Who is God the Holy Spirit?

[edpobre]

Friends.

God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and He has seven Spirits that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:5). The Holy Spirit we are talking about is either God the Father Himself because He is a spirit or one of the seven Spirits of God. And they are all holy.

The Spirit of Truth whom Jesus will send from the Father is definitely one of the seven Spirits of God. The Holy Spirit of promise that seals believers on their forehead (Eph. 1:13-14) is definitely another Spirit that comes from God. Now, which of the Seven spirits of God is the third person of the Trinity?

Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and he has flesh and bones unlike a Spirit which has none (Luke 24:39).

God is eternal because He has no beginning and ending, immortal because He cannot die, and invisible because no man has ever seen Him (1 Tim. 1:17); John 1:1:cool: . On the other hand, Jesus came and proeeded from God (John 8:42), he was born of a woman (Gal. 4:4). he was visible and seen by thousands, he died (he cried ‘My God, My God’ on the cross).

Jesus identified the Father as the only true God (John 17:3).

Clearly, the Bible does not support the "oneness" Pentecostal doctrine, the Trinity doctrine of Catholics and Protestants nor the Triune God doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventists.

Ed

[Josephus]

"God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and He has seven Spirits that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:5)."

Isaiah 11:2 explains what the seven spirits are. In Hebrew coloquialism, the "seven spirits of God" is a term used to refer to the Holy Spirit. The number seven is used to signifiy completeness.

And we know that the Holy Spirit is God because that's what 1 Corinthians 2:11 states:

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

Just as your spirit is you, as well as your mind is also you, and your body is also you, then so too is God's spirit still God, just as the Father is also God, and just as the Son is also God. Paul wrote: "In the same way..." I don't think Paul could have been more clear about his point, and therefore logic any more plain and reasonable.

Going on from here with this in mind.

You write: "Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and he has flesh and bones unlike a Spirit which has none (Luke 24:39)."

Let me ask you this? Do you have a spirit? Do you then have flesh?

We know a man has both. Why couldn't Jesus's spirit be the Spirit of God?

<><
Josephus

[savinggrc]

Why, how come I never thought of that?? ;)

It can't possibly be right because it's too easy.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: Isaiah 11:2 explains what the seven spirits are. In Hebrew coloquialism, the "seven spirits of God" is a term used to refer to the Holy Spirit. The number seven is used to signifiy completeness.

Isaiah 11:2 Revised Standard Version states: "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."

Isaiah 63:16 identifies the "Lord" addressed in Isaiah 11:2 as the Father. Isaiah 11:2 is saying that God the Father has a Spirit that is not a person separate from him. However, we may call God's Spirit God in a figurative way just as John called God's WORD God in a figurative way because like the WORD, the SPIRIT has the power of God who owns it.

You wrote: And we know that the Holy Spirit is God because that's what 1 Corinthians 2:11 states:

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

God is the Father who has the Spirit. It is the Father who is God not His spirit. 1 Cor. 2:11 says Spirit OF God not God the Holy Spirit. Just as the Bible calls Jesus Son OF God, not God the Son.

You wrote: Just as your spirit is you, as well as your mind is also you, and your body is also you, then so too is God's spirit still God, just as the Father is also God, and just as the Son is also God. Paul wrote: "In the same way..." I don't think Paul could have been more clear about his point, and therefore logic any more plain and reasonable.

Figuratively speaking, the spirit of God is also God because it has the power of God just as the word of God is also God (John 1:1) because it has the power of God who spoke it. But the spirit is not a separate and distinct person from God who owns the spirit just as the word is not a separate and distinct person from God who spoke it.

The Son of God is NOT also God because he is separate and distinct from God the Father. Besides, Jesus, the Son has identified the Father (separate and distinct from him) as the only true God.

You wrote: Going on from here with this in mind.

You write: "Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and he has flesh and bones unlike a Spirit which has none (Luke 24:39)."

Let me ask you this? Do you have a spirit? Do you then have flesh?

We know a man has both. Why couldn't Jesus's spirit be the Spirit of God?

Because what you would like to say is not what the Bible says. Jesus' spirit is the spirit of the son of God. God the Father is separate and distinct from the son. How could the spirit of the Father be the spirit of the Son?

How can your spirit be mine too my friend. Each man has his own spirit that goes back to God when he dies.


Ed

[ZoneChaos]

God the Father is separate and distinct from the son. How could the spirit of the Father be the spirit of the Son?

Becasue the Father and the Son are part of the same Trinty that also includes the Holy Spirit. These three are God. The Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God, of which all are. Thus The Son of God, who is God has a Spirit who is the Holy Spirit, and the Father, who is God, has a Spirit, who is also the Holy Spirit.

[Josephus]

ed,

"Isaiah 11:2 Revised Standard Version states..."

let's first get to the basics, and let's use the actual hebrew text that the RSV was translated from (and the text all other bibles have been translated from for that matter). Because I believe you are not reading the actual Hebrew for yourself from which your own bibles are based on, I shall not endeavor to answer your refutations based on another person's translation.

I would like to ask you what your version of God is, because I can't for the life of me figure out why God's spirit is not God ("except in a figurative way") unless your definition for God is different than mine. So I ask you again, please define for me: God.

You seem to think there is a distinction between "Spirit of" God and God. To me that sounds like more than one...god:

"God is the Father who has the Spirit. It is the Father who is God not His spirit. 1 Cor. 2:11 says Spirit OF God not God the Holy Spirit. Just as the Bible calls Jesus Son OF God, not God the Son."


Using your same logic in analogy:
The mind of edpobre is not edpobre.
The soul of edpobre is not edpobre.
The body of edpobre is edpobre, but not his spirit.

Am I missing something here?

Let me restate your beliefs as I seem to have processed them:

What is God? The Father.

What is the Father? God.

Is the Father a spirit? no, but God is the Father, the Father alone is God, but the Father owns a spirit.

This is confusing, ed. So I ask again, "what is the Father?" Is he some sort of supreme conciousness person seperate and apart from his spirit, or is the spirit of God not actually the Father, it's ...just a spirit that is not the Father? I think that if you are confused at this point, that you need to recheck your theology on this.


i asked: Could jesus have had the spirit of God?

"...what you would like to say [about this] is not what the Bible says. Jesus' spiurit is the spirit of the son of God. "

actually, the bible doesn't say anything at all about the spirit of jesus. as far as i am concerned it is rather mute on the subject, unless of course the subject is already covered (in which case that subject is the Holy Spirit). And on issues the bible is mute about, areas of speculation are not areas I will ever consider it "ok" to derive my doctrine from - ever.


"How can your spirit be mine too my friend. Each man has his own spirit that goes back to God when he dies."

Our spirits are of the breath of life. All people born of man (from Adam) have that same breath of life adam had, which became tainted, and since it was hereditary, each one of us have that adam-god breath of life in us that does return to God if made righteous, or removed from God forever if judged unrighteous.

Jesus, however, was not born of Adam. Therefore he was not tained with sin, and thus his breath of life was different from ours (Adamites). That is why he could offer life to those perishing. We do not share the same breath of life with Jesus when we are born - we only can recieve it when we make him Lord and Savior of our lives. We become "adopted" as coheirs with Christ.

But let's not skew this topic off hand. We're talking about the deity of the Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Holy Ghost - that who is on the earth today, etc.

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: Becasue the Father and the Son are part of the same Trinty that also includes the Holy Spirit. These three are God. The Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God, of which all are. Thus The Son of God, who is God has a Spirit who is the Holy Spirit, and the Father, who is God, has a Spirit, who is also the Holy Spirit.

The Bible does not state that the Father and the son are part of the same Trinity that also includes the Holy Spirit. The Bible also doesn't say that the Son of God is God. Everything you say here is false because the Word of God doesn't support what you are saying.

Ed

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: I would like to ask you what your version of God is, because I can't for the life of me figure out why God's spirit is not God ("except in a figurative way&quot;) unless your definition for God is different than mine. So I ask you again, please define for me: God.

According to apostle Paul, there is only one God, the Father who is the creator (1 Cor. 8:6). And according to Rev. 5:6, God (the Father) has seven spirits that He sends out into all the world. These seven spirits of God are collectively called the spirit of God or Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is an integral part of the Father who is God. Thus, when the Father is called God, it includes the Holy Spirit which is an integral part of the Father.

Yo You seem to think there is a distinction between "Spirit of" God and God. To me that sounds like more than one...god:

"God is the Father who has the Spirit. It is the Father who is God not His spirit. 1 Cor. 2:11 says Spirit OF God not God the Holy Spirit. Just as the Bible calls Jesus Son OF God, not God the Son."

Using your same logic in analogy:
The mind of edpobre is not edpobre.
The soul of edpobre is not edpobre.
The body of edpobre is edpobre, but not his spirit.

Am I missing something here?

My spirit is not called Edpobre my friend. My body is not Edpobre, my mind is not Edpobre and my soul is not Edpobre.
The whole of me (mind, body and soul) is Edpobre. You cannot separate my mind from me and call it Edpobre.

The whole of the Father (which includes His spirit and His word) is called God. The whole of Jesus is called son of God.

You wrote: Let me restate your beliefs as I seem to have processed them:

What is God? The Father.

What is the Father? God.

Is the Father a spirit? no, but God is the Father, the Father alone is God, but the Father owns a spirit.

The Father Himself is a spirit because God is a spirit. The Father who is God has seven spirits that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6). These seven spirits are collectively called spirit of God or Holy Spirit. You cannot not separate the Holy Spirit from the Father and call it God. As I said, the whole of the Father is God.

Ed

[Josephus]

God has seven spirits now? I see, you don't believe in triunity, but you do believe in septunity.


We worship in spirit and in truth: which of the seven spirits do we worship in?

[savinggrc]

:lol: septunity :lol:

These 7 are one. :rollin:

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Apostle Paul says that "...for US (meaning Christians), there is only one God, the Father and only one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6).

The Father has seven spirits that He sends into all the erth (Rev. 5:6). These seven spirits are collectively called the Holy Spirit. Figuratively spreaking, the Holy Spirit, like God's WORD, is God because it carries the power of the Father whose spirit it is. The WORD was God because it carried the power of God who spoke it.

Still, the Father is the only true God (John 17:3), beluieve it or not!

Ed

[Josephus]

Still, the Father is the only true God (John 17:3), beluieve it or not!



Oh I see. The Father is the ONLY true God. So I take it that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not the only true God but instead are the false God?


Let me ask you this:

God said you should have no other gods before him.

If the Father is the only true God, and we only worship the true one God and no other, then ... do you worship Jesus?

[Wearynot]

The Father Himself is a spirit because God is a spirit.

Who or what was walking in the garden with Adam? Who or what was having a conversation with Abraham?

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: Oh I see. The Father is the ONLY true God. So I take it that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not the only true God but instead are the false God?

Do you consider Jesus and the Holy Spirit as Gods? Then you have made them false Gods! The truth is Jesus is a man (John 8:40) whom the Father sent into the world and the Holy Spirit is the seven spirits of God the Father whom He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6).

You wrote: Let me ask you this:

God said you should have no other gods before him.

If the Father is the only true God, and we only worship the true one God and no other, then ... do you worship Jesus?

While it is true that God commanded that there shall be no other gods before him, God did not give the commandment to worship Him only. There is nothing in the Bible which says that we should only worship God.

We worship Jesus because God commands us to worship him (Heb. 1:6; Phil. 2:9-10). The Father seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Worshipping Jesus in conformity to His command is worshipping Him in spirit and in truth and glorifies God the Father (Phil. 2:11).

Ed

[edpobre]

Wearynot,

You wrote: Who or what was walking in the garden with Adam? Who or what was having a conversation with Abraham?

Please give me the verses so I can answer your question.

Ed

[Iddie4Him]

Josephus,
I read this thread a little bit ago and it got me thinking, Is there more than one holy spirit? I think that the 7 spirits referred to in Rev 5:6 and even in Rev 1:4 can make them a bit hard to understand. The time i have spent reading has led me to believe that the spirits are the heads of the churches in those regions, I know this is wrong, But, further thoughts on this matter has got me thinking that they are Archangels that have been sent to protect and watch over the 7 churches of asia. Can you shed any light on this matter for me ?


To Edpobre
as far as who or what was talking to Adam and Abraham, The bible clearly states that it was God.

[edpobre]

Iddie4him,

Thanks for the input. The seven spirits that sit before the throne (Rev. 1:4) are definitely NOT God because the one who sits on the throne is God.

Ed

[Josephus]

Do you consider Jesus and the Holy Spirit as Gods?

Not seperate Gods, but one and the same God.

The truth is Jesus is a man (John 8:40)
- of course. So you could say that I believe this man is God.

Whom the Father sent into the world
- this I also agree with. Going with my first statement about there being one God, then you could say I believe that God sent himself to earth.


"and the Holy Spirit is the seven spirits of God the Father whom He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6)."

That verse doesn't even say that. It does not say the Holy Spirit is the seven spirits, and that these seven spirits are the Holy Spirit. Besides, this verse isn't even an actual eyewitness account Ed. Instead it's a vision, and as we know about dreams and visions, they are all symbols requiring interpretation. If they are actual factual events, then you don't honestly believe me to think that a dragon will literally cause a third of the stars to fall to the earth! Heck, even if one star hit the earth, the earth would never exist after it. It'd melt! I am still waiting for a biblical explanation for what exactly is the Holy Spirit if He's not God.


"While it is true that God commanded that there shall be no other gods before him, God did not give the commandment to worship Him only."

Well, isn't what you worship a god? Isn't that the definition of worship? Some people worship money. Is money a god? No, but people worship it. Worship of anything other than God is blasphemy because to worship means someone :

1.Honors and loves someone or something as a deity.
2.Regards someone or something with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion.

We can't serve both God and money. We can't have one God and then one lesser god. No! One is the master, and the only master we can have is God. Who we worship is the ONLY one we truly worship. All others are second best.

But speaking of worshiping - as if to prove my point about all others being second best if they aren't worshipped first and foremost:

Do you worship Jesus Christ? Have you worshipped this man? Do you worship him? Or do you worship the Father? Who is more important in your eyes?

To me, they both are important because they are one and the same being who has revealed himself to us through the Father and through Jesus: He's God.

and as if to answer my question:
"The Father seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Worshipping Jesus in conformity to His command is worshipping Him in spirit and in truth and glorifies God the Father"

Worship 'Him' who? The Father or Jesus? I suppose you mean Jesus. In this case, I take it you worship Jesus because it is the same as worshipping the Father. Well my friend, that is a very interesting point I hope you just realized: Jesus receives God's worship.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Do you consider Jesus and the Holy Spirit as Gods?

Not seperate Gods, but one and the same God.

The Bible says Jesus is a man not God. Show me where the Bible says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Gods. Otherwise, what you believe is heresy.

The truth is Jesus is a man (John 8:40)
- of course. So you could say that I believe this man is God.

Is that really what you believe my friend? Then you believe falsely since God is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9).

Whom the Father sent into the world
- this I also agree with. Going with my first statement about there being one God, then you could say I believe that God sent himself to earth.

If that's what you truly believe, I pity the Russians who listen to your preaching. Your belief that God sent himself to earth is false and can't stand to reason.

If God the Father sent himself to earth as God the son, then who was the Father that God the son was praying to while he was on earth and on the cross? On the other hand, if it was God the son who sent himself to earth and God the Father remained in heaven, then you are saying that there were two Gods in heaven before God the Son sent himself to earth, which contradicts all scriptures regarding God.

"and the Holy Spirit is the seven spirits of God the Father whom He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6)."

That verse doesn't even say that. It does not say the Holy Spirit is the seven spirits, and that these seven spirits are the Holy Spirit. Besides, this verse isn't even an actual eyewitness account Ed. Instead it's a vision, and as we know about dreams and visions, they are all symbols requiring interpretation. If they are actual factual events, then you don't honestly believe me to think that a dragon will literally cause a third of the stars to fall to the earth! Heck, even if one star hit the earth, the earth would never exist after it. It'd melt! I am still waiting for a biblical explanation for what exactly is the Holy Spirit if He's not God.

You talk about verses not saying this and that. Show me a verse which says that the Holy Spirit is God. And if the Holy Spirtit is not the seven Spirits of God, WHO is the Holy Spirit whom you say is God?

While it is true that God commanded that there shall be no other gods before him, God did not give the commandment to worship Him only."

Well, isn't what you worship a god? Isn't that the definition of worship? Some people worship money. Is money a god? No, but people worship it. Worship of anything other than God is blasphemy because to worship means someone :

1.Honors and loves someone or something as a deity.
2.Regards someone or something with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion.

In your earlier post, you said that "God commanded us to worship Him only." I say He did not. But instead of showing me the verse to support your allegation, you employ the standard squid tactic of Protestant pastors to divert to another topic to get out of a sticky situation. I am not even interested in your own definition of worship.

We can't serve both God and money. We can't have one God and then one lesser god. No! One is the master, and the only master we can have is God. Who we worship is the ONLY one we truly worship. All others are second best.

What you are saying is your own doctrine, NOT God's. Jesus is not another god. The rest of what you are saying is not Biblical.

But speaking of worshiping - as if to prove my point about all others being second best if they aren't worshipped first and foremost:

Do you worship Jesus Christ? Have you worshipped this man? Do you worship him? Or do you worship the Father? Who is more important in your eyes?

Read my post again my friend and go over the verses I quoted regarding my worship of Jesus. If you believe them, okay. If not, still okay with me.

To me, they both are important because they are one and the same being who has revealed himself to us through the Father and through Jesus: He's God.

Well, since you believe the commandments of men more than the Bible, what can I say. Jesus says he is a man (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). If you still insist that Jesus is God despite knowing the truth, that's your lookout. But I pity the Russians who listen to your false preaching.

[quoe]and as if to answer my question:
"The Father seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Worshipping Jesus in conformity to His command is worshipping Him in spirit and in truth and glorifies God the Father"

Worship 'Him' who? The Father or Jesus? I suppose you mean Jesus. In this case, I take it you worship Jesus because it is the same as worshipping the Father. Well my friend, that is a very interesting point I hope you just realized: Jesus receives God's worship.[/quote]

I do not worship Jesus because it is the same as worshipping the Father. That's what you say. I worship Jesus, the man, because it is God the Father's command. Worshipping Jesus glorifies God the Father. Obeying God the Father's command is worshipping God the Father in spirit nd in truth.

I hope this is clear enough for you.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"The Bible says Jesus is a man not God. Show me where the Bible says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Gods. Otherwise, what you believe is heresy."

Hmm...What do you think the Holy Spirit is then? A lesser God or something?

"Is that really what you believe my friend? Then you believe falsely since God is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9)."

Correct in a way..Christ was in the image of man..he was fully man and fully God. See your bible for details ;)

"If God the Father sent himself to earth as God the son, then who was the Father that God the son was praying to while he was on earth and on the cross? On the other hand, if it was God the son who sent himself to earth and God the Father remained in heaven, then you are saying that there were two Gods in heaven before God the Son sent himself to earth, which contradicts all scriptures regarding God."

Actaully if you know what the trinity is it explains this problem very very well :)

"In your earlier post, you said that "God commanded us to worship Him only." I say He did not. "

Okay..back to commandment #1 ed...

Jesus is God ed..he says it in abundance..how many times do I have to list those verses for you? Yes he says he is a man also..because he is ;) 100% man 100% God...Hence he was the PERFECT sacrifice because if he was just a man he wouldn't have been able to be it.

[Josephus]

The Bible says Jesus is a man not God. Show me where the Bible says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Gods. Otherwise, what you believe is heresy.


The verse?
Deut 6:4. Read it in Hebrew.

Shma Yisrael YHVH Elohenu Adonai Echad
Hear Isreal Father Spirit Lord one

There's more:
Prov 30:4
" Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!"


Zech 12:10
" They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." Fulfilled in John 19:37.

Gen 1:1 Read it in the Hebrew.
Bere**** Elohiem...
Beginning Spirit... Eloheim is the plural form of Eloi.

Gen 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,[2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Notice it was God doing the creating, nothing else was creating. The only "us" that can create man is "God."

Need more? There are others, but I hope you can see for yourself a starter. Don't let what somebody else has told you to be that which you cling to and thus hold God in a box. Step out of your comfort zone for a while, and I'm sure God won't mind you seeking after the answers yourself and on your own. Heck, don't even take my word for it. I offer you freedom others don't - the freedom to find out the truth for yourself. If it is truth, then the truth will be evident to all who seek it - that is a promise from God: those who seek Him, find Him.



Your belief that God sent himself to earth is false and can't stand to reason.

Which is probably why the Jews in Jesus' day wanted to stone him for this blasphemy. John 10:33:
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

We know the antichrist is to be a false Jesus, claiming everything that Jesus claimed, doing what he did, and even taking the place of Jesus as the object of people's worship.

2 Thess 2:4
"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Obviously the antichrist sees a point in claiming that which Christ did for himself, otherwise there wouldn't be a need. If Satan is this clever, don't you think he would know if Jesus was God or not?



Show me a verse which says that the Holy Spirit is God

There is.
1 Cor 2:11
"who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

What does "in the same way" mean? Easy. The same way as a man spirit knows a man's thoughts, so does God's spirit know God's thoughts. It denotes simple logic which points to an obvious question:

Is your spirit you? If so, then God's spirit is Him.



In your earlier post, you said that "God commanded us to worship Him only." I say He did not. But instead of showing me the verse to support your allegation, you employ the standard squid tactic of Protestant pastors to divert to another topic to get out of a sticky situation. I am not even interested in your own definition of worship.

So you're saying it's alright for me to worship my car? How about a tree? Can I worship my dog? Can I worship a frog? Can I worship a leather book? You might say the only thing we can worship is that which God tells us we can worship. It's strange to me that there are only two things we are commanded to worship (all else is optional?) God, and Jesus.

For me who believes Jesus is God, this command to worship Jesus poses no problem. But if I believed Jesus was a mere man, then I would have a problem with that as that could mean any man could have done what Jesus did and thus be worthy of worship. It means that Jesus got into heaven on his own merit and not by the grace of God. It means that he wasn't anybody special...just someone who just did something special. Heck at this point it becomes even easy to dismiss the entire notion that Jesus was ever born of a virgin, and thus no longer an answer to prophecy... in fact that would mean that Jesus is a false messiah!





"We can't serve both God and money. We can't have one God and then one lesser god. No! One is the master, and the only master we can have is God. Who we worship is the ONLY one we truly worship. All others are second best."

What you are saying is your own doctrine, NOT God's. Jesus is not another god. The rest of what you are saying is not Biblical.


Not biblical? Hmmm... two seperate people, both you worship and both you claim as your master: "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." - wisdom of this very Jesus you worship. Luke 16:13

I agree we are to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, but where is it are we commanded to worship Jesus? Is it after his resurrection? After his baptism by the Holy Spirit? When? At his birth he was worshiped, and he had not yet done anything, and never was a command given to worship Jesus during that time - but it was done. This makes for an interesting point especially when it was Jesus who said "worship the Lord your God only." in Luke 4:8. Obviously if he is not God, then he would tell people to stop worshipping him. But if he is God, then it makes sense why he accepts people's worship throughout the Gospels.



Now onto another point:

God is love right? Well, a good way Arabs come to believe in God is a simple understanding that if God is love, then before anything was made or created, that love had to have a purpose for existing, for love can ONLY exist when there is something to be loved and loved by. - an existence of relationship is absolutly necessary. Now if God IS love, then his very nature is "relationship." Now the question is, what is that relationship that defines God's nature? The bible shows God demonstrating himself through three distinctable "who"s: The Father. The Spirit of God. Jesus Son of God and Son of Man.

Have a great evening, Ed!
<><
Ryan


(for another topic: in regards to the The Way name for the early group of believers: Acts 24:14 answers that plainly.)

[edpobre]

Josephus,

The Bible says Jesus is a man not God. Show me where the Bible says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Gods. Otherwise, what you believe is heresy.

The verse?
Deut 6:4. Read it in Hebrew.

Shma Yisrael YHVH Elohenu Adonai Echad
Hear Isreal Father Spirit Lord one

The verse doesn't say they are one God. It's the same as when Jesus says "I and the Father are one." It does not mean they are one God.

On the other hand, Jesus clearly (without any need for interpretation or assumption) identifies the Father as the only true God (John 17:3).

There's more:
Prov 30:4
" Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!"

Again, this verse does not make John 17:3 false. Jesus clearly identifies the Father as the only true God. You have to convince me that Jesus did not understand what he was saying.

Zech 12:10
" They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." Fulfilled in John 19:37.

Your version of this verse is a mistranslation. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible says it differently: "...when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." Hence, this is not proof that Jesus is God.

Gen 1:1 Read it in the Hebrew.
Bere**** Elohiem...
Beginning Spirit... Eloheim is the plural form of Eloi.

Are you saying that in the beginning there were many Gods?

Gen 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,[2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Notice it was God doing the creating, nothing else was creating. The only "us" that can create man is "God."

Josephus, note that God is a "he" and "he" alone created man in "his" own image (Gen. 1:27). The verse doesn't say "they" to be consistent with "us." Note also that in verses 29 and 30, the singular pronoun "I" is used instead of "we."

Who is this "he" God who created alone and used the singular pronoun "I?" Isaiah 64:8 says the creator is the Father. Malachi 2:10 says the creator is the Father. 1 Cor 8:6 says the creator is the Father.

Need more? There are others, but I hope you can see for yourself a starter. Don't let what somebody else has told you to be that which you cling to and thus hold God in a box. Step out of your comfort zone for a while, and I'm sure God won't mind you seeking after the answers yourself and on your own. Heck, don't even take my word for it. I offer you freedom others don't - the freedom to find out the truth for yourself. If it is truth, then the truth will be evident to all who seek it - that is a promise from God: those who seek Him, find Him.

What you are offering Josephus are falsehood that stem out of your fanatic belief on the Trinity.

Your belief that God sent himself to earth is false and can't stand to reason.

Which is probably why the Jews in Jesus' day wanted to stone him for this blasphemy. John 10:33:

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

You think like the Pharisees Josephus and you know that the Pharisees will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They were wrong in accusing Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus did not commit the crime of blasphemy. He never claimed he was equal with God or he was God himself. All he said was he is the son of God (John 10:36) and that's not blasphemy (claiming equality with God).

We know the antichrist is to be a false Jesus, claiming everything that Jesus claimed, doing what he did, and even taking the place of Jesus as the object of people's worship.

2 Thess 2:4
"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Obviously the antichrist sees a point in claiming that which Christ did for himself, otherwise there wouldn't be a need. If Satan is this clever, don't you think he would know if Jesus was God or not?

What you are describing is the man of sin not the antiChrist. 1 John 4:3 is the Biblical description of the antiChrist. The antiChrist is one who does not confess that Jesus is a human being or man. The antiChrist is one who opposses what Jesus teaches. Jesus teaches that he is a man and the Father is the only true God. The antiChrist teaches that Jesus is God.

Show me a verse which says that the Holy Spirit is God

There is.
1 Cor 2:11
"who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

What does "in the same way" mean? Easy. The same way as a man spirit knows a man's thoughts, so does God's spirit know God's thoughts. It denotes simple logic which points to an obvious question:

Is your spirit you? If so, then God's spirit is Him.

The verse does not say the Holy Spirit is God. Who is this God who has the Spirit? The Old Testament testifies that God is the Father. Thus, the Holy Spirit of the Father is NOT separate and distinct from the Father much as your spirit is not separate from you. YOU refers to your body and spirit and a body without spirit is dead. Thus, God the Father refers to his Holy Spirit because God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

In your earlier post, you said that "God commanded us to worship Him only." I say He did not. But instead of showing me the verse to support your allegation, you employ the standard squid tactic of Protestant pastors to divert to another topic to get out of a sticky situation. I am not even interested in your own definition of worship.

So you're saying it's alright for me to worship my car? How about a tree? Can I worship my dog? Can I worship a frog? Can I worship a leather book? You might say the only thing we can worship is that which God tells us we can worship. It's strange to me that there are only two things we are commanded to worship (all else is optional?) God, and Jesus.

Why would you worship your car, or your dog, or a frog or a tree? Do you worship these things because you believe they are gods? Then you would be worshipping other gods and that's what God doesn't like.

If I worship Jesus because I believe him to be God, then that would be a violation of God's command not to serve other Gods. But I worship Jesus in obedience to God's command to worship him. Hence, I do not violate any of the laws of God.

For me who believes Jesus is God, this command to worship Jesus poses no problem. But if I believed Jesus was a mere man, then I would have a problem with that as that could mean any man could have done what Jesus did and thus be worthy of worship. It means that Jesus got into heaven on his own merit and not by the grace of God. It means that he wasn't anybody special...just someone who just did something special. Heck at this point it becomes even easy to dismiss the entire notion that Jesus was ever born of a virgin, and thus no longer an answer to prophecy... in fact that would mean that Jesus is a false messiah!

If you believe the Bible Josephus, the reason God commands every knee to bow at Jesus' name is because Jesus is a special MAN. He was exalted by God and was given a name which was above any other name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (Phil. 2:9-11).

Not biblical? Hmmm... two seperate people, both you worship and both you claim as your master: "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." - wisdom of this very Jesus you worship. Luke 16:13

Christians have only one master or Lord. That Lord is Jesus Christ (Matt. 23:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

I agree we are to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, but where is it are we commanded to worship Jesus? Is it after his resurrection? After his baptism by the Holy Spirit? When? At his birth he was worshiped, and he had not yet done anything, and never was a command given to worship Jesus during that time - but it was done. This makes for an interesting point especially when it was Jesus who said "worship the Lord your God only." in Luke 4:8. Obviously if he is not God, then he would tell people to stop worshipping him. But if he is God, then it makes sense why he accepts people's worship...

Luke 4:8 doesn't say "worship the Lord your God "only". You are twisting the verse. God's command to worship Jesus is recorded in Heb. 1:6 and Phil. 2:9-11.

Now onto another point:

God is love right? Well, a good way Arabs come to believe in God is a simple understanding that if God is love, then before anything was made or created, that love had to have a purpose for existing, for love can ONLY exist when there is something to be loved and loved by. - an existence of relationship is absolutly necessary. Now if God IS love, then his very nature is "relationship." Now the question is, what is that relationship that defines God's nature? The bible shows God demonstrating himself through three distinctable "who"s: The Father. The Spirit of God. Jesus Son of God and Son of Man.

Again, this is a false assumption to defend a false doctrine. Who is this God who demonstrates himself in three distinctable "who's": the Father, the Spirit of God, Jesus Son of God and Son of Man?

Ed

[Josephus]

The verse doesn't say they are one God. It's the same as when Jesus says "I and the Father are one." It does not mean they are one God.

One in what? One in unity? MY GOODNESS! You believe what I believe: in the triUNITY of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus can only be "one" with the Father as Jesus is a part of what the Father is. How is this so? Simple: How can one be in unity with God without being God themselves? Jesus does everything God does. How can Jesus do what God does unless Jesus is God? This means Jesus can be omnipotent, omnicient, - evething that God does! Don't you see the connection yet?



Your version of this verse is a mistranslation. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible says it differently:

My version IS the version the RSV is translated from!


[/quote]Are you saying that in the beginning there were many Gods? [/quote]

I'm attempting to prove the plurality of God.

Josephus, note that God is a "he" and "he" alone created man in "his" own image (Gen. 1:27). The verse doesn't say "they" to be consistnt with "us." Note also that in verses 29 and 30, the singular pronoun "I" is used instead of "we."

Yes, isn't that strange? God truly is one God! THe plural form of God is always "He, One" never "they" because there AREN'T three gods. Just one. So therefore, whatever it is that makes the writer write "us" as the ONE creating, that is what I believe! There is an "us" in the "one" and only God!

What you are offering Josephus are falsehood that stem out of your fanatic belief on the Trinity.

That is unsubstantiated. From my shoes, it looks like you are picking and choosing scripture to FIT a doctrine. I don't start with a doctrine. I am simply starting by taking the whole thing into context from the beginning to the end. This is how God reveals himself in scripture: through a plurality of theophanies that somehow can be categorized into tthree types: Spirit, Man, Creator.



You think like the Pharisees Josephus and you know that the Pharisees will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They were wrong in accusing Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus did not commit the crime of blasphemy. He never claimed he was equal with God or he was God himself. All he said was he is the son of God (John 10:36) and that's not blasphemy (claiming equality with God).

Obviously if the Pharisees believed this is what Jesus was saying, then I will take their word (and the word of the apostles writing the account) as opposed to yours because unlike them, you can not question Jesus like they could. They obviously COULD question Jesus, and they did, and they came to their conclusions that Jesus was claiming to be God. Since they did not believe this, they condemned him for the crime of blasphemy - even though he was telling the truth and was innocent - and the apostles wrote it as such. Jesus never claimed that he was NOT God to anyone.


The antiChrist teaches that Jesus is God.[/quotes] That's the most incredible sentence I have ever read. Where does it say that the antichrist (who claims to be Jesus) claims that Jesus is God? If the antichrist where to claim that Jesus is God, then he'd be saying that he's not Jesus (which would contradict himself and his purpose to be the very antichrist)!


the Holy Spirit of the Father is NOT separate and distinct from the Father much as your spirit is not separate f

My spirit is not my carnal mind. My spirit is neither my flesh. It is definatly distinct from my other parts of me. Except, where my spirit is finite, God is inifinite, where my mind is finite, the Creator Father is infinite.


If I worship Jesus because I believe him to be God, then that would be a violation of God's command not to serve other Gods. But I worship Jesus in obedience to God's command to worship him. Hence, I do not violate any of the laws of God.


What do you think it means when the Father asks us to worship Jesus? What does worship mean in your language so I can see where you are comming from?


If you believe the Bible Josephus, the reason God commands every knee to bow at Jesus' name is because Jesus is a special MAN.

Oh, so Jesus is a SPECIAL man - but just a man. So that any man like you or me could have been Jesus?


Christians have only one master or Lord. That Lord is Jesus Christ (Matt. 23:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

God is my master and Lord.
Jesus is my master and Lord.
I have only one Lord who is my master.

All three of these statements are true, and all three are commanded of God.


Luke 4:8 doesn't say "worship the Lord your God "only". You are twisting the verse.

WHAT? I bet my own life it does say that- and it says it quite plainly! Anything ELSE is a twisting of the scripture. Period. Look up this very in the very Greek and you will see the word "only." It can only mean one thing: worship and serve the Lord your God only! Aren't you seeing a connection yet? I pray that you do.


Who is this God who demonstrates himself in three distinctable "who's": the Father, the Spirit of God, Jesus Son of God and Son of Man?

Jesus's baptism in Matthew 3.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: quote]WHAT? I bet my own life it does say that- and it says it quite plainly! Anything ELSE is a twisting of the scripture. Period. Look up this very in the very Greek and you will see the word "only." It can only mean one thing: worship and serve the Lord your God only! Aren't you seeing a connection yet? I pray that you do. [/quote]

So you know what the word "only" means after all. Why don't you read John 17:3 again and see if you recognize the word "only". It can only mean one thing: the true God is the Father only!

The connection you see is but a figment of your imagination.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

let me say here again ed that the word "father" is never mentioned in that verse.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: let me say here again ed that the word "father" is never mentioned in that verse.

This only shows how "low" one can stoop to the point of making one's self look like a moron to defend an undefensible false doctrine. Back up a bit to verse 1 to find out whom Jesus was talking to in this verse.

The word 'father' doesn't hae to be mentioned for us to know that Jesus ws talking to the Father.

Ed

[Josephus]

"So you know what the word "only" means after all. Why don't you read John 17:3 again and see if you recognize the word "only". It can only mean one thing: the true God is the Father only"

But Luke 4:8 Jesus says only you can worship ONLY God - yet Jesus recieved worship. Reconcile that! You have to! Obviously if Luke 4:8 is true, and John 17:3 is true, then the Father must be the only God, and Jesus must be that only God.


ADMIN NOTE: Ed, do not call people names. If you do, you will be suspended from the King's Tavern. This is your only warning. Thank you.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

"So you know what the word "only" means after all. Why don't you read John 17:3 again and see if you recognize the word "only". It can only mean one thing: the true God is the Father only"

But Luke 4:8 Jesus says only you can worship ONLY God - yet Jesus recieved worship. Reconcile that! You have to! Obviously if Luke 4:8 is true, and John 17:3 is true, then the Father must be the only God, and Jesus must be that only God.

First of all, if you read Luke 4:8 again, you will find out that Jesus was quoting what was written in Deuteronomy 6:13 and it does not say that we worship the Lord God only.

Second, your assumption that if Luke 4:8 and John 17:3 are both true, then the Father must be the only God, and Jesus must be that only God" is false because Jesus will always be the SON who is always separate and distinct from the Father.

Ed

[Josephus]

ed, tell me, is your thumb seperate and distinct from your head? Can someone reasonably tell the difference between the two? Of course you can, because a thumb and a head are two different things - but they belong to the same body.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: ed, tell me, is your thumb seperate and distinct from your head? Can someone reasonably tell the difference between the two? Of course you can, because a thumb and a head are two different things - but they belong to the same body.

Do you call your thumb head or vice versa just because they both belong to one body? This is what you are trying to tell me, that Jesus can be God because he and God belong to the same body. Can't you see that the farther you are from the Bible, the more absurd you become?

The Father identified Jesus as His Son and we must listen to him (Matt. 17:5). Jesus identified his Father as the only true God (John 17:3) thereby effectively excluding himself as God. Jesus identified himself as a man (John 8:40).

Why is it too hard for you and everyone else to believe what Jesus said? Is this the way you acknowledge Jesus as your personal Lord? Is this what Lordship mens to you?

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"The word 'father' doesn't hae to be mentioned for us to know that Jesus ws talking to the Father."

I know that ed, its call context..but you seem to always call me on that when I put it into it so I was showing you how to use it ;) Help any? Why is it you add context here and not in other verses?

"Do you call your thumb head or vice versa just because they both belong to one body? "

No..but you DO SAY IT IS ONE BODY JUST AS IT IS ONE GOD WITH THREE PARTS.

"Why is it too hard for you and everyone else to believe what Jesus said? "

Ask yourself that question ed. Why do you find it so hard to believe when Christ not only says BUT SHOWS he is God?

[MikeMcK]

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