What it Means to Become a Member of the Church of Christ

[edpobre]

Friends,

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means doing the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). That means you can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means obeying Christ's teaching to "enter the fold through him" (John 10:9,7). That means you will be saved.

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means Christ dying for you (his body) as propitiation for your sins and becoming God's righteousness in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) because he being the head can die for the sins of his body in accordance with God's righteousness regarding sin (Deut. 24:16).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and has received adoption as son (Gal. 4:4-5) and as son, an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means that God has delivered you from the power of darkness and has translated you to the kingdom of His son in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ in whom you have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph. 1:7).

Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ and you will meet Jesus in the air when he comes again on judgment day (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Is there any reason why one would not desire to become a member of the true Church of Christ?

Ed

[lucypevensie]

Do you believe one must be a member of the Church of Christ in order to be a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ? What do these verses you point out have to say about being a member of the Church of Christ?

[ZoneChaos]

-or-

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Do you have to me a Child of God to be a member of the Church of Christ, or do you have to be a member of the Church of Christ to be a Child fo God?

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Do you have to me a Child of God to be a member of the Church of Christ, or do you have to be a member of the Church of Christ to be a Child fo God?

I'm glad you asked Zone. The Bible says that God sent His son to redeem those under the law, that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). Thus, before you can become a child of God, you have to be redeemed by the blood of Christ.

The Bible says that those who have been justified by the blood of Christ have been reconciled to God through the death of Christ (Rom. 5:10-11). Eph. 2:16 says that they were reconciled to God in one body through the cross. That one body is the church and the head is Christ (Col. 1:1:cool: . The church was purchased (redeemed) by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:2:cool: .

Gal. 4:4-5 states that before one can become an adopted child of God, one must first of all be redeemed by the blood of Christ. And the only way to be redeemed is to be INSIDE the church that Christ purchased with his own bkood.

Ed

[ZoneChaos]

So, you say that you must become a member of the Church before you can be saved?

[edpobre]

Lucypevensie,

You wrote: Do you believe one must be a member of the Church of Christ in order to be a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ? What do these verses you point out have to say about being a member of the Church of Christ?

Jesus says: " My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me" (John 10:27).

In John 10:7,9 Jesus says: "...Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved..."

Therefore, a fully devoted follower of Christ must become a member of the Church of Christ in response to his invitation for his sheep to enter the sheepfold by him. The fold or the flock is the church of Christ that he purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 L).

These verses I pointed out prove the importance of being a member of the Church of Christ for salvation. The church of Christ was redeemed (purchased) by the blood of Christ.

In order for you to be redeemed and receive adoption as son or child of God, you must become a member of the church of Christ.

In order for you to be reconciled to God, you must be reconciled to God INSIDE one body through the cross. That one body is the church of which Christ is the head (Col. 1:1:cool: .

Ed

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: So, you say that you must become a member of the Church before you can be saved?

That's not what I say my friend. That's what the Bible says. "For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is the head of the church; and he is the SAVIOR of the BODY." (Eph. 5:23) "And he is the HEAD of the BODY, the church." (Col. 1:1:cool:

Reason dictates my friend that one must be a member of the BODY or CHURCH that Christ will save in order for one to be saved. The name of that church is Church of Christ (Rom. 16:16) wherein, according to apostle Paul, there is only one God, the Father.... and only one Lord, Jesus Christ..." (1 Cor. 8:6).

Ed

[Josephus]

I hate membership. It's too...regulated.

I am instead a free-agent disciple of Jesus, Ed.

God bless

[lucypevensie]

Ed, what would you say to someone who lives in Hicksville, or on an uncharted island who has a Bible and wants to become a fully devoted follower of Christ?. What about people in prisons? What about people on death row? What about people who make a last minute descision to follow Christ, then they die? What about kids who have no choice in where their parents take them to church? Are these people doomed to separation with God because they do not have access to a C of C?

[Josephus]

I used to be C of C. Well, more like an A+ in C of C. But I did make the grade. It was when I flunked Basic Relationships 101 that I realized that God had more for me than just my little circle. There's a whole world of mass millions of people who don't even have a clue as to the freedom Jesus offers those who recieve Him, and the world system many times hinders them from knowing and recieving Him.

[Michael]

>>I am instead a free-agent disciple of Jesus, Ed.

I really like that quote. :)

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: I hate membership. It's too...regulated.

I am instead a free-agent disciple of Jesus, Ed.

A disciple of Jesus is one who believes in him and abides in his words (John 8:31). And one who confesses Jesus as his Lord must do as he says (Luke 6:46).

Jesus says narrow is the gate and difficult is the way to life and few find it. That's your choice and I respect it.

Ed

[Josephus]

Just be sure not to judge it.

[edpobre]

lucypevensie,

You wrote: Ed, what would you say to someone who lives in Hicksville, or on an uncharted island who has a Bible and wants to become a fully devoted follower of Christ?. What about people in prisons? What about people on death row? What about people who make a last minute descision to follow Christ, then they die? What about kids who have no choice in where their parents take them to church? Are these people doomed to separation with God because they do not have access to a C of C?

If people who profess belief in the Bible and claim to be followers of Christ cannot accept the necessity or relevance of membership in the church of Christ, how much more these people you mentioned?

Believe me lucy but we are trying our best to reach as many people as we can. We invite people to our Bible Expositions but the road has not been easy.

What I can say is, we are not in a position to disregard God's word for these people. We rely on wht the Bible say. We do not look for exceptions to God's plan of salvation.

Ed

[Josephus]

Do you even know the history of the Church of Christ? At one time it did not exist at all.


I want to tell you a story, and then I would love to hear your response if you have one.

As a missionary just last month to several countries, four months ago in February of this year, I came across this man in my travel. Security reasons prevent me from disclosing anything that might reveal his identity, but I hope you seriously read this testimony he shared with me...a testimony that I am beginning to find is not as uncommon or unusual as I once thought it was:

I met him while he was visiting one of the countries I was in. He was a close friend of one of the people I was staying with, and this is what was said:

This man grew up in an Islamic country. This man was a devout Muslim who sought after Allah with all of his heart all of his life. He is a high-ranking government official whose only knowledge of Isa (the arabic name for Jesus) was of the stories of this "prophet" in the Koran. One night he had a dream. In this dream he tells me that a figure dressed in all white and very bright said that he was Isa, and that my friend needed to believe who he was and what he did: that he came to earth, died, and rose again to defeat death so that all men might be free to live forever with God. Isa revealed himself to my friend, and that day he considered himself a believer in Isa. He prayed secretly for his family. Now his wife and children are believers. He would never call himself a Christian. His understanding of a Christian is of a particular and destructive western mindset that sadly the rest of the world believes in too. Though he is a believer, he would deny saying he is a Christian because according to him, Christians are hypocrites. It was by a sheer miracle that God provided him a bible for him to study - an arabic translation. He is now one of many hundreds that we (my friends and I) know of who have recieved the Savior as Lord of their lives by revelation through an actual dream or vision. They would not claim to be "Christians" (and I doubt they've ever heard of a sect called 'the Church of Christ' of which 'membership' is impossible) - but I can tell you this: on Judgement Day will these true saints be revealed.

I marvel at what God is doing in the world today. Those without witness in their lives are getting it when they seek God with all of their hearts! They are finding the truth for themselves in the most interesting of ways, but I can absolutly guarantee that this supernatural work of God is not spreading some concept of 'membership' in some organization thousands of miles away. God is bigger than man's designs. I encourage you in love to step out of the box.

<><

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: They are finding the truth for themselves in the most interesting of ways, but I can absolutly guarantee that this supernatural work of God is not spreading some concept of 'membership' in some organization thousands of miles away. God is bigger than man's designs. I encourage you in love to step out of the box.

You say they are finding the truth... Do you say it is the truth because they agree with your perception of truth? Jesus says the word of God is the truth (John 17:17). And if someone preaches a different message than God's, then he is NOT sent by God, because he has no light and truth in him (Isaiah 8:20 The Living Bible).

There are only two classes of people in the world as far as salvation is concerned. One class are children of God and the other are children of the devil. Only children of God are heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ to God's promise of salvation and eternal life. That's the truth. It's what God says.

To become a child of God, one must acquire the right to become one by receiving Jesus. Again this is the truth. It's what God says.

Then to receive adoption as child of God, one needs to be redeemed by Jesus. Again this is the truth. It's what God says.

One can be redeemed only by the blood of Jesus and redemption cn be found only in the church that he purchased with his own blood, the church that he gave his life for, the church that he will save. The name of that church is Church of Christ.

These are the truths Josephus because these are words of God - not mine.

Your friend is a pity because he can't do anything to save himself. He must submit to the authority of Christ because Christ has authority over his body, the church.

Ed

[Josephus]

"To become a child of God, one must acquire the right to become one by receiving Jesus. Again this is the truth. It's what God says."

You can't acquire what is already freeley given to everyone else. To get it means to simply recieve and accept it.


Then to receive adoption as child of God, one needs to be redeemed by Jesus. Again this is the truth. It's what God says.


Redemption has already come to the whole world. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The work is already finished, completed. The only classes of people as far as salvation is concerned are those who have recieved and accepted what Jesus already did for them, and those that have not recieved his atoning work for their lives.


" Redemption cn be found only in the church that he purchased with his own blood,"

Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ.

"the church that he gave his life for, the church that he will save. The name of that church is Church of Christ."

Amen. So if I go out, build a building and put a sign on it that says "Church of Christ" then it fits the bill? Did God really give his life for a building? If what will REALLY save me is me being in something called the Church of Christ, then I'll just forego all the pleasantries of even having a christian building in Nepal, and instead hang a sign around my neck that says "Church of Christ." Since Jesus died for the Church of Christ and not me, then I'll just go to the registration buearu and change my real name to Church Of Christ. Strangers will call me Mr. Christ and my mom will call me Church. I really want to be sure of my salvation...I mean, really REALLY sure. :)

<><
sincerely,

Church of Christ
(formerly known as Josephus)


P.S. I hope my sarcasm is taken lightly as I hope to simply state a point you may have heard but never quite heard it presented this way.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Ed: "To become a child of God, one must acquire the right to become one by receiving Jesus. Again this is the truth. It's what God says."

You: You can't acquire what is already freeley given to everyone else. To get it means to simply recieve and accept it.

Is that what you understand John 1:12 is saying? Read again my friend: "But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name." Your understanding of the verse is miles apart from its intended meaning.

Ed: Then to receive adoption as child of God, one needs to be redeemed by Jesus. Again this is the truth. It's what God says.

You: Redemption has already come to the whole world. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The work is already finished, completed.

Sure, there is no question that redemption has come into the world. There is also no question that Christ died for sinners. The work of Christ is already finished and completed. But the Bible says that it is only the church of Christ that was redeemed by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa). And only members of the church of Christ are covered by the redemptive power of Christ's blood. Those who are not members of the church of Christ remain sinners and are not children of God.

You wrote: The only classes of people as far as salvation is concerned are those who have recieved and accepted what Jesus already did for them, and those that have not recieved his atoning work for their lives.

There is no Biblical basis for this statement.

Ed: " Redemption can be found only in the church that he purchased with his own blood,"

You: Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ.

You are right my friend. Redemption is found only IN Jesus Christ - that is, INSIDE his body, the church of Christ.

Ed: "the church that he gave his life for, the church that he will save. The name of that church is Church of Christ."

You: Amen. So if I go out, build a building and put a sign on it that says "Church of Christ" then it fits the bill? Did God really give his life for a building? If what will REALLY save me is me being in something called the Church of Christ, then I'll just forego all the pleasantries of even having a christian building in Nepal, and instead hang a sign around my neck that says "Church of Christ."

Your understanding of church is very Catholic. Church is not a building as most people have been made to believe. The Bible calls it a flock or fold or sheep pen. It is a group of people who have submitted themselves to the authority of Christ as its head. This group of people is also called the body of Christ where Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) are gathered together and reconciled to God through the cross (Eph. 2:16).

People who listen to the true gospel preached by true messengers sent by God, believe what they hear, turn away from their false beliefs and come out of their former religion or churches to be baptized by these true preachers sent by God, are added to this group our flock. This group of people or one body or one church is what Christ gave his life for (Eph. 5:26), it is what Christ purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:2:cool: and it is what Christ will save (Eph. 5:23).

You wrote: Since Jesus died for the Church of Christ and not me, then I'll just go to the registration buearu and change my real name to Church Of Christ. Strangers will call me Mr. Christ and my mom will call me Church. I really want to be sure of my salvation...I mean, really REALLY sure.

I'll take this sarcasm lightly and not answer it because it is foolishness for those who will not be saved.

Ed

[carma]

What I can say is, we are not in a position to disregard God's word for these people. We rely on wht the Bible say. We do not look for exceptions to God's plan of salvation.

Oh really?

Please tell us where God's plan of salvation says one word about a physical building or membership roster, a specific one at that.

If you want to try the "only one true church" then you are a member of the wrong church. If there were truly one true church, then I would have to say that church is the one that Saul persecuted, the group that Stephen was a part of. That group had a name, you can find it in Acts.....it was called The Way. Now if there were only one true fellowship, that's the one I would put my money on.

[edpobre]

Carma,

You wrote: Please tell us where God's plan of salvation says one word about a physical building or membership roster, a specific one at that.

Have you read my posts Carma? Did I mention that a physical building is necessary to salvation?

You wrote: If you want to try the "only one tre church[/b] then you are a member of the wrong church. If there were truly one true church, then I would have to say that church is the one that Saul persecuted, the group that Stephen was a part of. That group had a name, you can find it in Acts.....it was called The Way. Now if there were only one true fellowship, that's the one I would put my money on.

Acts 19:23 does not say that the group was called "the Way." Let's see what the verse says: "At about that time, there was great commotion about the Way."

What was the Way that caused great commotion?

Acts 16:17 explains: "The girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the WAY to salvation."

Acts 18:26 further clarifies: "So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to hin the WAY of God more accurately."

These verses prove that the WAY pertains to God's WAY or plan of salvation. And definitely, the WAY includes membership in the one true Church which apostle Paul called Church of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa; Rom. 16:16).

Ed

[Josephus]

"But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

Ed, you're great at highlighting words. My turn. Look that the "even" indicates an "adding" to those who are not "even."

In one breath you say Jesus died for all sinners, and in the next, you say Jesus died only for the church. Well, the church didn't even exist when Jesus died. Jever never said he died for the church. He said he came to save that which was lost already. There was no such thing as the "Church of Christ." Heck, even the first person to enter Heaven as a result of his faith in Christ was a thief on a cross, and I doubt he probably never went once to a synagogue in his life.

Acts 20:28 was written by Paul or Luke, told by Paul or Luke. That verse isn't even Jesus' words. Jesus never said he died for the church alone. In fact it this verse is Paul or Luke addressing leadership of a particular flock (group) of believers. If the whole of believers called themselves the Church of God, then it doesn't make sense why Paul or Luke would address shepherds and not apostles since the real definition for someone in a shepherding office of groups of entire churches are in fact called apostles and not shepherds! But we know this letter isn't addressed to the Apostles because the writer is writing for those who haven't seen what the apostles have seen, otherwise he wouldn't need to write this letter! So instead this verse proves that the letter is written to shepherds of a PARTICULAR flock of certain believers - a flock that Jesus had too died for as the verse continues on to say that his reasons for dying included them.


"Those who are not members of the church of Christ
remain sinners and are not children of God."

I wish to see an exact scripture that says that only members of the Church of Christ are saved.



The only classes of people as far as salvation is concerned are those who have recieved and accepted what Jesus already did for them, and those that have not recieved his atoning work for their lives.

"There is no Biblical basis for this statement."

There is: John 3:18. The "name" in Jewish idiomology means "to encompass all that a person is, their identity, their very being, and what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in the future." Look it up sometime.

Put that in the verse, and you get nearly exactly what I wrote above. :)



"You are right my friend. Redemption is found only IN Jesus Christ - that is, INSIDE his body, the church of Christ."

No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.



"Acts 19:23 does not say that the group was called "the Way." Let's see what the verse says: "At about that time, there was great commotion about the Way." "

Hey Ed, this was NOT a dispute about HOW to be saved, but rather a dispute about these group of believers vs. society. Society was questioning them - not other members in the church. Obviously since it is a dispute about the group, the Way is the name associated with them (early archeological documents prove that there was no official name for the Christians other than "The Way" until many years after Christ's death). In fact this is so much the case that there is now a church group that calls itself "The Way" just like the "Church of Christ" calls itself off of a possible name found in scripture. And names are just that Ed: descriptions of what they are about. "The Way" was most certainly about the way of salvation, just like the Church of Christ is most certainly a church about Jesus Christ.

I pray you get better at reading scripture for what it really says - and to find out what it really says.

[carma]

Yes Ed, you have basically said, in not so many words, there is only one church to which you must belong, to obtain salvation.

Now, straight out Ed, can someone that is a member of any other denomination other than the Church of Christ denomination, be saved?

Oh and Ed, it was called "The Way".

[LouisBooth]

Ed just one question. Can you show me the greek words for "church of Christ" and show me the scripture reference you refer to? I would like to see those exact words.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: "But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

Ed, you're great at highlighting words. My turn. Look that the "even" indicates an "adding" to those who are not "even."

The word "even" simply means that even those who believe in his name are given the right to become children of God. But how can one believe Jesus unless he receives him first?

You wrote: In one breath you say Jesus died for all sinners, and in the next, you say Jesus died only for the church. Well, the church didn't even exist when Jesus died. Jever never said he died for the church. He said he came to save that which was lost already. There was no such thing as the "Church of Christ." Heck, even the first person to enter Heaven as a result of his faith in Christ was a thief on a cross, and I doubt he probably never went once to a synagogue in his life.

The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation. Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32).

You wrote: Acts 20:28 was written by Paul or Luke, told by Paul or Luke. That verse isn't even Jesus' words. Jesus never said he died for the church alone. In fact it this verse is Paul or Luke addressing leadership of a particular flock (group) of believers. If the whole of believers called themselves the Church of God, then it doesn't make sense why Paul or Luke would address shepherds and not apostles since the real definition for someone in a shepherding office of groups of entire churches are in fact called apostles and not shepherds! But we know this letter isn't addressed to the Apostles because the writer is writing for those who haven't seen what the apostles have seen, otherwise he wouldn't need to write this letter! So instead this verse proves that the letter is written to shepherds of a PARTICULAR flock of certain believers - a flock that Jesus had too died for as the verse continues on to say that his reasons for dying included them.

This is the danger of defending a false doctrine. It gets you farther away from the word of God and in the end, you turn you against the word of God.

Ed: "Those who are not members of the church of Christ remain sinners and are not children of God."

You: I wish to see an exact scripture that says that only members of the Church of Christ are saved.

You cannot always find exact scripture for what God teaches. But even if there were (like John 8:40 and John 17:3), you still would not believed it unless you are truly seeking the truth.

Gal. 4:4-5 says that God sent Jesus to redeem those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons of God. Redemption can only be found in the church that Christ purchased with his own blood (Col. 1:13-14; Acts 20:2:cool: . Thus, only those who are INSIDE the Chruch of christ are redeemed by the blood of Christ and receive adoption as children of God. This should make clear where you stand my friend.

You: The only classes of people as far as salvation is concerned are those who have recieved and accepted what Jesus already did for them, and those that have not recieved his atoning work for their lives.

Ed: "There is no Biblical basis for this statement."

You: There is: John 3:18. The "name" in Jewish idiomology means "to encompass all that a person is, their identity, their very being, and what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in the future." Look it up sometime.

Put that in the verse, and you get nearly exactly what I wrote above.

This is the reason why we have so many false churches. We have so many false teachers who will squeeze anything into a verse to make it fit wht they teach.

Ed: "You are right my friend. Redemption is found only IN Jesus Christ - that is, INSIDE his body, the church of Christ."

You: No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

If you want to impose your will on God, go ahead!

Ed: Acts 19:23 does not say that the group was called "the Way." Let's see what the verse says: "At about that time, there was great commotion about the Way." "

You: Hey Ed, this was NOT a dispute about HOW to be saved, but rather a dispute about these group of believers vs. society. Society was questioning them - not other members in the church. Obviously since it is a dispute about the group, the Way is the name associated with them (early archeological documents prove that there was no official name for the Christians other than "The Way" until many years after Christ's death).

The Bible attests that this was a dispute about HOW to be saved. This was "law of Moses" VS "faith in Christ." This was "circumcision" VS "non-circumcision." Christ said he will build HIS church. Would Christ call HIS church by any other name?

You wrote: In fact this is so much the case that there is now a church group that calls itself "The Way" just like the "Church of Christ" calls itself off of a possible name found in scripture. And names are just that Ed: descriptions of what they are about. "The Way" was most certainly about the way of salvation, just like the Church of Christ is most certainly a church about Jesus Christ.[/quote]

The "WAY" is about the Church of Christ. And the Church of Christ is not about Jesus. The Church of Christ is the body of Christ that he created in himself with him as head where he gathers people in order to reconcile them to God. The Church of Christ is where redemption is found, the forgiveness of sins because as head of the church, Jesus can die for the sins of his body.


Ed

[edpobre]

Carma,

You wrote: Yes Ed, you have basically said, in not so many words, there is only one church to which you must belong, to obtain salvation.

Now, straight out Ed, can someone that is a member of any other denomination other than the Church of Christ denomination, be saved?

Oh and Ed, it was called "The Way".

Only members of the true Church of Christ will be saved according to the Bible. Membership in the true Church of Christ is open to everyone regardless or race, nationality, color or gender.

All you have to do is receive Jesus through the ministers of the church, listen to the true gospel by these ministers, believe the gospel, repent and be converted and get baptized in order to be added to the true Church of christ.

Ed

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: Ed just one question. Can you show me the greek words for "church of Christ" and show me the scripture reference you refer to? I would like to see those exact words.

Have you become like Thomas? Do you remember what Jesus said to him? Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet have believed."

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Have you become like Thomas? Do you remember what Jesus said to him? Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet have believed.""

:lol: in other words what you are saying is not biblical right ed?

Still waiting.."Can you show me the greek words for "church of Christ" and show me the scripture reference you refer to? I would like to see those exact words. "

Even christ showed thomas Ed...there is nothing wrong with asking.

another question would be..the theif on the cross as ryan brings up..he did no works and was not baptised..but he was in "paradise" with christ..this is often assumed to be heaven.

[Josephus]

"But how can one believe Jesus unless he receives him first?"

Ed, the demons believe, and shudder. James 2:19. But they can't recieve Jesus. One can believe Jesus but not recieve Him.

"The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation."

As far as I am concerned, even one exception negates the whole rule. Look at Jesus using David's exception when his disciples plucked grain and ate them in Matthew 12:2-5

1 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

It is logical to assume the spiritual truths are only truths when they are truth all the time. If the thief is an exception to a "truth" being defended then the "truth" being defended isn't a truth all the time, and thus isn't really a truth to base doctrine on. As far as I know, God never grants anyone an exception to any spiritual truth that applies to all men.


"Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32)."

The church didn't exist at all during the days between Jesus' death and resurrection. Heck forget that - when Jesus DIED, there was no church to die for because they all abandoned him that night after he was arrested! Notice that all of them went back to their normal lives, like the fishermen going back to their nets. Judas hung himself. The group was no more. But when Jesus rose himself from the dead (and I don't know of any man that can do that by himself as Jesus claimed he would and did) everything changed.



You: There is: John 3:18. The "name" in Jewish idiomology means "to encompass all that a person is, their identity, their very being, and what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in the future." Look it up sometime.

Put that in the verse, and you get nearly exactly what I wrote above.


This is the reason why we have so many false churches. We have so many false teachers who will squeeze anything into a verse to make it fit wht they teach.

And there are those who will always refuse to study scripture for themselves to show themselves approved and instead will blindly believe what somebody else says that seems most comfortable to them.



You: No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

If you want to impose your will on God, go ahead!


I don't see how this is imposing my will on God. It is truth I have discovered for myself:
Salvation is only in and from the person of Jesus Christ - not his "body of believers":
Psalm 37:39
Psalm 62:1
Romans 3:24
Ephesians 1:7
Col 1:14

and to your last point:

the Way was the name given to this group:
Acts 24:14

[carma]

The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation. Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32).

The Church was not born until Pentecost. Maybe you should read the first few chapters of Acts again. Jesus said a lot in the first chapter of Acts. The Church was not born until the Holy Spirit came to man and that did not happen until Jesus left.

Tell us ed, what is the true Church of Christ?

Why are you avoiding this question?

As I understand it there are many "Church of Christ", so which one is the only correct one...the "one that can save" a person? Here all the time I foolishly believed that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was what saved and you are telling me that having my name on the membership roll of a certain Church of Christ is what is required.

Too bad Jesus didn't know that, looks like He went to the cross for nothing.......or for only one branch of one denomination. :rolleyes:

Stop beating around the bush ed, if you are really so concerned, seems you wouldn't keep a secret of the name of the Church that alone, can save us.

[ZoneChaos]

Good point Carma.. ther is a "Church of Christ" down the street from me, and they don't even have a membership of anykind... /shrug ;)

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

another question would be..the theif on the cross as ryan brings up..he did no works and was not baptised..but he was in "paradise" with christ..this is often assumed to be heaven.

Again, your asssumption that the thief is in heaven is wrong. This is what you get when you listen to preachers who are not sent by God. You get the wrong message.

Ask yourself these questions LB:

1) Did the thief go to heaven ahead of Christ? Where's the scripture that says this?

2) Did the thief go with Christ to heaven? Acts 1:11 sys Jesus went up to heaven alone.

3) Did the thief go to heaven after Christ went to heaven? Where's the scripture that says this?

4) Does the thief deserve to go to heaven ahead of King David? If your answer is yes, please show me proof of this. If your answer is no, then why would the thief go ahead of King David who was dead and remained buried on the day the book of Acts was written (Acts 2:29-30)?

Regarding the name of the church that Christ built ask yourself these questions:

1) Christ built HIS Church. Would he name it after Martin Luther or any other name?

2) Christ is the head of the church, his body. Would the body have a name that is different from the head? Christ is the name of the head. Would his body be called body of Ellen White?

Again, you are being deceived by the devil through your reliance on Greek. The church, whatever it is called in Greek, is the body of Christ. It is not a building as Catholics and Protestant believe a church is. Christ being the head of HIS body naturally calls HIS body the BODY OF CHRIST. Since his body is the [/b]church[/b] (Col. 1:1:cool: , then HIS church is called CHURCH OF CHRIST.

Thus, Apostle Paul called the members of HIS body, churches of Christ (Rom. 16:16). And the Lamsa translatioin of Acts 20:28 calls the church that Christ purchased with his own blood Church of Christ.

Ed

[edpobre]

Josephus,

But how can one believe Jesus unless he receives him first?"

Ed, the demons believe, and shudder. James 2:19. But they can't recieve Jesus. One can believe Jesus but not recieve Him.

Please tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first? What is your understanding of "receiving Jesus?" Apostle Paul says in Rom. 10:14-15 that one cannot believe believe Jesus unless he hears him. And one cannot hear Jesus unless there is a preacher. And one cannot preach unless he is sent. So tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first?

"The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation."

As far as I am concerned, even one exception negates the whole rule. Look at Jesus using David's exception when his disciples plucked grain and ate them in Matthew 12:2-5

1 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

It is logical to assume the spiritual truths are only truths when they are truth all the time. If the thief is an exception to a "truth" being defended then the "truth" being defended isn't a truth all the time, and thus isn't really a truth to base doctrine on. As far as I know, God never grants anyone an exception to any spiritual truth that applies to all men.

Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

If this command was abolished when the thief was assured salvation without baptism on the cross, why did apostle Peter exhort his listeners to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:3:cool: ? Why did the apostles baptize believers (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:31-33)?

Just as Jesus could forgive sins when he was on earth, he could also grant salvation to whomever he wished to without contradicting his command.

"Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32)."

The church didn't exist at all during the days between Jesus' death and resurrection. Heck forget that - when Jesus DIED, there was no church to die for because they all abandoned him that night after he was arrested! Notice that all of them went back to their normal lives, like the fishermen going back to their nets. Judas hung himself. The group was no more. But when Jesus rose himself from the dead (and I don't know of any man that can do that by himself as Jesus claimed he would and did) everything changed.

Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

You: And there are those who will always refuse to study scripture for themselves to show themselves approved and instead will blindly believe what somebody else says that seems most comfortable to them.

How true! The Trinity doctrine is proof of what you said. The belief that Jesus is God is not in the Bible yet people believe it because it is comfortable to them.

You: No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

If you want to impose your will on God, go ahead!

I don't see how this is imposing my will on God. It is truth I have discovered for myself:

Salvation is only in and from the person of Jesus Christ - not his "body of believers":

Read Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25 and Eph. 5:23. These verses prove that Jesus saves through t

[canthappen]

CoC=Catholics without a pope. :)

[Josephus]

[/quote]Please tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first? What is your understanding of "receiving Jesus?"[/quote]

Recieving Jesus means to make Jesus the Savior of your life, as well as making him Lord of your life.

[/quote]
Apostle Paul says in Rom. 10:14-15 that one cannot believe believe Jesus unless he hears him. And one cannot hear Jesus unless there is a preacher. And one cannot preach unless he is sent.[/quote]

What makes you believe in order for someone to hear Jesus that they HAVE to hear it from a preacher? Don't you think that limits God's proven abilities to communicate to people through dreams, through the written word, through visions, angels, and more?


So tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first?

Easy: simply by knowing who Jesus is. One can know God and believe in God, but only those willing (and those alive) are able to make him Savior and Lord of their lives.


Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

Yup.


If this command was abolished when the thief was assured salvation without baptism on the cross, why did apostle Peter exhort his listeners to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:3 ? Why did the apostles baptize believers (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:31-33)?

First, Jesus gave no such requirement to be baptized in water for salvation when he spoke to Nicodemous about what one must do to be saved in John 3:4-6.

Peter asked those who believed to be baptized as it signifigantly identifies them as no longer religious Jews, but now devout Christians. It was such a shift in belief that being baptized was ultimate proof that you were saved, because only those brave enough to know the concequences of baptism would take the risk unless they truly believed in what they were doing - and others could see that. 3000 men Jews alone out of several million that day... those were brave lads.



Just as Jesus could forgive sins when he was on earth, he could also grant salvation to whomever he wished to without contradicting his command.
First, this is a contradiction. You've been saying you have to do this and that to be saved, now you're saying it doesn't matter since Jesus could just pick and choose anyway.

Second, this is incorrect. His command is for us to love God and to love one another. Salvation and making Jesus Lord of our lives depends on us loving God and is proven by us loving people.


Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for everyone while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.

All we have to do now is simplu recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

God bless.

[edpobre]

Carma,

You wrote: The Church was not born until Pentecost. Maybe you should read the first few chapters of Acts again. Jesus said a lot in the first chapter of Acts. The Church was not born until the Holy Spirit came to man and that did not happen until Jesus left.

I hate these people who taught you false doctrines. They should be accursed! The teaching that the church was not born until Pentecost is false!

Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:4-8 that Jesus was seen by about 500 brethren after he was raised from the dead. The day Jesus ascended to heaven, he was with his apostles (Heb. 1:11). After that Peter stood in the midst of the disciples numbering about a hundred and twenty (Heb. 1:15).
These people composed the church that Christ died for (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:2:cool: . Apostle Paul called these people, "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16).

You wrote: As I understand it there are many "Church of Christ", so which one is the only correct one...the "one that can save" a person? Here all the time I foolishly believed that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was what saved and you are telling me that having my name on the membership roll of a certain Church of Christ is what is required.

Too bad Jesus didn't know that, looks like He went to the cross for nothing.......or for only one branch of one denomination.

No, Jesus did not go to the cross for nothing. He went to the cross for HIS church (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:2:cool: . You were indeed foolish to believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus saves everyone. It is the church that Jesus will save (Eph. :23).

That's why I'm inviting you to become a member of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days. The church of Christ in the first century was in Greek or Hebrew and it had for its members Jews, and Gentiles who were converted through the preaching of the gospel by Jews. The Iglesia Ni Cristo (true church of Christ in these last days) has for its members Christ's "other sheep" (John 10:9) or those whom apostle Peter said were "afar off" (Acts 2:39).

Ed

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Ed: Please tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first? What is your understanding of "receiving Jesus?"

J:Recieving Jesus means to make Jesus the Savior of your life, as well as making him Lord of your life.

That's what it means to you. But what does the Bible say? How do you make Jesus the savior of your life? And how do you make Jesus the Lord of your life? Is making Jesus the savior and Lord of youyr life the Biblical way of receiving Jesus? Please show me the verse!

Ed: Apostle Paul says in Rom. 10:14-15 that one cannot believe Jesus unless he hears him. And one cannot hear Jesus unless there is a preacher. And one cannot preach unless he is sent.

J: What makes you believe in order for someone to hear Jesus that they HAVE to hear it from a preacher? Don't you think that limits God's proven abilities to communicate to people through dreams, through the written word, through visions, angels, and more?

That's not what I think Josephus. That's what the Bible teaches. It's not a question of limiting God's proven abilities. It is a question of what God wants and whether you believe what God wants or not. Read Rom. 10:14-15 again and let it sink in.

Ed: So tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first?

J: Easy: simply by knowing who Jesus is. One can know God and believe in God, but only those willing (and those alive) are able to make him Savior and Lord of their lives.

Again, you are talking from the top of your head and not from the Bible. Show me the verse to support what you are saying.

Ed: Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

J: Yup.

What do you mean by this friend? Please clarify.

Ed: If this command was abolished when the thief was assured salvation without baptism on the cross, why did apostle Peter exhort his listeners to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:3 ? Why did the apostles baptize believers (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:31-33)?

J: First, Jesus gave no such requirement to be baptized in water for salvation when he spoke to Nicodemous about what one must do to be saved in John 3:4-6.

That's the danger of picking verses to fit a doctrine. Just because Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to be baptized doesn't mean that baptism is not relevant. Being born again involves the complete process starting from receiving messengers sent by God, listening to the true gospel they preach, believing the gospel, repenting and being converted, getting baptized and being added into the church or body of Christ.

You wrote: Peter asked those who believed to be baptized as it signifigantly identifies them as no longer religious Jews, but now devout Christians. It was such a shift in belief that being baptized was ultimate proof that you were saved, because only those brave enough to know the concequences of baptism would take the risk unless they truly believed in what they were doing - and others could see that. 3000 men Jews alone out of several million that day... those were brave lads.

First, what you are saying is a figment of your imagination because it does not have any Biblical basis. That's pure speculation.

Second, baptism into the body of Christ results in redemption by the blood of Christ and forgiveness of sins because it is the body of Christ for whom Christ died. One cannot become a member of the body without getting baptized into it.

Ed: Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

J: How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for everyone while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.

How can you be included in the letters of apostle Paul when his God is different from yours? In 1 Cor. 8:6 apistle Paul says that for them (he and the Christians at that time) there is only one God, the Father...(one God in one person) Your God is one God in three persons. How can Paul be talking to you?

You wrote: All we have to do now is simplu recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

Show me the verse that supports your belief. Otherwise, this is a false teaching.

Ed

[Josephus]

What does the Bible say about recieving Jesus? How do you make Jesus the savior of your life? And how do you make Jesus the Lord of your life? Is making Jesus the savior and Lord of youyr life the Biblical way of receiving Jesus? Please show me the verse!

You know what, that's actually a pretty good question. I tell you what: as I write the period at the end of this sentence I will take a short moment to pray for God to REVEAL to me scriptures in the bible that answer these very questions.

I just turned to 1 Corinthians 1:17 RANDOMLY in my brand-new (as of two weeks ago), hardly used (maybe five times to read things), never marked-in, pocket bible: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Taking this verse as part of God's answer to what it means to make Jesus your savior: Salvation is not about baptism, and we know that baptism was about bringing people into the church. Paul didn't think this was important, and here it clearly says Paul didn't even believe that that was what God wanted him to do when he was sent! Obviously if God is into saving people and if the road to salvation included baptism, then God either made a mistake or it's not important at all because Paul himself, the Apostle to the Gentiles, didn't believe that was what God had sent him to do as he went and preached.

Now onto your next question. I will do the same thing. After the period is typed at the end of this sentence, I will pray, and let God show me the answer that you need.

I randomly turn to Matthew 6:25
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important thatn good, and the body more important than clothes?"

...oh my goodness. You realized I just sat and pondered about that for a few minutes as to why God would have me randomly flip to that verse? It just now slapped me in the face as I wrote "oh my goodness." Maybe perhaps it's something you already know as you read this, if not, well go ahead and read your John 17:3 thread and my response there. I feel God has just showed you an example of someone making Jesus the Lord of their life. Read about what I have done, my responses in that context (in that I have truly made Jesus the Lord of my life). Notice also what I asked you to tell me. If you don't have anything in recent history or even in memory at all about proving your faith in God and your relationship with Him by your actions, then I really ask you to possibly consider that you haven't made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. I know that this is tough for you take. But I ask you in tough and honest love, (I'm sorry if this is a slap in the face) to consider and to honestly think about your relationship with God, what it's been, where it's going. Because I feel God is giving you an opportunity now, with me, and he is using me in this moment of time in your life to reach you in a way others probably haven't been able to. I invite you to email me if you have questions or want to carry this conversation off the board. For now, I just want you to know that I am praying for you, that God show you what you really need to see.

God bless,
<><
in Christ,
Ryan



J: Easy: simply by knowing who Jesus is. One can know God and believe in God, but only those willing (and those alive) are able to make him Savior and Lord of their lives.

e: Again, you are talking from the top of your head and not from the Bible. Show me the verse to support what you are saying.


Well, it stands as simple logic. But I can give you scripture:
The Pharisees believed in God, and they knew Jesus, but they didn't believe who Jesus was:
Luke 22:70,71
They didn't believe Jesus, but they knew him and they knew God. They couldn't receive him because they choose not to.

Matthew 25:41-46 is another one. People knew Jesus, but they rejected Him.

And that fits as well with the other point: You can't be saved when you're dead.


Ed: Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

J: Yup.

What do you mean by this friend? Please clarify.

I meant, yup, I do believe. But I also believe what God showed me in 1 Corinthians too about Paul not considering baptism important enough to be something to do when one preaches to unbelievers. Somehow, the two half to be harmonized, and as I see it as being harmonized is that baptism is PROOF of your faith in obedience to Jesus, not a requirement for salvation. Jesus commands us to be baptized for a reason, but not salvation. Baptism is the proof of a good concience towards God, nothing more (1 Peter 3:21 - "not the act of baptism, but the pledge of a good concience towards God" ... go read it for yourself.). If you like, we can open up a seperate topic on baptism.


Just because Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to be baptized doesn't mean that baptism is not relevant.


Yes it does mean that it's not. If Jesus thought it were important for this man to be saved, he'd tell him ALL that he needed to do to be saved. If not, then Jesus was lying. Same thing with the rich man who asked Jesus what he must do to be saved: on top of all that that man had done, Jesus told him to "give up all you have and give it to the poor" - and said nothing of being baptized in water. Again, if it were important for that man's salvation, then Jesus didn't answer his question, but instead told him everything to do except that - and that is what I call an important enough omission to render the 'requirement' null and void towards salvation itself. But don't get me wrong, I believe baptism is important (as I stated what baptism means), but not necessary for salvation itself. Only Christ can save us. We can't save ourselves or finish the work of our faith because we are NOT the author and finisher of it. Again, let's open a seperate topic on the issue if you must.



Being born again involves the complete process starting from receiving messengers sent by God, listening to the true gospel they preach, believing the gospel, repenting and being converted, getting baptized and being added into the church or body of Christ.


No, being born again means just what Jesus meant in response to Nicodemous' EXACT question in John 3:5 and 6. Are you calling Jesus a liar?

I do believe though that making Jesus LORD of our lives is a daily process as James says it is: faith without "proof" is dead.



Second, baptism into the body of Christ results in redemption by the blood of Christ and forgiveness of sins because it is the body of Christ for whom Christ died.

Let me prove to you the incorrect theology this is: So you're saying Jesus didn't die for me? He died for the church. I didn't even exist when he died. I wasn't even a part of the church until I visited one. How could Christ die for me without me being the church yet? So in effect you ARE saying Christ died ONLY for the church and nothing but the church (his body).

As far as I know, Christ died for ALL sinners (check it out in Romans , and as far as I know, not all sinners will be saved. And God sent his son for the entire WORLD - don't contradict John 3:16. It says "God so loved the World" not "God so loved the Church." Tell me if I am wrong. Ed, you gotta realize that what you are writing is not supportable when these things are looked at real hard. Even a cursory look shows where your theology is wrong in areas. Please, I ask you to consider that what I may be saying in regards to my experiences, and my life with God as true.

One cannot become a member of the body without getting baptized into it.

Jesus never baptized his disciples or anyone for that matter. Strange. Yet he still accepted them as his family - as his body.

please please please reconsider some of the doctrine you are sharing. As a friend, I can only tell you that you are wrong, but it is my prayer that God can show you where I am right.



How can you be included in the letters of apostle Paul when his God is different from yours? In 1 Cor. 8:6 apistle Paul says that for them (he and the Christians at that time) there is only one God, the Father...(one God in one person) Your God is one God in three persons. How can Paul be talking to you?

Ok, now we're off track. I think you totally missed my point about the disciples deserting Jesus and they didn't believe in Him when he died. I would rather you respond to my point about this than to debate what I believe or don't believe.



Me: All we have to do now is simplu recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

You: Show me the verse that supports your belief. Otherwise, this is a false teaching.

Ed, may I ask how old you are? I am only 22, yet I knew this when I was 17 simply by reading my bible. Your answers show an unfamiliarity with scripture. Instead, what I am getting over and over is preprogrammed doctrine. This wont work for the kind of discussion I feel could really benefit the both of us. If you really love me, then I would ask that you consider speaking to me on my level. I want you to be yourself and to respond with a true interest for finding out the truth, I want you to dig for scripture on your own, and to read what I write as if you were me. Try to get my mind, and don't stereotype me please. I am a human being. If God has sent you to speak to me, then speak from his heart, not from your mind. We are both in this together.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: I just turned to 1 Corinthians 1:17 RANDOMLY in my brand-new (as of two weeks ago), hardly used (maybe five times to read things), never marked-in, pocket bible: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Taking this verse as part of God's answer to what it means to make Jesus your savior: Salvation is not about baptism, and we know that baptism was about bringing people into the church. Paul didn't think this was important, and here it clearly says Paul didn't even believe that that was what God wanted him to do when he was sent! Obviously if God is into saving people and if the road to salvation included baptism, then God either made a mistake or it's not important at all because Paul himself, the Apostle to the Gentiles, didn't believe that was what God had sent him to do as he went and preached.

Of course Paul was not sent to baptize. Otherwise he would be baptizing without preaching the gospel! On the other hand, Paul was sent to preach the gospel. The problem is you don't know what the gospel is Josephus. Does the gospel include baptism or not? Let's see how Paul accomplished his mission and find out if baptism was part of the gospel.

Turn your brand-new Bible to Acts chapter 16 verse 29 where the prison guard falls down trembling before Paul and Silas. In verse 30 he asks them what he should do to be saved. So they said to him (verse 31), " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What proof does the Bible present to show that the prison guard and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ?

Verse 32 says Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in the house. Verse 33 says they were immediately baptized. And only after all were baptized does the Bible say that the prison guard rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Apparently, you misunderstood what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 1:17.

You wrote: If you don't have anything in recent history or even in memory at all about proving your faith in God and your relationship with Him by your actions, then I really ask you to possibly consider that you haven't made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. I know that this is tough for you take. But I ask you in tough and honest love, (I'm sorry if this is a slap in the face) to consider and to honestly think about your relationship with God, what it's been, where it's going.

You really don't know how Jesus is Lord of one's life. And you can't have any relationship with God if you haven't been reconciled to Him.

The Bible teaches that Christ has authority over the church and the church submits itself to Christ and he i the savior of the church, his body (Eph. 5:23-24 TEV). Thus, if you really want to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you have to become a member of his body, the church because it is the church that has a relationship with Christ.

To be reconciled to God, you have to be in his body, the church (Eph. 2:16; Col. 1:21-22).

You wrote: So in effect you ARE saying Christ died ONLY for the church and nothing but the church (his body).

I'm not saying this. The Bible does. Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:2:cool: .

You wrote: As far as I know, Christ died for ALL sinners (check it out in Romans , and as far as I know, not all sinners will be saved. And God sent his son for the entire WORLD - don't contradict John 3:16. It says "God so loved the World" not "God so loved the Church." Tell me if I am wrong.

You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days.

Ed: How can you be included in the letters of apostle Paul when his God is different from yours? In 1 Cor. 8:6 apostle Paul says that for them (he and the Christians at that time) there is only one God, the Father...(one God in one person) Your God is one God in three persons. How can Paul be talking to you?

J: Ok, now we're off track. I think you totally missed my point about the disciples deserting Jesus and they didn't believe in Him when he died. I would rather you respond to my point about this than to debate what I believe or don't believe.

I am not debating what you believe or don't believe. My point is you cannot use Paul's letters to support your beliefs because Paul is not talking to you. He is talking to members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days, the church where I am an individual member of.

J: All we have to do now is simply recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

Ed: Show me the verse that supports your belief. Otherwise, this is a false teaching.

J: Ed, may I ask how old you are? I am only 22, yet I knew this when I was 17 simply by reading my bible. Your answers show an unfamiliarity with scripture. Instead, what I am getting over and over is preprogrammed doctrine.

How can you say I'm unfamiliar with scripture when you haven't shown me any to support your belief?

You wrote: This wont work for the kind of discussion I feel could really benefit the both of us. If you really love me, then I would ask that you consider speaking to me on my level.

I can't stoop down to your level and say things from the top of my head. I don't have any opinion on the issues that we are discussing. I only say things that the Bible teaches. The moment I let go of the word of God, we would both be blind men leading each other without any sense of where we are going.

You wrote: I want you to be yourself and to respond with a true interest for finding out the truth, I want you to dig for scripture on your own, and to read what I write as if you were me. Try to get my mind, and don't stereotype me please. I am a human being. If God has sent you to speak to me, then speak from his heart, not from your mind. We are both in this together

If you can't give scriptures to support your belief, then say so. I don't have to dig scripture for my own because I'm sure that what you are saying is not supported by scripture. I have heard this false way of accepting Christ as Lord and savior long before you were born and up to now, nobody has given me any verse to support it. So I know it's crap.

Why don't you look up the verses I posted with this topic if you are really seeking the truth. Perhaps God will have mercy on you and remove your blinders that you may come to the knowledge of the truth.

[LouisBooth]

"If you can't give scriptures to support your belief, then say so. I don't have to dig scripture for my own because I'm sure that what you are saying is not supported by scripture. I have heard this false way of accepting Christ as Lord and savior long before you were born and up to now, nobody has given me any verse to support it. So I know it's crap."

Okay ed, I have been silent but what you are saying is "crap". We have over and over given you biblical support for our belief as christians and you just refuse to believe it. We show you that you are wrong in your readings of scripture through other verses in the bible but again you just refuse to accept it. The verses you post are 1. out of context 2. don't even say the things you say they do (like the word father in John 17:9, or whatever verse you use there) or 3. you are just wrong about it because of yet again context. You are wrong Ed, I grew up in a church of christ and saw the wrongness of it. I saw the distortion of the bible they do, the false teachings they spread. I have seen it first hand. I have seen how you shun people for what they believe. This is NOT what Jesus stood for and I am tired of you preaching a false message.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

ED: "If you can't give scriptures to support your belief, then say so. I don't have to dig scripture for my own because I'm sure that what you are saying is not supported by scripture. I have heard this false way of accepting Christ as Lord and savior long before you were born and up to now, nobody has given me any verse to support it. So I know it's crap."

LB:o kay ed, I have been silent but what you are saying is "crap". We have over and over given you biblical support for our belief as christians and you just refuse to believe it. We show you that you are wrong in your readings of scripture through other verses in the bible but again you just refuse to accept it. The verses you post are 1. out of context 2. don't even say the things you say they do (like the word father in John 17:9, or whatever verse you use there) or 3. you are just wrong about it because of yet again context. You are wrong Ed,

It is not enough to say you are wrong Ed. You say that John 17:3 doesn't even mention the word "father." And to you that proves that Jesus is not referring to the Father. You keep talking of context but you simply conveniently disregard context when it goes against your belief. Why don't you back up to verse 1 (this means context, right?) and find out whom Christ was talking to?

You wrote: I grew up in a church of christ and saw the wrongness of it. I saw the distortion of the bible they do, the false teachings they spread. I have seen it first hand.

You grew up in a false church of Christ Louis. Like your present church, they definitely distort scriptures either.

You wrote: I have seen how you shun people for what they believe. This is NOT what Jesus stood for and I am tired of you preaching a false message.

Again, you are falsely accusing me of something I don't do. I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. As you can see, I'm still talking to you. The truth is, what you are sying ws what the Pharisees were saying during the time of Christ.

Ed

[Josephus]

In regards to baptism, it looks like we have come to an agreement that baptism is not a requirement for salvation (as you said only those who "believe" are saved), and the agreement is that baptism is proof of a good concience toward God (1 Peter 3:21).

Now we can move on to the next point...


"You really don't know how Jesus is Lord of one's life. And you can't have any relationship with God if
you haven't been reconciled to Him. "

You're judging my salvation. This is inappropriate because I have not asked you to judge me. God is my judge, not you. You can't possibly know if I have a "relationship" with God or not. You can only assume, and as far as a logical debate is concerned, that type of assumption will get you no where fast. I ask that you please refrain from it as it is a totally invalid defense to ignore what I am saying.


"I'm not saying this. The Bible does. Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased the church with his blood "

So you're saying that in order for me to communicate to God directly, I have to go through the Church? I can't talk to God on my own? That's what personal relationship means, ed. To have a personal relationship with someone means you don't go through anyone else to make it happen, othewise it's not a personal relationship, but a contractural relationship with a middle guy.


"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."

Jesus died for the whole world, ed, not just the church (but he did die for it though too). This makes it possible for ANYONE to come to God through Jesus Christ, and not just those who are a member of a church.


Turn your brand-new Bible to Acts chapter 16 verse 29 where the prison guard falls down trembling before Paul and Silas. In verse 30 he asks them what he should do to be saved. So they said to him (verse 31), " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What proof does the Bible present to show that the prison guard and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ?


This has gotta be the most incredible thing I ever see you post, ed. It totally destroys everything you are saying about being a member of the church to be saved.

Ed, let me ask you this: do you become a "believer" before you join the Church, or do you become a "believer" when you believe? You said earlier that those who believe are saved, so in effect you are saying that anyone who just simply believes is saved. You are negating your own statements that state you have to be a member of a church to be saved. First you believe, THEN you become a member.


"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."

It doesn't matter WHERE you find them, ed. It just matters that you believe. Just as you said. Stop contradicting yourself and adding things. Simply read what you are posting.


"My point is you cannot use Paul's letters to support your beliefs because Paul is not talking to you. He is talking to members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days, the church where I am an individual member of."

So you're saying that it's illegal for me to use any of Paul's letters to defend what I believe? Isn't scripture given to all men to find out about God?

I find your opinion on this very...unfair. I can't even use scripture to prove answers to the very questions you post to me! :

Ed: Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

J: How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for EVERYONE while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.

It doesn't matter WHO Paul is speaking to - I'm just reading what it says! I include myself in the "everyone"! To not do so would be to ignore the fact that I'm a human being!

Romans says that Jesus died for EVERYONE!!!!! ALL sinners includes EVERYONE!!!!! Stop saying that Jesus died only for the church!!!!

==================
J: All we have to do now is simply recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

e:How can you say I'm unfamiliar with scripture when you haven't shown me any to support your belief?
===================

Accepting his work of atonement:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:25


living as a daily sacrifice:
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." Romans 12:1

I can't believe you don't understand where I am comming from. Why ask for scripture when it's plainly here? Don't you read it for yourself, or do you use some doctrinal program to tell you how to read things?


"I can't stoop down to your level and say things from the top of my head."

Then you aren't a follower of Jesus in my opinion, because this is exactly what Jesus did, and what Paul did. To the Jews: he was a Jew. To the Gentiles: a Gentile. If you can not do this for me, then you have no obvious love for me. If you can not love me, then you do not know the unconditional love of God which he also had for the entire world when He sent His Son.


"I don't have any opinion on the issues that we are discussing. I only say things that the Bible teaches. The moment I let go of the word of God, we would both be blind men leading each other without any sense of where we are going."

I'm glad you're willing to limit yourself. But how about being a little more personal, and prove to me by some story in recent history that your faith is active and that God is with you?

"I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. As you can see, I'm still talking to you. The truth is, what you are sying ws what the Pharisees were saying during the time of Christ."

I consider calling people morons, and judging people's salvation and using that as an excuse not to talk to them is certainly a "shun." But we aren't here to debate this. Let's get back on topic. I look forward to your responses.

[LouisBooth]

"Why don't you back up to verse 1 (this means context, right?) and find out whom Christ was talking to?"

:lol: I was refering to the fact that that verse doesn't say father in it..does it? Nope ..that's all I said Ed.

"I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. "

Yes you have ed. You shun people and say they aren't saved unless they are in a certain phycial location. Jesus NEVER said anything to that effect. I was not in a "false" church (actaully I was because they said the SAME things you do) and that is why I know your docterines and I know they are wrong. I have told you time and time again how your theology about the church of Christ being the ONLY church is wrong and how it ONLY takes faith to be saved.

[savinggrc]

Did you all ever notice that not one single time does the Bible say, "church of Christ?" Nope. Chuch of God. Church of the living God. Church of the firstborn. And then the sundry references to local churches, but never one time to the "church of Christ." So, uh, what do we care about the rules to get into the Church of Christ denomination? :)

[LouisBooth]

I have to appologize ed if you think I am attacking you. Upon prayer and reading that again I think it could be taken that way. I am not attacking you but I am attacking the false teaching of the church of Christ.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: I have to appologize ed if you think I am attacking you. Upon prayer and reading that again I think it could be taken that way. I am not attacking you but I am attacking the false teaching of the church of Christ.

You say you are not attacking me but you are attacking the false teaching of the church of Christ. For the benefit of readers, please specify what teaching of the church of Christ you consider false and why.

By way of helping you in this regard, let me run down some of the Iglesia Ni Cristo (church of Christ) doctrines that perhaps you and many others on this board feel repulsive:

1) Jesus is a man. Jesus says so himself in John 8:40. The apostles also taught that Jesus is a man (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

2) Jesus is NOT God. Jesus taught that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). If Jesus says the Father is the only true God, we can't see how Jesus can also be God in addition to the Father.

3) One must DO the will of God in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Matt. 7:21.

4) One must become a member of the body or church of Christ to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in John 10:9.

5) One must be baptized and added to the church of Christ in order to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Mark 16:16.

Which one of these doctrines is false Louis?

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"1) Jesus is a man. Jesus says so himself in John 8:40. The apostles also taught that Jesus is a man (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5)."

Agreed. but not just a man, for a man can't be perfect. A man can't do what Jesus did. a man can't forgive sins.

"2) Jesus is NOT God. Jesus taught that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). If Jesus says the Father is the only true God, we can't see how Jesus can also be God in addition to the Father."

This is wrong..Just read the first chapter of John, or that passage in Luke, or the I am statement Jesus made. Jesus said he was God and also went a step further by showing he was God.

"3) One must DO the will of God in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Matt. 7:21."

wrong again. it is by faith alone you are saved. Works show that you are saved to an outside observer but God knows the heart. By the way Mat 7:21 proves my point..it is NOT by outside actions it is ONLY by true faith ALONE.

"4) One must become a member of the body or church of Christ to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in John 10:9."

You are adding onto this verse. NO WHERE DOES IT MENTION THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. It says that those that enter by christ..not through just a specific church..try again ed.

"5) One must be baptized and added to the church of Christ in order to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Mark 16:16."

wrong again. Show me the verse that says you are condemned if you are not baptised? Do that and I will agree with you. Until then you have NOT proved your point.

"Which one of these doctrines is false Louis?"

All of except that first one ed.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

Ed: "1) Jesus is a man. Jesus says so himself in John 8:40. The apostles also taught that Jesus is a man (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5)."

LB: Agreed. but not just a man, for a man can't be perfect. A man can't do what Jesus did. a man can't forgive sins.

A false teacher must have taught you that Jesus had to be God to forgive sins. The Bible does not teach this doctrine.

The Jesus who said he has the power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10) is the same Jesus who said he is a man (John 8:40) and is also the same Jesus whom God exalted to His right hand to be Prince and savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Ed: "2) Jesus is NOT God. Jesus taught that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). If Jesus says the Father is the only true God, we can't see how Jesus can also be God in addition to the Father."

LB: This is wrong..Just read the first chapter of John, or that passage in Luke, or the I am statement Jesus made. Jesus said he was God and also went a step further by showing he was God.

You mean Jesus is wrong because what he says in John 17:3 does not agree with your belief that Jesus is God! You say that "Jesus said he is God" yet we read in John 17:3 that Jesus says the Father is the only true God. Unless you can show me the verse which quotes Jesus as saying that he is God, then I would say that you are only making this up.

Ed: "3) One must DO the will of God in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Matt. 7:21."

LB: wrong again. it is by faith alone you are saved. Works show that you are saved to an outside observer but God knows the heart. By the way Mat 7:21 proves my point..it is NOT by outside actions it is ONLY by true faith ALONE.

You mean Jesus is wrong again because what he says does not agree with your belief that man is saved by "faith ALONE." Matt. 7:21 reads: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Can't you see that those who are fond of saying 'Lord, Lord' are those who believe that they are saved by faith alone?

Ed: "4) One must become a member of the body or church of Christ to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in John 10:9."

LB: You are adding onto this verse. NO WHERE DOES IT MENTION THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. It says that those that enter by christ..not through just a specific church..try again ed.

Hey, what happened to your CONTEXT Louis? What do you enter by Christ? In John 10:1 we hear Jesus talking of a door to the sheepfold. And in John 10:7 we hear Jesus saying that he is the door of the sheep. Thus, John 10:9 must be referring to a sheepfold or a flock. This flock is the church of Christ which he purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

Entering the flock or church of Christ by him means becoming a member of the church of Christ by the doctrines taught by Christ.

Ed: "5) One must be baptized and added to the church of Christ in order to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Mark 16:16."

LB: wrong again. Show me the verse that says you are condemned if you are not baptised? Do that and I will agree with you. Until then you have NOT proved your point.

You mean Jesus is wrong again because what he says does not agree with your belief that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

According to Jesus, one who believes AND is baptized will be saved. One who does not believe will be condemned. Now let me ask you Louis and I hope you answer honestly: 1) one believes but does not want to be baptized, will he be saved?; 2) one does not believe but is baptized anyway, will he be saved?; and 3) one does not believe and therefore not baptized, will he be saved?

Ed: "Which one of these doctrines is false Louis?"

LB: All of except that first one ed.

Do you realize that you just called Christ a false teacher? These are Christ's doctrines, not mine and you just said these doctrines are false!

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"A false teacher must have taught you that Jesus had to be God to forgive sins. The Bible does not teach this doctrine.

The Jesus who said he has the power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10) is the same Jesus who said he is a man (John 8:40) and is also the same Jesus whom God exalted to His right hand to be Prince and savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Ed, sin is ulitimatly against God and only God can forgive it. The pharisees recognized this why don't you? This is one of the many ways Jesus was showing he was God in actions. Yes, this is the same Jesus who said I am..the SAME name of God used in the OT. He also initated a new relationship with God..who can do that but God alone..no mere man can because a mere man is flawed. Why do you think that in Luke and in mark they said , "Whe does this fellow talk like that ITS BLASPHEMY!! Who can forgive sins BUT GOD ALONE." Ed, blasphy is making yourself equal to God (ie saying I AM GOD). Get it?

"You mean Jesus is wrong because what he says in John 17:3 does not agree with your belief that Jesus is God! "

No, it agrees EXACTLY with what I said. THREE IN ONE. There is only one God expressed in three parts, each equal to each other and totally distinctive.

"that Jesus says the Father is the only true God. Unless you can show me the verse which quotes Jesus as saying that he is God, then I would say that you are only making this up."

I as well as several other people have shown you..If you have ears ed, then HEAR.

"Can't you see that those who are fond of saying 'Lord, Lord' are those who believe that they are saved by faith alone?"

:lol: no ed, those are the ones WITHOUT true faith. God sees the heart you cannot fool him by saying Lord Lord. It takes true faith..that's all, not lip service. That is what that verse is saying.

"What do you enter by Christ? "

You enter Christ by faith Ed. That is what is preached in the bible. (see your bible for details ;) )

"Entering the flock or church of Christ by him means becoming a member of the church of Christ by the doctrines taught by Christ."

No ed, the "church of christ" is mentioned NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE AND DIDN'T EXSIST UNTIL MANY MANY YEARS LATER.

"You mean Jesus is wrong again because what he says does not agree with your belief that baptism is not necessary for salvation."

Show me where it says if you are not baptised you are not saved.

"Do you realize that you just called Christ a false teacher? These are Christ's doctrines, not mine and you just said these doctrines are false!"

You're the false teacher ed, one of the ones The Christ and Paul warned us about. You take verses out of context, add things in and pull ideas out of the air and put verses together that don't even refer to the same topic to prove your point.

[edpobre]

savinggrc,

You wrote: Did you all ever notice that not one single time does the Bible say, "church of Christ?" Nope. Chuch of God. Church of the living God. Church of the firstborn. And then the sundry references to local churches, but never one time to the "church of Christ." So, uh, what do we care about the rules to get into the Church of Christ denomination?

Please open your eyes to Romans 16:16 and see that apostle Paul called the followers of Christ "churches of Christ."

The church that Christ built (Matt. 16:1:cool: is also called "church of God" or "church of the living God" to denote co-ownership of the church because what is Christ's is God's and what is God's is Christ's (John 17:10). But the church which is the body (Col. 1:1:cool: is named after Christ, it's head (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

Ed

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

Ed: "A false teacher must have taught you that Jesus had to be God to forgive sins. The Bible does not teach this doctrine.

The Jesus who said he has the power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10) is the same Jesus who said he is a man (John 8:40) and is also the same Jesus whom God exalted to His right hand to be Prince and savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Louis: Ed, sin is ulitimatly against God and only God can forgive it. The pharisees recognized this why don't you? This is one of the many ways Jesus was showing he was God in actions. Yes, this is the same Jesus who said I am..the SAME name of God used in the OT. He also initated a new relationship with God..who can do that but God alone..no mere man can because a mere man is flawed. Why do you think that in Luke and in mark they said , "Whe does this fellow talk like that ITS BLASPHEMY!! Who can forgive sins BUT GOD ALONE." Ed, blasphy is making yourself equal to God (ie saying I AM GOD). Get it?

Louis, you are thinking like a Pharisee. You are saying that Jesus blasphemed by making himself equal to God. You and the Pharisees wrongly/b] accuse Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus n claimed he was God or equal to God.

Why can't you simply believe what the Bible says? God exalted Jesus to His right hand and gave Jesus power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). This delegation of power and authority (Matt. 28:1:cool: is binding upoin the one who delegated this power and authority. Thus, when Jesus forgives sins, it is as if God Himself forgives these sins.

Ed:"You mean Jesus is wrong because what he says in John 17:3 does not agree with your belief that Jesus is God! "

Louis:No, it agrees EXACTLY with what I said. THREE IN ONE. There is only one God expressed in three parts, each equal to each other and totally distinctive.

I'm sorry to say that you are a LIAR Louis. I have tried my best to refrain from saying this but you have been saying things that are directly contrary to what the Bible says. John 17:3 does not say that God is expressed in three parts. But you say it does.

Ed:"that Jesus says the Father is the only true God. Unless you can show me the verse which quotes Jesus as saying that he is God, then I would say that you are only making this up."

Louis:I as well as several other people have shown you..If you have ears ed, then HEAR.

You and others have not shown any verse which clearly says that Jesus is God. All you have presented are your personal interpretations or assumptions of what these verses mean.

For example, "I AM" doesn't mean Jesus is God. "I and the Father are one" doesn't mean Jesus is God. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" doesn't mean Jesus is God.
Clearly, your interpretation of these verses contradicts what Jesus clearly says in John 17:3.

Ed: "Can't you see that those who are fond of saying 'Lord, Lord' are those who believe that they are saved by faith alone?"

Louis: no ed, those are the ones WITHOUT true faith. God sees the heart you cannot fool him by saying Lord Lord. It takes true faith..that's all, not lip service. That is what that verse is saying.

Again, what you are saying is your personal interpretation of Matt. 7:21 to suit your belief. The verse is very clear: only those who do the WILL of God will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Ed:"What do you enter by Christ? "

Louis:You enter Christ by faith Ed. That is what is preached in the bible. (see your bible for details )

The question is "what" not "how". You mean you enter the physical body of Christ Louis? How can you do that by faith when Christ is in heaven?

Ed:"Entering the flock or church of Christ by him means becoming a member of the church of Christ by the doctrines taught by Christ."

Louis:No ed, the "church of christ" is mentioned NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE AND DIDN'T EXSIST UNTIL MANY MANY YEARS LATER.

Try Romans 16:16 Louis. Apostle Paul called Christ's followers, "churches of Christ. Jesus called his apostles "little flock" (Luke 12:32) and Apostler Paul called the flock "Church of Christ" which Jesus purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

[quot] Ed:"You mean Jesus is wrong again because what he says does not agree with your belief that baptism is not necessary for salvation."

Louid:Show me where it says if you are not baptised you are not saved.[/qutoe]

The Bible doesn't say precisely that "if you re not baptized you are not saved". But the Bible says that he who "believes AND is baptized" will be saved. Thus, if you "believe ONLY" but you are not baptized, you will not be saved. And if you do not believe, you are not baptized and you will be condemned.

Ed:"Do you realize that you just called Christ a false teacher? These are Christ's doctrines, not mine and you just said these doctrines are false!"

Louis:You're the false teacher ed, one of the ones The Christ and Paul warned us about. You take verses out of context, add things in and pull ideas out of the air and put verses together that don't even refer to the same topic to prove your point.

Nothing you say at this point can fool readers to deny the fact that you are a fanatic who will go to the extent of calling the doctrines of Christ false to defend your man-made doctrines.

I now realize how futile it is to discuss spiritual things with someone who only pretends to believe the Bible or picks only the verses that seem to support his beliefs.

Ed

[Josephus]

I wonder if Ed takes pleasure in ignoring my posts.

[LouisBooth]

"Louis, you are thinking like a Pharisee. You are saying that Jesus blasphemed by making himself equal to God. You and the Pharisees wrongly/b] accuse Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus n claimed he was God or equal to God."

:lol: Ed, now you're adding into the bible! I just quoted what they said, that's all. they said he blasphemed..not me ;) He WAS in actions claiming to be God.

"I have tried my best to refrain from saying this but you have been saying things that are directly contrary to what the Bible says. John 17:3 does not say that God is expressed in three parts. But you say it does. "

Ed the only one that is lying here is you. You take things out of context and you discount parts of the bible itself! Just look at John 1:18 in context. John calls Jesus God the one and only in my translation..what does it say in yours? John CLEARLY thinks that Jesus claimed to be God and it shows through in his works.

"You and others have not shown any verse which clearly says that Jesus is God. "

Yes we have, you just refuse to see the truth. These are not personal interpretations but these views have been held for hundereds of years, even by the apolstles and Jesus himself!

"For example, "I AM" doesn't mean Jesus is God. "I and the Father are one" doesn't mean Jesus is God. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" doesn't mean Jesus is God."

What do you think they mean the Ed. If I say I am one with something then I am that something. Jesus said I am one with God and hence he is saying I am God. The I am statement goes back to who God called HIMSELF in the OT. Read if for yourself.

"The verse is very clear: only those who do the WILL of God will enter the kingdom of heaven."

Yes ed, but like the other verses in the bible you have to mesh them will ALL of the bible. That's what context is. This meshes perfectly with the idea that true faith saves for doing God's will is a natural result of that. So it is true. Try again ed.

"The question is "what" not "how". You mean you enter the physical body of Christ Louis? How can you do that by faith when Christ is in heaven? "

You think we have to physically enter the body of Christ???? Now YOU are adding things into the bible ed. That is a symbolic statement. Just look at the context ed. can't you see it or have you blinded yourself to the truth?

"Try Romans 16:16 Louis. "

:lol: you pull docterine from Paul making a greeting and in only ONE verse in the WHOLE bible? Wow ed, that's like saying, I see a piece of blue grass so all the grass in the world must be blue. Second, that is a TRANSLATION. Not the actual words..so try again ;) check your greek bible for more info.

"The Bible doesn't say precisely that "if you re not baptized you are not saved". "

Exactly..case closed..thanks for saying you can't find it Ed, and being honest. I'll stick with you don't have to be baptised to be saved because I can find verses where it says if you dont' believe you are condemned and if you believe you are saved. Thanks for trying ed, better luck next time.

"I now realize how futile it is to discuss spiritual things with someone who only pretends to believe the Bible or picks only the verses that seem to support his beliefs."

If you think that ed then move on, I'll just continue to point out how your views are NOT biblical. ;)

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: Ed the only one that is lying here is you. You take things out of context and you discount parts of the bible itself! Just look at John 1:18 in context. John calls Jesus God the one and only in my translation..what does it say in yours? John CLEARLY thinks that Jesus claimed to be God and it shows through in his works.

Your version of John 1:18 (NIV) is a mistranslation or a deliberate attempt of the translators to twist what John wrote to provide Biblical support for the false doctrine that Jesus is God. This verse is not consistent with John 3:16 of the same version (NIV) which says that God gave His "one and only" son...

Other versions of John 1:18 say that "the only begotten son who is at the bosom of the Father..."

Now look at John 17:3 (NIV) and read what Jesus says. Doesn't it say that the Father is the only true God?

Clearly, John 1:18 NIV is a mistranslation because the one who is at the Father's side is NOT "God, the one and only."

Ed

[ZoneChaos]

OK, Ed...

King James Version here:

"1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Break it down. Who is the subject of the verse?

"No man hath seen God at any time" - here it is God

"the only begotten Son" - here it is the "Son".

"which is in the bosom of the Father" - here it is the Father.

First, Joyhun is referring to the same being (God) thorugh this entire verse.. that is clear. Now, this verse is a good verse to use in support of the Trinity:

First John talks about God., then refers to the Son and the Father, and yet Johnis talking about the same being here the whole time.

John is describing Jesus, the Son, and points out to the reader that No one has seen GOd, who is the begotten Son or the Father.

Later on we see John saying "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" This fits with the vers above, becasue God, who is the Father, did give His only begotten Son, who is Jesus Christ.

1x1x1=1

God (the father) gave God (the Son) to us. The Son is begotten of the Father, and both are the same God.

[Michael]

John carefully explains this relationship between man, Holy Spirit and God, later on.

John 1:32

And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

[ZoneChaos]

MIcael.. Huh? what does this have to do with anything in the topic? I am talking about who the subject of the verse was.. not about relations ships, blah blah blah.. don't try and start fires....

[LouisBooth]

Zone, it doesn't matter, he can't explain that verse at all. John chapter 1 clearly says that Jesus is God..plain and simple. Just ask a english prof..;) all inspiration aside. The words themselves speak very clearly on this. Ed and Micheal just don't wanna believe it.

[onetruechurch]

edpobre- I finally found another member of the church!!! the 3rd one. why was this guy banned????

[fortheloveofmike]

im a member of the coburg road church of Christ. i dont believe that your church has to be named (location) church of Christ for you to be saved. i know people who do believe that though. theyre silly folk.

[Aaron11]

edpobre- I finally found another member of the church!!! the 3rd one. why was this guy banned????

What church are you talking about?

[n2wolves]

the one and only the church...his church.. the church of Christ and one does not become a member but one is added to the body..being the church, with Christ as the head of his church.


NECESSITIES FOR SALVATION
The Bible says one must hear the word of God: "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). One must believe in Christ: "... if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24). Jesus said we must repent of our sins: ""I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). And we must confess Christ to be the Son of God, the good confession: "... if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10. And we must be baptized for the remission of sins, buried in baptism, for that is all baptism is, or ever has been-- a burial, where the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins. In Acts 2:38, when the first gospel sermon was preached and those there who heard, many of them, cried out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"--that is, What shall we do to be saved? Peter said, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)..

[fortheloveofmike]

the one and only the church...his church.. the church of Christ and one does not become a member but one is added to the body..being the church, with Christ as the head of his church.


by this do you mean, belong to a church that calls themselves the church of christ?

[WesleyJohn]

Does anyone but me find it ironic that posting continues in a thread in which the Opening Poster has been banned?

[WesleyJohn]

And even more so...
a thread that hasn't been posted in for two years???

Truly bizarre...

[n2wolves]

His church is not a building; its his body with him being the head of it. With the plan of salvation previously posted, which is the belief system of the church of christ..his church

[neal_taylor]

I can't post urls' yet but go to:

www dot examineiglesianicristo dot com

[xsimmsx]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote:

I'm glad you asked Zone. The Bible says that God sent His son to redeem those under the law, that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). Thus, before you can become a child of God, you have to be redeemed by the blood of Christ.

The Bible says that those who have been justified by the blood of Christ have been reconciled to God through the death of Christ (Rom. 5:10-11). Eph. 2:16 says that they were reconciled to God in one body through the cross. That one body is the church and the head is Christ (Col. 1:1:cool: . The church was purchased (redeemed) by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:2:cool: .

Gal. 4:4-5 states that before one can become an adopted child of God, one must first of all be redeemed by the blood of Christ. And the only way to be redeemed is to be INSIDE the church that Christ purchased with his own bkood.

Ed

And the only way to get into that church is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

[thaiv]

Some of this discussion is somewhat illogical. Let me explain. Once you beleive and are saved you are automatically part of the church of Christ. By this I mean you are a part of the church, which is Christ's, which belongs to Christ. This does not mean you have to go to a "church" that has the name "Church of Christ" on its bright, shining sign outside.

To say that your church is "of Christ" is just as divisive as saying, "I am of this denomination or that."