Calvin & Hobbes

[FreezBee]

No, I'm not referring to the cartoon series, but just curious about the Lutheran attitude towards Thomas Hobbes :)

While Jean Calvin was a younger temporary of Martin Luther and certainly inspired by Luther, Thomas Hobbes is around a century later, 1588-1679. His most important book is "Leviathan" from 1651 - 3 years after the 30 years war!

On the frontispiece of "Leviathan" we see the Sovereign with the scourge in his left hand and the sword in his right hand - indicating the dual powers of the Sovereign.

Does anybody here know anything about Lutheran reactions to Thomas Hobbes?


Thanks in advance :)

- FreezBee

[AngelusSax]

I'm replying just so I can make sure this thread is subscribed. I too am interested in answers to this question.

[FreezBee]

I'm replying just so I can make sure this thread is subscribed. I too am interested in answers to this question.

Ok, interest is better than nothing :)


- FreezBee

[KEPLER]

Asking for a Lutheran reaction is tantamount to asking for a German reaction.

Historically, Hobbes made waves mostly in Britain, and the Dutch Republic. A little bit in France, but the French already had some centralized monarchical thinking which they used.

Lutheranism is actually much more in line with Marsilius of Padua (Defensor pacis (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0231123558/qid=1137189231/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3068363-3786333?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)), which was a liberalized version of Augsutine's Two Kingdom theory.

FWIW, when the German monarch started behaving like Leviathan and forcing the Reformed and Lutheran Churches into one communion, the orthodox Lutherans (a goodly chuck of them, anyways) left Deutschland and ended up in St. Louis.

Leviathan negates Two Kingdoms, so Lutherans don't like it.

Kepler

[stumpjumper]

I like Calvin and Hobbes.

Comics are good :D

[FreezBee]

Asking for a Lutheran reaction is tantamount to asking for a German reaction.

Obviously at the time it would mostly be of relevance in Germany - the Danish and the Swedish kings were pretty much absolute sovereigns at the time, but probably more based on a French model than anything Hobbesian.

Historically, Hobbes made waves mostly in Britain, and the Dutch Republic. A little bit in France, but the French already had some centralized monarchical thinking which they used.

Yes, the French had their own ideas. It's worth noting that for Hobbes, the Sovereign was the embodyment of a contract between free people, so therefore he would have been of more interest among British and Dutch more-or-less democrats.

Lutheranism is actually much more in line with Marsilius of Padua (Defensor pacis (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0231123558/qid=1137189231/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3068363-3786333?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)), which was a liberalized version of Augsutine's Two Kingdom theory.

FWIW, when the German monarch started behaving like Leviathan and forcing the Reformed and Lutheran Churches into one communion, the orthodox Lutherans (a goodly chuck of them, anyways) left Deutschland and ended up in St. Louis.

Ok, thanks for this information :thumbsup: Der Kaiser of course had a more difficult starting position than the French king and was more in need of trying to forge a nation that really only existed on paper.

Leviathan negates Two Kingdoms, so Lutherans don't like it.

True, the two kingdoms are united in "Leviathan", so of course Lutherans should dislike it :)

Mixing religion and politics should be done with utmost care - extremely utmost care.


- FreezBee

[KEPLER]

Mixing religion and politics should be done with utmost care - extremely utmost care.


- FreezBee

This begs the question, no? Should it be done, at all??? IMHO, NO.

Kepler

[FreezBee]

This begs the question, no? Should it be done, at all??? IMHO, NO.

:) While I agree with you here, I would like to add, that I think it still ok for a Christian to take a stance in a political debate - but not to claim to have any authority in that debate based on religion.

- FreezBee