented you with the truth and it is up to you to find the lie hidden in what you beleive to be the truth.

The only truth I know is the word of God Zone. Jesus says so himself in John 17:17. The truth is the only thing that sanctifies. Your answers to my questions will tell you and me whether you have the truth or not.

Ed

ZoneChaos

26th July 2001, 01:09 PM

You say you were not put on probation before you were redeemed. How were you redeemed Zone?

I was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ, through the Grace of God. "I have been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb, filled with the Hooly Ghosdt, I am.. all my sins are washed away.. I've been redeemed." ;)

Where do you find thjose who are redeemed Zone? They are my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

What do you mean by one who "truly" believes?

Beleives in accordance with scripture, toward salvation. In your "process" there are elements that are not of scripture. I question your claim to Christianity, becasue of this. I follow Scripture, you seem to follow scripture, and something else.

How do we know when one "truly" believes or not?

As the Bible says, I will know Christains by their fruit. I do not see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in your post of the "process" of salvation.

What are the things that one who "truly" believes believes in?

The Bible, and its author ;)

The only truth I know is the word of God Zone. Jesus says so himself in John 17:17. The truth is the only thing that sanctifies. Your answers to my questions will tell you and me whether you have the truth or not.

Then quote the verse that demonstrates the probation period for starters.

edpobre

26th July 2001, 02:47 PM

HTML Comments are not allowed

ZoneChaos

26th July 2001, 03:14 PM

Anyone who can talk can say the same thing.

And anyone that can talk can say what you are saying, but that does not make it true. There are things you have said, for which you have yet to provide a verse to support the statement. You have verses that you twist and use to rationalize, but you claim that your rationalization is fact.

So that you may know Zone, those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ receive the adoption as sons of God (Gal. 4:5). In Paul's letter to the Romans, he referred to them as children of God (Rom. 8:16-17).

I know this and do not dispute it. And I have already told you I knew this and didn't dispute it. For future referecne, I agree with and accept all the verses you quote. ;)

Church of Christ - NOT the so-called "Universal Church."

Please expand on the differences.

Show me Zone which of my "process" you think is scripture plus something else. We are seeking the truth, remember?

I have put in bold, what is not suported by scripture.

To become a member of our church, you must first listen to our ministers preach to you the true gospel of peace and reconciliation. After listening to the whole truth (not half-truths as most pastors do), you are then asked if you believe everything you heard. If you do, then you are placed under a six-month probation where you put into practice everything you learned. Then you are asked to decide whether to push through baptism or not. Here you are not forced to do anything against your will. You go through baptism, you are then sealed with the Spirit of Promise (that's the guarantee of your inheritance of eternal life until the redemption of the purchased possession) and your name is added to the Church registry of members.

So... please explain the scriptural reference to a 6 month probation

Explain why Baptism is key in Salvation

Explains the definition os "Spirit of Promoise" and why spirit and promise are capitalized.

And explain the Church Registry of Members, and how this may or may not differ from the Book of Life.

I understand Zone. Because one only sees what one wants to see.

NOt with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the Gift of Discernemnt. IT is though this that we know who are ture and who are false prophets.

I beleive in all 6 points. BUt, I also beleive that you are not a member of the Church of Christ. You may have joined an organization founded my a man who calls this organizatiojn by the same name, but The Church of Christ, the Bride, the Body, existed well before your organization existed, of which you are a member.

Which is why I want you to explain the organization of which you are an an individual member...

1 Peter 1:6-7: "... you have been grieved by various TRIALS, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Hate to burst your Bubble, but Peter was writing to a group of people who were already CHristians, already saved, and already children of God. As Christians, we still go through trials. That verse does not support nor referecne a "probation" of any sort. IF it did, then there woulod be no Christians, becasue trials last until we leave this earth and enter into His Kingdom.

edpobre

26th July 2001, 04:20 PM

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: And anyone that can talk can say what you are saying, but that does not make it true. There are things you have said, for which you have yet to provide a verse to support the statement. You have verses that you twist and use to rationalize, but you claim that your rationalization is fact.

Tell me the verses which you claim I twist. Show me the things I said that you claim I have yet to show biblical proof to support it.

And by the way, I haven't seen the answers to the questions I have been asking you in earlier posts. Where are your text proofs for the three step salvation you posted earlier?

Ed:Church of Christ - NOT the so-called "Universal Church."

ZC:Please expand on the differences.

The Church of Christ is never described as "universal" in the Bible. What is described as "universal" is the Mother of Harlots who sits on many waters (Rev. 17:1).

Catholics and Protestants describe the "Universal Church" as the spiritual "body of Christ" composed of all "believers" regardless of denomination. This means that the "Universal Church" is composed of different groups of people or many bodies, who have different beliefs, different faiths, different hopes, and different baptisms. The only thing they have in common is their belief that Jesus is God.

The Church of Christ (not the Protestant denomination) is one body, having one spirit, one hope, one faith, one baptism, one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:4-6). There is one central Administration that keeps the unity of the one body intact.

You wrote: So... please explain the scriptural reference to a 6 month probation

Explain why Baptism is key in Salvation

Explains the definition os "Spirit of Promoise" and why spirit and promise are capitalized.

And explain the Church Registry of Members, and how this may or may not differ from the Book of Life.

1 Peter 1:6-7 explains that true believers are put to various trials and tested by fire. Whether this is done before or/and after their baptism is not important. It is the discretion of the church Administrtion to administer such tests.

Outside the Church of Christ, there is no redemption through Christ's blood, there is no forgiveness of sins and there is no salvation. Therefore, one can only be saved by becoming a member of the Church of Christ. However, nobody can become a member unless he is baptized. Thus, baptism is the key to salvation as Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

Eph. 1:13-14 explains the role of the Holy Spirit of promise which is the guarantee that true believers will receive God's promise of salvation. One can only receive this seal when one is redeemed by becoming a member of the Church of Christ.

The Church Registry is the same as the Book of Life. What is written here on earth is also written in heaven. This was Jesus' promise to Peter when he said he will build his church.

You wrote: NOt with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the Gift of Discernemnt. IT is though this that we know who are ture and who are false prophets.

Mark 4:11 says that only those who are members of Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32) are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to those who are outside, all things come in parables.

You wrote: I beleive in all 6 points. BUt, I also beleive that you are not a member of the Church of Christ. You may have joined an organization founded my a man who calls this organizatiojn by the same name, but The Church of Christ, the Bride, the Body, existed well before your organization existed, of which you are a member.

Which is why I want you to explain the organization of which you are an an individual member...

If I knew your mailing address, I could mail you some materials to study or direct you to one of our locales nearest you. My e-mail is: edpobre@eudoramail.com

I really think you should study my organization further. You have nothing to lose but everything to gain. If after further study you still think my church is false, then stay away from it.

But if my church is true, then you will know how to position yourself and your loved ones for the second coming of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Ed

savinggrc

26th July 2001, 05:11 PM

Have you all ever heard this definition?

A cult is any group that says that if you're not one of them, then you ain't saved.

For example, there are some Baptists out there that say that only by receiving baptism from someone who was baptised by a Baptist who was baptized by a Baptist who was...baptised by John the Baptist are you really saved. They are a cult. That does not mean, of course, that no folks in that church are saved, just that the church is a cult.

Just curious.

Michael

26th July 2001, 09:03 PM

ROBERT ANTON ("Bob") WILSON

"In Doubt We Trust" Cults, Religions and B.S. in General":

"...There are two clear-cut and empirical lines between a 'cult' and a 'religion': (a) membership (voters) and (b) bank account, (b) being a function of (a). If a group has enough members to influence elections, it will also have a large bank account, and these two factors will guarantee that the politicians, the cops and the corporate media will treat it with respect, as a 'religion'. With few members and little money, the same group could be called a 'cult' and treated accordingly, even to the extent of toasting, roasting and charbroiling, as in Waco.
"This line remains obvious and visible to all observers; the only problem arises when people try to draw a less 'materialistic', more metaphysical distinction between one gang of True Believers and another. Materialistic questions can be answered - e.g., 'Does that match-box have any matches left in it?' Metaphysical questions about 'mind control' or any other immeasurable 'entity' or 'essense' cannot be answered, and the best that can be said of them is that arguing about them has provided a certain amount of intellectual entertainment, or combat, for a few thousand years, for those who enjoy that kind of passtime. Sort of like chess, you know.

"I have no commitment to materialism as a philosophy which pretends to explain everything (which no correlation of words can ever do, and a philosophy is never more than a correlation of words). But, restricting myself to the 'materialistic'/scientific method of asking questions that have definite experiential answers, I observe no difference in operation between 'cults' or 'religions'. Catholic nuns and priests vowing celibacy seem no weirder or less weird than Heaven's Gate members who also make that choice. Mormon extraterrestrial cosmology seems as goofy as Scientology, etc. Religions and cults all use the same techniques of brain damage or 'mind control', i.e., they all instill B.S. - Belief Systems..."

Michael

26th July 2001, 09:32 PM

>>A cult is any group that says that if you're not one of them, then you ain't saved.

Hmmm. That seems to apply to every "religion" on the planet too then doesn't it?

LouisBooth

26th July 2001, 11:46 PM

"I don't see the word "ALONE" in the verse. God does not allow anyone to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word. As apostle James said, "faith only" does not justifiy a man. It must be faith accompanied by deeds. Paul was referring to "works of law" (Galatians chapters 2 and 3)."

:lol: ed, don't you realize you are saying that you have to "do something to be saved" ..that's EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW IS!!! Calatians chapters 2 and 3 talk about faith alone..should I quote..Check verse 16 of chapter three..know that a man is not justifed by observing the law (physical acts ie sabbath law and/or baptism ;) ) but by faith in Jesus christ." there is a period..it means thats it..nothing else included :)

"It is clear from these verses that faith only (without deeds or works) is not true faith and no one is justified by faith only. "

hmm..false conclusion..you CAN conclude that it is not true faith I agree..but that's the ONLY thing you can conclude.

"Paul was referring to the observance of the law as the WORKS that justifies no one. "

I agree..that tells us that it means faith..that's it ;) He is saying that he..a tree can be barren and you can't tell what kind of tree it is..but when it bears fruit..he has to bear the right kind of fruit..get it..its faith alone..but works naturally follow..but ARE NOT a requirement.

""Faith alone" is needed to receive a reward from
God. This is a flalse interpretation of the verse."

I agree, but we weren't talking about rewards but salvation which is a little bit different :)

"Hence, one who believes in God but does not diligently seek Him does not plese God and will not receive any reward.
"

Agreed again..but this doesn't mean they are not saved...only not rewarded :)

ZoneChaos

27th July 2001, 12:22 PM

And by the way, I haven't seen the answers to the questions I have been asking you in earlier posts. Where are your text proofs for the three step salvation you posted earlier?

The "3 step" was posted by another I beleive, but I agree with what the poster said. The verses we use are the same you use, but you find a different meaning in them than we do.

The Church of Christ is never described as "universal" in the Bible. What is described as "universal" is the Mother of Harlots who sits on many waters (Rev. 17:1).

And, I have never described it as Universal. If you re-read all our conversations, you will notice that you are the one who brought the term universal into the conversation. The Universal church you speak of in Rev. will be the church of the Anti-Christ. That is not set up yet, so I, know I am not a member of it ;)

Catholics and Protestants describe the "Universal Church" as the spiritual "body of Christ" composed of all "believers" regardless of denomination. This means that the "Universal Church" is composed of different groups of people or many bodies, who have different beliefs, different faiths, different hopes, and different baptisms. The only thing they have in common is their belief that Jesus is God.

TO clarify your definition: The thing they have in common, are adhering to the basic Doctrines of Salvation which deal with Salvation. The reason denominations exist in the Christian Church, stem from man trying to understand things which rely partially on interpretation. However, while I feel that seperation of the church into Denominations can at times be a detriment to the Christian Church, none of the issues which result in this seperation are needed for salvation.

The Church of Christ (not the Protestant denomination) is one body, having one spirit, one hope, one faith, one baptism, one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:4-6). There is one central Administration that keeps the unity of the one body intact.

And, within what I refer to as the Christian Church, the same above applies. The only difference is that our Administration is God ;)

1 Peter 1:6-7 explains that true believers are put to various trials and tested by fire. Whether this is done before or/and after their baptism is not important. It is the discretion of the church Administrtion to administer such tests.

Originally you claimed that this "probationary" period happened before salvation (salvation being redemption, forgiveness, and ultimately being adopted as a Child of God).

IN your quote above, you now claim it can happen in the middle of your "process".

Lets look at more of I Peter...

Chapter 1

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here we see Peter writing to the chuch(es) mentioned in the beginning verses, and he says "blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which... hath begotten us.. It is clear the both Peter and those he is writing to are already "begotten" agian, or reborn, and, like Jesus, consider God as the Father.

4. "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,"

5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

6 "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:"

7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

And, with the above considered, we see the trials of Faith are occuring after thier salvation.

14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:"

15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;"

16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear"

And in these verses Peter is referring to them, as Obedient Children of the Father.

So here we have beleivers who are Children of God, and are going trials in the Faith.

So, I ask you, does your "Administration" keep issuing these trials after a perosn of your church becomes a Child of God?

Outside the Church of Christ, there is no redemption through Christ's blood, there is no forgiveness of sins and there is no salvation. Therefore, one can only be saved by becoming a member of the Church of Christ. However, nobody can become a member unless he is baptized. Thus, baptism is the key to salvation as Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

Keep in mind that one of the big issues here is who's definition od "Church of Christ" is valid.

Also, I believe that the Baptism Jesus refers to is not a ceremony of water, but a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also consider this Baptism sperate form what is referred to as the "Filling of the Holy Spirit".

John 1:33 "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

We see here that Jesus is described as the one who Baptizes with the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Here we see John the Baptist making claim that while his way of Baptism is a step toward repentance, it will be replaced iwth the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus brings.

Eph. 1:13-14 explains the role of the Holy Spirit of promise which is the guarantee that true believers will receive God's promise of salvation. One can only receive this seal when one is redeemed by becoming a member of the Church of Christ.

Just to Clarify.. the "Spirit" is reference here is the Holy Spirit. I just wanted to clear up any misconception that this was a spirit seperate from God.

The Church Registry is the same as the Book of Life. What is written here on earth is also written in heaven. This was Jesus' promise to Peter when he said he will build his church.

Sp hy call it a "Chruch Registry"? I mean, unless you are writing name sin a book that was bound almost 2000 years ago... I doubt there is a mirror version of the Book of Life floationg around on Earth somewhere.

Mark 4:11 says that only those who are members of Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32) are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to those who are outside, all things come in parables.

Well, while he doe snot actually say "members" I will agree that He is talking about Christians (or Children of God, as you prefer to call us).

If after further study you still think my church is false, then stay away from it.

Heh, until now, I have never heard a "Christian" tell those who may reject Christ, to go away. ;)

But if my church is true, then you will know how to position yourself and your loved ones for the second coming of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I know in my heart I am already there...

edpobre

28th July 2001, 05:28 PM

LouisBooth,

Ed:"I don't see the word "ALONE" in the verse. God does not allow anyone to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word. As apostle James said, "faith only" does not justifiy a man. It must be faith accompanied by deeds. Paul was referring to "works of law" (Galatians chapters 2 and 3)."

LB: ed, don't you realize you are saying that you have to "do something to be saved" ..that's EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW IS!!! Calatians chapters 2 and 3 talk about faith alone..should I quote..Check verse 16 of chapter three..know that a man is not justifed by observing the law (physical acts ie sabbath law and/or baptism ) but by faith in Jesus christ." there is a period..it means thats it..nothing else included

I fully agree with Gal. 2:16 Louis. No one is justified by WORKS of the LAW. We can only be justified by faith in Christ. However, as Apostle James states in James 2:17, faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. For as a body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:26)

It seems to me then, that "faith in Christ" Biblically means much more than what most people have been made to believe. Just what do you understand by "faith in Christ" Louis?

Apostle James seems to be saying that "faith in Christ" means listening to Jesus, believing what he says and obeying his teaching (John 8:31). Isn't this what you understand by having "faith in Christ" Louis?

To fully understand the meaning of having "faith in Christ" we must search the scripture and compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Let's start our search at Romans 5:1 where it says: "Therefore, having been justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Thus, we see that the people whom apostle Paul was writing to have been justified by FAITH and have made PEACE with God.

We continue our search to Rom. 5:8 where Paul is telling these people who have been justified by FAITH and who have made PEACE with God that Christ died FOR them. Did Christ die for ALL? The verse says Christ died ONLY for these people who have been justified by faith and have made peace with God.

And on to verse 9 which says that because Christ died for them, they are now justified by his BLOOD and will be saved from God's wrath.

Romans 5:10 tells us that these people used to be enemies of God but because they have been justified by Christ's BLOOD, they are now reconciled to God.

To summarize Louis, those who are justified by faith in Christ have made peace with God and because Christ died for them, they are also justified by his BLOOD and have been reconciled to God.

But who are these people and where can we find them? Did Christ die for anyone else beside these people whom Paul was talking to?

Let's swing our search to Ephesians 5:25 and read: "Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it." So there, Christ gave himself for the church.

What does this mean? It means that Christ died for the church. Acts 20:28 Lamsa says that Christ purchased the Church of Christ with his own blood.

Therefore, the people whom Paul was talking to were members of the church that Christ purchased with his own blood. Apostle Paul called these members Churches of Christ (Roms. 16:16).

What further Biblical proof is there to show that these people were indeed members of the church? Eph. 2:15-16 tells us that Christ created in himself one new man that he might reconcile them both in one body through the cross. That one body is the church of which Christ is the head (col. 1:1:cool: .

Hence, "faith in Christ" actually means receiving the messengers sent by God, listening to messengers sent by God, believing what these messengers sent by God preach, repenting and being converted (turning away from false beliefs and making the decision to enter the fold - John 10:9) and getting baptized into the church of Christ.

This is what true "faith in Christ" is all about. Ignore one step and you have a "faith that is dead." The first three steps constitute "faith" and the last two steps constitute "works" that make "faith" perfect.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means doing the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). That means you can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means obeying Christ's teaching to "enter the fold through him" (John 10:9,7). That means you will be saved.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means Christ dying for you (his body) as propitiation for your sins and becoming God's righteousness in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) because he being the head can die for the sins of his body in accordance with God's righteousness regarding sin (Deut. 24:16).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and has received adoption as son (Gal. 4:4-5) and as son, an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means that God has delivered you from the power of darkness and has translated you to the kingdom of His son in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ in whom you have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph. 1:7).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ and you will meet Jesus in the air when he comes again on judgment day (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Would you call anyone a "cult" for sharing this "good news?"

Ed

ZoneChaos

29th July 2001, 12:43 AM

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means doing the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). That means you can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means obeying Christ's teaching to "enter the fold through him" (John 10:9,7). That means you will be saved.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means Christ dying for you (his body) as propitiation for your sins and becoming God's righteousness in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) because he being the head can die for the sins of his body in accordance with God's righteousness regarding sin (Deut. 24:16).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and has received adoption as son (Gal. 4:4-5) and as son, an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means that God has delivered you from the power of darkness and has translated you to the kingdom of His son in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ in whom you have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph. 1:7).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ and you will meet Jesus in the air when he comes again on judgment day (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Whew! Good to know I am there...

edpobre

1st August 2001, 07:54 AM

ZoneChaos,

The true Church of Christ has an authorized messenger sent by God. She has only one God, the Father and only one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

Does your church have these unique characteristics?

Ed

savinggrc

1st August 2001, 09:16 AM

The church's only "authorized messenger" is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great I AM. :)

ZoneChaos

1st August 2001, 11:44 AM

Does your church have these unique characteristics?

Yep.

edpobre

1st August 2001, 03:36 PM

savinggrc,

You say that Christ is the only authorized messenger of your church. How come you don't believe what he says that he is a man and the Father is the only true God?

How come you don't believe the importance of the church in salvation?

Ed

LouisBooth

6th August 2001, 09:21 PM

ed, Christ says that you only need to believe in him to be saved. :)

edpobre

7th August 2001, 06:54 PM

LouisBooth,

ed, Christ says that you only need to believe in him to be saved.

Please read the verses very well LB and find out if Jesus said "you only need to believe him to be saved."

I believe Jesus also said: "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." (Mark 16:16).

Jesus also said: "I am the door. If anyone enters in by me he shall be saved." (John 10:9).

Jesus further said: "Not everyone who says to me ,'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my father in heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

Ed

LouisBooth

8th August 2001, 12:16 AM

edpobre

11th August 2001, 11:41 PM

First, lets address your verses...Mark 16:16..First of all most older manuscripts do NOT have Mark 16-20 so basing docterine on this is NOT smart. Second of all This verse says that those that do not believe will be condemened indicating belief is the only requirement. You left out 1. context and 2. the rest of the verse.

Reason dictates that anyone who does not believe is not baptized. Therefore he will not be saved. If belief is the only requirement, why did the apostles baptize after their listeners believed (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:30-32)?

John 10:9 ..well that says nothing about baptism..just that it is only through christ you can be saved. I agree. But if you look eariler in 9:35 what does he ask the man.."Do you believe.." not are you baptised..

John 10:9 is about entering the flock or church in order to be saved. No one can be added into a church without baptism. That was true during Jesus' time and that's still true during these last days. Just because John 9:35 does not mention baptism does not mean that baptism is not necessary. Jesus says in Mark 16:16 that he whop believes and is baptized will be saved. John 9:35 cannot be taken alone and make Mark 16:16 false.

Now Mat 7:21 You are missing context. Here he is talking about judging a tree by its fruit. That I agree with. You can assume a person is a christian or not be the way they live (ie their fruits) BUT you cannot and do not know his heart. So you cannont truely judge if he/she is saved or not. Check verses 13-23 for context (which you again left out).

Again, we see the devil blinding you by making you think context instead of you thinking like a babe and believing what Jesus is clearly saying.

Anyone who does not do the will of God the Father will not enter the kingdom of heaven. By this verse alone we can know who will and who will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Okay..now some verses about faith..any book you want to look at specifically? Lets start with Mat since it is first in the cannon...If you look in chapter 9..why does he heal these people..FAITH When in chapter 14 Peter was sinking why was he sinking..little faith Okay..lets dig on the issue. You want a specific verse that says faith saves..if you take the bible as a whole it clearly says that but you want more..okay..check this verse then :

Romans 4:1-10 These verses say that Abramham was considered righteous before circumcision according to verse 10..why..his faith For this very reason (faith alone saves) Paul wrote to Galatia. the whole book talks about faith alone saves..Is that enough or are you still not willing to believe the truth?

Tell me how chapter 2 of James align with these verses you mentioned. Apostle James said "man is justified by works and not by faith only" (James 2:24). Read James 2:21 Louis. Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. And verse 26 Louis. For as the body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

This is the truth Louis. There is nothing in the Bible which says that man is justified by faith alone. You are being deceived into adding the word "alone" to the words of God and that's a violation of His command.

Ed

LouisBooth

13th August 2001, 10:02 PM

"Reason dictates that anyone who does not believe is not baptized. Therefore he will not be saved. If belief is the only requirement, why did the apostles baptize after their listeners believed (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:30-32)? "

Nope..reason doesn't dictate that when MANY times it is listed that it is only by believing we are saved. The reason they did it is because that was a cultural thing. :)

"No one can be added into a church without baptism. "

Umm..doesn't say that in John 10:9.

"John 9:35 cannot be taken alone and make Mark 16:16 false."

:lol: John 9:35 isn't false and I'm not saying that. It DOESN'T say that baptism is NESSISARY. There are more verses that say it is by faith or belief alone you are saved. Do you want to have a contest :lol: you come up with your verses that say in it that baptism is NESSISARY and I'll get the ones that say it is just faith. ;)

'Anyone who does not do the will of God the Father will not enter the kingdom of heaven. By this verse alone we can know who will and who will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

You are leaving out context of those verses Ed. Paul himself says that he does things he knows he shouldn't do and does the thing he hates most..does that mean he's not in heaven ed?

"Tell me how chapter 2 of James align with these verses you mentioned. "

Sure Ed, I can do that. First lets see who James is talking to..In the opening of the letter we can CLEARLY see he is talking to christians. See verse 2 and 19..he says brothers..He is talking to people that are ALREADY Christians. The theme of the book is summed up in chapter 1 verse 22..do not merely listen but do. He is saying to CHRISTIANS, live like you're supposed to. That's what James is about. Its NOT saying that if you don't work for your salvation you can't have it. CONTEXT ed, CONTEXT.

"This is the truth Louis. There is nothing in the Bible which says that man is justified by faith alone. You are being deceived into adding the word "alone" to the words of God and that's a violation of His command."

and nothing says that it you have to be baptised to be saved ed ;) let me list some verses for you...

Hebrews chapter 11
Ephesians Chapter 2:8
Galatians 2:15
Romans 3:25-26
Romans chapter 4
Should I go on?